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**Micky**

When my Dreadball KS Z'Zor team arrived with a bunch of casting issues (misalligned moulds basicly) - not bad enough to ruin them, but just needing a bit more scraping and touching up than I would have liked - I was a bit miffed. A month or so later I got a look at the retail team box, and it had none of those issues.

**judgedoug**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
mantics inability to keep a high quality control and accept substandard sculpts.

Be sure to stay away from the entirety of the 15mm market.

While not my preferred game era, have you seen CB's 15mm ancients? or the above meier sculpts? but overall I agree 15mm would benefit from more high quality infantry, vehicles have become increasingly better to a rather good standard at present.

But both do not justify how bad Zee is sculpted its a 28mm scale so 1/54? scale model not a 15mm scale so 1/110 scale miniature.

So you argue that a 28mm sculpt of a child, which would be 15mm tall, should have the same level of detail as a 28mm figure, despite every appendage and feature being half the size?

The Zee is the size of a 15mm figure and is above average quality for the 15mm market (hell, the fact there's individual fingers and not a flesh-mitt puts it above a sizable portion of current offerings). Now don't mistake what I'm saying; yes, there are superior 15mm sculpts. Just as Mierce makes the best 28mm sculpts and Antenociti's Workshop makes the best sci fi vehicles. Does it mean no one should buy any other 15's or 28's? If that's the case, I'm screwed, since I already own most of Mierce's figures and almost every Antenociti's Workshop vehicle, and apparently no one would ever buy a Khornemower, Chaos Zoid, or Empire Soldier Monkeyman. I don't even _like_ the Zee, and I'm not getting any. But it's absurd to say the model lacks detail when it is more detailed than the majority of comparably sized models.

Welcome to the vast majority of 15mm:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NAVARRO wrote:

Be sure to talk about something you actually have a clue.

That is not only entirely inaccurate (20 years of miniatures collecting and probably 2000 lbs of lead alone) but incredibly impolite. Reported.

**PsychoticStorm**

judgedoug wrote:

So you argue that a 28mm sculpt of a child, which would be 15mm tall, should have the same level of detail as a 28mm figure, despite every appendage and feature being half the size?

Of course, what did you expect? the scale gives what is and is not accepted as detail not the size, if a model is 28mm "scale" then there is a minimum accepted detail it should have on it, 15mm models have less detail on them because they are supposed to represent a smaller scale model not because they are 15mm, if mantic could not pull off a decent detailed small model for the scale they should either hire somebody who could do it or not attempt it at all.

For the record the models you showed have better formed hands than the Zees and they are tinier than them.

**Agamemnon2**

The picture of the Zees is so bad that I can't see how a fair assessment of the quality can possibly be made based on it. What I can make out is aesthetically unpleasing and not worth anyone's money, but I wish to see a better one to be able to confidently dismiss them entirely.

**Krinsath**

PsychoticStorm wrote:

Of course, what did you expect? the scale gives what is and is not accepted as detail not the size, if a model is 28mm "scale" then there is a minimum accepted detail it should have on it, 15mm models have less detail on them because they are supposed to represent a smaller scale model not because they are 15mm, if mantic could not pull off a decent detailed small model for the scale they should either hire somebody who could do it or not attempt it at all.

For the record the models you showed have better formed hands than the Zees and they are tinier than them.

I have to completely disagree with your logic there. The scale does nothing to determine the level of detail that's acceptable on a model. The scale does one thing; it establishes the baseline for size measurements so you can tell what's a small thing and what's a large thing (generally referring to the average human height). That's really all it ever does.

The actual size of the model has more to do with what level of detailing is acceptable than anything else. Following from that comes "what do competitor models look like that are a similar size?" There's a reason you don't compare Ogres to Goblins across lines, because the *size* of the models matters.

Taking your argument in the other direction, a model that was a truescale Space Marine that was just as detailed as Games Workshop's would be rightly viewed as a lesser sculpt because it failed to take advantage of the increased size. A vehicle that was detailed to the same level as the Space Marine kit would also be viewed negatively, because it too failed to do anything with the additional space provided. You need not add detail for the sake of detail, a sin Games Workshop frequently commits, but the absence of details that could be there such as defined molding around the armor joints or crisper detail on the treads would be received poorly, and justly so.

As the space decreases, the level of difficulty on details goes up simply because there's less canvas to work with. A smaller model, such as a Gretchen, is not expected to be as detailed as an Ork Boy or Tau Fire Warrior largely because of this fact. They're both 28mm, so by your viewpoint they should all be equally detailed. They're not, so clearly they are failures? No, that simply isn't the case at all. Though I can concede that from what we've seen the Gretchen do a far better job of being characterful than the Zees do, that's not "detailing" as much as it is "look at the random crap we stuck on them!"

Now, even with all of that said, the picture shown is not the most promising thing ever and I share many of your reservations. However, given Mantic's singular ability to photograph models in the worst possible way, I will reserve judgement until I see more. A lot of their range looks quite awful in their official photos and then no where near that bad once they're out. They're not always "good" but I find they fall into the realm of "average" which is the trade-off you're going for when you want something for less than what the rest of the market is charging. The Zees cost between ~$1.50 (faction BOGOF booster pack) and $3 (single faction booster); you're not looking at the type of money Mierce or Kingdom Death want for their models here.

**Lansirill**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
judgedoug wrote:

So you argue that a 28mm sculpt of a child, which would be 15mm tall, should have the same level of detail as a 28mm figure, despite every appendage and feature being half the size?

Of course, what did you expect? the scale gives what is and is not accepted as detail not the size, if a model is 28mm "scale" then there is a minimum accepted detail it should have on it, 15mm models have less detail on them because they are supposed to represent a smaller scale model not because they are 15mm, if mantic could not pull off a decent detailed small model for the scale they should either hire somebody who could do it or not attempt it at all.

For the record the models you showed have better formed hands than the Zees and they are tinier than them.

I look forward to your incredibly detailed 54mm ants and your featureless 6mm aircraft carriers.

**PsychoticStorm**

You are not required to agree with my logic, I thought we are individuals.

In any case, I am expecting a certain level of detail from "28mm" miniatures even of they are 15mm tall, what Zees deliver is not average is bellow average.

54mm true scale ants, really? should I feel lucky you didn't ask for bacteria? I ahve seen people missing the point, the topic or the reason, but never all together.

**Krinsath**

His point is taking your argument to the extremes. If you are saying that the scale determines the detail level, then a 54mm ant would have to be very well-detailed indeed because 54mm is a fairly large scale. Also, an aircraft carrier should have no details at 6mm because it's such a tiny scale. Except that in both cases the opposite would be true; the ant would be microscopic as ants are in reality tiny and impossible to have detail while an aircraft carrier is a huge object so plenty of detail is available to be added despite the scale. However, that's going back to the point that scale determines nothing in terms of detail.

If you want to say "I have my expectations of what is to be done for these models" that's fine; to present it as a fact that a model's level of detail is determined by scale is entirely incorrect. Presented as "these models do not meet my expectations" is expressing an opinion and people will then disagree with you, and at that point you're truly into matters of personal taste where you will simply agree to disagree. To present something that objectively wrong (i.e. - that scale determines detail) as your justification for your opinion will cause people to point out that such a thing is indeed wrong.

It need not change your opinion, but hopefully it entices you to either re-evaluate your opinions or find a stronger justification if you wish to sway others (or you could just say "I don't like them for reasons" and move on). That is the point of a discussion, after all.

**PsychoticStorm**

A model in scale represents what you would see normally at some distance away, so you can expect some "loss of detail" according to intended scale, but models of the same scale should have the same level of detail regardless of height, that been said any defense of the Zees fingers is unacceptable in my eyes.

**Krinsath**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
A model in scale represents what you would see normally at some distance away, so you can expect some "loss of detail" according to intended scale, but models of the same scale should have the same level of detail regardless of height

And that is the fallacy that the extreme examples provided illustrate; the size of the model, which is informed by but not dictated by, its scale is the key determiner of detail. A larger model of the same quality will almost always have more detail than a smaller model. Are there exceptions where they can be equal? Sure, but generally when there was a very large model that's been reduced to merely a large model. Going from small to smaller is going to invariably lose detail.

Scale does not play into that equation outside of comparison to the norm. If an object is bigger than human height, it should be larger than the scale height and more detailed. If it is smaller than a human it will be less than the scale height, and less detail would be expected. That's all the scale does; it informs the viewer of the object's dimensions in relationship to something else. It has nothing to do with detail directly. You seem to be set on your, in my opinion, erroneous belief that the scale matters more than size so we're just belaboring that point now. If you're happy with that belief, you go for it. I think anyone who was unsure can make their own judgement from the information we've brought out.

On the topic of the Zees, I don't disagree with your concerns. However, they remain concerns because the data presented is woefully inadequate to begin screaming about the imminent collapse of the sky. It could be falling, and it could be fine. I reserve my determination until better data is available.

**PsychoticStorm**

Their competitors do better, the size is not an excuse and the scale in not an excuse, that's my reasoning without much "fluff" in it.

**darkPrince010**

I'm not getting why this is such a difficult concept.

If you have a tool that allows you to engrave details on a model of no smaller than, for the purpose of this argument, 1mm, you can ideally fit 15 of these details adjacent to each other vertically on a 15mm model, 28 of them on a 28mm model, and 54 on a 54mm model. The difference between model scales is not as a result of the engraver skill (Indeed, the detail you seem to be asking for would require a microscope and tools normally used to engrave biblical passages on rice grains), but rather as a limitation of the space available.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the "competitors that do better" have been previously pointed out to be from the widely-considered best 15mm sculptor available and cost significantly more even discounting the KS exclusive price. You don't see me comparing and complaining about my Ford next to a Ferrari

**BobtheInquisitor**

Does all that argumentation make the zees look any less crappy? Details, schmetails; they're just plain boring models, both in content and quality.

**darkPrince010**

And I would level the same verdict on the vast majority of the 15mm range on offer for similar prices. However, objecting due to personal views on aesthetics is completely different then being annoyed at physical impossibilities.

**PsychoticStorm**

Since when their competitors are the 15mm companies? their competitors are companies that do "28mm" sculpts and they do good job at making small models with details.

Sorry the Zees are too soft and too unformed, the fact that some companies in 15mm do a batter job is just to add salt into wounds.

**Barzam**

Ugh, I think it's about time we had a MOD move things along here. I think we can all agree that the one Zee looked like he is still WIP and that the picture isn't the best. Let's move on now.

Anyway, Mantic put up a new update today and included three new Plague pictures: Teraton, mortar & crew, and Plague Swarm. The new picture of the Plague Swarm gave a lot fo the details better than previous ones. It didn't look like a pile of leaves anymore. Details are very well sculpted on the mortar crew and the Teraton as well. Plus, the mutations to the Teraton make him look like a dragon, which is pretty cool. I'm a little disappointed now that I didn't go for the Plague booster, but I've still got round two, so I'll probably grab it then.

**PsychoticStorm**

They indeed look kinda better than before.

**RiTides**

That terraton is sweeeeet! Plague mortar crew... just ugh.

**Alpharius**

Barzam wrote:
Ugh, I think it's about time we had a MOD move things along here. I think we can all agree that the one Zee looked like he is still WIP and that the picture isn't the best. Let's move on now.

Yes, I'll make that official - let's move on please!

At least until the next round of Zee sculpts/pictures are shown!

Latest full update:

It’s all in ruins!
Update #102 · Jul 16, 2013 · 21 comments

After last time’s shiny photos of the Rebs, we’ve got some scenery today and ok, go on, some Plague shots too!

Let’s do this.

The Ruined Battlezone has turned out fantastically - we think with our sculptor doing a great job of creating a selection of characterful pieces that turns your clean and shiny sci-fi city into a hollow, desolate, destroyed urban landscape, with broken wall and floor sections as well as piles of rubble for your gaming table.

Here’s Stew with more…

Ruined BattleZone

- Contains 4 x Ruins sprues and 1 x 48-piece connector sprue.

- The pieces in the top right join together to make a standalone pile of rubble that provides excellent cover.

- The similar rubble piece in the bottom right is designed to sit against a wall and works as a connector to hold the wall tiles together.

- These pieces can be used to make complete bombed-out buildings, or can be combined with the other BattleZones to add battle-damage to the edges of larger structures.

NOTE: All sprue designs are awaiting final confirmation from our factory, so there may some slight tweaks still to come, but we will ensure that you can still build just as much with them!

I think the opportunity to add these ruined sections to your Core World Buildings is a very enticing prospect making your tiles go further!
Oops!

There’s been a fair bit of discussion regarding the Fortifications sprue and the corner pieces…

It seems we made a mistake on the diagram only listing one corner piece - you get three Fortification sprues in a Battlezone (plus a Defence Line sprue) meaning you’d only get three corner pieces, which isn’t enough for a fortified bunker. Oops, sorry about that!

Well, after some jiggery pokery, we’ve fixed our diagram and added the additional Corner Piece, so there are now two per sprue (and Six per Battlezone!)

Some of you have also queried why the Defence Line sprue is part of the Fortifications Battlezone.

Well, the components from the Defence Line Sprue right from when we announced it as a stretch goal were going to be included on the Fortification sprue – in other words you were always going to get the Defence Line components as part of the Fortifications Battlezone.

As we started sculpting it however, it became apparent that we’d be able to produce a better product if we took the barricades and burst laser off and put them on a separate sprue. This then allowed us to add more fortification components to the other sprue, and stops you getting a gun on every single sprue, which would be rather a waste. The same logic applies to the Landing Pad sprue - the deflector pieces would have needed a sprue to themselves to allow the landing pad to do everything we wanted it to, but would have had very limited use anywhere except the edges of a landing pad. The Defence Line pieces fill exactly the same role but with many more uses on top. The flexibility and variation that tooling the set this way generates is by far and away better than what we could have done otherwise!

In addition, the initial playtesting of this game was done using almost exclusively barricades. Jake's plan was always to have lots of them in the game - low level cover makes for far more interesting tactical gameplay. The Defence Line sprue is now available in two BattleZones, and in both cases works perfectly on its own to provide this cover even if you don't want to combine it with the other tiles.
... Sniff. Uh Oh!

And finally – yep, it’s time for the Plague!

Here are three of the models from the Plague Booster set - the Plague Teraton, Plague Swarm and the Plague Mortar with crew.

Let us know what think in the comments!

Don't know what's worse about contracting this Plague - the zombification, or the stretched torso/tiny leg syndrome!

**Dysartes**

I do like the mutated Teraton, he's pretty cool.

**Krinsath**

Alpharius wrote:

Don't know what's worse about contracting this Plague - the zombification, or the stretched torso/tiny leg syndrome!

Look at the bright side; there are obviously already clothing shops on hand for you to loot with appropriately out-of-proportion clothes to still give you a near-tailored fit!

Oddly enough, this is the detail that bothers me much more than anything else. I can accept a mutating disease making your proportions non-human, especially since it's a fairly consistent alteration among the specimens we've seen. That it mutates your clothes too stretches that suspension just a bit too much.

Still, I don't mind them as much as others they've shown.

**highlord tamburlaine**

The update was posted on the Deadzone thread in the Mantic section.

The plague leaf pile looks a lot better. I like the leaping centipede thing.

I know we'll probably have to get an extra plague teraton or two in my house.

Might have to grab a ruin battlezone now as well. I like the free standing rubble idea.

Thinking about that rubble, what would be neat would be some different accessory sprues further down the line- I'd love to see a debris sprue for example.

**judgedoug**

The Teraton is GREAT. The plague dudes... technically they are fine sculpts, but I do not like the aesthetic.

I want heavy on Enforcers, though, to the tune of like platoons worth of them.

**Barzam**

I actually like the mortar crew, distended shirt, jacket and all. At least the sculptor took the time to show that their clothes didn't completely fit following the mutation. I mean, look at his sleeves, they've ripped apart as his arms extended. Their pants, too. That Teraton though, that thing is going to look great painted up like the G1 Plague.

**Bolognesus**

...I'm thinking those mortar dudes might actually be pretty cool after a leg swap (maybe at last something catachan bits can be good for?

) - same for all the 2nd/3rd gen stuff.
I dislike having to convert stuff to make it 'work' for what it was basically meant for but I might put the effort into it to do so, still.

**plastictrees**

So do all of these guys mutate exactly the same way, or do they just put the ones that look like they were outsourced through time and space to late 90s Gary Morely on mortar duty?
"Sorry, Steve, your mutation is just not particularly convincing, here's a coat that three children used to use to sneak into R rated movies, you're a mortar mutie now!"

**Compel**

I think perhaps, as far as the Plague 3rd generation are concerned, they're taking The Incredible Hulk as inspiration for the mutations.

**Krinsath**

plastictrees wrote:So do all of these guys mutate exactly the same way, or do they just put the ones that look like they were outsourced through time and space to late 90s Gary Morely on mortar duty?
"Sorry, Steve, your mutation is just not particularly convincing, here's a coat that three children used to use to sneak into R rated movies, you're a mortar mutie now!"

Well, again from what I can see the Plague models all have that very inverted triangle shape to their bodies. The difference is the 1st and 2nd Generation have massively bulked out shoulders so you really don't notice the body shape as much.

The picture below shows the shape of the G1 and how it's the same aesthetic if you ignore the shoulders (which is admittedly hard to do). You can also see that his hand is pretty readily larger the size of his head, which would be another trait the 3rd gens share.

Spoiler:

So there's a bit of internal consistency to the aesthetic. Whether or not it's a GOOD aesthetic is up to the individual of course.

**plastictrees**

I wouldn't have guessed that those miniatures were from the same line let alone faction.
Really poor work on the mortar team. I'm not sure why people keep saying that their legs are tiny, clearly they have ridiculous stretched torsos. Just seems like a lazy representation of the way they appear to be intended to mutate based on the G1.

**highlord tamburlaine**

I hope that mortar ends up based, or I'll do it myself. It's either all or nothing for me.

Has there ever been word if things like artillery follow geenral rules rather than faction- specific ones?

So if my Forge Fathers take out that mortar crew, could they then stand to man it themselves?