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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Not a moan, but I look at those stats, those rules and think... Damn, death company got shafted! They pretty much have the exact rule set that suits death company perfectly. The only thing I would change is the effect on the long fangs/veterens. I'd reverse it for death company, so the vets are more susceptible to falling. Oh, and a full armour save in exchange for the super charged melee weapons.

Eh, I wouldn't say completely shafted, but the amount of love Space Wolves get is stupid.

You really feel the love with their names don't you? At least nobody endlessly mocks it.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Sigh... looks like my Wolves are going to jump the shark yet again.

   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

So, a wulfen strike 2 times ? When he fight at his initiative 5, and when he dies (except if he dies first, in this case he fight only once, when he dies) ?

Correct.



Yee Gods. Ok these guys just got seriously better.....

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut





Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???

 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

lonewolf81 wrote:
Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???


No.

edit: Actually, I re-read it. Yes, you can since it happens at the end of the current step.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/01 18:41:38


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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





It says nothing about IC's. It's an area of effect random table rule for other Space Wolf units nearby.

http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5956&stc=1

As an aside... damn it, GW, I don't want more random tables.


ICs are probably covered by "all non-vehicle Space Wolves units".
   
Made in us
Hierarch





 pretre wrote:
lonewolf81 wrote:
Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???


No.


Are you sure? It certainly seems that they do, seeing as it specifically says at the END of the initiative step in which they die. So, tgey strike and die, then at the end of that step do it again.

 Tamereth wrote:

We'll take your Magnus leak and raise you plastic sisters, take that internet.
 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





lonewolf81 wrote:
Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???
I'm going to say "yes", because it specifically says "at the end of the current Initiative step", which means after both sides have fought at Ini 1, the Initiative step comes to an end and the dead Wulfen fights again. The only way to kill a Wulfen and stop him fighting twice is to have a higher Ini.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Justyn wrote:
It says nothing about IC's. It's an area of effect random table rule for other Space Wolf units nearby.

http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5956&stc=1

As an aside... damn it, GW, I don't want more random tables.


ICs are probably covered by "all non-vehicle Space Wolves units".
We were talking about whether IC's could join the unit, I believe Ghaz was questioning whether "Curse of the Wulfen" would prevent IC's from joining (and thus preventing certain special characters joinging up to have movement shenanigans with Bounding Lope).

Also I find it sad that we have so many Special Rules now in 40k that they had to call it "Bounding Lope" instead of "Bounding Leap" which is already owned by Hormagants

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/01 18:49:54


 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

I literally cannot wait to see what BS excuses SW players come up with to try and claim that these guys are anything but massively OP...


Oh, and yet another convenient theft of a Chaos toy... Daemons used to be the guys who got cheap at-initiative ap2 ccws. Now SW's get better and cheaper versions because, "reasons".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/01 18:51:15


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Rob, thanks for the pics
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





CHEESE
CHEESE
cheese every where. On a more serious note shoot the fethers a lot and a lot more and again just to be sure.
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut





I think the WD states that deamons will get psychic powers, relics and warlord traits and wolves will get only company specific formations.

 
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

Justyn wrote:
It says nothing about IC's. It's an area of effect random table rule for other Space Wolf units nearby.

http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5956&stc=1

As an aside... damn it, GW, I don't want more random tables.


ICs are probably covered by "all non-vehicle Space Wolves units".


units of Wulfen are not affected by the curse of the wulfen table (the same for fenrisian wolves)
So an IC joining the unit does not benefit from the chart, the same for an IC joining a unit of fenrisian wolves

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Experiment 626 wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Not a moan, but I look at those stats, those rules and think... Damn, death company got shafted! They pretty much have the exact rule set that suits death company perfectly. The only thing I would change is the effect on the long fangs/veterens. I'd reverse it for death company, so the vets are more susceptible to falling. Oh, and a full armour save in exchange for the super charged melee weapons.


I think it's even more groan worthy when you realise that these rules would be an even better fit for Possessed.


Yep, can't complain with that argument. I mean the wulfen game mechanics do make sense, I don't disagree with them fluff wise, but the same sort of force multiplying mechanics would be great with other units too, possessed and death company are great examples of that. Heck, terminators as well in vanilla marines, knobs in orks, scions in guard.

I don't think it would be unreasonable for each army to have an elite unit that acts as a force multiplier of some sort, as long as the rules were vastly different.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/01 19:27:04


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Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Whilst I have no real love for more randomly determined tables.....ye gods theres some pretty OTT stuff going on there. #6 on the kill chart? Did terminators just make a comeback?


Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

The situation looks OP until you break it down a bit.

Wulfen with claws are 42 points each. And yes its scary. 5-7 S6 ap2 attacks on the charge is pretty damn scary. However, they are only T4 and a 4+ save. Anything S8 or better (and lets face it, there is a lot of that) is going to drop a guy per shot (save cover). Heck, the humble missile launcher has just made a come back. It will be the classic problem of killing too much on the charge. These guys are probably going to totally wipe out whatever they hit thus leaving themselves wide open for counter shooting. And did I mention that they are 42 points each for the best toys?

As for the curse chart, the best buffs are only on a 6 and the guys you really want to benefit from them are 6" range. So, unless your castled up I cant see the buffs being handed out like candy. These guys really do seem pretty balanced, especially given what has already transpired over the last few codexs.

Yes there will be the perfect storm where your TWC with attached Wolf Lord get Reckless Fury right before smashing into something, but they are 5 times more than likely to get one of the other results which really wont help them at all. Add too it that the most valuable time for a roll on the Kill chart would be on the turn you charge, but alas you can't get it there, so in that regard its pretty self limiting too. In fact the kill chart isn't all that useful except probably to a unit of "claws" that are already engaged. Any one of those results will greatly help turn the combat and you could easily get the Wulfen with in 12" and "Claw" units can be large so more models will benefit from the result.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/01 21:09:48


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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




OP or not, isn't it kind of dumb for a 42 point Space Wolf to be basically better in all ways than a 75 point Herald of Khorne? The Herald has +2 WS and a Mastercrafted Weapon, but is a wash on the other stats and has Furious Charge and Fear instead of Rage, Counter Attack, ATSKNF, Bounding Leap, Shred, and Death Frenzy. FNP and 5+ Invuln are about the same but the Wulfen get 4+ Armour also...
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Jayden tell that to my nids or deamons or orks or dark eldar. With there speed they will catch a unit and kill it. And of course people will put presience and or invis on them they are just plain nasty+.
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





I was pretty sure a herald of khorne was higher initiative than 5, but not 100%. Also thought ws7, but once again unsure. Or are the wulfen ws5?

Heralds have "access" to rage, hatred, potential instant death, juggernauts, one turn use count a charge dice as a 6, and buff any unit they join with their Locus abilities.. but yes there is quite a disparity there in terms of face wreckage. Can't really claim psychic support either as that is possible with both codices of the units in question.

Daemons need a good reworking, but I think we'll have to wait awhile.. This seems like just a bandaid for us. I hope we see more units like wulfen in the future though, their rules look useful, fun, and kinda balanced.

7500 pts Chaos Daemons 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Oh, you're right, +1 Init and 1 more WS on the Heralds (they're WS7, Wolfen WS4). Not sure how I messed that up. And yes, you can add to them, but those additions aren't cheap, and you can't reasonably get more than 2 or 3.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/01 21:20:39


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

Skullhammer wrote:
Jayden tell that to my nids or deamons or orks or dark eldar. With there speed they will catch a unit and kill it. And of course people will put presience and or invis on them they are just plain nasty+.


That is the problem. They catch a unit, kill it, then die next turn. I know where my Tankbusta boys will be firing next turn. I have how many Dark lances in my DE list, blastmasters in my Emperors Children? As for any of the other 7.5 codexs isn't D weapons a common thing now? Its no different than how I've killed countless units of death company over the years. S8 to knock out FNP and hopefully ap3 or better to ruin armor saves. These guys will drop.

You just have to know what your willing to sacrifice.

As for invisibility or other psychic buffs that are not natively available to SW psychers.... thats a problem with the game, not this unit. And I agree, its a big problem, but its a core game balance problem, not a unit specific one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/01 21:21:23


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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Skullhammer wrote:
Jayden tell that to my nids or deamons or orks or dark eldar. With there speed they will catch a unit and kill it. And of course people will put presience and or invis on them they are just plain nasty+.


Totally agree with this. Good to see GW continues to make ridiculous rules to sell the new, albeit very awful looking, models. I keep holding my breath for new Chaos Marines but after seeing how they've handled the AOS Chaos stuff, I should be careful what I wish for.
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

I bet that Khorne Daemonkin will get an update before CSM will get one (to be fair, there is a chance that Daemonkin will get an update together with Daemons in this book)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




Meh. People keep freaking out about OP new Assault units and then they realize unless they're moving 12" a turn with Psychic Support and 3++ and at least T5, no one actually uses them in games.

A T4 unit with 4+, no Move Through Cover, no Fleet for runs, and no Invuln unless you shell out +20 points for the model? Sounds like prime candidate for getting stuck in cover and then dying to something like TFCs or Scatbikes.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

I think at least a few SSs are going to be needed if these guys are going to live. While it doesn’t get a lot of press, there is a reasonable amount of AP4 stuff out there.

Fist time a squad of Wulfen gets erased by HBs, there’s going to be a lot of laughs...

   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Requizen wrote:
Meh. People keep freaking out about OP new Assault units and then they realize unless they're moving 12" a turn with Psychic Support and 3++ and at least T5, no one actually uses them in games.

A T4 unit with 4+, no Move Through Cover, no Fleet for runs, and no Invuln unless you shell out +20 points for the model? Sounds like prime candidate for getting stuck in cover and then dying to something like TFCs or Scatbikes.


Except that Wulfen can run & charge in the same turn. Not seeing how "getting there" is going to be problematic for these guys since they effective have old school Fleet of Foot.

and yeah, the unit is utterly bonkers and is a massive flip of the bird to Chaos in general. About the only real 'counter' is the always abusive Invis on Seekers/Str.D 'Thirster, or just tarpit the damn thing with a re-rolled 2++ Tzeentch unit.
Chaos Marines on the other hand can just go home. (not that that's really anything new for them! )

Consider that a Khorne Herald w/Killing Blow axe + Rage Locus alone is 85pts. He skyrockets to 130pts if you slap him on a Juggernaught.
And yet SW players think that just shy of 45pts a pop is fair for these guys?! Give me a break. You can just blindly throw these guys at whatever the hell you want dead and they'll kill it - even SH's/GMC's will pee themselves, thanks to their frankly insulting ability to double attack/still attack when killed!

If this was a Chaos or Xenos unit, we all know that there'd be no discussion - it would be outright declared OP and rightly so. But, Imperial bias is biased.

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Meh. People keep freaking out about OP new Assault units and then they realize unless they're moving 12" a turn with Psychic Support and 3++ and at least T5, no one actually uses them in games.

A T4 unit with 4+, no Move Through Cover, no Fleet for runs, and no Invuln unless you shell out +20 points for the model? Sounds like prime candidate for getting stuck in cover and then dying to something like TFCs or Scatbikes.


Except that Wulfen can run & charge in the same turn. Not seeing how "getting there" is going to be problematic for these guys since they effective have old school Fleet of Foot.

and yeah, the unit is utterly bonkers and is a massive flip of the bird to Chaos in general. About the only real 'counter' is the always abusive Invis on Seekers/Str.D 'Thirster, or just tarpit the damn thing with a re-rolled 2++ Tzeentch unit.
Chaos Marines on the other hand can just go home. (not that that's really anything new for them! )

Consider that a Khorne Herald w/Killing Blow axe + Rage Locus alone is 85pts. He skyrockets to 130pts if you slap him on a Juggernaught.
And yet SW players think that just shy of 45pts a pop is fair for these guys?! Give me a break. You can just blindly throw these guys at whatever the hell you want dead and they'll kill it - even SH's/GMC's will pee themselves, thanks to their frankly insulting ability to double attack/still attack when killed!

If this was a Chaos or Xenos unit, we all know that there'd be no discussion - it would be outright declared OP and rightly so. But, Imperial bias is biased.


What bias? I play strictly Chaos and Xenos.

Move + Run isn't the same as being on a Thunderwolf or Bike, especially in cover. The average move is 9" in the open, 6" in cover. As long as the opponent isn't standing still, that's not as big of a deal as people think it is. Rerolling charge is great, but Overwatch still exists, and Heavy Flamers get d3 free hits that ignore their Armor.

They're a strong Assault unit - honestly a really strong one. But so are lots of other things that don't get taken because, guess what, Assault isn't that strong on anything that doesn't have massive defensive capabilities. There are very few (any??) squishy but powerful Assault units that are competitively used.

For the price of 5 of these guys with Frost Claws, you can get 23 Daemonettes! They're nearly as fast (probably moreso over a couple turns due to the extra Run distance and Fleet), and have way more attacks all with Rending! And they all have 5++ which can get buffed, and that's more than double the wounds! Or you could trade some for Characters with AP2 weapons and all the same great rules! OP! Or 17 Seekers, which is still more Wounds and Attacks but way the hell faster!

But no one takes Daemonettes because foot Assault units without amazing saves don't really work. Wulfen may be tougher and better in Assault, but that doesn't change the fact that they're going to melt to shooting before they ever get where they're going.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





So you didnt notice the dedicated assault transport they have which deamons/nids dont have or the fact its a flyer and deamons have 2 s8+ shooting attacks in the whole dex one no one takes as its expencive one shot with gaurd bs the other they get armour against. And nids have 2 as well only one of which will be any use (heavy ven cannon).
They are very strong but what pushes them over (for me) is still attacking when they die even if they attacked already thats just nuts.

Sorry for the rant.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




But that flier is overcosted and you dont see it in any competitive lists. Requizen is right- yes they are a good close combat unit and have the double attack which is nice if you get to close combat something like a knight or MC which would eat the squad- however, how many wulfen will make it into combat against a shooty army.... 1-2 maybe? Certainly against competitive Eldar list or Tau list, zero will make it into combat. Well if they are shooting at the wulfen, they cant be shooting at other units right- well that's true, but wulfen aren't cheap so their shooting is justified. Wulfen are good, Thunderwolves are more resilient and faster and can have characters tanking in front. Now, if you could take them in squads less than 5 and they werent bulky you could put them in drop pods with characters in termie armor to tank for them, then let them run wild, but min size is 5 with bulky so no tanking. Space Wolves in my opinion needed more mid range shooting in an environment where shooting is king- instead they got a close combat squad similar to one they already had. Super, but it isn't going to really change the competitive lists.

The augmenting other units while great on the outside has some flaws. First, its a random table so you may not roll anything that helps you that round. Next, look at the range. Bloodclaws get the most advantages at 12 inches, but they dont get increased attacks as they have rage, and you are still dealing with units no one took as bloodclaws of all variants are WS/BS 3. All other units are 6 inches. To me (and I wont state that I am a 40k expert, but if you are taking a unit which is very vulnerable to large blasts (Wulfen) and are on foot, the worst thing I could do was put a bunch of other units within 6 inches of them, that is just asking to get pummeled by all sorts of templates. Tau, Eldar, IG even would have a field day. Now, are some armies more vulnerable to wulfen than others, sure, most of the armies that havent been updated- but again, I would bet that Eldar, Tau, Necrons and even SM and DA are still going to do more than okay against SW with wulfen, its certainly not going to upset any power rankings.

Now maybe some of the formations give them options to outflank or infiltrate- something to get them closer to combat and that will change things, but right now, rule for rule, I would still stick with TWC and Iron Priests with Thunderhammers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/01 23:33:25


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




Skullhammer wrote:
So you didnt notice the dedicated assault transport they have which deamons/nids dont have or the fact its a flyer and deamons have 2 s8+ shooting attacks in the whole dex one no one takes as its expencive one shot with gaurd bs the other they get armour against. And nids have 2 as well only one of which will be any use (heavy ven cannon).
They are very strong but what pushes them over (for me) is still attacking when they die even if they attacked already thats just nuts.

Sorry for the rant.


You mean the transport that means they don't come in until T2 or later, and can't charge until T3 or later, which can also get blown up, which does damage to them and leaves them helpless on foot?

Assault vehicles are in the game. You don't see Assault Marines, Death Company, or other Assault foot deathstars allying in the Stormwolf because it's good.
   
 
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