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 crimsondave wrote:
Several of us IG players have agreed that conscripts need nerfed. However, the whiners here aren't going to be happy unless they are turned into complete trash. Cutting their firepower in HALF is LITERALLY not good enough for you.

Don't worry. If Marines are truly getting curb stomped by IG on a regular basis GW won't let it last.

Shockingly, the unit whose players have attested would still be taken if they had literally zero firepower and cost the same probably won't be fixed solely by reducing their firepower. Because the larger issue is they are far too hard to remove for their cost.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Ah, yeah, jumping around from thread to thread over the course of a week destroys context haha. My own personal crusade is to find a list of Craftworld Eldar that can beat conscripts on cost. 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights is 401 points. I want a list, I don't care how tailored, that can beat that for the same points cost. At this point I'll up it to anything <500 points, because no list has been remotely close so far.

Ah, ok. This sounds familiar now, something like a 4x4 board too, right? I'll give it some more thought, but that's pretty specific. Is there a turn limit?

Side note, I just noticed Shuriken Cannons are Assault Weapons, that's kinda neat.

SilverAlien wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Several of us IG players have agreed that conscripts need nerfed. However, the whiners here aren't going to be happy unless they are turned into complete trash. Cutting their firepower in HALF is LITERALLY not good enough for you.

Don't worry. If Marines are truly getting curb stomped by IG on a regular basis GW won't let it last.

Shockingly, the unit whose players have attested would still be taken if they had literally zero firepower and cost the same probably won't be fixed solely by reducing their firepower. Because the larger issue is they are far too hard to remove for their cost.

So you would rather I take 4 units of 10 regular guard instead? I could deploy them as a meat shield out of coherency where you couldn't lock them all up. Would that not make up for the extra 10 points and 10 models? Not to mention they hit 50% instead of 33%. If firepower is not the issue, then the problem is all IG infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
"Can you concede that conscripts dont damage vehicles very well? "

I never commented on that. Ever. Conscripts don't kill much outside 12" that well in general. That's not my concern. It's all about taking up space and being THE tarpit in the game. The offense is just a cherry on top. They are so cheap that they could not shoot at all and still be effective.

"Cutting their firepower in HALF is LITERALLY not good enough for you. "

Read my above comment. Understand what they are are being used for and what their true power is.

Alright. At least we can agree on that. Yeah I totally think that the primary use for conscripts is as a wall against deep striking/assault. IIRC one of the tourney lists we saw seemed to attest to that.

For what it is worth I didn't care about their offensive power, making them easier to kill will impact their offensive power to manageable levels.

Not at all they are super flexible unit and priced right on the money.

I will continue to use them because players haven't found a good counter against a shooting horde army. I think players for the most part hyper focus on them without changing tactics what so ever.

Meanwhile IG may be the most flexible army out there.

I mean I never see trios of Whirlwinds or Thunderfire cannons on the table, nor tiny jump assault units that could make a real mess for my conscripts.

Once Conscripts get nerfed, then Rough Riders will because they are another gem in the IG codex.

I have heard nothing good about rough riders.

They are phenomenal, in my play style at least. And darn cool too. I think they are overlooked mainly and no one bothers with them due to lack of easy to collect models on the market. Once they make a new series of kits, people will unlock thier awesome power and that will be next unit people complain about.

I think 40k is about masses of plastic due to $$ GW can collect so I'll embrace that for my part.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - most lists don't have snipers. Why? Because snipers suck. The ones that do have snipers - you just park a tank to block LOS - stand farther away from said snipers . . . . [and so forth]

Right. But, Rangers are a decent Troops choice for Eldar, and a Farseer with Doom (which is an amazing power) is sort of a no-brainer thing to have around, as far as I can tell. These are points not spent to take out conscripts, from what I'm seeing. These are points spent because you're playing Eldar in the first place. Every turn they don't spend shooting at Commissars is a turn they can do something else. From my perspective, you're threatening Commissar-sniping almost for free, by their mere presence.

Like I said previously, I don't think it's a full solution. But I think it's a good move to make, regardless.

Ah, yeah, jumping around from thread to thread over the course of a week destroys context haha. My own personal crusade is to find a list of Craftworld Eldar that can beat conscripts on cost. 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights is 401 points. I want a list, I don't care how tailored, that can beat that for the same points cost. At this point I'll up it to anything <500 points, because no list has been remotely close so far.

Best I can think of is Storm Guardians w/ flamers in Waveserpents playing slowly. It takes about 5 turns for conscripts to down a single serpent, so the serpents either stay out of rapid fire range, or repeatedly shoot-charge to prevent FRFSRF for 4 turns. They can kill roughly 8 conscripts per turn then unload the guardians on turn 5 to kill and additional ~20. That leaves about 40 conscripts vs 20 guardians + 1 serpent on turn 5. which would eventually be a win for the eldar by turn 10 or so... Not ideal, but it works theoretically.

 womprat49 wrote:
They are phenomenal, in my play style at least. And darn cool too. I think they are overlooked mainly and no one bothers with them due to lack of easy to collect models on the market. Once they make a new series of kits, people will unlock thier awesome power and that will be next unit people complain about.

I think 40k is about masses of plastic due to $$ GW can collect so I'll embrace that for my part.

I have 6 rough Riders and use them in most games. They are great. In fact, I'm currently building 13 converted rough Riders/death Riders now. Minimum squad sizes + Eversor is pretty great insurance to get someone in CC with back field units and then grab OBJs with their speed.

 womprat49 wrote:
Not at all they are super flexible unit and priced right on the money.

I will continue to use them because players haven't found a good counter against a shooting horde army. I think players for the most part hyper focus on them without changing tactics what so ever.

Meanwhile IG may be the most flexible army out there.

I mean I never see trios of Whirlwinds or Thunderfire cannons on the table, nor tiny jump assault units that could make a real mess for my conscripts.

Once Conscripts get nerfed, then Rough Riders will because they are another gem in the IG codex.

Do you also think Commissars and Commanders are priced "right on the money?" In any game system where you could pay 20% of the cost of a unit to double its firepower, that would be considered autoinclude. Same for a 20% increase that practically, what, doubles your durability? Autoincludes are mostly bad for the game. There should be a real decisions to make when it comes to building a list, but that just isn't the case for Conscripts and their accessories.

Can I have a 60 point upgrade that gives my Stormraven 2 S9, 4 S8 and 12 S4 shots per turn? Yeah didn't think so.

For your point about people not finding a good counter, it's because there isn't one. Not for Guard anyway. It's pretty clear that GW knew that by removing templates they were buffing hordes, and so they built a counter to them in the main rules: morale. Then for some reason when writing the rules they though "Hey wouldn't it be cool if most armies could just flat our ignore morale?"

No, no it fething wouldn't.

And for the love of God, before anyone says it, snipers are not a cost efficient counter.

 Quickjager wrote:
For what it is worth I didn't care about their offensive power, making them easier to kill will impact their offensive power to manageable levels.

It's worth a lot, IMO. If we can all agree that their offensive power isn't that scary beyond the 12" band, we could probably avoid some amount of fairly fruitless side-tracking.

It's primarily a durabiliy thing, especially against armies that rely on getting close to the rest of the gunline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tetengo wrote:

And for the love of God, before anyone says it, snipers are not a cost efficient counter.

I think most of us agree on that.

One thing to consider though is that snipers failing to do their job even against the most fragile of targets suggests a problem with snipers.

Characters are powerful and abundant in 8th. Everyone needs a way to deal with them in general. So, focusing only on neutering the IG's characters is missing the forest for the trees. And rather unfair, since we were doing the character buff thing before 8th ed made it cool.

Snipers do need to be fixed. They need to be reasonably able to take down things like Rowboat and Commissars, preferably in a way that allows them to challenge a monster like Rowboat without necessarily turning a Commissar into a joke. Either that, or the rules protecting characters need to be loosened so that targeting a character with non-sniper units is a little easier (though that would mean snipers continue to have no real role on the table).

And if fixing snipers would also address the problem people have with conscripts... then wouldn't nerfing conscripts into the ground on top of that be overkill?

Commissars are more protected than Guilliman. Snipers do their job against Guilliman. He can't save mortal wounds.

4 Vindicare Assassins can hurt Guilliman.

4 Vindicare Assassins can't even see the Commissar.

I would also change the rules for targeting characters such that if there are 2 characters within range, you can pick which one you shoot against. Ran into this in a game. Someone had 4 assassins. The Culexus was the nearest one. Meaning, I had to kill that, hitting on 6s, before i could touch the other characters, an inch behind. That makes no sense.

Characters should be targetable if there are no NON-character units closer within range.

 ross-128 wrote:

Snipers do need to be fixed. They need to be reasonably able to take down things like Rowboat

So much no. Anything that could kill RG would kill a commissar 10 times over already and would be obscenely strong against everything else as well. Sniper degrade strong heroes and kill weaker heroes. They don't need fixing at this time.

 Marmatag wrote:
Commissars are more protected than Guilliman. Snipers do their job against Guilliman. He can't save mortal wounds.

4 Vindicare Assassins can hurt Guilliman.

4 Vindicare Assassins can't even see the Commissar.

I would also change the rules for targeting characters such that if there are 2 characters within range, you can pick which one you shoot against. Ran into this in a game. Someone had 4 assassins. The Culexus was the nearest one. Meaning, I had to kill that, hitting on 6s, before i could touch the other characters, an inch behind. That makes no sense.

Characters should be targetable if there are no NON-character units closer within range.

Those Vindicare assassins can deep-strike wherever they want on the board to shoot. They can see the Commissar. You just stick them in reserve, he can't block LoS to every direction at once. So then you just find a line of fire, deep strike on it anywhere within 72" (I'm sure you can find a piece of open board within 72"), and kill him.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

Snipers do need to be fixed. They need to be reasonably able to take down things like Rowboat

So much no. Anything that could kill RG would kill a commissar 10 times over already and would be obscenely strong against everything else as well. Sniper degrade strong heroes and kill weaker heroes. They don't need fixing at this time.

Well yes, the ~200-250 points of snipers you should need to give a very expensive model like Girlyman a bad day should basically vaporize a 30 point Commissar. What I meant by "not turning the Commissar into a joke" was a matter of cost scaling. Dealing with a Commissar should of course be significantly cheaper than dealing with Girlyman, but non-trivial.

If I bring a hard counter to a 30 point model, I expect killing it to be entirely trivial.

Then there should be wound threshold that if a character model drops below a sniper should be getting bonus wounds.

 crimsondave wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Several of us IG players have agreed that conscripts need nerfed. However, the whiners here aren't going to be happy unless they are turned into complete trash. Cutting their firepower in HALF is LITERALLY not good enough for you.

Don't worry. If Marines are truly getting curb stomped by IG on a regular basis GW won't let it last.

Shockingly, the unit whose players have attested would still be taken if they had literally zero firepower and cost the same probably won't be fixed solely by reducing their firepower. Because the larger issue is they are far too hard to remove for their cost.

So you would rather I take 4 units of 10 regular guard instead? I could deploy them as a meat shield out of coherency where you couldn't lock them all up. Would that not make up for the extra 10 points and 10 models? Not to mention they hit 50% instead of 33%. If firepower is not the issue, then the problem is all IG infantry.

Again, 3 points vs 4 points for the same wounds/armor save may not seem like a big difference, but the cost going from 150 to 200 for 50 bodies helps balance things out greatly. Plus, that's 5 potential morale casualties vs 1, and you might even need 2 commissars to buff all the individual units. All those costs add up and make normal squads far more balanced overall.

So yes I'd prefer you take normal guard over conscripts. Most would.

 Melissia wrote:
Well, close to twice as long. Now, instead of the predator twin-lascannon turret getting one shot that rerolls, it just flat out gets two shots. Quad-Las preds are something local players are thinking of picking up lately.

Now that the new codex is out, anyone looking at taking multiple preds is looking at pred autocannons and heavy bolters.

Are you taking one or two preds? Quad Las.
Three or more? Autocannon and bolters.

The Big Game Hunter stratagem is just too good...

 ross-128 wrote:

And if fixing snipers would also address the problem people have with conscripts... then wouldn't nerfing conscripts into the ground on top of that be overkill?

I'm not sure that guarantees much. IG character models are small and easy to hide, and IG has tanks to hide behind. Rather than being a direct counter, snipers restrict movement of supporting characters.

Not that I think conscripts need to be nerfed, I just see snipers as an annoyance. An IG player can hide the characters and Wyvern the snipers. Although if they're dedicating firepower to kill sniper squads, it could buy you some valuable time as you're doing whatever you need to do.


Edit: huh, a Manticore only averages 2.4 wounds against a Land Raider. Also, Auto Launchers can be an amusing defense against drop-Scions w/plasma. The more I look at it, the more I like the vehicle-protected advance.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Ah, yeah, jumping around from thread to thread over the course of a week destroys context haha. My own personal crusade is to find a list of Craftworld Eldar that can beat conscripts on cost. 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights is 401 points. I want a list, I don't care how tailored, that can beat that for the same points cost. At this point I'll up it to anything <500 points, because no list has been remotely close so far.

Ah, ok. This sounds familiar now, something like a 4x4 board too, right? I'll give it some more thought, but that's pretty specific. Is there a turn limit?

Side note, I just noticed Shuriken Cannons are Assault Weapons, that's kinda neat.

Yup, 4x4 board. No turn limit (although if the conscripts are ahead after 6 turns or so I'll consider it an iffy proposition), whatever terrain that is even minimally realistic, and I'm pretty much granting Eldar all the little things I can think of, like first turn.

Any argument that something is "out of range" of the conscripts by turn 2 is going to be looked at with suspicion though, seeing as they can get to the middle of the table on turn 1, and everything is in range of the middle of the table.

Also... yup, Shuriken Cannons being Assault weapons are why they are so common now. Scatter lasers are worse (especially if you move) and cost more, Starcannons are WAY overpriced after the errata nerf, and brightlances are still brightlances and are therefore the only other heavy weapon taken.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - most lists don't have snipers. Why? Because snipers suck. The ones that do have snipers - you just park a tank to block LOS - stand farther away from said snipers . . . . [and so forth]

Right. But, Rangers are a decent Troops choice for Eldar, and a Farseer with Doom (which is an amazing power) is sort of a no-brainer thing to have around, as far as I can tell. These are points not spent to take out conscripts, from what I'm seeing. These are points spent because you're playing Eldar in the first place. Every turn they don't spend shooting at Commissars is a turn they can do something else. From my perspective, you're threatening Commissar-sniping almost for free, by their mere presence.

Like I said previously, I don't think it's a full solution. But I think it's a good move to make, regardless.

Ah, yeah, jumping around from thread to thread over the course of a week destroys context haha. My own personal crusade is to find a list of Craftworld Eldar that can beat conscripts on cost. 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights is 401 points. I want a list, I don't care how tailored, that can beat that for the same points cost. At this point I'll up it to anything <500 points, because no list has been remotely close so far.

Best I can think of is Storm Guardians w/ flamers in Waveserpents playing slowly. It takes about 5 turns for conscripts to down a single serpent, so the serpents either stay out of rapid fire range, or repeatedly shoot-charge to prevent FRFSRF for 4 turns. They can kill roughly 8 conscripts per turn then unload the guardians on turn 5 to kill an additional ~20. That leaves about 40 conscripts vs 20 guardians + 1 serpent on turn 5. which would eventually be a win for the eldar by turn 10 or so... Not ideal, but it works theoretically.

Hey! You didn't show your work but the math checks out on a single shot basis at least. Good start lol

2 FULL HP Wave Serpents = 6 shuriken cannons = 18 shots, 12 hit, 10 wound, 2 get AP and 2.66 of the other 8 are saved, so 7.33 dead. +1 to morale.

One FULL conscript squad with frfsrf+searchlight at max range is 100 shots, 50 hits, 8.33 wounds, 5.55 saves = 2.78 damage. I'm going to use this as the standard and double it for rapid fire, and take percentages off it as they die off.

Ok, so I'm going to play out the Turns with just the serpents. I think your better off avoiding as much rapid-fire as you can rather than charging repeatedly - overwatch+1 round of melee + guaranteed rapid fire is better for the conscripts than one frfsrf long range shot, and you're almost never going to be hit with rapid fire from more than one target if you keep your distance.

Turn 1 Eldar: you move to the far right, such that only the right squad can return fire with a full squad.

All shots are directed at the right conscript squad, so 8 die.

Turn 1 IG: The right squad moves into range. The entire squad is in range because the shuriken cannon only has 24" range and the block can move 6". The left squad does the advance+fire order - they should have to roll about 1" on the advance to get into range, but I admit I'm having trouble visualizing exactly how they move past the right squad and how much that hurts them. It also has to do with the exact placement of the wave serpents, obviously. So... I'm already off hardcore math, but

42 Conscripts = 2.78 x 0.84 = 2.34 damage
??? conscripts = round that up to 3.

Turn 2 Eldar: I don't think you can avoid rapid-fire now. If you go around the near side, the left squad gets you. If you go around the far side, the right squad gets you. I think the correct tactical choice is to go far side, so the smaller unit is getting rapid fire.

Kill 8 more conscripts.

Turn 2 IG: Move towards own starting zone, where wave serpents now are. Right squad is in rapid-fire range, lefts squad is all within 24" but not rapid-fire.

34 conscripts = 2 x 2.78 x 0.68 = 3.78 damage
50 conscripts = 2.78

One wave serpent has now lost 9-10 hp. Either way, efficiency is down.

Turn 3 Eldar: Keep moving along the back edge.

Technically one wave serpent is shooting at BS4+ now, but also we've been rounding down their kills slightly for 2 turns in a row so let's just say it's even. 7 more conscripts die. (morale later this turn)

It looks bad for the Wave serpent. I think it's destroyed next turn, so maybe now is when you deploy guardians? Please feel free to math out some other version, because I'm not going to math out every possible option lol.

24 storm guardians deploy (Definiately way more points than the 401 on conscripts, but I did say we're up to 500 now for Eldar)
4d6 worth of flamers do 14 hits, 9.33 wound, 3.11 save, 6.22 dead conscripts.
20 pistols = 13.33 hits, 8.88 wound, 2.96 save, 5.92 dead conscripts.

15 conscripts overwatch, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.41 save, 0.84 dead guardian.

24 guardian attacks, 16 hit + 4.44 from re-roll = 20.44 hit, 10.22 wound, 3.41 save, 6.81 dead conscripts (I just realized I forgot to remove the overwatch guardian but I'm not re-doing that. More advantage to Eldar is fine lol)

8 conscripts attack, 5.33 hit, 2.66 wound, 0.88 save, 1.77 dead guardian.

In the interests of always favoring Eldar, I will assume they made their pile-in and consolidate such that they brought the other conscripts into combat. I have a hard time figuring out off the top of my head how much they can pile-in, but I'm going to assume that 10 more conscripts is heavily favoring the Eldar, because I've seen what tight blocks of conscripts can do with consolidate. So that's 2 more dead guardians.

Final tally is 5 dead storm guardians. Let's favor Eldar again, they're split such that there is no loss to morale.

The unit of 8 conscripts is now down to 7 from morale.


Turn 3 IG:

Searchlights are interesting in that they're only good for one-on-one targetting. The ideal breakdown would probably involve shooting most of the 50 man conscript squad at the bigger of the two guardian squads with searchlight bufff.... but blah blah that math is complicated and I think even if we just favor the Eldar again, the outcome here is overwhelming.

Both squads back off, they both are ordered to fallback+fire, they have rapid fire range. They need to kill 19 remaining storm guardians.

57 Conscripts, 114 shots, 76 hit, 38 wound, 12.66 save, 25.33 dead guardians.

Now between that overkill and the lack of searchlight, I'm going to claim that the next turn's damage to the wave serpent will be rounded up (because one of them is at 9.5 hp, and it's about to take 2.78 more damage). I've put a million little tid-bits in the Eldar's favor, this one isn't unreasonable and lets me end early on a very clean note... let me explain.

Turn 4 Eldar: Finish off conscripts sqaud

Turn 4 IG:Finish off Wave Serpent.

We are now back to exactly half of what we started with. Except, of course, there's nothing in the serpent. They go on forever but without the burst of damage from the storm guardians, the conscripts eventually win.

I ask that if you see anything I didn't calculate well, please show your own math. I tried to be SO generous to the Eldar (not to mention they have almost 25% more points and have a tailored list) and I don't want someone to just say "Conscripts can't get in range like you think they can" and pretend that cancels out everything I just mathed out.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Also... yup, Shuriken Cannons being Assault weapons are why they are so common now. Scatter lasers are worse (especially if you move) and cost more, Starcannons are WAY overpriced after the errata nerf, and brightlances are still brightlances and are therefore the only other heavy weapon taken.

What's the errata nerf for Starcannons?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Also... yup, Shuriken Cannons being Assault weapons are why they are so common now. Scatter lasers are worse (especially if you move) and cost more, Starcannons are WAY overpriced after the errata nerf, and brightlances are still brightlances and are therefore the only other heavy weapon taken.

What's the errata nerf for Starcannons?

They put a "d' in front of the "3" for damage.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Also... yup, Shuriken Cannons being Assault weapons are why they are so common now. Scatter lasers are worse (especially if you move) and cost more, Starcannons are WAY overpriced after the errata nerf, and brightlances are still brightlances and are therefore the only other heavy weapon taken.

What's the errata nerf for Starcannons?

They put a "d' in front of the "3" for damage.

Awwwwwwwww...... boo hiss.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Hey! You didn't show your work but the math checks out on a single shot basis at least. Good start lol

2 FULL HP Wave Serpents = 6 shuriken cannons = 18 shots, 12 hit, 10 wound, 2 get AP and 2.66 of the other 8 are saved, so 7.33 dead. +1 to morale.
...

I ask that if you see anything I didn't calculate well, please show your own math. I tried to be SO generous to the Eldar (not to mention they have almost 25% more points and have a tailored list) and I don't want someone to just say "Conscripts can't get in range like you think they can" and pretend that cancels out everything I just mathed out.

In a real scenario it should be possible to avoid line of sight from searchlights that cant move, but assuming you cant, Eldar spends turn 1 killing the search light from range. Wave serpents should also have scatter lasers and CTMs (which are close enough to shuriken cannons in damage but longer range so they can sit by the edge of the table).

Turn 1: Eldar kills searchlights from 36" range
-Guard move into 24" range, fires 200 shots with FRFSRF doing ~3.7 damage (best case scenario for guard, likely going to be much less due to terrain issues, not being in range, forced to advance+fire, etc..)
Turn 2: Eldar kills 8+1 conscripts
-Guard moves into 18" range, fires 182 shots doing ~3.4 damage with FRFSRF
Turn 3: Each wave serpent moves up and kills 12+2 conscripts (serpent shields, 2 moral checks) then charges both conscript squads (assuming 0 damage in combat as most likely outcome)
-Guard falls back and shoots 154 rapidfire shots doing ~2.8 damage
Turn 4: Eldar kills 7+1 conscripts (due to BS 4+ on first wave serpent now), charges both conscript squads again (again 0 damage assumed for combat)
- Guard falls back and shoots 138 shots doing ~2.5 damage
Turn 5: First wave serpent has taken 12.4 damage now, but assuming it died, 1 wave serpent kills 4 conscripts, flamers/pistols kill ~12, 44 combat attacks (assuming chainswords) kills ~13, 2 die to moral. (38 conscripts left) Guard fights and kills maybe 2?
-Guard falls back and shoots 76 shots killing ~ 8 guardians
Turn 6: ~12 guardians get back in wave serpent and repeat (but now its only 38 conscripts to 1 waveserpent rather than 50+searchlight so eldar win easily)

 Deathypoo wrote:
We are now back to exactly half of what we started with. Except, of course, there's nothing in the serpent. They go on forever but without the burst of damage from the storm guardians, the conscripts eventually win.

The first of that itself presents an issue since objectives are taken by a show of force. Four of your turns have subsided yet half the units remain. Unless you happen to have the magic counter units in the rest of your list, and they aren't busy getting destroyed or focusing other targets, it's a challenge requiring a solution. Even in the followup, the game is already over. Long range anti-tank spam is simple but long-range anti-horde is more of Guilliman's missile spamming forte and still isn't climbing any win ladders. Short range can be useful but then we're dealing with the tactics aspect of the game which can vary. As much as I'm sure some would love to see Conscripts on equal footing with Space Marines, even though every unit in the game has similar priced units that it devours or dies to easily, the SMs themselves aren't in a great spot either and about as great of a measuring stick as the state of gaunts. Which oddly enough made it appropriate that someone decided to pit the two against each other... <_<

 Deathypoo wrote:


Yup, 4x4 board.

I think I have found the problem. Who even plays 40K on 4 by 4 anyway?

SilverAlien wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Several of us IG players have agreed that conscripts need nerfed. However, the whiners here aren't going to be happy unless they are turned into complete trash. Cutting their firepower in HALF is LITERALLY not good enough for you.

Don't worry. If Marines are truly getting curb stomped by IG on a regular basis GW won't let it last.

Shockingly, the unit whose players have attested would still be taken if they had literally zero firepower and cost the same probably won't be fixed solely by reducing their firepower. Because the larger issue is they are far too hard to remove for their cost.

So you would rather I take 4 units of 10 regular guard instead? I could deploy them as a meat shield out of coherency where you couldn't lock them all up. Would that not make up for the extra 10 points and 10 models? Not to mention they hit 50% instead of 33%. If firepower is not the issue, then the problem is all IG infantry.

Again, 3 points vs 4 points for the same wounds/armor save may not seem like a big difference, but the cost going from 150 to 200 for 50 bodies helps balance things out greatly. Plus, that's 5 potential morale casualties vs 1, and you might even need 2 commissars to buff all the individual units. All those costs add up and make normal squads far more balanced overall.

So yes I'd prefer you take normal guard over conscripts. Most would.

How would you feel about 2 squads of 20 conscripts? I have 40 conscripts I'd like to field, but I don't want to be OP either. I could change out to all regulars, but I'd have to buy another box of Heavy Weapons not to mention conscripts are part of my regiments fluff. I am willing to can them though if people just absolutely didn't want to play them.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Hey! You didn't show your work but the math checks out on a single shot basis at least. Good start lol

2 FULL HP Wave Serpents = 6 shuriken cannons = 18 shots, 12 hit, 10 wound, 2 get AP and 2.66 of the other 8 are saved, so 7.33 dead. +1 to morale.
...

I ask that if you see anything I didn't calculate well, please show your own math. I tried to be SO generous to the Eldar (not to mention they have almost 25% more points and have a tailored list) and I don't want someone to just say "Conscripts can't get in range like you think they can" and pretend that cancels out everything I just mathed out.

In a real scenario it should be possible to avoid line of sight from searchlights that cant move, but assuming you cant, Eldar spends turn 1 killing the search light from range. Wave serpents should also have scatter lasers and CTMs (which are close enough to shuriken cannons in damage but longer range so they can sit by the edge of the table).

Turn 1: Eldar kills searchlights from 36" range
-Guard move into 24" range, fires 200 shots with FRFSRF doing ~3.7 damage (best case scenario for guard, likely going to be much less due to terrain issues, not being in range, forced to advance+fire, etc..)
Turn 2: Eldar kills 8+1 conscripts
-Guard moves into 18" range, fires 182 shots doing ~3.4 damage with FRFSRF
Turn 3: Each wave serpent moves up and kills 12+2 conscripts (serpent shields, 2 moral checks) then charges both conscript squads (assuming 0 damage in combat as most likely outcome)
-Guard falls back and shoots 154 rapidfire shots doing ~2.8 damage
Turn 4: Eldar kills 7+1 conscripts (due to BS 4+ on first wave serpent now), charges both conscript squads again (again 0 damage assumed for combat)
- Guard falls back and shoots 138 shots doing ~2.5 damage
Turn 5: First wave serpent has taken 12.4 damage now, but assuming it died, 1 wave serpent kills 4 conscripts, flamers/pistols kill ~12, 44 combat attacks (assuming chainswords) kills ~13, 2 die to moral. (38 conscripts left) Guard fights and kills maybe 2?
-Guard falls back and shoots 76 shots killing ~ 8 guardians
Turn 6: ~12 guardians get back in wave serpent and repeat (but now its only 38 conscripts to 1 waveserpent rather than 50+searchlight so eldar win easily)

Hmm, problem with that approach is that one wave serpent only has a 50/50 shot of killing a sabre. I can round up for Eldar's favor like I do for everything else if it were just one, but there are two and the odds are that you won't kill both.

9 shots, 6 hit, 4 wound, 1.5 saves (2 before Shuriken AP) = 2.5 wounds

Not only that, but serpents only have 24" range, so odds are you have to walk right into rapid fire range to hit the searchlights beyond.

I don't like "oh the searchlights don't see me" scenarios because the guard can stand right in front of them, to where if you shoot at anything they can see you. Yeah, it's possible there's some los as you move around the board, but for it to be exactly where you need to be to see the guards AND be at max range of the guard to avoid rapid fire frfsrf? Less likely.

Anyway, if you're spending the first two turns of Serpent shooting on killing the spotlights, I think this whole alternate scenario falls apart :(

Arkaine wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
We are now back to exactly half of what we started with. Except, of course, there's nothing in the serpent. They go on forever but without the burst of damage from the storm guardians, the conscripts eventually win.

The first of that itself presents an issue since objectives are taken by a show of force. Four of your turns have subsided yet half the units remain. Unless you happen to have the magic counter units in the rest of your list, and they aren't busy getting destroyed or focusing other targets, it's a challenge requiring a solution. Even in the followup, the game is already over. Long range anti-tank spam is simple but long-range anti-horde is more of Guilliman's missile spamming forte and still isn't climbing any win ladders. Short range can be useful but then we're dealing with the tactics aspect of the game which can vary. As much as I'm sure some would love to see Conscripts on equal footing with Space Marines, even though every unit in the game has similar priced units that it devours or dies to easily, the SMs themselves aren't in a great spot either and about as great of a measuring stick as the state of gaunts. Which oddly enough made it appropriate that someone decided to pit the two against each other... <_<

I... I'm honestly not sure what's being said here. Like, at all. But I am curious so here I am responding to it haha. Care to edit that into something a little more clear?

master of ordinance wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:


Yup, 4x4 board.

I think I have found the problem. Who even plays 40K on 4 by 4 anyway?

It's a <500 point game.