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 Deathypoo wrote:

Hmm, problem with that approach is that one wave serpent only has a 50/50 shot of killing a sabre. I can round up for Eldar's favor like I do for everything else if it were just one, but there are two and the odds are that you won't kill both.

9 shots, 6 hit, 4 wound, 1.5 saves (2 before Shuriken AP) = 2.5 wounds

Not only that, but serpents only have 24" range, so odds are you have to walk right into rapid fire range to hit the searchlights beyond.

I don't like "oh the searchlights don't see me" scenarios because the guard can stand right in front of them, to where if you shoot at anything they can see you. Yeah, it's possible there's some los as you move around the board, but for it to be exactly where you need to be to see the guards AND be at max range of the guard to avoid rapid fire frfsrf? Less likely.

Anyway, if you're spending the first two turns of Serpent shooting on killing the spotlights, I think this whole alternate scenario falls apart :(

There's definitely many different ways the scenario could play out, but as long as you have at least 1 LOS blocking terrain feature (which should be on every board) then it favors the eldar. I gave every possible advantage to the guard. The Eldar only need one thing going their way to come out ahead: you could avoid one searchlight, or avoid some of the conscripts, or get a cover save bonus for a turn or 2, or avoid half their shooting by being out of range, etc... The only way the conscripts can possibly come out ahead is on a small table with no terrain with all 100 conscripts getting in range of a single serpent turn 1.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Hmm, problem with that approach is that one wave serpent only has a 50/50 shot of killing a sabre. I can round up for Eldar's favor like I do for everything else if it were just one, but there are two and the odds are that you won't kill both.

9 shots, 6 hit, 4 wound, 1.5 saves (2 before Shuriken AP) = 2.5 wounds

Not only that, but serpents only have 24" range, so odds are you have to walk right into rapid fire range to hit the searchlights beyond.

I don't like "oh the searchlights don't see me" scenarios because the guard can stand right in front of them, to where if you shoot at anything they can see you. Yeah, it's possible there's some los as you move around the board, but for it to be exactly where you need to be to see the guards AND be at max range of the guard to avoid rapid fire frfsrf? Less likely.

Anyway, if you're spending the first two turns of Serpent shooting on killing the spotlights, I think this whole alternate scenario falls apart :(

There's definitely many different ways the scenario could play out, but as long as you have at least 1 LOS blocking terrain feature (which should be on every board) then it favors the eldar. I gave every possible advantage to the guard. The Eldar only need one thing going their way to come out ahead: you could avoid one searchlight, or avoid some of the conscripts, or get a cover save bonus for a turn or 2, or avoid half their shooting by being out of range, etc... The only way the conscripts can possibly come out ahead is on a small table with no terrain with all 100 conscripts getting in range of a single serpent turn 1.

If you're shooting at a searchlight on turn 1, then not only will all 100 conscripts definitely be in range of a serpent, but they will likely have some in rapid fire range.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Hmm, problem with that approach is that one wave serpent only has a 50/50 shot of killing a sabre. I can round up for Eldar's favor like I do for everything else if it were just one, but there are two and the odds are that you won't kill both.

9 shots, 6 hit, 4 wound, 1.5 saves (2 before Shuriken AP) = 2.5 wounds

Not only that, but serpents only have 24" range, so odds are you have to walk right into rapid fire range to hit the searchlights beyond.

I don't like "oh the searchlights don't see me" scenarios because the guard can stand right in front of them, to where if you shoot at anything they can see you. Yeah, it's possible there's some los as you move around the board, but for it to be exactly where you need to be to see the guards AND be at max range of the guard to avoid rapid fire frfsrf? Less likely.

Anyway, if you're spending the first two turns of Serpent shooting on killing the spotlights, I think this whole alternate scenario falls apart :(

There's definitely many different ways the scenario could play out, but as long as you have at least 1 LOS blocking terrain feature (which should be on every board) then it favors the eldar. I gave every possible advantage to the guard. The Eldar only need one thing going their way to come out ahead: you could avoid one searchlight, or avoid some of the conscripts, or get a cover save bonus for a turn or 2, or avoid half their shooting by being out of range, etc... The only way the conscripts can possibly come out ahead is on a small table with no terrain with all 100 conscripts getting in range of a single serpent turn 1.

If you're shooting at a searchlight on turn 1, then not only will all 100 conscripts definitely be in range of a serpent, but they will likely have some in rapid fire range.

Scatter lasers are 36" range, its possible you could kill a search light with 0 return fire from conscripts

 Deathypoo wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:


Yup, 4x4 board.

I think I have found the problem. Who even plays 40K on 4 by 4 anyway?

It's a <500 point game.

Wait, so your opponent put all of his points into this unit and its buffs and nothing else?

 Deathypoo wrote:
I... I'm honestly not sure what's being said here. Like, at all. But I am curious so here I am responding to it haha. Care to edit that into something a little more clear?

Killing too slow, losing to model count on objectives.

Two things to keep things simple and not changing rules mechanics would fix conscripts.
1) give them a 6+ save
2) limit their unit size to 30.

This will be more than enough of nerf and adds no new mechanics or rules changes.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
I... I'm honestly not sure what's being said here. Like, at all. But I am curious so here I am responding to it haha. Care to edit that into something a little more clear?

Killing too slow, losing to model count on objectives.

For what it's worth, this won't be a problem anymore for the majority of players very soon. Objective Secured is making a comeback in the Space Marines and CSM books.

Personally I would oppose making Conscripts more expensive or otherwise worse stat-wise, as this would make them inferior to regular Guardsmen and Tyranid Gaunts. My personal solution would be to limit their availability within the army.

How about something like this: for every Platoon Commander in a Detachment, you may include a unit of Conscripts.
This brings Conscripts in line with the established precedent for Scion Command Squads as well.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - most lists don't have snipers. Why? Because snipers suck. The ones that do have snipers - you just park a tank to block LOS - stand farther away from said snipers . . . . [and so forth]

Right. But, Rangers are a decent Troops choice for Eldar, and a Farseer with Doom (which is an amazing power) is sort of a no-brainer thing to have around, as far as I can tell. These are points not spent to take out conscripts, from what I'm seeing. These are points spent because you're playing Eldar in the first place. Every turn they don't spend shooting at Commissars is a turn they can do something else. From my perspective, you're threatening Commissar-sniping almost for free, by their mere presence.

Like I said previously, I don't think it's a full solution. But I think it's a good move to make, regardless.

Ah, yeah, jumping around from thread to thread over the course of a week destroys context haha. My own personal crusade is to find a list of Craftworld Eldar that can beat conscripts on cost. 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights is 401 points. I want a list, I don't care how tailored, that can beat that for the same points cost. At this point I'll up it to anything <500 points, because no list has been remotely close so far.

For eldar? I think it is possible. Yvraine can sling shot a unit of 10 shining spears 32" and then they can charge - it's kind of a waste but that unit is pretty close to mulching 50 conscripts on their own between 40 shuriken shots plus their lance shooting and then their assault with str 4 power weapons. Realistically though - if there was any weak-point - a unit like this could breach it and kill 3 tanks in 1 turn. Another option is taking Yncarne - sniping a tank with crimson hunters (or you could try spamming nightspinners) and placing him at it's corpse (hopefully able to place with some LOS blocking) so he doesn't take too much firepower - then yncarne can start killing manticores.. You have to get in the flank basically - or be able to attack the flank with powerful stuff. Eldar have a unique ability to get there with huge mobility and psychic shenanigans. You just can't beat these armies in a fair fight.

 crimsondave wrote:
How would you feel about 2 squads of 20 conscripts? I have 40 conscripts I'd like to field, but I don't want to be OP either. I could change out to all regulars, but I'd have to buy another box of Heavy Weapons not to mention conscripts are part of my regiments fluff. I am willing to can them though if people just absolutely didn't want to play them.

My statement was a hypothetical "what is better balanced to face", not an attempt to guilt people out of running their army how they want. Run what you like, just try not to stomp players with weaker armies. Anything beyond that isn't your job to deal with, it is GW's.

Second, conscripts don't even become an issue when taken in moderation. 50 conscripts total isn't an issue, 100-200 conscripts (depending on point value of the match) is where it becomes a problem.

Scatter Lasers are also Heavy instead of assault, and therefore worse than shuriken while moving. I don't think you're looking at a net gain by swapping to them, but if you want to math it out have at it. I'd rather not go through the same exact scenario with such a minor change - I'm pretty sure the Eldar still get stomped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I play Craftworld Eldar

Breng77 wrote:

I suggested that commissars do D3 wounds, and was told it was too harsh...soo

If you're referring to me, I didn't say that Commissars doing d3 wounds to Conscripts was too harsh.

What I said was making Commissars do d3 wounds to every IG Infantry unit was too harsh.

If you limit it to conscripts then I have no objections to Commissars doing d3 (or even d6) wounds.

No, no. It should not do D3 to regular infantry. D6 to conscripts is an interesting idea.

The issue is that doing that takes more rules writing than a blanket change would.

Which is fine, just seems to go against simplifying things.

I have other thoughts, but people will think those are too harsh as well.

It could be d6 for regular Commissars and d3 for Commissar Lords, perhaps?

EDIT:

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is that doing that takes more rules writing than a blanket change would.

It takes an extra rule, sure, but I'd much rather have that then have the normal rule be unnecessarily harsh for all other units.

Besides, Conscripts aren't exactly overburdened with abilities at the moment.

Breng77 wrote:
I have other thoughts, but people will think those are too harsh as well.

I can't promise that I'll agree with them but I'd be happy to hear them.

My recent thought for a single rule fix is to have commissars halve casualties from morale rounding down.

Doing this is a slight nerf to non-conscripts as they would lose 2 models after taking 8 losses 50% of the time, after losing 7 models 33% of the time, and after losing 6 models 17% of the time. But never lose more than 2 models.

Conscripts would suffer quite a bit more, to the extent that I would consider saying 6 max for losses from morale. Even then if losses for conscripts were too bad you could always spend CP to auto-pass, which means you won't be able to do it all the time, and it has a cost.

Even uncapped it would be hard capped at 16 losses after taking 34 wounds in a 50 man squad, but at that point you spend the 2 CP to auto pass, and if it is later in the game and you don't have CP chances are the conscripts have already done their job.

For a 30 man squad 21 wounds would kill a squad on a 6 unless they spend 2 CP. 23 will auto kill the squad without spending CP.
What it amounts to is about a 25-30% reduction in conscript durability if they don't spend CP to either auto-pass or re-roll the morale dice.

I would say...remove orders. They shouldn't have them considering their highly qualified training...

The other thing I would say is...

Give every faction efficient ways to deal with the targeting dilemma. It doesn't need to be overwhelmingly powerful (as many of those options clearly aren't in the factions that do have them).

Hopefully that will come in time with the dex drops.

Out of the poll options though the other thing I would say would be the armour saves being raised/lowered to 6+. They are supposed to be poorly equipped masses of untrained troops right? Why would they get anything better than the bare minimum when it comes to gear?

They would still serve their role. Sure they would be shredded a bit quicker but this wouldn't impact their role as tarpits much at all as they're cheap and come in a huge wave.

Breng77 wrote:
My recent thought for a single rule fix is to have commissars halve casualties from morale rounding down.

Doing this is a slight nerf to non-conscripts as they would lose 2 models after taking 8 losses 50% of the time, after losing 7 models 33% of the time, and after losing 6 models 17% of the time. But never lose more than 2 models.

Conscripts would suffer quite a bit more, to the extent that I would consider saying 6 max for losses from morale. Even then if losses for conscripts were too bad you could always spend CP to auto-pass, which means you won't be able to do it all the time, and it has a cost.

Even uncapped it would be hard capped at 16 losses after taking 34 wounds in a 50 man squad, but at that point you spend the 2 CP to auto pass, and if it is later in the game and you don't have CP chances are the conscripts have already done their job.

For a 30 man squad 21 wounds would kill a squad on a 6 unless they spend 2 CP. 23 will auto kill the squad without spending CP.
What it amounts to is about a 25-30% reduction in conscript durability if they don't spend CP to either auto-pass or re-roll the morale dice.

As above, I'd rather the change be specific to Conscripts. Whilst conscripts could perhaps be an exception in terms of being undisciplined or such (perhaps the Commissar has to kill a few just to get their attention ), I think for other squads this really would go against the fluff for Commissars. The whole idea is that they only ever need to shoot one man and the remainder get the message. Especially considering the reputation of Commissars (don't forget that they're supposed to be more terrifying to guardsmen than any of their actual enemies).

From a mechanical standpoint, I really don't want to see regular IG Infantry (or Commissars for that matter) be punished because one specific unit is considered OP.


Anyway, if it was only applied to Conscripts . . . I really don't know. a 25-30% reduction in durability might be a bit much (especially since that's the only thing you're taking them for). I could be wrong though. However, the honest answer is that I really don't know. I don't actually use Conscripts myself so it's hard to gauge what impact this would have on them.

Would any Conscript-users like to weigh in here?

Amusingly, the main thing I find myself wondering is 'has a Commissar got enough bullets in his pistol to take out all these deserters at once?'

Breng77 wrote:
My recent thought for a single rule fix is to have commissars halve casualties from morale rounding down.

Doing this is a slight nerf to non-conscripts as they would lose 2 models after taking 8 losses 50% of the time, after losing 7 models 33% of the time, and after losing 6 models 17% of the time. But never lose more than 2 models.

Conscripts would suffer quite a bit more, to the extent that I would consider saying 6 max for losses from morale. Even then if losses for conscripts were too bad you could always spend CP to auto-pass, which means you won't be able to do it all the time, and it has a cost.

Even uncapped it would be hard capped at 16 losses after taking 34 wounds in a 50 man squad, but at that point you spend the 2 CP to auto pass, and if it is later in the game and you don't have CP chances are the conscripts have already done their job.

For a 30 man squad 21 wounds would kill a squad on a 6 unless they spend 2 CP. 23 will auto kill the squad without spending CP.
What it amounts to is about a 25-30% reduction in conscript durability if they don't spend CP to either auto-pass or re-roll the morale dice.

That makes veterans even more unappealing, though it does remove the utility of the infantry squad screen I suggested earlier, though not in a good way for anyone wanting to use infantry squads under "friendly" terms.

And everyone who was just taking one squad of conscripts will now take two or three to compensate, turning them into the players that you're trying to tailor this rule against.

Gonna hopefully have my game tomorrow against the conscript list. 2000 points. I'm rhino rushing 4 tac squads, I've got a squad of scouts with sniper rifles, at least one captain and lieutenant, and the last 600 points or so are probably going to be devastators and maybe some razorbacks. Total 5th ed list. We'll see how it goes.

Yes it is less fluffy, in general though I think the commissars buff is a little much in general as it is not that common for smaller squads to fail LD in the first place. Also from a fluff stand point why does he need to shoot 1 guy per squad that fails, shouldn't 1 be enough?
Also remember it is only a reduction in their durability if your opponent is killing a lot of them, and you aren't willing to spend a CP for them to auto-pass.

Another fix that might be better actually now that I'm thinking about it would be for conscripts to not benefit from summary execution at all as a general rule, but to give IG a stratagem in their codex that applies his summary execution to the conscripts.


So make summary execution read "non-conscript astra militarum units..."

Then give IG/AM a 1 CP stratagem for commissars that applies Summary Execution to conscripts in his range.

This would make the use of the ability more resource dependent, and mean that if you did damage to multiple conscript units your opponent would need to choose which one would benefit, it would still allow a second to auto-pass for 2CP if desired.

If significant damage was done to 3 squads one is going to flee.

This also to an extent punishes spamming these squads as the more there are the worse they become in theory.

 daedalus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
My recent thought for a single rule fix is to have commissars halve casualties from morale rounding down.

Doing this is a slight nerf to non-conscripts as they would lose 2 models after taking 8 losses 50% of the time, after losing 7 models 33% of the time, and after losing 6 models 17% of the time. But never lose more than 2 models.

Conscripts would suffer quite a bit more, to the extent that I would consider saying 6 max for losses from morale. Even then if losses for conscripts were too bad you could always spend CP to auto-pass, which means you won't be able to do it all the time, and it has a cost.

Even uncapped it would be hard capped at 16 losses after taking 34 wounds in a 50 man squad, but at that point you spend the 2 CP to auto pass, and if it is later in the game and you don't have CP chances are the conscripts have already done their job.

For a 30 man squad 21 wounds would kill a squad on a 6 unless they spend 2 CP. 23 will auto kill the squad without spending CP.
What it amounts to is about a 25-30% reduction in conscript durability if they don't spend CP to either auto-pass or re-roll the morale dice.

That makes veterans even more unappealing, though it does remove the utility of the infantry squad screen I suggested earlier, though not in a good way for anyone wanting to use infantry squads under "friendly" terms.

And everyone who was just taking one squad of conscripts will now take two or three to compensate, turning them into the players that you're trying to tailor this rule against.

Gonna hopefully have my game tomorrow against the conscript list. 2000 points. I'm rhino rushing 4 tac squads, I've got a squad of scouts with sniper rifles, at least one captain and lieutenant, and the last 600 points or so are probably going to be devastators and maybe some razorbacks. Total 5th ed list. We'll see how it goes.

Prepare to be utterly annihilated.