Primaris Tactica - Tactics using just Primaris and related models

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**ChargerIIC**

Overdose wrote:
What are everyone's load-outs for Reivers?

Combat Knife? Carbines?

Grapnel Launchers + Grav-chutes?

Recently got a box of them but not sure what the optimal loadout is

For 40k? Knife, Pistol, Grapnel Launcher. 4 shots/attacks in melee and the ability to occasionally abuse the vertical movement for a less than 9" charge. Pop into flanking hordes. They do great so long as nobody brings any AP. Then they start dieing no matter what you do.

For Kill Team? Carbines all the way. They act as speedy little intercessors with nice assault guns.

**Tibs Ironblood**

If stalkers were heavy 2 then they would be actually useful. 110 points as Deathwatch to sit back and shoot away with 36" -2ap wounding non-vehicles on 2s and be a beefy objective holder is not bad at all.

**grouchoben**

Charger is spot on - that's the only effective way of running Reivers imo too. I used to run them with carbines but phew, they do a whole lot of nothing.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
It’s possible to imagine a scenario where stalker rifles would be marginally better than normal rifles. But it doesn’t come up in every game. In lots of games I need my intercessors to move forward to screen, or the enemy is rushing me and I need to be mobile.

So when I’m designing an army for an event there’d never be a case for including stalker rifles. There won’t always be an objective that needs a unit sat on it. Even if there is, I might well have a unit with some real firepower that’s better at the job. Even if I don’t, a unit with normal rifles is usually as good as or better than stalker rifles would be – for example if anything ever comes within 15” of them.

And so for all these reasons, I’d never put stalker rifles in my army. It’s true that they’d be better if they were sat on an objective between 30 and 36” from a target, but as far as I can see that’s the only time normal rifles aren’t better. They need to be heavy 2 or have the sniper rule or something.

I made myself a squad of scouts with shotguns out of some very heavily converted reivers. I think they came out pretty well, and maybe one day I'll make a scout squad. I might even base their guns on stalker bolt rifles with extended barrels.

Fair points. (they're better between 16 and 36 inches though.) I can certainly see that their role is so situational and benefit so small, so that they're not worth including. Oh, and excellent scouts, I was contemplating doing something similar, good to see that it works well!

It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.

**Crimson**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.

I hope they at least address the price in the next CA. It is such a shame that most Primaris weapon options are just not worth using.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.

I hope they at least address the price in the next CA. It is such a shame that most Primaris weapon options are just not worth using.

At least the Assault Bolt Rifle has more use to the Stalker, but I cannot defend any of the Plasma weapons that aren't the Rapid Fire version.

**CaptainValtos**

I've built a five man squad of stalkers to run as Salamanders to hang out at the back for the backfield, and the chapter trait really gives them some more reliability for putting on wounds. It's more of a ranged hornet, it'll plink away a few models here and there, great for finishing off squads, but your opponent will have to really dedicate some firepower to shifting them, leaving some other units unharmed.

Same thing again for an LT with a stalker and salamanders. With a two damage weapon like that, he's going to be almost guaranteed to be forcing a save on something once per turn.

**Mandragola**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.

I hope they at least address the price in the next CA. It is such a shame that most Primaris weapon options are just not worth using.

At least the Assault Bolt Rifle has more use to the Stalker, but I cannot defend any of the Plasma weapons that aren't the Rapid Fire version.

I think there's a case for the assault plasma incinerators, for ravenguard. These guys can put a pretty respectable amount of hurt on people from far away, usually meaning that any return fire is at -1 to hit.

They are in a bit of trouble if the enemy rushes you, but they aren't too bad even then. They are cheap enough that a RG army can include quite a lot of them if it really wants to.

**Slayer-Fan123**

CaptainValtos wrote:
I've built a five man squad of stalkers to run as Salamanders to hang out at the back for the backfield, and the chapter trait really gives them some more reliability for putting on wounds. It's more of a ranged hornet, it'll plink away a few models here and there, great for finishing off squads, but your opponent will have to really dedicate some firepower to shifting them, leaving some other units unharmed.

Same thing again for an LT with a stalker and salamanders. With a two damage weapon like that, he's going to be almost guaranteed to be forcing a save on something once per turn.

That's more like a black ant trying to bite you. It really doesn't have bite.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.

I hope they at least address the price in the next CA. It is such a shame that most Primaris weapon options are just not worth using.

At least the Assault Bolt Rifle has more use to the Stalker, but I cannot defend any of the Plasma weapons that aren't the Rapid Fire version.

I think there's a case for the assault plasma incinerators, for ravenguard. These guys can put a pretty respectable amount of hurt on people from far away, usually meaning that any return fire is at -1 to hit.

They are in a bit of trouble if the enemy rushes you, but they aren't too bad even then. They are cheap enough that a RG army can include quite a lot of them if it really wants to.

That jump from an Overcharged S7 to S8 is pretty darn significant. I'll concede it does keep them pretty safe with more shots though.

**Ericthegreen**

assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.

Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh

**ChargerIIC**

Ericthegreen wrote:
assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.

Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh

Seems like a lot of points to pay so you can lose -1 AP.

**Mandragola**

ChargerIIC wrote:
Ericthegreen wrote:
assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.

Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh

Seems like a lot of points to pay so you can lose -1 AP.

Well it’s 5 points, so not really.

A deathwatch squad build that works fairly well is 5 intercessors with auto rifles, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. They can advance without penalties to hit and fire after falling back. They can fight reasonably well in combat too, as the aggressors have power fists. It’s a decent anti-horde unit, though pretty vulnerable if it comes up against the wrong things. At least the intercessors can tank for the expensive guys.

**ChargerIIC**

Mandragola wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:
Ericthegreen wrote:
assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.

Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh

Seems like a lot of points to pay so you can lose -1 AP.

Well it’s 5 points, so not really.

A deathwatch squad build that works fairly well is 5 intercessors with auto rifles, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. They can advance without penalties to hit and fire after falling back. They can fight reasonably well in combat too, as the aggressors have power fists. It’s a decent anti-horde unit, though pretty vulnerable if it comes up against the wrong things. At least the intercessors can tank for the expensive guys.

I supported the agressor/auto rifle blob for a long time, but I found I was paying points for a trick that wasn't getting me a lot of points killed. The Agressors are good at melee, but the Intercessors are a dead weight. The Intercessors are good at shooting, but the Aggressors need to be just outside enemy charge range to work. Worse, those power fists only hit on a 4+ with 2 attacks per aggressor. That's not great for a 39 point model. If you use the Inceptor the math gets worse as they don't want to get in melee at all and metor charge is a red herring.

The math gets slightly better if you pay the 1 CP to combat squad, but then why not just teleport a 6 man agressor squad?

**Tibs Ironblood**

ChargerIIC wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:
Ericthegreen wrote:
assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.

Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh

Seems like a lot of points to pay so you can lose -1 AP.

Well it’s 5 points, so not really.

A deathwatch squad build that works fairly well is 5 intercessors with auto rifles, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. They can advance without penalties to hit and fire after falling back. They can fight reasonably well in combat too, as the aggressors have power fists. It’s a decent anti-horde unit, though pretty vulnerable if it comes up against the wrong things. At least the intercessors can tank for the expensive guys.

I supported the agressor/auto rifle blob for a long time, but I found I was paying points for a trick that wasn't getting me a lot of points killed. The Agressors are good at melee, but the Intercessors are a dead weight. The Intercessors are good at shooting, but the Aggressors need to be just outside enemy charge range to work. Worse, those power fists only hit on a 4+ with 2 attacks per aggressor. That's not great for a 39 point model. If you use the Inceptor the math gets worse as they don't want to get in melee at all and metor charge is a red herring.

The math gets slightly better if you pay the 1 CP to combat squad, but then why not just teleport a 6 man agressor squad?

The problem with that is then the aggressors are out in the wide open and vulnerable to getting blasted away with nothing to protect them. However if you put them in a larger squad then morale becomes an issue funnily enough. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Have we considered a Combat Squad at the beginning of the game?

I know I've discussed the idea of 5 Vets with their Stalkers and a squad of 4 Bikers with a Shield Vanguard, and you combat squad to keep the Stalkers in cover and the Bikers to quickly venture forth. 5 Intercessors (which are fine with just the Bolt Rifle as is), then 4 Aggressors and a Inceptor separated from them wouldn't seem necessarily bad. Combat Squad and you can rush forward with advancing, with the Inceptor not losing accuracy because of the Aggressors conferring their rule, and the power for Aggressors to fall back and shoot could be pretty nasty.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Have we considered a Combat Squad at the beginning of the game?

I know I've discussed the idea of 5 Vets with their Stalkers and a squad of 4 Bikers with a Shield Vanguard, and you combat squad to keep the Stalkers in cover and the Bikers to quickly venture forth. 5 Intercessors (which are fine with just the Bolt Rifle as is), then 4 Aggressors and a Inceptor separated from them wouldn't seem necessarily bad. Combat Squad and you can rush forward with advancing, with the Inceptor not losing accuracy because of the Aggressors conferring their rule, and the power for Aggressors to fall back and shoot could be pretty nasty.

All you do is make your more valuable models more vulnerable by getting rid of their meat shields.

**Lemondish**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Have we considered a Combat Squad at the beginning of the game?

I know I've discussed the idea of 5 Vets with their Stalkers and a squad of 4 Bikers with a Shield Vanguard, and you combat squad to keep the Stalkers in cover and the Bikers to quickly venture forth. 5 Intercessors (which are fine with just the Bolt Rifle as is), then 4 Aggressors and a Inceptor separated from them wouldn't seem necessarily bad. Combat Squad and you can rush forward with advancing, with the Inceptor not losing accuracy because of the Aggressors conferring their rule, and the power for Aggressors to fall back and shoot could be pretty nasty.

All you do is make your more valuable models more vulnerable by getting rid of their meat shields.

Not to mention, T5 Intercessors are great, and obsec Aggressors are too.

**Martel732**

Reivers became special again. But no dissy cannon nerf so does it matter?

**ClockworkZion**

Martel732 wrote:
Reivers became special again. But no dissy cannon nerf so does it matter?

We also got access to protection against shooting on turn 1, which is pretty dang important for Marines. Counting as being in cover allows us to negate AP a bit more when going second which gives us some ability to tank turn 1 shooting better when we go second (which we do fairly often due to not having a lot of ways to decrease our drops).

**Zustiur**

Yep, I'm very happy to see the new stratagem, given that I typically go second and have CPs to spare because there are so few stratagems I can actually use.

**Spoletta**

Martel732 wrote:
Reivers became special again. But no dissy cannon nerf so does it matter?

Point cost changes are reserved for CA, so i think we will have to wait a bit more for that.

**ClockworkZion**

Spoletta wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Reivers became special again. But no dissy cannon nerf so does it matter?

Point cost changes are reserved for CA, so i think we will have to wait a bit more for that.

Yup. They specifically mentioned that no points changes for this Errata release because CA is coming soon.

**ClockworkZion**

So I finally sat down and started planning out my army list for my Imperial Fists:

Spoiler:

With a Brigade I have all the CP I can spend (most of it being reroll based), the list has 62 models running 137 wounds (not counting Chapter Master upgrade) and the MSU basically prevents most morale problems are negated and I feel like the list has most of the tools it needs to run a good game.

That said it's 17 drops and that means dropping a couple CP for getting second (meaning that if I take Chapter Master I effectively only have 10 CP to spend on re-rolls, which means if I keep it to 2 a turn I can do it for 5 turns). I'm up for some ideas on things I should consider changing, or things that could be done differently. That said I'm likely to keep the Reivers just because the list needs some support to go dig out stuff like Big Mek guns or Mortar teams.

**urzaplanewalker**

I think some of the points in your list are off. Inceptors are 135 and plasma inceptors are 177 (You need to take 2 of each gun).

Here is my list:

Spoiler:

**ClockworkZion**

urzaplanewalker wrote:
I think some of the points in your list are off. Inceptors are 135 and plasma inceptors are 177 (You need to take 2 of each gun).

It's quite possible I've screwed up somewhere. It'd help if they just sold you things you can only buy in pairs as a pair instead of buy the each so it doesn't get screwed up by people like me.

**Process**

I know im bending/completely braking the rules a little with this list but im gonna take the stance that everything in my army is modeled as primaris and vehicles and scouts don't count in my brain

So heres my fists fluff first list;

Battalion

Captain - SS + CS with teeth of terra relic - chapter master upgrade straight off the bat - WL trait undecided between the storm of fire and the fists specific one

Captain - MC bolter + PF

3x 5man intercessor squad with PS and Grenade
7man scout squad with HB and storm bolter +CS for sarge

5man Aggressor squad with BS
2x Redemptor dread with gats, storm bolters and icarus
venerable dread with 2x AC

5man inceptor squad with dakka

Spearhead

lieutenant with PS

5man HB squad with standard incinerator
2x thunderfire cannon

Comes to 1993 - could probably use the remaining to bumb the lieutenants CC weapon up

So the plan would be to create a long range static firebase with the chapter master and lieut using the ven dread, thunderfire cans and hellblasters plus a maybe intercessors. Then a more aggressive contingent made up of the second cap plus redemptors and aggressors who will push up to meet the deepstriking inceptors.

Any thoughts?

**grouchoben**

Where's your antitank coming from?

**NuhJuhKuh**

Hi folks,

I love the the Primaris models, and plan to create my own chapter that works closely with a local AM tank regiment... The upshot being a pure Primaris Battalion allied to an AM Spearhead.

So my question is: what AM tanks would work well supporting Primaris infantry? What covers their weaknesses best?

Cheers

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Separate question: 500th store birthday lieutenant w/stalker bolt rifle... Useful?!

**Lemondish**

Stalker lieutenant is useful enough when babysitting a Devastator squad. Probably won't fit well into your plans, though.

**Crimson**

NuhJuhKuh wrote:
Hi folks,

I love the the Primaris models, and plan to create my own chapter that works closely with a local AM tank regiment... The upshot being a pure Primaris Battalion allied to an AM Spearhead.

So my question is: what AM tanks would work well supporting Primaris infantry? What covers their weaknesses best?

Primaris have natively little anti-tank, so any tanks which are good at that would be my firs choice. So Leman Russ annihilators, probably.

Separate question: 500th store birthday lieutenant w/stalker bolt rifle... Useful?!

Not really. Lieutenant has BS 3+, no on is scared his one shot rifle. I'd always give them the sword, they've got WS 2+ and four attacks. Even if their main role was to support shooty units (as it often is) with a sword they can at least offer some CC threat in case enemy melee units come to harass you. If you want to use the model without converting it, it might be best to use it as an Intercessor sergeant.