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 lambsandlions wrote:
How good are reavers, shredder scourge and mandrakes?

In my limited opinion, Mandrakes are one of the best units in the Codex, Shredder Scourges are solid glass cannons against infantry heavy armies, and Reavers are a bit overrated but still very good in their specific niche.

Managed to get in 3 more games with Dark Eldar. This was my list:



(The warlord-Archon went with the Mandrakes, the other Archon and the Succubus went with the Lhamaeans.)


First game was against an Ultramarine army with 2 Leviathan dreadnoughts, which basically tore my army to shreds. I managed to kill one but couldn't do enough damage to the other.

Second game was against a different UM player, this time using Guilliman (though probably not to his full potential). I managed to table him on turn 4, with Guilliman having been damaged a little by massed fire, and then finished by the non-warlord Archon, Succubus and 2 Lhamaeans. He failed his resurrection roll, even with a CP reroll.

Third game was against an Admech player with an Imperial Knight. He conceded at the beginning of turn 3, having been reduced to a single tech priest dominus and the Knight clinging to life on 2 wounds.

I thought I'd give some more thoughts based on my experience:

- I felt I got a bit more use out of the PT rerolls this game, especially with quite a few of my Kabalites being disembarked early on. Still not sure about it, though.

- The Soul Seeker is interesting, but so far hasn't proved amazing. I mean, my Archon definitely took out some models with it, and ignoring LoS and cover is fun. However, I still haven't managed to get any use out of it as a sniper weapon (got a couple of shots off at a Librarian, but he passed both his saves). Amusingly, it did take a wound off the IK. Might even have killed it if I hadn't already used my CP reroll that phase. Now that would have been funny. Anyway, maybe I just need to be a bit more aggressive with my Warlord? So far I've taken the cautious approach and had him more on the outskirts.

- I still like Mandrakes as an escort, and putting them in a Raider proved quite useful - since it meant they could stay mobile and were protected from enemy fire, and they could hop 11" out next turn to charge something. However, since I'm not using my Archon very aggressively, I'm wondering if I'd be better off just putting him with Kabalites or such (or maybe with a single Ur-Ghul in a Venom, just so there's something to take the fall if his transport is destroyed and he rolls a 1).

Anyone have any experience using this weapon? I love the idea of a sniper-Archon, so I'd like to try and make it work.

- Anyway, the other Archon, Succubus and Lhamaeans proved surprisingly resilient. I was pretty aggressive with them, but they managed to survive every game and even killed Guilliman. The one thing I wasn't sure about was the Archon's Venom Blade. I'd taken it to balance the points, but I'd often find myself wishing I had an Agoniser for the AP or a Huskblade for the d3 damage. I mean, it definitely got some wounds in, but I felt that the Succubus and Lhamaeans were the real powerhouses in the group.

- In case it's not clear, the Blood Glaive was very nice.

- Haywire Scourges were unreliable (really not a fan of d3 shots), but brutal when they worked. One unit managed to strip 8 wounds off the Imperial Knight on the turn they arrived. Though other times they would only manage 1-2 wounds.

- The Ravager was absolutely devastating against infantry - in the first game it vaporised an entire Hellblaster squad in a single shooting phase. However, in spite of what the mathhammer apparently indicates, it was abysmal against vehicles.

- I liked having so many Warriors. It was very useful to have a lot of small, cheap squads - especially having 2-per-Raider. I could practically play a game of attrition with them, and it felt like I had a ton of 'reserves' in my transports.

- Not sure about Reavers. I think I might actually like them better as Blaster-platforms than as melee units. Basically, they struggled to lock anything meaningful in combat and invariably died either in the attempt or in the subsequent turn, and I couldn't help feeling I'd be better off holding them back and just using them as gun-platforms.

Overall, I enjoyed this list, and it certainly proved stronger than I'd expected.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 Burnage wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
How good are reavers, shredder scourge and mandrakes?

In my limited opinion, Mandrakes are one of the best units in the Codex, Shredder Scourges are solid glass cannons against infantry heavy armies, and Reavers are a bit overrated but still very good in their specific niche.

what makes mandrakes so good? These are just the coolest looking models in the collection and I am thinking of adding a dark eldar force to my harlequins.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
How good are reavers, shredder scourge and mandrakes?

In my limited opinion, Mandrakes are one of the best units in the Codex, Shredder Scourges are solid glass cannons against infantry heavy armies, and Reavers are a bit overrated but still very good in their specific niche.

what makes mandrakes so good? These are just the coolest looking models in the collection and I am thinking of adding a dark eldar force to my harlequins.

-1 to hit and their 5++ alongside the 6+++ from PFP makes them some of our most durable non-Coven infantry. They're also some of our most damaging units both at range and in close combat, point for point - the Baleblast with its -1 AP and mortal wound potential in particular is great. Being able to Deep Strike for free is icing on the cake.

The only thing holding them back is their inability to gain Obsessions, but on the plus side that means they can fit easily into any Dark Eldar detachment.

 Burnage wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
How good are reavers, shredder scourge and mandrakes?

In my limited opinion, Mandrakes are one of the best units in the Codex, Shredder Scourges are solid glass cannons against infantry heavy armies, and Reavers are a bit overrated but still very good in their specific niche.

I did like shredder scourge but as time goes on i have to say they don't really do a lot. Maybe it was just a bad match up today but i'm thinking what with the new deep strike rules (turn 2 mostly) and due to short ranged units just getting destroyed i don't think shredder scourge really work. Even shredders in general might not work. Trueborn with blasters in venoms or raiders might work. Scourge with blasters or dark lance might work (dps for blasters and range for dark lance) but honestly more and more -1 to hit vs shooting armies like guard or tau is good as are anti-tank. The fact most DS is slow now means longer ranged fast or fairly durable units (dark lance, void lance and dissies) are actually pretty good. I'm not sure what we should use for anti-horde now that doesn't have to close (wyches, shredders, etc. mostly just die when they get there).

If i had to say in my last game vs guard with lots of flame units and very limited long ranged shooting i could've probably just used dissies and dark lances for the first 2 turns rather than trying to go into combat turn 2. I realized so much flame units close to me with so many flashlights would be bad news but perhaps i should've held back longer. Either way i think dark lance, void lance or dissie are on my 'next to buy' list. Anyway we'll see but i'm starting to think shredder scourge and bikes might be first to get axed very soon or i should wait to bring them in (or just flat out stop DS'ing them). If i do take bikes it will be to hold down some nasty ranged units for another unit to shoot or melee without as much worry or i may just go for covens units.

Mandrakes however sound like they have some promise only due to -1 to hit but the other stuff doesn't work. Sadly scourge and mandrakes are both considered mercenary units and therefore don't benefit from any of the 3 sub-faction rules.

I think shredders on trueborn might be decent however as was suggested while putting said unit in a venom or raider. Worth a shot right?

Mandrakes and Scourges are good enough to not need Obsessions, so that isn;t a negative at all.

I'm not a fan of shredders as well. Trueborn are overcosted and scourges are glass cannon which means investing 92 points for a unit that kills just a few infantries models on average rolls doesn't look a good deal. IMHO scourges are basically decent if you need a third FA choice for an outrider detachment and/or you lack anti tank since your list is mostly wych cult or coven stuff.

I prefer poisoned shots, grotesques or wyches to handle light infantries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:


Anyone have any experience using this weapon? I love the idea of a sniper-Archon, so I'd like to try and make it work.

- Anyway, the other Archon, Succubus and Lhamaeans proved surprisingly resilient. I was pretty aggressive with them, but they managed to survive every game and even killed Guilliman. The one thing I wasn't sure about was the Archon's Venom Blade. I'd taken it to balance the points, but I'd often find myself wishing I had an Agoniser for the AP or a Huskblade for the d3 damage. I mean, it definitely got some wounds in, but I felt that the Succubus and Lhamaeans were the real powerhouses in the group.

If I take a kabal battallion I usually play one of the archon in a very aggressive mode, with a blaster and phantasm granade launcher and on his own on a venom, sometimes he shares a trasnport with a succubus. If you have an army that also has an aggressive style he's a nice option. The blaster and the granade launcher can cause a lot of damage.

 Blackie wrote:

If I take a kabal battallion I usually play one of the archon in a very aggressive mode, with a blaster and phantasm granade launcher and on his own on a venom, sometimes he shares a trasnport with a succubus. If you have an army that also has an aggressive style he's a nice option. The blaster and the granade launcher can cause a lot of damage.

Do you think that could work with the Soul Seeker, though?

Well the relic has the same range of a blaster so yeah, I think it should be ok. It's not as versatile as the blaster but I'd definitely give it a try.

just noticed the raider is noted as being sold out online, sure hope it returns soon as I desperately need 3.

It's been going in and out of stock since the Codex was released.

The US store put more up last Monday and they were gone by Tuesday, IIRC.

I've got a question for you guys - how do you equip your Haemonculi? Electrocorrosive Whip seems to be the go-to melee weapon, but what about Ranged Weapons?
- Do you take the standard Stinger Pistol?
- Do you take the Liquifier Gun and hope for good AP rolls?
- Do you take the Hexrifle for some long-range shots (and for the same price as the standard pistol)?
- Do you take the Parasite's Kiss or Spirit Sting artefact pistols?


Also, what about Artefacts? If you don't take one of the aforementioned artefact pistols, do you take the Vexator Mask? The Helm of Spite? Something else? Nothing at all?

 Platuan4th wrote:
It's been going in and out of stock since the Codex was released.

The US store put more up last Monday and they were gone by Tuesday, IIRC.

weird that they are noted as sold out online rather then temporarily unavailable

So, what are peoples' thoughts on the importance of psychic defense for competitive viability? Namely, in peoples' minds, to what extent is the souping of Craftworld detachments for psyker/anti-psyker firepower worth prioritizing? Or is it something that can within reason be ignored entirely?

 Fafnir wrote:
So, what are peoples' thoughts on the importance of psychic defense for competitive viability? Namely, in peoples' minds, to what extent is the souping of Craftworld detachments for psyker/anti-psyker firepower worth prioritizing? Or is it something that can within reason be ignored entirely?

I don't leave home without a Farseer and Warlock. YMMV, but in my experience Doom and Jinx give such a huge power boost to the rest of the army that they're absolutely vital inclusions.

 Burnage wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
So, what are peoples' thoughts on the importance of psychic defense for competitive viability? Namely, in peoples' minds, to what extent is the souping of Craftworld detachments for psyker/anti-psyker firepower worth prioritizing? Or is it something that can within reason be ignored entirely?

I don't leave home without a Farseer and Warlock. YMMV, but in my experience Doom and Jinx give such a huge power boost to the rest of the army that they're absolutely vital inclusions.

For Competetive my list is BH with the Ravagers/RWJF's, Battalion of PoF coven for Haemon x2, Vex and Helm for Relics, 7-10 Grots and some Wracks, (spending 3 CP on relics), then Battalion CWE 3x5 Rangers, Warlocks/Farseer, spending the 1CP for more WL traits (PoF one is D3 command points, so you never lose CPs for doing it and you can gain +1/+2).

IMO if you are playing to win, you need CWE powers and Ranger, the Helm to force Perils is just really good as well.

 Alexonian wrote:
just noticed the raider is noted as being sold out online, sure hope it returns soon as I desperately need 3.

Have you tried looking on Amazon, ebay etc.?

e.g. :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warhammer-000-Dark-Eldar-Raider/dp/B004AFWNJW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526911980&sr=8-1&keywords=dark+eldar+raider

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40K-Dark-Eldar-Raider/352357083059?epid=1923156937&hash=item520a1e67b3:g:dCsAAOSwKwBa~JIn

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Alexonian wrote:
just noticed the raider is noted as being sold out online, sure hope it returns soon as I desperately need 3.

Have you tried looking on Amazon, ebay etc.?

e.g. :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Warhammer-000-Dark-Eldar-Raider/dp/B004AFWNJW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526911980&sr=8-1&keywords=dark+eldar+raider

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40K-Dark-Eldar-Raider/352357083059?epid=1923156937&hash=item520a1e67b3:g:dCsAAOSwKwBa~JIn

managed to snag 3 from firestormgames fortunately so I'm okay but thanks anyway

now I'm just waiting for GW to get some ravagers in and my Drukhari will be complete

Has anyone been running Red Grief Wyches? How do they fair?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

- The Ravager was absolutely devastating against infantry - in the first game it vaporised an entire Hellblaster squad in a single shooting phase. However, in spite of what the mathhammer apparently indicates, it was abysmal against vehicles?

It's not very fair to judge the disintegrator cannon as being ineffective against vehicles when you are firing a grand total of one of them. That's like saying, I shot a dark lance at a vehicle and it missed, so they are terrible against vehicles.

Shooting 9 disintegrator cannon shots at a vehicle might not do the job, but shooting 48 disintegerator cannon shots at a vehicle will kill it.

It takes 7 BH Aura boosted DC's to kill a Rhino, this cost 105pts (7x15)
It takes 5 BH Aura boosted DL's to kill a Rhino, this cost 100pts (5x20)

And thats why people take Dis Cannons, just as cheap and kills infantry much better

I mean, you still have to factor in the cost of the platform itself, which makes things a bit less one-sided.

 Fafnir wrote:
I mean, you still have to factor in the cost of the platform itself, which makes things a bit less one-sided.

Its the same platform...... Raider, Ravager, RWFJ.

I mean, in terms of cost. Needing more raw disintegrators to take down a tank means you need more things to actually hold them. Once you begin to factor that in, the point comparison becomes a little less one sided, since the higher concentration of raw firepower on a lance means you'll need to buy fewer platforms to get the destructive power. Disintegrators are still going to be the better weapon overall, but it means that lances won't be entirely without purpose.

 Fafnir wrote:
I mean, in terms of cost. Needing more raw disintegrators to take down a tank means you need more things to actually hold them. Once you begin to factor that in, the point comparison becomes a little less one sided, since the higher concentration of raw firepower on a lance means you'll need to buy fewer platforms to get the destructive power. Disintegrators are still going to be the better weapon overall, but it means that lances won't be entirely without purpose.

But 7 is nothing, normal DE armies so far are taking 15 or so. At least ones that i'm seeing, 3 Ravagers is 9, 2 Raiders, and 1-3 RWJF's would be 13-15

Wyldcarde wrote:

It's not very fair to judge the disintegrator cannon as being ineffective against vehicles when you are firing a grand total of one of them.

Apparently 3 Disintegrators = 1 Disintegrator. Who know?

Wyldcarde wrote:
Shooting 9 disintegrator cannon shots at a vehicle might not do the job, but shooting 48 disintegerator cannon shots at a vehicle will kill it.

So the Disintegrator Cannon is horribly inefficient, but apparently this is a point in its favour.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:

It's not very fair to judge the disintegrator cannon as being ineffective against vehicles when you are firing a grand total of one of them.

Apparently 3 Disintegrators = 1 Disintegrator. Who know?

Wyldcarde wrote:
Shooting 9 disintegrator cannon shots at a vehicle might not do the job, but shooting 48 disintegerator cannon shots at a vehicle will kill it.

So the Disintegrator Cannon is horribly inefficient, but apparently this is a point in its favour.

Its the same for the most part tho vs Lances, all vehicles takes many shots to kill now unless you get a couple lucky shots and even then you dont want to count on that. It will on average still take 2 DL Ravagers to kill 1 Rhino, where DIs cannons will need 1-2 more cannons to kill it, the big difference is, if he saves 1 Lance shot above average, then you just lost a lot more damage compare to him saving 1 DC shots.

Remember these weapons are for MC's as well and elite infantry, and many of those units have invuls, once you factor in invuls the DC becomes a lot better. Thats why it is being taken as a TAC weapon. But if you know you are fighting lots of tanks, then you might want to take a couple HWB's and Blasters as back up.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Its the same for the most part tho vs Lances, all vehicles takes many shots to kill now unless you get a couple lucky shots and even then you dont want to count on that. It will on average still take 2 DL Ravagers to kill 1 Rhino, where DIs cannons will need 1-2 more cannons to kill it, the big difference is, if he saves 1 Lance shot above average, then you just lost a lot more damage compare to him saving 1 DC shots.

Granted, but if you use Disintegrators then you basically need a third Ravager to do the same damage against vehicles.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Remember these weapons are for MC's as well and elite infantry, and many of those units have invuls, once you factor in invuls the DC becomes a lot better. Thats why it is being taken as a TAC weapon. But if you know you are fighting lots of tanks, then you might want to take a couple HWB's and Blasters as back up.

That's the thing though - my experience was that Disintegrators did naff-all to Monsters or vehicles with invulnerable saves. Even when firing at them over successive turns.

They seem to excel at killing elite infantry, but struggle to even scratch anything tougher. Wounding on 5s meant that virtually every shot bounced off (even before the Invulnerable Save), and even when one got through the meagre 2 damage barely registered.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Its the same for the most part tho vs Lances, all vehicles takes many shots to kill now unless you get a couple lucky shots and even then you dont want to count on that. It will on average still take 2 DL Ravagers to kill 1 Rhino, where DIs cannons will need 1-2 more cannons to kill it, the big difference is, if he saves 1 Lance shot above average, then you just lost a lot more damage compare to him saving 1 DC shots.

Granted, but if you use Disintegrators then you basically need a third Ravager to do the same damage against vehicles.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Remember these weapons are for MC's as well and elite infantry, and many of those units have invuls, once you factor in invuls the DC becomes a lot better. Thats why it is being taken as a TAC weapon. But if you know you are fighting lots of tanks, then you might want to take a couple HWB's and Blasters as back up.

That's the thing though - my experience was that Disintegrators did naff-all to Monsters or vehicles with invulnerable saves. Even when firing at them over successive turns.

They seem to excel at killing elite infantry, but struggle to even scratch anything tougher. Wounding on 5s meant that virtually every shot bounced off (even before the Invulnerable Save), and even when one got through the meagre 2 damage barely registered.

Yes it takes more, you should be using other weapons too tho, like missiles, HWB's, Blasters, etc... if you are taking only Dis Cannons as your only AT then yeah, its not going to be amazing at it, the point is they are almost as good as DL at killing tanks, so you dont need to take Lances, use cheaper other things are are just as good for the points if not better. Or take 1 DL Ravager for back up damage if you feel you rather have that.

No one is saying Dis are perfect, just in the current meta with low Tanks on the table they are a good pick, but if you are going against 6+ tanks, then yeah i would add something else.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Yes it takes more, you should be using other weapons too tho, like missiles, HWB's, Blasters, etc... if you are taking only Dis Cannons as your only AT then yeah, its not going to be amazing at it, the point is they are almost as good as DL at killing tanks, so you dont need to take Lances, use cheaper other things are are just as good for the points if not better. Or take 1 DL Ravager for back up damage if you feel you rather have that.

No one is saying Dis are perfect, just in the current meta with low Tanks on the table they are a good pick, but if you are going against 6+ tanks, then yeah i would add something else.

I'm not using Disintegrators as my only Anti-tank. All I'm saying is that so far Disintegrators have consistently been abysmal against vehicles.

Hence, I really wouldn't want to take many of them in place of Lances.