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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's kind-of bizarre to introduce a mechanic like that for only one faction. Why are GSC the only ones whose guns cause people to get exposed in crossfires?

The effect seems powerful enough, it's just weird that apparently having tyranid DNA suddenly makes your guns perform differently than everyone else's.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






yukishiro1 wrote:
It's kind-of bizarre to introduce a mechanic like that for only one faction. Why are GSC the only ones whose guns cause people to get exposed in crossfires?

The effect seems powerful enough, it's just weird that apparently having tyranid DNA suddenly makes your guns perform differently than everyone else's.


It feels like a core rule they thought of after 9th was launched. Sort of like 8th edition orks always hitting on a 6, which rolled into the main rules.

That being said, I also feel that folks wouldn't have been making these comments had the rules not been named very generic warfare conditions like crossfire and exposed. Had they named it hive mind tactics or whatever GSC specific name you could think of with the same rules applied, I'd wager nobody raises an eyebrow.

I for one am happy it is at least a very solid buff to the neophytes, who have always been tax units until now (doesn't hurt I own 120 of the devils) I am also eternally grateful that the rules are very straight forward and clean. I wanted deepstrike and infiltrate in place of ambush tokens which we already are rumored to get plus this added benefit also plays cleanly which is a must with a horde faction.

Meanwhile I look at the custodes and feel even more grateful we dodged that convoluted mind

   
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Madjob wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Madjob wrote:
Mixed feelings. It seems like a really fun mechanic to play around, and decently strong depending on how our shooting armory pans out (with most armies getting heavy revisions to profiles this edition, my hopes for Seismic Cannons are high). I really wish there was more of a benefit to charging an Exposed Target besides turning off overwatch and set to defend. Especially if Perfect Ambush is gone. I'm not ready to cry doom yet as there are plenty of potential avenues for them to reintroduce better charges out of deep strike, but that was our signature tool for melee deep strike and the name has gone to something completely different, which is alarming.
We're only seeing a small glimps here. Its doubtful that is the only stratagem that keys off a crossfire marker and I believe some rumor mentioned that GSC deepstrike shenanigans are moving to character abilities rather then being stratagems.


Of course we are, I did take pains to emphasize that there were plenty of avenues for them to include buffs for deep strike charges, but my main point was the name for what had previously been our main tool for deep strike charges now has very little to do with deep strike charges. That's a little worrying. Especially since we are still totally in the dark about how deep strike is going to work for us in this book, in an edition where mass deep strike is a hard thing to sell with reduced board sizes, forward deploying units controlling midfield early and denying deep strike, some of them with an increased range. Are we going to have any tools to deal with those obstacles to what I assume is still meant to be our main strategy?

Also the rumor you're mentioning was a complete load. Absolutely nothing in it has lined up with the official info so far.


The rumor he is referring to was the one that predicted a Custodes/GSC release in late 2020 and has been correct about everything so far.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




canonized wrote:
Madjob wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Madjob wrote:
Mixed feelings. It seems like a really fun mechanic to play around, and decently strong depending on how our shooting armory pans out (with most armies getting heavy revisions to profiles this edition, my hopes for Seismic Cannons are high). I really wish there was more of a benefit to charging an Exposed Target besides turning off overwatch and set to defend. Especially if Perfect Ambush is gone. I'm not ready to cry doom yet as there are plenty of potential avenues for them to reintroduce better charges out of deep strike, but that was our signature tool for melee deep strike and the name has gone to something completely different, which is alarming.
We're only seeing a small glimps here. Its doubtful that is the only stratagem that keys off a crossfire marker and I believe some rumor mentioned that GSC deepstrike shenanigans are moving to character abilities rather then being stratagems.


Of course we are, I did take pains to emphasize that there were plenty of avenues for them to include buffs for deep strike charges, but my main point was the name for what had previously been our main tool for deep strike charges now has very little to do with deep strike charges. That's a little worrying. Especially since we are still totally in the dark about how deep strike is going to work for us in this book, in an edition where mass deep strike is a hard thing to sell with reduced board sizes, forward deploying units controlling midfield early and denying deep strike, some of them with an increased range. Are we going to have any tools to deal with those obstacles to what I assume is still meant to be our main strategy?

Also the rumor you're mentioning was a complete load. Absolutely nothing in it has lined up with the official info so far.


The rumor he is referring to was the one that predicted a Custodes/GSC release in late 2020 and has been correct about everything so far.


He is not, he's referring to this rumor: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2021/09/rumors-custodes-and-genestealer-cults.html

Which, while none of the GSC stuff is overtly contradicted by what GW's shown so far, a lot of it doesn't jive (why wouldn't we have heard about the Saboteur's ambush bonus when that character was previewed?), and most of the Custodes stuff is flat out wrong so we can discard the GSC stuff as a consequence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 00:56:54


 
   
Made in ca
Missionary On A Mission






Not exactly sure if it will survive, but a unit of hand flamer acolytes using "lying in wait" to pinch in behind your opponent and sprinkle crossfire tokens all over while gifting "exsposed" to every unit between them and your army could be very fun.

Wonder how long these crossfire tokens last.

Sisters of Battle
Genestealer Cults
Daemons lots of Daemons
Daughters of Khaine
Bretonnians

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 dracpanzer wrote:
Not exactly sure if it will survive, but a unit of hand flamer acolytes using "lying in wait" to pinch in behind your opponent and sprinkle crossfire tokens all over while gifting "exsposed" to every unit between them and your army could be very fun.

Wonder how long these crossfire tokens last.
Since they last longer then a single phase the next logical point is probably our next command phase. Having them stick around for more then 1 turn would be broken.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

 dracpanzer wrote:
Not exactly sure if it will survive, but a unit of hand flamer acolytes using "lying in wait" to pinch in behind your opponent and sprinkle crossfire tokens all over while gifting "exsposed" to every unit between them and your army could be very fun.

Wonder how long these crossfire tokens last.


We do not yet know who can make the tokens.

   
Made in ca
Missionary On A Mission






 Niiai wrote:

We do not yet know who can make the tokens.


We don't know much of anything about it yet. Just enjoying the moment of speculation while it "still?" appears GSC might be getting some good fun rules.

Sisters of Battle
Genestealer Cults
Daemons lots of Daemons
Daughters of Khaine
Bretonnians

 
   
Made in nz
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



New Zealand

Thinking about it, if you are firing at a unit of 11+ models, a single handflamer gives you enough hits to put a crossfire token on them, meaning you can split fire pretty efficiently against larger units. And if you string out a unit on arrival, you should be able to qualify a wide arc of your units for the 'exposed' bonus, other than flankers.
I wonder if we get any assault buffs, or DS improvements, so that we have a better chance of following up on these improved shooting rules.Otherwise we might as well be called 'gunslinger cults' because the purestrains will be irrelevant again
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






Hand flamers are not blast, so while you could roll 5 or 6 hits there is no guarantee no matter how large the target unit is.

I'd imagine the easiest way to get tokens will be with multi damage weapons like grenade launchers etc.

   
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Fresh-Faced New User




There is simply no way that Acolytes will have the Crossfire special rule. You would be guaranteed to proc. the effect with a single squad of five with flamers. That being said a min squad of neophytes with flamers is extremely likely to proc crossfire against two units(average 7 flamer hits and 8 shotgun/autogun hits)
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




canonized wrote:
There is simply no way that Acolytes will have the Crossfire special rule. You would be guaranteed to proc. the effect with a single squad of five with flamers. That being said a min squad of neophytes with flamers is extremely likely to proc crossfire against two units(average 7 flamer hits and 8 shotgun/autogun hits)


I would wait on assuming we are allowed to equip a 10 man squad with two of the same special weapon until we see it in writing, given the trends in 9e so far. It's good odds we'll be limited to one of each (Webber, GL, Flamer) per 10 men because that's what can be built from a single box.
   
Made in ca
Missionary On A Mission






Acolytes can each upgrade to hand flamers. Neophytes get the special weapons.

Sisters of Battle
Genestealer Cults
Daemons lots of Daemons
Daughters of Khaine
Bretonnians

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Madjob wrote:
canonized wrote:
There is simply no way that Acolytes will have the Crossfire special rule. You would be guaranteed to proc. the effect with a single squad of five with flamers. That being said a min squad of neophytes with flamers is extremely likely to proc crossfire against two units(average 7 flamer hits and 8 shotgun/autogun hits)


I would wait on assuming we are allowed to equip a 10 man squad with two of the same special weapon until we see it in writing, given the trends in 9e so far. It's good odds we'll be limited to one of each (Webber, GL, Flamer) per 10 men because that's what can be built from a single box.


Good point. In fact, now that you’ve mentioned it, the crossfire changes might give the webber a place in GSC lists. Long range guaranteed hits without regard to actually wounding kinda makes sense in the context of crossfire.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/07 01:39:07


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Pricing is 80 points for the saboteur, which doesn't feel worth it.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






Madjob wrote:
Pricing is 80 points for the saboteur, which doesn't feel worth it.


Oof, thats not a great sign for a GEQ support model most likely in the elite slot. I mean, a succubus post nerf is 80 lmao. A Haemonculus is 75 and has an aura that adds +1 toughness, plus auto heals.

No idea why GW overvalues GSC characters like this. I mean, I'll pray for the best, but after seeing her profile and weapons/abilities there is no way in hell that model is worth 80pts. Cut that in half and I still might not take her. I REALLY hope the other support models went down but this is a warning shot for sure.

   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Big if, but if she has crossfire she will be worth it with 2d3 blast D3 vs vehicles and monsters.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Niiai wrote:
Big if, but if she has crossfire she will be worth it with 2d3 blast D3 vs vehicles and monsters.


Yea that was my other takeaway, if she has Crossfire she could be worth bringing, not amazing but useable - assuming base bs3+ she'd hit on 2+ and wound most vehicle targets on 2+/3+.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

If, she is D3. So one hit means a marker for enabling as well. But +3/+3 or +2/+2 or some combination is quite strong.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Niiai wrote:
If, she is D3. So one hit means a marker for enabling as well. But +3/+3 or +2/+2 or some combination is quite strong.


It's only 2D3 shots, it's not going to get out of control, especially at 80 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/08 17:35:49


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Madjob wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
If, she is D3. So one hit means a marker for enabling as well. But +3/+3 or +2/+2 or some combination is quite strong.


It's only 2D3 shots, it's not going to get out of control, especially at 80 points.

It's "only" 2D3 shots...

Reminder:




So, 80 points gets you a model that is -1 to be hit against ranged attacks and is untargetable while within Area Terrain features (unless the enemy models are within 12" of it) and gains an additional +1 to its save vs ranged attacks while in cover. She can throw demo charge markers out that she can opt to detonate alongside of her normal ranged attack to stack some not insubstantial damage out against things that might come after her or an objective she's camped around.

They also strongly imply that she's an Infiltrating model, which is just...yeeeeeeeep.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/08 17:58:56


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





As with most of these things, we need to wait for the full rules before making final judgements. That said, IF we have most of the rules already, then she is putting out fractionally more damage to VEHICLES and MONSTERS than a Ridgerunner does, for fractionally more points, but there are many things the Ridgerunner has that she does not (and we know for certain that a Ridgerunner benefits from Crossfire).

So, count me in the group of "not impressed with points cost".

That said, there may be other things still that make her worth it. Maybe she improves the effectiveness of Blast weapons in the army. Maybe she can set up her explosives from 24" away and not give up any moving or shooting to do so. Maybe her explosives prevent units from performing actions and inflict "fight last". There's enough "maybes" here that she could be worth 80pts, but based on what is currently being shown, I would hazard that's a "no".

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Madjob wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
If, she is D3. So one hit means a marker for enabling as well. But +3/+3 or +2/+2 or some combination is quite strong.


It's only 2D3 shots, it's not going to get out of control, especially at 80 points.

It's "only" 2D3 shots...

Reminder:




So, 80 points gets you a model that is -1 to be hit against ranged attacks and is untargetable while within Area Terrain features (unless the enemy models are within 12" of it) and gains an additional +1 to its save vs ranged attacks while in cover. She can throw demo charge markers out that she can opt to detonate alongside of her normal ranged attack to stack some not insubstantial damage out against things that might come after her or an objective she's camped around.

They also strongly imply that she's an Infiltrating model, which is just...yeeeeeeeep.


You have a lot of respect for those defensive abilities, but I'll remind you it's probably on a T3 4W 5+ frame. We are the glass cannon army, in theory anyways, so first and foremost any GSC unit should be looked at for it's offensive power relative to points spent, survivability second. And I certainly hope she has forward deploy, and that our codex has a healthy amount of forward deploy in addition to her, to make up for the fact that we can't play the game the way out army was designed to in this edition without already having a strong midboard presence T1.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






If you can get her in a spot where she benefits from exposed She will be solid verse vehicles and monsters but still not great verse infantry, which is fine, however I would have figured that limitation would keep her much cheaper.

Also the mine still kinda sucks unless theres more to it since it takes a turns shooting to deploy, there could be a cult trait that allows for shooting and actions though however. Either way rules as written they can still just run right past it or over it so long as they end their move over 3" from it which annoys me, targets should remain eligible to target with it for the entire phase once coming into range at any point during their movement, even if they move past it's 3" range.

I am still not sold on the cost though since a ridge runner (implied by the crossfire diagram to benefit from the new rules) currently costs less and threatens more stuff, that can easily change though.

Remember that her explosives some how get 3 times less effective against none vehicle none monster targets. Most vehicles used currently have damage reduction -1 or an invuln. With 4 shots on average shes still unlikely to kill a buggy/raider/dreadnought/deathguard demon engine etc. But she will likely finish targets as she will likely come in from reserve on turns 2+ anyway. Imagine shooting her at the plethora of multiwound infantry/bikes that currently are in the game as well, I mean she absolutely sucks verse those.

I can't see deploying her forward turn 1 very often though as it lets them play around her too easily and probably give away VP's for the likely assassinate, a redeploy makes this very interesting though.

She is looking better upon the crossfire reveal though, but then again so does anything with a gun on it. Will need to see the cost of her competition still.


As an aside, I would wager that nearly everything with a gun is getting crossfire. I think some folks are over reading into what will or won't get it. I am betting purestrains, metamorphs and abbs lack it and possibly brood bros since GW hates them but everything else will likely have the crossfire mechanic.

No idea why some folks think acolytes would lack the crossfire mechanic, it would make zero sense thematically and mechanically. I mean, it is looking like a real joke of a hurdle to activate. The odd grenade launcher here or their, or autocanon plinking just needs a hit.

Either way it has me excited to play shootier versions of the cult!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yarium wrote:


That said, there may be other things still that make her worth it. Maybe she improves the effectiveness of Blast weapons in the army. Maybe she can set up her explosives from 24" away and not give up any moving or shooting to do so. Maybe her explosives prevent units from performing actions and inflict "fight last". There's enough "maybes" here that she could be worth 80pts, but based on what is currently being shown, I would hazard that's a "no".


Reading the article and her fluff, it had me thinking how cool it would be if she buffed blasting charges to strength 4, or maybe gave them an AP -1 to units nearby.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/08 18:36:17


   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Is she so much vorse vs t7 dreadoughts?

2d3 shots d3
vs
1d3 shots d1d6

5 point difference

   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Madjob wrote:

You have a lot of respect for those defensive abilities, but I'll remind you it's probably on a T3 4W 5+ frame.

She literally has an ability that makes her untargetable by ranged weapons, if she's in an Area Terrain feature...assuming whatever shoots at her isn't in 12". And then she still gets a -1 modifier to the hit rolls and an additional +1 to saves.

It's pretty hard to pretend that is not really a good defensive ability.
We are the glass cannon army, in theory anyways, so first and foremost any GSC unit should be looked at for it's offensive power relative to points spent, survivability second. And I certainly hope she has forward deploy, and that our codex has a healthy amount of forward deploy in addition to her, to make up for the fact that we can't play the game the way out army was designed to in this edition without already having a strong midboard presence T1.

Every army is a "glass cannon army" in 9E...at least that's what the interwebs would have you believe.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:

She literally has an ability that makes her untargetable by ranged weapons, if she's in an Area Terrain feature...assuming whatever shoots at her isn't in 12". And then she still gets a -1 modifier to the hit rolls and an additional +1 to saves.

It's pretty hard to pretend that is not really a good defensive ability.


It depends. -1 to hit and bonuses on cover? Of course, solid, pretty common but solid. The value decreases on an inherently more kill-able profile though, which as I said: T3 and 5+ save normally. As far as the terrain hiding goes, well that's just Character protection except with terrain instead of other units in your army. Now they're not exactly the same of course, there's give and take - this has far more forgiving qualifications (doesn't matter where she is relative position to the enemy shooting her, you don't have to pay for said meat shields, and they can't be shot off exposing her), but a very trivial way to turn it off (walk closer to the unit that probably is already inside the neutral board area). That said she is obviously likely to be a Character herself, so she can overlap those protections, but it still doesn't feel like a game changer given the defensive profile she's rocking.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

She is sometimes reffered to as ridge runner number 10.

   
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Brainy Zoanthrope





Her mine is mortal wounds. Dr 1 won't save them. I can imagine a situation where 3 of these bad girls can lock down a table quarter
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





dreadlybrew wrote:
Her mine is mortal wounds. Dr 1 won't save them. I can imagine a situation where 3 of these bad girls can lock down a table quarter
The mine is mostly useless as you need to end your movement within 3" and unless there are strats (certainly possible) its not really a ranged attack. Its most likely use is charge deterrent on an objective.
The "gun' is what will decide if the unit is usable.
   
 
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