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Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






Yea you need to factor in the 6+ save.

It's even worse verse things with a 5++ like DE raiders, although it still works out to needing 3 turns to kill one on average.

I just hate how they wrote the mines rules. Should have been like aircraft bombs, when a unit triggers it within 3" role a die for each model in the target unit up to a maximum of 10 and on a 4+ they suffer that many mortals. Done.

Verse vehicles and monsters role 5 dice only they cause mortals on 2+

The way they wrote it infantry can easily weather it with minimal damage and if you role a 1 verse tanks its a total dud.

Whats even more bizarre is the fact it is designed to set off more often on bikers but still only does a single mortal to them lol.

Oh well, hopefully shes at least cheap because she does still have fun rules despite them being overly complex with minimal impact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ordana wrote:
A marine surviving stepping on an anti tank mine is rather funny...

Would just being a blanket 4 mortal wounds really be to much?


Honestly this is also another simple solution. Letting the mine go off on a 2+ for any target and causing a flat 4 mortals. Would also scare off characters that way, whats funny about the rules now is any old infantry character can walk over it and only takes a single mortal on a 4+.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 02:11:02


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Yea for having to take a turn dedicated to laying the mine, it's really underwhelming. She's probably not going to deploy on the table t1, so t2 maybe she gets to drop it and that assumes she is allowed to DS somewhere useful and drop it immediately. She really just seems better starting on the board and using her shooting the entire time.

But there's parts of the picture we may yet be missing.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the way this reads:


You roll a D6 for each model within the 3" range of the mine, right?

Wouldn't that mean it can do multiple mortal wounds to units, not "just one"?

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something but looking at this from the perspective of throwing it into a chokepoint near an objective or the like it seems like it can definitely play the part of deterrence.
   
Made in fi
Happy Imperial Citizen




Finland

Str 8, AP -3 and Damage 3 is very nice to Ork vehicles. no ramshackle for you sir
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

 Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but the way this reads:


You roll a D6 for each model within the 3" range of the mine, right?

Wouldn't that mean it can do multiple mortal wounds to units, not "just one"?

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something but looking at this from the perspective of throwing it into a chokepoint near an objective or the like it seems like it can definitely play the part of deterrence.


I think you are right. It also can hit Friendly's. So you can't just plant one in your group. (Well, I guess you could.)
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but the way this reads:


You roll a D6 for each model within the 3" range of the mine, right?

Wouldn't that mean it can do multiple mortal wounds to units, not "just one"?

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something but looking at this from the perspective of throwing it into a chokepoint near an objective or the like it seems like it can definitely play the part of deterrence.
Yes. but 40k is a game of (technically) perfect information. A remotely competent opponent isn't going to put 10 models within 3" of the bomb. Outside of using it for charge defence where are you going to force your opponent to eat it with a bunch of models? If its in a chokepoint you stop infront of it and move across the next turn (yes this is technically a small win). If its on an objective just 1 guy needs to be in range.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

What if you have models standing on an objective and your opponents creatures only have melee weapons?

How about placing it between two terrain pieces as tanks can not drive over terrain pieces?

Corner cases. Fun. Probably not strong.

   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Niiai wrote:
What if you have models standing on an objective and your opponents creatures only have melee weapons?

How about placing it between two terrain pieces as tanks can not drive over terrain pieces?

Corner cases. Fun. Probably not strong.


Placing it between two pieces of terrain forming a narrow pass as you illustrate is probably the best use I can think of. Unfortunately it also reads as needing an enemy unit within 3" at the end of those phases. Which means you could drive over it and so long as you move more then 3" past it, it won't fulfill the requirement to detonate it. Again, it's such horrible rules writing.

The other example you gave is also possibly interesting however a couple things again. First, as you noted earlier it can also kill your own stuff and if your 1 wound obsec verse 2 wound obsec this is potentially a bad move. But ignoring your own friendlies, they could still charge in a chain so a minimal amount of units are within threat range at the end of assault, then use pile ins and consolidate moves to swamp the objective.

I love the idea of sappers placing mines, but in a game like 40k that has zero fog of war, the rules really need to be written in a simple streamlined manner.

Example:

Any enemy unit that moves within 3" takes a mortal on the role of a 4+. Roll a die for every model in the unit up to a maximum of 10. For vehicles bikes and monsters roll 1 die, that unit suffers 4 mortal wounds on a the roll of a 2+

I am sure even that has some issue and isn't ideal but I haven't really put any time or play testing into it either and personally I think it would work better.

I'd also have let her place a mine anywhere outside the enemy deployment zone during the deployment phase of the GSC army. Just let her place the single mine and possibly a strat to place a second. This way she can be in reserve or in your own deployment and still have the impact, without forgoing her shooting to boot.

Obviously points matter here, if shes 40 points she'll be fine anyway. I just really like the idea and wish it was executed in a way where my savvy play group won't minimize it's impact before we ever even roll a die

   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope





Replacing cp with character abilities is pretty dope in my book. Purestrains getting cult benefits probably means bladed cog is losing +1 invuln. But that would be pretty neat.

Also made props to regular tyranid genestealers getting 4 attacks each. Thats gonna be dirty.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






dreadlybrew wrote:
Replacing cp with character abilities is pretty dope in my book. Purestrains getting cult benefits probably means bladed cog is losing +1 invuln. But that would be pretty neat.

Also made props to regular tyranid genestealers getting 4 attacks each. Thats gonna be dirty.


I just ask that everything works together in a fun unified way and stuff isn't over cost. I don't want them to be over tuned like my DE. Somewhere between Necrons and Sisters would make me smile for sure. I like having to think harder for my wins, but not at the point where we are now where I'm just banging my head against the wall.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/

Toughness bump for Acolytes and Cult Icon has been reworked to be a mini-Cult Reinforcements (D3 model replenish instead of D6), presumably every turn? It might require an Action in the command phase, if it does then Cult Icons took a big hit. I'm frankly not a fan of the toughness boost either as it will probably lead to a point bump on Acolytes, T3>T4 on a 5+ save does not matter much in the current environment, Acolytes will still feel like they're made of paper and will trade less efficiently at a higher PPM.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Madjob wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/

Toughness bump for Acolytes and Cult Icon has been reworked to be a mini-Cult Reinforcements (D3 model replenish instead of D6), presumably every turn? It might require an Action in the command phase, if it does then Cult Icons took a big hit. I'm frankly not a fan of the toughness boost either as it will probably lead to a point bump on Acolytes, T3>T4 on a 5+ save does not matter much in the current environment, Acolytes will still feel like they're made of paper and will trade less efficiently at a higher PPM.


T4 is WAY better than T3. Gives a comparative -1 to wound for every strength of weapon except S5 and S8+. New Cult Icon is good assuming it doesn’t take an action to complete; what would make you think it takes an action?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/25 17:04:58


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





getting d3 models back in a unit where you remove them by buckets feels meh?
I would much rather have re-rolls 1's.

Tho it opens up room for gaining 'extra movement' with using the new models to creep closer to the enemy.

But if this means Acolytes become more expensive I'm afraid they will follow Ork Boys and get priced out of existance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/25 18:25:35


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




canonized wrote:
Madjob wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/

Toughness bump for Acolytes and Cult Icon has been reworked to be a mini-Cult Reinforcements (D3 model replenish instead of D6), presumably every turn? It might require an Action in the command phase, if it does then Cult Icons took a big hit. I'm frankly not a fan of the toughness boost either as it will probably lead to a point bump on Acolytes, T3>T4 on a 5+ save does not matter much in the current environment, Acolytes will still feel like they're made of paper and will trade less efficiently at a higher PPM.


T4 is WAY better than T3. Gives a comparative -1 to wound for every strength of weapon except S5 and S8+. New Cult Icon is good assuming it doesn’t take an action to complete; what would make you think it takes an action?


At 8ppm, presumably going to 9ppm, it matters very little. If they stay 8ppm I'll happily take it, of course, but I doubt that will be the case. I am only hypothesizing on the action part, but the actual rules clipping is extremely sparse and leaves what "summoning the cult" means to the text of the article, which leads me to believe there's more wording there and opens the possibility of it requiring an action.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User





I don't see the Cult Icon's reroll 1s as a big loss. Since we're working with the present information, you'd still have pauper princess for your rerolls (hits not misses).
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I like the idea of models pouring out of every dark corner on the table to reinforce. Like some mole menn.

The game mechanic is not that good as units get wiped all the time. (Yet Necrons somehow manages it.) I hope it is either not to expansive or very viable.

   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






 Ordana wrote:

But if this means Acolytes become more expensive I'm afraid they will follow Ork Boys and get priced out of existance.


This sums up my concerns too. There is also the question of Metamorphs as well. They presumably will get the toughness bump as well but they are already pricey.

On the plus-side, it does lend a bit of credence to the rumor of Aberrants going to T5. I think the icon rework should be good too. Right now it is fairly pointless on anything other than an Acolyte squad (Neophytes generally don't want to be in melee, Metamorphs are generally taken in smaller units) and entirely pointless if you are playing as Pauper Princes. It makes me wonder if the Iconward will have a similar ability since he is basically carrying a much larger icon.

Also regarding the earlier discussion regarding the Saboteur, I think the mine ability is probably going to be best used as a melee tool. Drop it in an ongoing combat (say after wrapping a vehicle with Neophytes/Brood Brothers) and detonate at earliest opportunity. The extra damage against vehicles may also prove relevant when T'au drop, as some of their larger battlesuits may get the Dreadknight treatment and swap their monster keyword for the vehicle one.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






It specifically calls out the D3 in regard to Acolytes which makes me assume Neophytes will get D6 models back.

This isn't as bad as you may think, as a Necron player I can tell you that stealing objectives in the command phase is a really big deal. Of course it will depend on how the models are returned to the unit. But GW has a sloppy track record here.

The T4 is also pretty massive. I mean, your reducing incoming damage from bolt weapons by 25% and las weapons by 33% and anything greater but not S8 by 20%. So even if they jump from 8 to 9ppm thats only a 12.5% increase in cost for such improved durability. Now, of course they were priced high at 8ppm before and probably should have been 7 so I think it will put them right where they should be.

If the icons are 10 points your probably auto taking them on 10+ model acolytes and neophytes. The ability to cheat forward onto points and the fact the icons would repay you after a single use is just too good. Especially if trucks become a staple as your probably surviving with the units inside them, but losing models in wrecks only to bring them back and cheat them closer in the command phase.

Obvious this all depends on costs though.

   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

If units of 20 is a thing then you can use the banner to bring stuff back. Patriarch makes them fearless. But most of my units drive cars... And that stops at 10.

   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






 Red Corsair wrote:
It specifically calls out the D3 in regard to Acolytes which makes me assume Neophytes will get D6 models back.


I suppose there is precedent with the Chaos Daemon Icons (though those currently work differently from what the community article described for our icons). I believe they have some units that get back D6 models (Daemonettes), some D3 models (I think Bloodletters and Plague Bearers), and some a single model (Blood Crushers).

As another bit of speculation, I wonder if the summon the cult action will be replacing the current psionic summoning stratagem (or possibly replace psionic blast as a psychic power)? Say instead of summoning a new unit it allows a psyker to summon the cult to replenish a unit?

 Red Corsair wrote:

Obvious this all depends on costs though.


This is probably going to sum up the fate of the entire book. I'm hoping that pricing will be evenhanded, but I'm a bit worried that things will either be too expensive or too cheap... Too expensive is what we are dealing with now, but too cheap could cause us to be a nightmare akin to an unholy union of Druhkari lethality with potentially Ork-like light vehicles (assuming Rugged Construction will go to -1 damage like Ramshakle or Disgustingly Resilient).
   
Made in nz
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



New Zealand

Obviously though, Strat_N8, we wouldn't take advantage of a situation where some of our models are too cheap - GSC players are far too noble minded for that!
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Strat_N8 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
It specifically calls out the D3 in regard to Acolytes which makes me assume Neophytes will get D6 models back.


I suppose there is precedent with the Chaos Daemon Icons (though those currently work differently from what the community article described for our icons). I believe they have some units that get back D6 models (Daemonettes), some D3 models (I think Bloodletters and Plague Bearers), and some a single model (Blood Crushers).

As another bit of speculation, I wonder if the summon the cult action will be replacing the current psionic summoning stratagem (or possibly replace psionic blast as a psychic power)? Say instead of summoning a new unit it allows a psyker to summon the cult to replenish a unit?

 Red Corsair wrote:

Obvious this all depends on costs though.


This is probably going to sum up the fate of the entire book. I'm hoping that pricing will be evenhanded, but I'm a bit worried that things will either be too expensive or too cheap... Too expensive is what we are dealing with now, but too cheap could cause us to be a nightmare akin to an unholy union of Druhkari lethality with potentially Ork-like light vehicles (assuming Rugged Construction will go to -1 damage like Ramshakle or Disgustingly Resilient).


I think it’s more likely to replace the current “Cult Reinforcements” stratagem that lets us bring back D6 models from a Troops unit at the start of the movement phase. I’d be sad to see that one go. I typically get a lot of use out of it. It allows acolytes to absorb a near-fatal blow and come back the next turn with all/most of their mining weapons.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




canonized wrote:


I think it’s more likely to replace the current “Cult Reinforcements” stratagem that lets us bring back D6 models from a Troops unit at the start of the movement phase. I’d be sad to see that one go. I typically get a lot of use out of it. It allows acolytes to absorb a near-fatal blow and come back the next turn with all/most of their mining weapons.


It could return, just altering the amount of summoned models on a unit with an icon. I'd be just as unsurprised to see it gone though.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Crossfire article
Unprepared foes find themselves trapped in a cage of gunfire from all sides, as cultists spring up from prepared positions to blanket them in bullets. Whenever a unit with the Crossfire keyword shoots and scores at least five hits (or a hit with a Damage characteristic other than 1) their target gains a crossfire marker.

Once an enemy unit has a crossfire marker, it becomes especially vulnerable to attack. First, any further Crossfire units shooting at them add 1 to their hit rolls. Then, if the target is Exposed, they’re in for a world of hurt.

How does a target become Exposed? If you draw a line from the attacking unit’s base to another friendly Crossfire model within sight, and that line passes over the targeted unit, that targeted unit is Exposed.

Attackers add 1 to their wound rolls against the Exposed unit, and if the attackers are within 12” of their target, they ignore enemy cover too. Enemies taking cover in Obscuring terrain have some protection, but unsuspecting foes will fall victim to the Cult’s diabolic pincer attacks.

If that sounds powerful already, you’d be right, and that’s far from all the Genestealer Cults can do with their Crossfire units. Coming under such heavy fire often renders enemies completely unable to defend against an incoming charge and gives their attackers plenty of time to hack away before risking retaliation.




You can even upgrade one of your units to be able to use the Crossfire rule as soon as they arrive from Reinforcements, meaning that your enemies are never safe from the Genestealer Cults.



If this is what they're doing for GSC, I'm cautiously optimistic to see what Guard and Tau are getting.
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




If acolytes get Crossfire keyword, then a few hand flamers are enough to tag the enemy with Crossfire and enable the Fight Last stratagem.

And based on the wording, using hand flamer Overwatch + Coordinated Assault in the opponent's turn should be possible. Interesting...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 14:45:52


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mixed feelings. It seems like a really fun mechanic to play around, and decently strong depending on how our shooting armory pans out (with most armies getting heavy revisions to profiles this edition, my hopes for Seismic Cannons are high). I really wish there was more of a benefit to charging an Exposed Target besides turning off overwatch and set to defend. Especially if Perfect Ambush is gone. I'm not ready to cry doom yet as there are plenty of potential avenues for them to reintroduce better charges out of deep strike, but that was our signature tool for melee deep strike and the name has gone to something completely different, which is alarming.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Madjob wrote:
Mixed feelings. It seems like a really fun mechanic to play around, and decently strong depending on how our shooting armory pans out (with most armies getting heavy revisions to profiles this edition, my hopes for Seismic Cannons are high). I really wish there was more of a benefit to charging an Exposed Target besides turning off overwatch and set to defend. Especially if Perfect Ambush is gone. I'm not ready to cry doom yet as there are plenty of potential avenues for them to reintroduce better charges out of deep strike, but that was our signature tool for melee deep strike and the name has gone to something completely different, which is alarming.
We're only seeing a small glimps here. Its doubtful that is the only stratagem that keys off a crossfire marker and I believe some rumor mentioned that GSC deepstrike shenanigans are moving to character abilities rather then being stratagems.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Well, considering the article shows you paying for "A Perfect Ambush", I wager you can pay points for ambush table fuckery.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I like the idea of enemies blobbing up to avoid getting cross fiered.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
Madjob wrote:
Mixed feelings. It seems like a really fun mechanic to play around, and decently strong depending on how our shooting armory pans out (with most armies getting heavy revisions to profiles this edition, my hopes for Seismic Cannons are high). I really wish there was more of a benefit to charging an Exposed Target besides turning off overwatch and set to defend. Especially if Perfect Ambush is gone. I'm not ready to cry doom yet as there are plenty of potential avenues for them to reintroduce better charges out of deep strike, but that was our signature tool for melee deep strike and the name has gone to something completely different, which is alarming.
We're only seeing a small glimps here. Its doubtful that is the only stratagem that keys off a crossfire marker and I believe some rumor mentioned that GSC deepstrike shenanigans are moving to character abilities rather then being stratagems.


Of course we are, I did take pains to emphasize that there were plenty of avenues for them to include buffs for deep strike charges, but my main point was the name for what had previously been our main tool for deep strike charges now has very little to do with deep strike charges. That's a little worrying. Especially since we are still totally in the dark about how deep strike is going to work for us in this book, in an edition where mass deep strike is a hard thing to sell with reduced board sizes, forward deploying units controlling midfield early and denying deep strike, some of them with an increased range. Are we going to have any tools to deal with those obstacles to what I assume is still meant to be our main strategy?

Also the rumor you're mentioning was a complete load. Absolutely nothing in it has lined up with the official info so far.
   
 
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