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At BS 2+, and with the ability to lay her mine and still shoot, I think she’ll work. I’m assuming she’ll get good use out of at least 1 stratagem too. 24” range is rough but manageable. It sits firmly in the classic GSC “perfect when it comes out to play, but then is surprisingly immobile. Her range will be a better deterrent for movement than her bomb ever will be.

That’s about four dead GEQ, if targeting a unit of 11+ models.
And it’s just over one dead MEQ for a squad of 10 or less. Three and a half wounds if they’re at 11+.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Madjob wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Madjob wrote:
If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...

It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?

Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.

While evidently forgetting it does less damage against every target that is vulnerable to Blast.

While still remembering that it has variable damage and a fairly high S.

It's a S8 AP-3 D1(3 v Monster or Vehicle) attack with a 24" range on a BS2+ model that is untargetable while within an Area Terrain feature unless the firing model is within 12".

I get that you seem to think it's absolute trash or whatever, but its nearest comparison is the Astra Militarum's "Master of Ordnance". MoO has way more range, but their Artillery Barrage is once per game...and still not as good as this model can be.

Master of Ordinance is a terrible comparison. His entire shtick is being a logistics buff for backfield artillery using his reroll to hit aura. He's also 35 points lol.

dreadlybrew wrote:If the primus still only has a 5+ with no invuln hes still worthless in melee

He sorta has an invulnerable save with the current Unquestioning Loyalty rules. The current Primus doesn't hit particularly hard so it generally isn't worth risking him in melee vs using him for buffs (plus minions are expensive).

The new bonesword is similar to one of the current relic ones, so he might now have enough bite to make wading into combat worthwhile.

shamroll wrote:If the sabatour really doesn't have Crossfire, then it is going to be even more difficult to make her worth it. Crossfire only benefits other Crossfire units and 80 points seems better well spent on a ridgerunner which should get the Crossfire benefit.

Lore-wise it makes sense that she doesn't have it, as none of her weapons are the sort that would force someone to keep their head down in cover (if anything, the opposite). From a purely functional standpoint it is sad, but of the effects that have been previewed the only part she really wants is the +1 to wound rolls.

Given the datasheets released so far, I am thinking that the Crossfire rule is probably going to be exclusive to the Neophyte-based units (Jackals, Neophytes, Goliath Truck, Goliath Rockgrinder, Achilles Ridgerunner) and maybe in-book Brood Brothers. I would also not be surprised if the Hivecult creed ability is re-written around the crossfire mechanic (I'm guessing their current signature stratagem may change from a blanket +1 to hit after wounding a target to instead give a unit without the crossfire keyword said keyword).

I suppose as one final thought, we know the upcoming mission pack for 2022 is going to be less friendly to vehicles than the current one. As much as I love mech, we may very well end up having to lean heavily into our infantry going into the new meta (post-book) which would also make the Reductus a bit easier to keep safe.

I wonder if the idea of the Mine for the Reductus might be more to ruin a piece of scenery for hiding in - instead of allowing a handy place to hide, it becomes a rather hazardous spot, especially if a squad and their buff character are wanting to shelter in there... If you can get it out there nice and early, it might make someone re-think dashing into the spot that they can then snipe or charge from

hangnailnz wrote:I wonder if the idea of the Mine for the Reductus might be more to ruin a piece of scenery for hiding in - instead of allowing a handy place to hide, it becomes a rather hazardous spot, especially if a squad and their buff character are wanting to shelter in there... If you can get it out there nice and early, it might make someone re-think dashing into the spot that they can then snipe or charge from

Thats a fair idea, however D3 mortals really isn't that scary. I think the best use is still probably to sap an objective, it will at least help you clear it later. But an average of 2 wounds isn't really going to deter anyone from trying to advance into terrain and grab board control IMO. At least she doesn't give up her shooting either, so it's kind of a neat bonus, maybe a strat will make it much more impactful though.

Strat_N8 wrote:

dreadlybrew wrote:If the primus still only has a 5+ with no invuln hes still worthless in melee

He sorta has an invulnerable save with the current Unquestioning Loyalty rules. The current Primus doesn't hit particularly hard so it generally isn't worth risking him in melee vs using him for buffs (plus minions are expensive).

The new bonesword is similar to one of the current relic ones, so he might now have enough bite to make wading into combat worthwhile.

shamroll wrote:If the sabatour really doesn't have Crossfire, then it is going to be even more difficult to make her worth it. Crossfire only benefits other Crossfire units and 80 points seems better well spent on a ridgerunner which should get the Crossfire benefit.

Lore-wise it makes sense that she doesn't have it, as none of her weapons are the sort that would force someone to keep their head down in cover (if anything, the opposite). From a purely functional standpoint it is sad, but of the effects that have been previewed the only part she really wants is the +1 to wound rolls.

Given the datasheets released so far, I am thinking that the Crossfire rule is probably going to be exclusive to the Neophyte-based units (Jackals, Neophytes, Goliath Truck, Goliath Rockgrinder, Achilles Ridgerunner) and maybe in-book Brood Brothers. I would also not be surprised if the Hivecult creed ability is re-written around the crossfire mechanic (I'm guessing their current signature stratagem may change from a blanket +1 to hit after wounding a target to instead give a unit without the crossfire keyword said keyword).

I suppose as one final thought, we know the upcoming mission pack for 2022 is going to be less friendly to vehicles than the current one. As much as I love mech, we may very well end up having to lean heavily into our infantry going into the new meta (post-book) which would also make the Reductus a bit easier to keep safe.

I think it makes zero sense lore wise. IED's are exactly the type of weapon that causes folks to flatten out on their bellies for cover, not only that but they create absolute mayhem and chaos. Same thing can be said for snipers, I really hope they didn't restrict crossfire from all the neophyte characters, that would be pretty lame.

Especially considering its like 50% of our codex

 Red Corsair wrote:


I think it makes zero sense lore wise. IED's are exactly the type of weapon that causes folks to flatten out on their bellies for cover, not only that but they create absolute mayhem and chaos. Same thing can be said for snipers, I really hope they didn't restrict crossfire from all the neophyte characters, that would be pretty lame.

My money is on the Jackal Alphus applying crossfire to anything she hits with her sniper.

Do I get this right: neophytes got more/double the amount of weapon options at 20 models? So you can field 4 mining lasers and 4 grenade launchers in one squad?

shogun wrote:

Do I get this right: neophytes got more/double the amount of weapon options at 20 models? So you can field 4 mining lasers and 4 grenade launchers in one squad?

That is how I read it! And thank god - it means that a big squad of 20 can actually put out some serious firepower .

Also, I'm shocked no one is talking about Webbers. Here's some numbers:

Flamer vs New Webber vs T3 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 3+) : 1.94 wounds | 1.56 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.39 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 4+) : 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound

Flamer vs New Webber vs T4 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 4+) : 1.46 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.88 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.29 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 5+) : 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds

Flamer vs New Webber vs T5 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 5+) : 0.97 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.39 wounds | 0.19 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 6) : 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds

So, generally speaking, the Webber is better than the Flamer vs targets with 3+ and 2+ saves, and the Flamer is better vs those with a 4+ or worse save. However, if you set up a Crossfire(TM), the Flamer is going to be better vs 3+ saves (though still worse vs 2+ saves).

Ultimately, it seems like a real matchup-specific case, which is where I love to see options be. For my meta, with a ton of Marines and many Custodes, the Webber seems like a go-to for me.

 Yarium wrote:

shogun wrote:

Do I get this right: neophytes got more/double the amount of weapon options at 20 models? So you can field 4 mining lasers and 4 grenade launchers in one squad?

That is how I read it! And thank god - it means that a big squad of 20 can actually put out some serious firepower .

Also, I'm shocked no one is talking about Webbers. Here's some numbers:

Flamer vs New Webber vs T3 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 3+) : 1.94 wounds | 1.56 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.39 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 4+) : 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound

Flamer vs New Webber vs T4 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 4+) : 1.46 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.88 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.29 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 5+) : 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds

Flamer vs New Webber vs T5 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 5+) : 0.97 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.39 wounds | 0.19 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 6) : 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds

So, generally speaking, the Webber is better than the Flamer vs targets with 3+ and 2+ saves, and the Flamer is better vs those with a 4+ or worse save. However, if you set up a Crossfire(TM), the Flamer is going to be better vs 3+ saves (though still worse vs 2+ saves).

Ultimately, it seems like a real matchup-specific case, which is where I love to see options be. For my meta, with a ton of Marines and many Custodes, the Webber seems like a go-to for me.

Seems like it's better against most targets except GEQ.

I look forward to absolutely murdering Sister's Sacresants.

It rolls to wound verse strength not toughness I believe. Meaning it is better verse things like wracks, bikes, gravis, ork boyz etc.

I like them, however it's also worth mentioning that they don't spike like flamers do when inside exposed range, since I don't believe it is written as a wound roll although I may be mistaken on that as the webber profile may be wrong.

I built 8 webbers a couple years ago with some extra neophytes I had because I like them for what they were before. I think shotguns go with flamers but webbers make for solid options on dug in campers if the points are fair.

I am more excited about shotguns to be honest, before they were just cool and flat worse then autoguns. Now, a unit gaining exposed will wound GEQ on 2's which is honestly pretty crazy and very helpful verse overwatch armies like Tau since it's efficient to down fire warriors and drones outside combat.

I played a 1k game last night just to play around with the new mechanic and saboteur against my brothers orks. It was fairly friendly lists mind you in the spirit of experimentation.

My list was a Bladed Cog patrol



He took a Blood Axe Battalion


We both agreed to play on a standard 2k board and mission and start with 10 CP since we normally play that level but just wanted to play a shorter game while still being able to test our toys, so keep that in mind, although in hindsight neither of us got much mileage beyond the first 5-6 we spent anyway.

I was using the crossfire and exposed rules with the assumption it worked on Neophytes, RR's and Jackals but nothing else. I didn't bother using blips but I did use standard stratagems from our book. I used devoted crew, lying in wait and a perfect ambush. I was on the fence on using those, however we were discussing how over priced things in the army currently are and I wasn't using the 15pt upgrade or spoiled stratagems from the community page and I actually think those would grant similar boosts to the ones I got.

I can go into more detail if folks want, but the brief run down is that turn 2 I actually felt bad because I was hamming his army so hard, however by the end of the game I was essentially tabled but way up on points.

The shotgun unit is bananas. I sprang them up using lying in wait and killed 2 10 man ork boy units fairly easily, this unit also provided exposure to the defdreads and 3rd boy unit which the jackals handled. The many mining lasers killed both dreads and splatted the warphead and mechboy. It took quite a bit of effort for the orks to kill the jackals and shotgun unit, however he finally managed to kill those and the trucks and then the house of cards came down pretty easily. The army was so mobile though and even proved to be fairly durable turn 1, but once the trucks and buggies are already softened up, man they all just go down pretty quick ha ha.

The jackals all having shotguns makes that unit so damned fun too, they easily get into close range and really benefit from the strength boost although funnily enough, playing orks that are recently T5 meant the shotgun bonus wasn't quite as good as it would be verse a variety of other armies.

Kellermorph killed about 5 boyz, then later the warboss failed a 4" charge and his ear we go, giving him a chance to shoot him, only for me to realize how hopeless it was, the boss was -1 to wound and damage ha ha, meaning it despite shooting him 12 times I didn't even damage him and he finally made it in and ripped him in half.

The saboteur was also really disappointing. I rolled low on her number of shots and her hits and wounds and she really didn't do much. She did eventually finish a dread off but she didn't really recoup her cost at all, honestly she needs another go, however the mine was totally irrelevant, I never even deployed it. I always wanted to move up with the troops and chasing targets and leaving her on a back field objective just seemed like an 80 point wast when a small unit of jackals or acolytes can do that for less and stay hidden as well. I didn't ambush her because I didn't like missing out on her fire power turn 1 and there wasn't anywhere I could place her due to good screening unless I used lying in wait, which I needed for the shotgun unit. Her gun blows straight through ramshackle, same with all the ML's lol, but her gun would have been great on the warboss on turn 3 until we realized it was only 1 damage. That is very frustrating.

Banner dude is still the best HQ for the points in lower point games, his FNP aura helped make the bikes inefficient from all the 2 damage buggy weapons that already needed 6's to hit them lol.

The cross fire tokens and exposed really made that 20 man shotgun unit and the bikers bananas at mowing down infantry. To the point where I almost am wondering if they are just going to be better then acolytes in every way this edition. Points are going to make a huge impact however being able to ambush and shoot 2 s4 attacks hitting on 3's that have +1 to wound just feels like you get to remove the entire issue with making it into assault for similar damage. The mining weapons and T4 can make a difference obviously and my early gut feeling tells me your going to want to ambush Neophytes, but drive acolytes around into charge range with trucks.

It's pretty exciting though and I am excited that the Neophytes and Jackals are a legitimate threat now.

Played the box set. Gsc housed all over the custodes.

My one gripe with the saboteur is that she doesn't have a cultist knife.

Upside is that you can lay her bomb in melee. So thats cool

 Red Corsair wrote:
To the point where I almost am wondering if they are just going to be better then acolytes in every way this edition.

I think how large a gap may be had between the two will depend on what they do with the Mining Tools and what melee buffs we keep. I'm expecting Cutters and Saws to more or less stay as-is, but the Rock Drill will probably get changed to do extra damage against big targets (the Termite's drill used to share the same escalating mortal wound gimmick, but now it is extra damage vs vehicles/monsters). For what it is worth though, I don't foresee Acolytes being completely replaced by Neophytes, as at their core Acolytes bring more anti-armor attacks at similar squad sizes and can be taken in smaller (cheaper) units for secondary objectives. It may be overly optimistic, but I'm hoping that mixes of the two will be attractive again (along with the other melee specialists).


Thanks for the battle report as well. Makes me excited to see how things will turn out

I think points are going to be a big factor obviously.

I love acolytes and will be using mine, but I think my early prediction is that neophytes will be the core, which makes sense.

I can't see a neophyte being any more then the 6ppm they are now, but I do see acolytes going to at least 9ppm, possibly 10 with the toughness bump and change to claws.

I am just really happy shotguns are s4 base now, makes jackals actually decent as well!

So are there any hints at all that there might be new units in the Codex? I am feeling a bit ripped off as I read about the second wave of Ork releases, and the constant roll out of new space marine models, that we get a new Codex with 1 new model...But maybe we can use the models we have to make new units?? This may just be me feeling hopeful - but would it kill them to give us a Worker Rabble unit, or a Mining Engineer team, or some Prospector Scouts, or bomb-vest Martyrs - something fluffy and different to what we have now?

hangnailnz wrote:
So are there any hints at all that there might be new units in the Codex? I am feeling a bit ripped off as I read about the second wave of Ork releases, and the constant roll out of new space marine models, that we get a new Codex with 1 new model...But maybe we can use the models we have to make new units?? This may just be me feeling hopeful - but would it kill them to give us a Worker Rabble unit, or a Mining Engineer team, or some Prospector Scouts, or bomb-vest Martyrs - something fluffy and different to what we have now?

The most reliable of the rumors had us just getting the Reductus Saboteur with the book, but they could always throw out a new kit via Kill Team like they did for Sisters. For what it is worth, getting our points to somewhere saner and some rules revisions may effectively give us some "new" units through making some of the older options viable again.


My own dream list of new units would be something like a new jetpack unit for Fast Attack (similar to the Orlok prospects, either Acolyte or Neophyte based), a couple new options for Heavy Support (possibly an Aberrant "devestator squad" analog, "artillery" mining weapon platforms, and/or a large mining dozer-based "tough" vehicle), and an industrial transport flier that could move larger squads or maybe even a goliath-sized vehicle.

hangnailnz wrote:
So are there any hints at all that there might be new units in the Codex? I am feeling a bit ripped off as I read about the second wave of Ork releases, and the constant roll out of new space marine models, that we get a new Codex with 1 new model...But maybe we can use the models we have to make new units?? This may just be me feeling hopeful - but would it kill them to give us a Worker Rabble unit, or a Mining Engineer team, or some Prospector Scouts, or bomb-vest Martyrs - something fluffy and different to what we have now?

We did have our second wave of releases sooner than Admech, whose first wave came before ours, and still faster than basically any new, non-stormcast army range in AoS. As far as new mini ranges go we've had a lot of support.

Just one week to preorder.

Any reliable leaks yet?

The fact that we've had nothing does not have me filled with hope.

Supposedly more rule previews this week though, so we will see. Honestly my #1 specific ask is that we get some form of forward deploy. So much of this game is dictated by establishing board control t1 or being able to set up a t2 counter-control. The latter tends to be favored by more durable armies which we definitely are not, and we have a whopping 2 units that can push into midfield just from deployment zone on t1 and they are not a huge task for your opponent to clear. If we have a way to drop a couple 20 man neophyte squads with icons into the midfield I think that would be effective enough to keep our T2 ambush drops able to come in close to where we need them.

If Genestealers/Patriarchs still dont have access to basic rules of the entire army i'm likely to just shelve my GSC again.

I want the cost of utility characters to drop significantly. Kellermorph may have seemed scary at 60 points 4 years ago, buts he's hot trash now at 80. He struggles to kill 4 ork boyz now lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I want the cost of utility characters to drop significantly. Kellermorph may have seemed scary at 60 points 4 years ago, buts he's hot trash now at 80. He struggles to kill 4 ork boyz now lol.

i mean sure but he's also bad at killing tanks, at a certain point you do have to kind of wonder if attacking slow high-T infantry is really the thing you want to point a deep strike assassination unit at.

Ol' helen is probably a wee bit overcosted atm tho for sure. could use a 10pt discount or 5pt with the relic gun.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/04/turn-the-imperiums-weapons-against-it-with-new-brood-brothers-rules/

Brood brother preview up. Nothing dramatically different, slightly more potent regiment doctrine.

Take a bad rule and make it worse, seems right for GSC.

Is quite different actually. Here are the 2 main downsides:

#1 - You cannot take units without <Regiment>. For example, you cannot take Valkyries (despite the article saying you can), as they are Aeronautica Imperialis, and not <Regiment>. Also, no Bullgryn or Primaris Psykers. There are more things you can't take, but those are some stand-outs.

#2 - You cannot take more than 25% of your army; so 500pts in a standard competitive game. That's not nothing, but it definitely limits your options.


Also note, this article somewhat implies that you cannot take Brood Brothers without taking them as a Brood Brother detachment. Currently the codex has Brood Brother units in the codex itself, but ALSO gives you the option of taking Astra Militarum units with a Brood Brother regiment tag. So, for example, you can take a Leman Russ from the Astra Militarum codex, and replace <Regiment> with Brood Brother, OR you could take a Cult Leman Russ from the Genestealer Cult codex itself. Both would be largely identical, but the Astra Militarum one would still have the Imperium keyword, while the Genestealer Cult one would have the Cult Ambush ability and the Tyranid keyword. This new rule might make it that the ONLY way to take it is the Astra Militarum path, which means you HAVE to take it as a detachment - making these units effectively cost CP to run when they didn't previously.

I always find these rules very confusing. And in our current codex the preview did not make a lot of sence (if I remember correctly. I am currently om some pain medication that makes me a bit woozy. It's all good though.) What I wonder is this : Is there and outside chance that current brood brothers units are except for the rule. Or is there a chance we can include Astra Militarum in the GSC detachment without loosing CP.