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tag8833 wrote:

 syypher wrote:
My meta is full of competitive players who play pretty teethy lists... Typical Buffmander Tau, Triptide Tau + Buffmander, White Scars, Eldar Serpent Spam + WKs, Adamantium Lance formation, Centstar, Daemons summoning, Newcrons etc.

I feel like it takes a bit more skill and luck to play Nids than some of the easier armies like Eldar and Tau. (I actually use to play those two and I find them much easier to squeeze out a win. Almost like if I make a mistake, I can make up for it, but it feels like Nids is less forgiving)


I was wondering if you had any advice/ tips for a new Nids player, especially vs these armies. I'm either playing a 4 or 5 Flyrant list. Not 100% sure yet. 5 Flyrant sounds like the most powerful Nids can do right now so may be leaning towards that.

5 Flyrants is a bit of a fluke of a list. It works exceptionally well in certain mission formats (such as BAO), but also suffers from a Rock-Paper-Scissors effect in the same way that any list built out of the Tyranid codex does. For instance, a Tau list with Buffmander, 2 Skyrays, and a Skyfire burstide will be plucking 2 flyrants out of the sky per turn while taking 2-3 wounds back. There are Tau lists that are going to be unbeatable without a giant helping of luck for a good tyranid army in the BAO system. If you tailor to those lists, you will find yourself unable to compete with most other tourney builds. So your best bet is to beat them psychologically by insisting that Skyrays are not a TAC choice and that Iontides are the way to go.

Eldar are a little different. They have the tools to beat 5 flyrants, or 3 flyrants and a barbed heirodule. But usually they don't employ them preferring to stick with Wave Serpents as the source of most of their firepower. Against most Eldar Tourney lists you can compete with either 5 Flyrants or 3 Flyrants and a Barbed Heirodule. Its not an autowin, but neither is it auto lose. Personally, I think a Barbed Heirodule adds a lot vs Eldar, and if they are your primary opponent I would look in that direction.

Eldar and Tau are clearly the top Codexes with undercosted units and upgrades that put them solidly on top of the heap when it comes to tournament builds. Their points efficiency allows for a much more forgiving, less luck dependent victory. With Tyranids you are always gambling, and our top builds are just like AD Lance. Unbalanced and able to beat the tar out of many opponents, but face certain matchups where we need major luck to pull it off.

I wouldn't build toward 5 flyrants only unless I was planning on playing nothing but BAO missions. You probably also want a Barbed Heirodule, Lictors, a couple tyrannocytes, some Carnifexes, a bunch of Gargoyles, some Mawlocs and maybe a Dimacharon and/or TFex to help you tailor to missions. For Instance, OrdoSean's Lictor Shame list.

Wow... that's A LOT of good info that I would not have thought of if I hadn't asked. Thank you so much for the insight! That's a lot to think about. Always thought pentyrants was just "go to competitive list" like "serpent spam, triptide + buffmander" etc. I understand though now, that pentyrant lists might be too hit or miss now that you mention what kind of tournaments you might be taking it to or vs specific matchups. Probably not the best TAC list to do to a varied environment. Thanks!

What is OrdoSean's Lictor shame list? I don't know who that is o_o

I'm having trouble with my lists at the moment, as I've gone from playing hybrid (BAO style missions) to straight up Eternal war missions, as I've not played them in a long time, and I'm finding pure airforce is too imbalanced for them.

Anyone got much experience recently playing straight eternal war and what has been working with them. Our Comp is pretty restricted as well, basically for Nids I can take a Detachment and a formation,

 krootman. wrote:
All this talk about nids kind of got me on the band wagon, I need something else to play competitively, when I need a break from my eldar (the army I plan on running for this years gt season).

Tyranid Cad

Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240
Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240

Lictor 50
Lictor 50
Malenthrope 85

Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15

Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15

Bastion w/ coms 95

Leviathan Detachment

Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240
Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240

Lictor 50
Lictor 50
Lictor 50

Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15

Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15

Malwoc 140
Malwoc 140

1850 on the dot

So the army has zero obsec, but has the ability to deploy up to 12 units on the board that do not give anything up in match ups where I have to null deploy. In match ups that I deploy, the malenthrope will come in handy, as well as always being there if I ever need to run to it to get shrouded. I have the bastion and the malenthrope as backfield holders, along with the lictors and malwocs to grab and contest other objectives.

I put the malwocs in the levi detachment in-case I find myself having to test for being out of synapse. I think on paper this list is pretty solid, but in terms of real world game play its going to require a high learning curve to get right. I only played it once, and the spore mines and mucloids were monsters. I honestly think they are some of the best units in the game lol. I think tau will be the most difficult matchup, and I plan to screw around with this list as much as I can between lvo and adepticon.

Thoughts?

Wow way to steal the list you saw me play at TOGIT

I traded out the spore squads for Rippers in the primary CAD to have 3 obsec units. If you're set on no obsec, I would probably grab Mucolids instead of the regular spores. They can assault flyers and str 8 AP 3 is much better than what the regular spores pop out, even if they do have a little more in terms of linear area denial. Of course, good luck finding/modeling 9 mucolids

 syypher wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

 syypher wrote:
My meta is full of competitive players who play pretty teethy lists... Typical Buffmander Tau, Triptide Tau + Buffmander, White Scars, Eldar Serpent Spam + WKs, Adamantium Lance formation, Centstar, Daemons summoning, Newcrons etc.

I feel like it takes a bit more skill and luck to play Nids than some of the easier armies like Eldar and Tau. (I actually use to play those two and I find them much easier to squeeze out a win. Almost like if I make a mistake, I can make up for it, but it feels like Nids is less forgiving)


I was wondering if you had any advice/ tips for a new Nids player, especially vs these armies. I'm either playing a 4 or 5 Flyrant list. Not 100% sure yet. 5 Flyrant sounds like the most powerful Nids can do right now so may be leaning towards that.

5 Flyrants is a bit of a fluke of a list. It works exceptionally well in certain mission formats (such as BAO), but also suffers from a Rock-Paper-Scissors effect in the same way that any list built out of the Tyranid codex does. For instance, a Tau list with Buffmander, 2 Skyrays, and a Skyfire burstide will be plucking 2 flyrants out of the sky per turn while taking 2-3 wounds back. There are Tau lists that are going to be unbeatable without a giant helping of luck for a good tyranid army in the BAO system. If you tailor to those lists, you will find yourself unable to compete with most other tourney builds. So your best bet is to beat them psychologically by insisting that Skyrays are not a TAC choice and that Iontides are the way to go.

Eldar are a little different. They have the tools to beat 5 flyrants, or 3 flyrants and a barbed heirodule. But usually they don't employ them preferring to stick with Wave Serpents as the source of most of their firepower. Against most Eldar Tourney lists you can compete with either 5 Flyrants or 3 Flyrants and a Barbed Heirodule. Its not an autowin, but neither is it auto lose. Personally, I think a Barbed Heirodule adds a lot vs Eldar, and if they are your primary opponent I would look in that direction.

Eldar and Tau are clearly the top Codexes with undercosted units and upgrades that put them solidly on top of the heap when it comes to tournament builds. Their points efficiency allows for a much more forgiving, less luck dependent victory. With Tyranids you are always gambling, and our top builds are just like AD Lance. Unbalanced and able to beat the tar out of many opponents, but face certain matchups where we need major luck to pull it off.

I wouldn't build toward 5 flyrants only unless I was planning on playing nothing but BAO missions. You probably also want a Barbed Heirodule, Lictors, a couple tyrannocytes, some Carnifexes, a bunch of Gargoyles, some Mawlocs and maybe a Dimacharon and/or TFex to help you tailor to missions. For Instance, OrdoSean's Lictor Shame list.

Wow... that's A LOT of good info that I would not have thought of if I hadn't asked. Thank you so much for the insight! That's a lot to think about. Always thought pentyrants was just "go to competitive list" like "serpent spam, triptide + buffmander" etc. I understand though now, that pentyrant lists might be too hit or miss now that you mention what kind of tournaments you might be taking it to or vs specific matchups. Probably not the best TAC list to do to a varied environment. Thanks!

What is OrdoSean's Lictor shame list? I don't know who that is o_o

He's a guy who took a ton of lictors and only two Flyrants and managed to win a 6 round Grand Tournament a few months back. He's actually done very well competitively with the list since then, going on an 11 game competitive win streak after those 6 games, finally getting that streak snapped, by krootman and Verthane actually. Went 1-2 in that tournament at TOGIT. Though I can't say how things went against krootman, his game against Verthane truly could have gone either way like 3 times. And some sneaky windows that almost went unnoticed really screwed Seam over a bit.

His list: (a rough approximation)

Flyrant w/Devs and EGrubs
Flyrant w/Devs and EGrubs

Lictor
Lictor
Lictor

5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
3 DS Rippers (I believe?)
1 Mucolid
1 Mucolid
1 Mucolid

3 Spores
3 Spores
3 Spores

Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc

Deathleaper Assassin Brood (consists of Deathleaper and 5 single man Lictor units)

I'm sure I'm missing something, but basically he took a list that no one saw coming at all and has been doing very well since, even with the publicity and attention that it has received as a GT-winning list.

As far as the idea that 5 Flyrants have a good amount of hard counters and don't work well in eternal war, I'm not sure about that. They love eternal war because they can just murder everything turns 1-4 and then contest/own objectives. It's in maelstrom that you have to make sure that you still have a ground presence. Tau will always be difficult for Nids but I'm not sure that Skyrays are that great of a TAC unit at the tournament level (to be fair, though, I am not that familiar with their standard loadout). But the Tyranid airforce will still present matchup issues for more armies than will cause matchup issues for Nids. It may not be the most balanced build for Nids, but it certainly is one of the best. I think 4 Flyrants may be better than 5 so that you can have more support units

I know there has been a lot of debate recently about when to deepstrike/reserve Flyrants vs starting them on the board...I was curious as to what match ups would make you decide to deepstrike them? Serpent Spam on hammer and anvil? Centstar with perfect timing?

 997Turbo wrote:
I know there has been a lot of debate recently about when to deepstrike/reserve Flyrants vs starting them on the board...I was curious as to what match ups would make you decide to deepstrike them? Serpent Spam on hammer and anvil? Centstar with perfect timing?

Actually serpent spam on hammer and anvil is pretty solid. For one, you are able to freely jink against their alpha, and although you lose turn 1, if you deep strike, you lose turn one and possibly much more than that. Of course, if you have reserves manipulators, it's a different story. But remember that the serpent shield won't be twin-linked since they will be out of scatter laser range if you are also out of retaliation range. Centstar with perfect timing is a definite candidate. The only issue is that that type of army can usually blow up the bastion that gives you the reserves manipulation in the first place, and if you don't get the warlord trait, you could have tyrants coming in turn 3 or 4, and in a 4 or 5 turn game at the competitive level (typically) that can be just as bad as a dead flyrant because they'll just shoot (and probably kill) something else. Probably another flyrant haha and if you have none on the table, you really lose a LOT of offense.

Question guys
I've seen that there's a lot of use for Malanthropes in your list.my question is,is it legal to field them? cause Malanthropes are a FW unit or is it based on agreement with your opponent?

luke1705 wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:
I know there has been a lot of debate recently about when to deepstrike/reserve Flyrants vs starting them on the board...I was curious as to what match ups would make you decide to deepstrike them? Serpent Spam on hammer and anvil? Centstar with perfect timing?

Actually serpent spam on hammer and anvil is pretty solid. For one, you are able to freely jink against their alpha, and although you lose turn 1, if you deep strike, you lose turn one and possibly much more than that. Of course, if you have reserves manipulators, it's a different story. But remember that the serpent shield won't be twin-linked since they will be out of scatter laser range if you are also out of retaliation range. Centstar with perfect timing is a definite candidate. The only issue is that that type of army can usually blow up the bastion that gives you the reserves manipulation in the first place, and if you don't get the warlord trait, you could have tyrants coming in turn 3 or 4, and in a 4 or 5 turn game at the competitive level (typically) that can be just as bad as a dead flyrant because they'll just shoot (and probably kill) something else. Probably another flyrant haha and if you have none on the table, you really lose a LOT of offense.

I've found on hammer and anvil, serpents usually deploy on the board edge and kill a flyrant turn 1 as 5 or 6 serpent shields will make you fail enough 3+ to take one down. You then lose another flyrant once you're in scatter laser range, regardless of being in the air. By the time you're in range to do damage you've already lost two flyrants. Maybe that is not the statistical outcome but it has been my experience.

That is a good point about cent star just nuking the bastion instead and losing reserve manipulation. There has to be some better options vs cent star then just hoping they don't get perfect timing or hoping to deny it or gate? Maybe not lol.

Pertruabo wrote:
Question guys
I've seen that there's a lot of use for Malanthropes in your list.my question is,is it legal to field them? cause Malanthropes are a FW unit or is it based on agreement with your opponent?

Ever since GW officially deemed FW to be part of their "you can take them and play them into any army list" announcement (a while back) I've seen it becoming more and more the norm. Now it's usually not even questioned (at least @ and near around my locals) if you take FW. It doesn't really matter.

A lot of the big tournaments allow them now too.

The only discrepancy I've ever seen with FW stuff is if it's still using experimental rules.

 krootman. wrote:
All this talk about nids kind of got me on the band wagon, I need something else to play competitively, when I need a break from my eldar (the army I plan on running for this years gt season).

Tyranid Cad

Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240
Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240

Lictor 50
Lictor 50
Malenthrope 85

Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15

Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15

Bastion w/ coms 95

Leviathan Detachment

Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240
Hive tyrant
-wings, 2 pairs of devours, bioshock grub
240

Lictor 50
Lictor 50
Lictor 50

Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15
Mucolid 15

Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15
Spore mine cluster 15

Malwoc 140
Malwoc 140

1850 on the dot

So the army has zero obsec, but has the ability to deploy up to 12 units on the board that do not give anything up in match ups where I have to null deploy. In match ups that I deploy, the malenthrope will come in handy, as well as always being there if I ever need to run to it to get shrouded. I have the bastion and the malenthrope as backfield holders, along with the lictors and malwocs to grab and contest other objectives.

I put the malwocs in the levi detachment in-case I find myself having to test for being out of synapse. I think on paper this list is pretty solid, but in terms of real world game play its going to require a high learning curve to get right. I only played it once, and the spore mines and mucloids were monsters. I honestly think they are some of the best units in the game lol. I think tau will be the most difficult matchup, and I plan to screw around with this list as much as I can between lvo and adepticon.

Thoughts?

I doesn't look bad. Personally I would trade the Spore Mines for a couple of Swarms of Rippers, with Tunneling, so you can get a tiny amount of OS into the list. But that is a "style" thing.

 syypher wrote:
Wow... that's A LOT of good info that I would not have thought of if I hadn't asked. Thank you so much for the insight! That's a lot to think about. Always thought pentyrants was just "go to competitive list" like "serpent spam, triptide + buffmander" etc. I understand though now, that pentyrant lists might be too hit or miss now that you mention what kind of tournaments you might be taking it to or vs specific matchups. Probably not the best TAC list to do to a varied environment. Thanks!

What is OrdoSean's Lictor shame list? I don't know who that is o_o

I think you took me to be more critical of 5 Flyrants than I meant to be. It is a powerful list, and might be the closest we come to a true TAC list in Eternal War missions. I was mainly warning you that it isn't a true TAC list. In the current era of 40k, I'm not sure such a thing exists. There are certain matchups that are better for a Barbed Heirodule, but most of the time 5 Flyrants will do fine for EW or BAO missions.

I object to a 5 Flyrant list for competitive, fluff, and sportsmanship reasons, but would not say that it is a bad list.


I was using OrdoSean's Lictor Shame list to illustrate that all missions are not equal. He won a GT that had unique missions that strongly, strongly favored MSU. Kill points played at most a tiny, tiny part, and many of the primary objectives involved getting more units than your opponent from one place to another. A 5 Flyrant list would have struggled a bit in that format because the 5 flyrants are all airborne most of the time, and thus not scoring, and with 1200 point invested in non-scoring units, your opponent is going to have a scoring unit advantage.

Another Example is 'Da Boyz GT. They cap all units at 0-2 except troops, so if you go to one of those tourneys you can only take 2 Flyrants. Our next little RTT will be using that format, and I am going to run either a Living Artillery list or a Ravener list. I haven't decided yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 997Turbo wrote:
I've found on hammer and anvil, serpents usually deploy on the board edge and kill a flyrant turn 1 as 5 or 6 serpent shields will make you fail enough 3+ to take one down. You then lose another flyrant once you're in scatter laser range, regardless of being in the air. By the time you're in range to do damage you've already lost two flyrants. Maybe that is not the statistical outcome but it has been my experience.

That is a good point about cent star just nuking the bastion instead and losing reserve manipulation. There has to be some better options vs cent star then just hoping they don't get perfect timing or hoping to deny it or gate? Maybe not lol.

If you are playing on a Board where Serpents can see from one edge to the other lengthwise that is the problem, not the reserve status of your flyrants. Also sounds like you could use a Barbed Heirodule or a Bastion in that list to help you out.

By the Way, with Serpent Shields only, it will statistically take 6 Serpents to Kill a Flyrant on the ground if they get 1st turn. If you get 1st turn, and can get your flyrants in the air, it will take 24 Serpents firing their serpent shields to kill a flyrant. If you have a VSG with 3 Void Shields it will take 9 Serpents to kill a Flyrant if they get 1st turn. That's why a VSG is good in a 5 Flyrant list. Playing against 5 or 6 serpents can be challenging, but you are probably better off starting on the board hoping to seize. Also, put some Terrain on your table.

I'm really digging the Barbed Hierodule. 5 Flyrants might not happen if I want the Barbie in my list since it won't fit at 1850 lol

Been reading that people say you need a melee threat deterrent to run Barbie to his best capacity.

Read this report recently:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/02/09/no-mercy-tourney-report/

He runs Barbed Hierodule with Swarmlord support to give him Preferred Enemy. Sick synergy right there!

That list is actually pretty on point with my list that I was doing except instead of Swarmlord it was another Flyrant. Which doesn't help with the melee detterent aspect of keeping the Hierodule safe from WKs and whatnot. I might try out the Swarmlord over my Flyrant in the list. Pretty cool list!

 syypher wrote:
I'm really digging the Barbed Hierodule. 5 Flyrants might not happen if I want the Barbie in my list since it won't fit at 1850 lol

Been reading that people say you need a melee threat deterrent to run Barbie to his best capacity.

Read this report recently:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/02/09/no-mercy-tourney-report/

He runs Barbed Hierodule with Swarmlord support to give him Preferred Enemy. Sick synergy right there!

That list is actually pretty on point with my list that I was doing except instead of Swarmlord it was another Flyrant. Which doesn't help with the melee detterent aspect of keeping the Hierodule safe from WKs and whatnot. I might try out the Swarmlord over my Flyrant in the list. Pretty cool list!

If you need a melee deterrent, the Dimachaeron and Skytyrant are both good options. A Skytyrant with Old Adversary and LW/BS is pretty nasty, and you can always magnetize the arms so you can run it as a Dakkaflyrant when it's not chopping biomass up with its swords

 syypher wrote:
I'm really digging the Barbed Hierodule. 5 Flyrants might not happen if I want the Barbie in my list since it won't fit at 1850 lol

Been reading that people say you need a melee threat deterrent to run Barbie to his best capacity.

Read this report recently:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/02/09/no-mercy-tourney-report/

He runs Barbed Hierodule with Swarmlord support to give him Preferred Enemy. Sick synergy right there!

That list is actually pretty on point with my list that I was doing except instead of Swarmlord it was another Flyrant. Which doesn't help with the melee detterent aspect of keeping the Hierodule safe from WKs and whatnot. I might try out the Swarmlord over my Flyrant in the list. Pretty cool list!

I think a SkyTyrant could make a awesome bodyguard, and it provides bubble wrap as a secondary benefit....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asmodas wrote:

 syypher wrote:
I'm really digging the Barbed Hierodule. 5 Flyrants might not happen if I want the Barbie in my list since it won't fit at 1850 lol

Been reading that people say you need a melee threat deterrent to run Barbie to his best capacity.

Read this report recently:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/02/09/no-mercy-tourney-report/

He runs Barbed Hierodule with Swarmlord support to give him Preferred Enemy. Sick synergy right there!

That list is actually pretty on point with my list that I was doing except instead of Swarmlord it was another Flyrant. Which doesn't help with the melee detterent aspect of keeping the Hierodule safe from WKs and whatnot. I might try out the Swarmlord over my Flyrant in the list. Pretty cool list!

If you need a melee deterrent, the Dimachaeron and Skytyrant are both good options. A Skytyrant with Old Adversary and LW/BS is pretty nasty, and you can always magnetize the arms so you can run it as a Dakkaflyrant when it's not chopping biomass up with its swords

Doh! Deathleapered!

Has anyone ever tried a multi-assault right Through a bubble wrapping unit?

BRB, Page 65:
Skyborne: "When using its jump pack (whether moving, Charging, or Falling Back, as we'll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely."

This removes one of my reservations about using Skytyrant formation.

A good bubble wrap doesn't allow the room for you to land behind it...

If there's room, it's a screen, not a bubble wrap.

rigeld2 wrote:
A good bubble wrap doesn't allow the room for you to land behind it...

If there's room, it's a screen, not a bubble wrap.

This. Though that does not mean folks won't make a mistake. I think the general rule is you have to be at least 1" from an unfriendly, so they need to leave a fair sized gap. There may be some exeptions but I can't bring any to mind....

I like to use screening units that are large enough to dribble a few into the gap...but it hardly ever comes up. I figure anybody who charges Nids has plenty of problems already.

Or did tag mean assaulting through his own unit of bubble wrap?

OK, I have been having some crazy thoughts, so I need somebody to talk me out of it. ..As some know, I have been noodling around with the Hyper Toxic Node.

The Node includes a Tyrant, that must take Toxic, and gains (and gives) Instant death to any Poison attack in the Node. (also re-use Miasma)(The Toxicrene gains IK 5+) so it seems silly to pay for a Bonesabre. I have been building it with Mawclaws, but I like to look at every version.

And I keep on thinking that Rending Claws make good sense... They don't add anything to CC, but they sure look useful at can opening. the average AV result on a is 14 (Rend gives a +D3) that is a glance on a Landraider. And vs a MC you are AP 2, IK on a six, that is a lot of utility for 5 points.

Of course the Mawclaws give PE after a kill, but I could just plain purchase PE, and use it on my first attack. Where have I gone wrong?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Or did tag mean assaulting through his own unit of bubble wrap?

A valid question...I usually Charge the screen, and join the combat...so I had not thought about this...

Well you actually don't need to stay 1" away from enemy models during the charge move. However, you do need to be able to physically place the model, so Rigeld's point about playing someone who is bubble wrapping properly is valid.

The bigger issue is that moving 12" (or any amount greater than 6") in the movement phase counts as using your jump pack then, which is why we never see this rule really coming into play, as you can only use your pack once per turn. So if you only moved 6, then yes you could theoretically jump over a screening unit; however mostly it is more beneficial to just try and use the extra 6" to move around it/otherwise gain positioning.

There are all sorts of applications of trying to charge over top of a unit, especially now that the FAQ may or may not have opened up the ability to multi-assault while not maintaining unit coherence.

But my initial thought was to use it to multi-assault bubble wrap and a unit it is bubble wrapping. That way you don't have to stay 1" away from the bubble wrapping unit. you just need enough space to place one gargoyle base in base contact with the unit that is bubble wrapped, and then pile everything else into the bubble wrapping unit.

My experience is that most people don't bubble wrap tight enough to close up all 30mm gaps between the bubble wrap and the unit it is screening. This is probably due to me not being aware I could do such a thing.

tag8833 wrote:
There are all sorts of applications of trying to charge over top of a unit, especially now that the FAQ may or may not have opened up the ability to multi-assault while not maintaining unit coherence.

But my initial thought was to use it to multi-assault bubble wrap and a unit it is bubble wrapping. That way you don't have to stay 1" away from the bubble wrapping unit. you just need enough space to place one gargoyle base in base contact with the unit that is bubble wrapped, and then pile everything else into the bubble wrapping unit.

My experience is that most people don't bubble wrap tight enough to close up all 30mm gaps between the bubble wrap and the unit it is screening. This is probably due to me not being aware I could do such a thing.

Nice! I say give it a try or two!

luke1705 wrote: Wow way to steal the list you saw me play at TOGIT I traded out the spore squads for Rippers in the primary CAD to have 3 obsec units. If you're set on no obsec, I would probably grab Mucolids instead of the regular spores. They can assault flyers and str 8 AP 3 is much better than what the regular spores pop out, even if they do have a little more in terms of linear area denial. Of course, good luck finding/modeling 9 mucolids

Haha I had no idea that is what you ran, when I sent Nayden the list idea he said it looked like your list. I guess great minds think alike. How has it been working out for you?

I was thinking about using more mucolids as well, I might add 1 or 2 more and trim my spore mine units to 2-3 6 man units so I can use them as los blockers as well as maning coms

luke1705 wrote:
5 Flyrants is a bit of a fluke of a list. It works exceptionally well in certain mission formats (such as BAO), but also suffers from a Rock-Paper-Scissors effect in the same way that any list built out of the Tyranid codex does. For instance, a Tau list with Buffmander, 2 Skyrays, and a Skyfire burstide will be plucking 2 flyrants out of the sky per turn while taking 2-3 wounds back. There are Tau lists that are going to be unbeatable without a giant helping of luck for a good tyranid army in the BAO system. If you tailor to those lists, you will find yourself unable to compete with most other tourney builds. So your best bet is to beat them psychologically by insisting that Skyrays are not a TAC choice and that Iontides are the way to go.

Eldar are a little different. They have the tools to beat 5 flyrants, or 3 flyrants and a barbed heirodule. But usually they don't employ them preferring to stick with Wave Serpents as the source of most of their firepower. Against most Eldar Tourney lists you can compete with either 5 Flyrants or 3 Flyrants and a Barbed Heirodule. Its not an autowin, but neither is it auto lose. Personally, I think a Barbed Heirodule adds a lot vs Eldar, and if they are your primary opponent I would look in that direction.

I agree, in my humble opinion a 5 flyrant list does not have the tools to make it out of a 6-9 round gt. There are too many objective missions and with armies they have difficulty killing they will be in trouble. My current eldar list has 3 wks, 3 serpents, summon seer and some bikes and I do pretty well vs nids in objective missions. Then again wraithknights are a hard counter to flyrants as well.

luke1705 wrote: Eldar and Tau are clearly the top Codexes with undercosted units and upgrades that put them solidly on top of the heap when it comes to tournament builds. Their points efficiency allows for a much more forgiving, less luck dependent victory. With Tyranids you are always gambling, and our top builds are just like AD Lance. Unbalanced and able to beat the tar out of many opponents, but face certain matchups where we need major luck to pull it off.
I wouldn't build toward 5 flyrants only unless I was planning on playing nothing but BAO missions.

Mass flyrants are fickle imo, they can either kill a unit a turn or you will dump 3 flyrants into a tac squad in 1 turn. They can also live all game or you can fail 3 grounding checks in a turn. When it comes to gts, I like to do as little gambling as I can and stick to the shore thing. Its the same reason why people dont spam as many serpents as they can in 1850 and nothing else.

As far as lvo missions go, flyrants do ok in that if you have to go first you can snag fb and hopefully force malestron to not matter (I think flyrants are pretty meh overall with malestrom) and you can hopefully keep them out of your backfield with the flyrants you have a pretty good chance of winning. Also going 2nd is a huge advantage in lvo format, and it fixes any issues the flyrants have with scoring. However any msu army that can be everywhere(especially if has alot of obsed, I run 9 obsec units in 1850) at once will be just to much for mass flyrants to handle and I think thats where the nid players are going to struggle at lvo.

Wow... that's A LOT of good info that I would not have thought of if I hadn't asked. Thank you so much for the insight! That's a lot to think about. Always thought pentyrants was just "go to competitive list" like "serpent spam, triptide + buffmander" etc. I understand though now, that pentyrant lists might be too hit or miss now that you mention what kind of tournaments you might be taking it to or vs specific matchups. Probably not the best TAC list to do to a varied environment. Thanks!

What people don't realize is alot of these popular lists do well because they were piloted by someone who played nothing but this list for a few months leading towards the gt they won. So to expect to pick up and play and do well is unrealistic. Also if you notice at most major events there is some combination of the same group of players at the top. That is because these players all test against popular lists and know exactly how to beat it multiple ways. For example I know myself and most other people who are going to lvo from my area have played at least 25-40 practice games. Does that mean we are going to win, not at all...but it is better going in knowing exactly what your list can and cant do and modifying it accordingly. Especially for us east coasters who really have an understanding of west coast meta. It also helps if you have a very good play test grp. I know I regualary get to test with half the American ETC team as well as many current and former gt champs, and when we test we dont really care about who wins or loses, more about how the game played out.

luke1705 wrote: He's a guy who took a ton of lictors and only two Flyrants and managed to win a 6 round Grand Tournament a few months back. He's actually done very well competitively with the list since then, going on an 11 game competitive win streak after those 6 games, finally getting that streak snapped, by krootman and Verthane actually. Went 1-2 in that tournament at TOGIT. Though I can't say how things went against krootman, his game against Verthane truly could have gone either way like 3 times. And some sneaky windows that almost went unnoticed really screwed Seam over a bit.

His list: (a rough approximation)

Flyrant w/Devs and EGrubs
Flyrant w/Devs and EGrubs

Lictor
Lictor
Lictor

5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
3 DS Rippers (I believe?)
1 Mucolid
1 Mucolid
1 Mucolid

3 Spores
3 Spores
3 Spores

Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc

Deathleaper Assassin Brood (consists of Deathleaper and 5 single man Lictor units)

I'm sure I'm missing something, but basically he took a list that no one saw coming at all and has been doing very well since, even with the publicity and attention that it has received as a GT-winning list.

I beat him pretty handily, but there are a few things to consider with our game.

1) Wks are his hard counter, and I had 3 of them.
2) I know exactly how his list plays as I picked his brain after 11th
3) he tried something new and it didnt work out the way he thought.
4) his dice spiked, but mine spiked way harder haha

Not making excuses one way or another but when 2 players closely matched play its usually the meta that determines the winner.

pinecone77 wrote:I doesn't look bad. Personally I would trade the Spore Mines for a couple of Swarms of Rippers, with Tunneling, so you can get a tiny amount of OS into the list. But that is a "style" thing.

I had rippers in the first build, but I didnt have the points to use them if I wanted to spam mines (the most op broken unit in the nid book)

Hmmm....with all these talks a bout Pentyrant being unbalanced and really not that great for a GT, maybe I should take it to the LVO. Seems like they do have something to prove.

So I just got in a game against a Newcron Decurion at 1500. Those suckers are tough!! They just won't go down. I was playing a kind of goofy list against it : 3 Flyrants, 2 Vopes, Zope, 9x 5 Genestealers, 5 units of which were part of the Manufactorum Formation. He brought: Reclamation Legion: OLord w/ some toys, 2x 20 Warriors, 5 Immortals, 2 Nightscythes, 4 Tomb Blades w/ Shieldvanes and Nebuloscopes. Canoptek Harvest: Spyder, 3 Scarabs and 4 Wraiths w/ Whipcoils + 10 Flayed Ones.

I just could not kill enough to get him off objectives. The three Flyrants were only downing about 5-6 Warriors a turn when I wasn't shooting at Night Scythes, while I was having to cough up 'stealers to keep the Wraiths busy. I managed to get a few Stealer squads in combat with Warriors via outflanking and overloading one flank but it just wasn't enough. The Flayed Ones are just as tough as the warriors and just waltzed up the board and into my deployment zone while mulching anything in the way. The only reason the game wasn't a complete shut out was because I took 2nd turn and landed my two remaining Flyrants to contest one objective and control another, and the game fortunately ended on turn 6. Had it gone to 7, there was a decent chance he would have killed both Flyrants and very nearly tabled me. I know my list was pretty far from optimized (his wasn't exactly optimized either to be fair), but 3 Flyrants at 1500 isn't exactly a nice list, no matter what the support is, and he had no trouble with it really. Seems to me that the 'Nids bread and butter of S6 AP- dakka isn't really going to cut it against a lot of the Decurion lists that will inevitably show up on the scene.

Anyone have any ideas for a 1500 pt list that will give a Decurion based around 2x 20 Warrior bricks + Night Scythes + Canoptek Harvest trouble? I was reeeaallly wishing I had a Mawloc to pop up under the Warriors so that will definitely be an inclusion in my next go around with a 1500 pt list.

Run a dimachaeron and sweep his brick in assault. Instant Death means -1 to their RP checks, meaning that they have a 5+ RP instead of a 4+ RP in the Decurion detachment.

Of course, include the obligatory triple-flyrants in your list as well.

BTW, take out his spider with your flyrants first if possible. He loses the spider and then his wraiths lose their RP as well.

 jy2 wrote:
Hmmm....with all these talks a bout Pentyrant being unbalanced and really not that great for a GT, maybe I should take it to the LVO. Seems like they do have something to prove.

YESSSS PLEASSEEEE DOOOO! WITH BATREPS!!!!

 jy2 wrote:
Hmmm....with all these talks a bout Pentyrant being unbalanced and really not that great for a GT, maybe I should take it to the LVO. Seems like they do have something to prove.

Great for LVO. Its basically a hard counter for my Barbed Heirodule list, and will blow alot of people out that will be a close game to me. Meanwhile there is maybe one matchup that I win that you don't. Possibly 2 if someone runs a Necron warrior blob based list.

Not so good in some other tournament system. For Instance, at 11th Company, Lictor Shame would have beat you handily. In a Maelstrom Tourney you struggle, especially if you don't autowin on a tabling. It is a list that is singularly exceptional at the BAO missions, and I don't think anyone that has tried it would argue otherwise. (Maybe some of the TAU players over at Torrent of Fire: http://www.torrentoffire.com/6486/steal-this-wisdom) If you play basically only BAO missions, and do not object to running 5 flyrants, then it is probably the best list for you.

For me it is hard to find BAO tourneys unless I run them myself, and after LVO, I'm probably done with that. Most tourneys in my region prefer to use either Maelstrom or some other mission pack all together. A few still run EW missions where 5 Flyrants work just fine. Also regionally, army comp is generally either much saner, or completely wide open. Leviathan along side a CAD is forbidden most places, and those places that allow it tend to allow unlimited detachments, So there is no reason not to build the same list as 2 CADs and an Ally.

I think we've got to escape this sort of tunnel vision where one list is the best, no matter the terrain, FAQ, or Missions. To maximize your chance to win, you tailor to those things. For BAO that means play a kill point denial list that can jump on objectives at the end. For 11th Company it means play a MSU list. For Maelstrom it means play a list with powerful central board presence. For NOVA it means play a highly mobile list which to us means Flying Circus. I'm gearing up for a 'Da Boyz format tournament. Flyrants are 0-2, so I've got to build a 2 Flyrant list that can compete in their missions some of which require a board presence. I'm leaning towards bringing Raveners.

 jy2 wrote:
Run a dimachaeron and sweep his brick in assault. Instant Death means -1 to their RP checks, meaning that they have a 5+ RP instead of a 4+ RP in the Decurion detachment.

I don't have one I'll probably proxy next game and give it a go, but it doesn't feel very reliable. Even with a Tyrranocyte and good placement I find it hard to believe that it will get to the Warriors before the Wraiths get to it if he's playing remotely smart with the Wraiths. I guess I could hope to drag them outside of RP range. Even if it doesn't get to the Warriors it would tie up the wraiths for a good bit and maybe whittle them down. We'll see.

BTW, take out his spider with your flyrants first if possible. He loses the spider and then his wraiths lose their RP as well.

According to my maths it takes 36 HITS from S6 shooting to take out the Spyder if it has RP. So that's 1 turn of pretty much all my shooting and more than likely a second turn for one of the Flyrants to take it out. Of course, if I go first it should be doable with three Flyrants since the Spyder will not have RP, but is it worth giving up second turn and final say on objectives for that? I'm not sure.

@tag8833
I'm curious why you would take Ravenors over Shrikes(other than no having the models). Only advantages Ravenors have over them are the beast type and they can take two CC weapons and a gun. Shrikes have a better range of weapon options(both melee and ranged), synapse, access to grenades, and shadow in the warp. They can move a the same speed as well(generally speaking, Beasts can ignore terrain).