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 Swampmist wrote:
I am not, to be clear, advocating for ONLY buggies . Orks still desperately want as many cp as they can get, and honestly grot battalions do a good job of getting there for cheap

I gathered, but 9x10 Grots are not difficult to remove either...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
I am not, to be clear, advocating for ONLY buggies . Orks still desperately want as many cp as they can get, and honestly grot battalions do a good job of getting there for cheap

I gathered, but 9x10 Grots are not difficult to remove either...

Maybe I haven't played into enough long-renge out of los shooting, but I've found running\da jumping them from cover to cover works decently well, especially with the various versions of the list (which most often have had a squad of tank bustas, though I am looking to test a morkanaut with PA) can take out the vehicles that would snipe them.

Sorry guys for the OT question, but this thing has been bothering me for a while.
If use the Ork logo on IG for my posts



Would that be considered copyright infringement?

I don't think so, unless you're making money off them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't think so, unless you're making money off them.

Oh no, that is just for say short batrep and painting

Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.

 Grimskul wrote:
Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.

I would lean into Tin 'Eads if you're mixing Kans with other stompy things. I would lean into Grot Mobs if you're running Kans with Mek Guns. I personally think if you have Kanz and a Morkanaut, the Morkanaut should get +1 to hit from Sparkly Bitz.

 Quackzo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.

I would lean into Tin 'Eads if you're mixing Kans with other stompy things. I would lean into Grot Mobs if you're running Kans with Mek Guns. I personally think if you have Kanz and a Morkanaut, the Morkanaut should get +1 to hit from Sparkly Bitz.

Makes sense, I was originally considering doing a Grot Klan detachment purely for a mix of Mek Gunz and Killa Kanz, and another Tin Ead Detachment for just the deff dreadz/Morkanaut. In the instance that the Morkanaut gets Sparkly Bitz, what should the Kanz have? Should they get the 3" extra movement or -1 to hit vs shooting?

 Grimskul wrote:

 Quackzo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.

I would lean into Tin 'Eads if you're mixing Kans with other stompy things. I would lean into Grot Mobs if you're running Kans with Mek Guns. I personally think if you have Kanz and a Morkanaut, the Morkanaut should get +1 to hit from Sparkly Bitz.

Makes sense, I was originally considering doing a Grot Klan detachment purely for a mix of Mek Gunz and Killa Kanz, and another Tin Ead Detachment for just the deff dreadz/Morkanaut. In the instance that the Morkanaut gets Sparkly Bitz, what should the Kanz have? Should they get the 3" extra movement or -1 to hit vs shooting?

I made a post earlier on rambling about it but I personally think the orkymatic pistons are what will make Killa Kanz a real threat, so that's my suggestion. I think the Morkanaut benefits more from the +1 to hit because it's got so much mode dakka than 6 Kans.

 Quackzo wrote:
Kanz

Great analysis, I agree with most things here. I have run kanz a couple of times simply because I still have them from 5th. Which close combat weapon(s) do you think are the best choice?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Quackzo wrote:
Kanz

Great analysis, I agree with most things here. I have run kanz a couple of times simply because I still have them from 5th. Which close combat weapon(s) do you think are the best choice?

Personally, I feel that it's pretty much between the kan klaw or the saw. With the extra attack from skrag em and the saw, you can have 5 attacks base per kan, potentially making that 6 if you get warpath off on them. The damage 2 makes it so they're good against the plethora of primaris in the current meta. However, the kan klaw provides better quality stats, with better AP and more importantly S8 (which also means you would on 2's against T4 units), meaning you wound most vehicles on 3's or 4's, and against vehicles that extra AP and damage makes a big difference for when those hits goes through. As far as I remember you can mix and match so you probably want a ratio of about 1 klaw for every 2 saws.

 Swampmist wrote:
1.) I absolutely agree on their fragility. as-so-far I have avoided this problem by just having more of them, but I suspect an army like the prenerf Imperial Fists Artillery Company would be a serious issue for the list.

It doesn't need to be that bad - a competitive necron list, a pure knight list with helverines can kill or marines with multiple predators or repulsor executioners can do lots of damage. Basically anything that can put out many d6 or flat 3 damage shots at long ranges is extremely damgerous.

2.) I do not know that I agree with this point. I have been running 90 gretchin (3 battallions) as the screen and board control portion of the list and have found that to be quite effective. I will agree that boyz seem a bit exspensive for that role, but I also do not believe boyz are the best troop for that role in the faction.

Boyz are not meant for board control. The whole reason for taking boyz is da jumping a unit in your opponent's face T1 and follow that up with two more units in T2. This forces them to castle up, as otherwise deep strikers can tag their valuable shooting units and isolated objective-grabbers get overrun. This is basically what keeps current highly competitive lists alive, but doesn't work well at all with buggies.

3.) I have actually found the buggies, particularly the Dragsta and Scrapjet, to be very effective against hard targets. While a large amount of invulns does seem to be an issue there, I have not run into many lists that have mass T8 and mass strong invulns. The only example that comes to mind is Knights, who have a 5++ unless presenting you only one knight, which I believe the list(s) can still kill. The buggy list actually has quite a lot of str8 shooting, especially with Deathskullz rerolls to help hit and wound.

Examples that come to my mind are leviathans, repulsors, executioners, PBC, LoC, paladins, wraiths or deathwing knights. I've also found that characters like Calgar, Typhus or Trajann are almost impossible to get rid of.

To give some of my own perspective, I have found the hardest matchup for the list as-so-far has been Grey Knights, just due to how tanky Paladins are. I am going to be testing Smasha guns soon for this exact purpose, since they get around transhuman physiology, but I will fully admit that I had an incredibly hard time into GK with my original list.

Yeah, paladins are the kind of unit buggies have no real way to deal with. I'm going to try solving this with burna bommers the next time I get to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Gretchin are really underrated for board control...but only if they're able to run around relatively unmolested because you have enough stuff around that people aren't devoting any attention to them. The second anyone turns anything on them, they run away. And if you have an army that's all vehicles except for gretchin, a smart opponent is just going to shoot them off the board T1 and 2 with their anti-infantry guns.

This 100% - in a recent game where I was testing lootas, I obviously went through 3 units for gretchin rather quickly. Getting rid of the other three units was quite easy for the opponent and I was unable to score (four pillars mission) afterwards.
If you rely on gretchin, keeping them out of harms way is a top priority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
What about a massed T8 list? A few souped up gorkanauts, the buffed up gunwagons. Maybe with some deffdreads or deffkoptas to act as annoyances? It would likely be pretty shootey heavy with a decent bit of melee in a pinch. Possibly throw some bare bones nob units in the various vehicles to act as shock troops?

For orks, basically anthing with T5 or better goes into the "vehicle" defensive group. Spamming T8 is not as efficient, as the 4+ save on wagons still means they die rather quickly, while the nauts are too expensive to be spammed. I've run a wild mix of bikes, koptas, buggies, wagons, planes and a naut for multiple games now and it very much works like you imagine. I've finally got myself some MANz of my own, when I'm done painting them, I'll see how well they mesh with his list. I feel like having some deep strikers could do a lot for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We know how well a primary buggy list does from the LVO and our hero/saviour who took ONLY buggies there.

He went 3-3, which is probably about right. There are worst lists and in the hands of a good player they will be OK, but they'll never be top table.

This PA opens up lots of options but I think most of them are cheeky rather than powerful. I'll have to see once I finally get back to playing but I don't think Buggies are going to go to top tier competitive. I do think they'll be fun to play with and potentially frustrating for your opponent, however.

I'm not surprise that he did though. Buggies have some great strengths and few weaknesses, but they can't do everything. The right mix of buggies and units that can mitigate their shortcomings will be vastly more powerful than buggies all the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
Would Mega Nobs help with some board presence in a vehicle heavy list?

They don't really need the same sort of buffs that regular ork boys need, and anti infantry guns, albeit wounding them like normal, aren't really going to do much against a 2+, 3 wound model.

They don't tie up stuff like Boys / Warbikers can, of course.

I guess you can try to jump them T1 just like boyz. Maybe working in tandem with warbikers? I'm going to try this.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Quackzo wrote:
Kanz

Great analysis, I agree with most things here. I have run kanz a couple of times simply because I still have them from 5th. Which close combat weapon(s) do you think are the best choice?

Personally, I feel that it's pretty much between the kan klaw or the saw. With the extra attack from skrag em and the saw, you can have 5 attacks base per kan, potentially making that 6 if you get warpath off on them. The damage 2 makes it so they're good against the plethora of primaris in the current meta. However, the kan klaw provides better quality stats, with better AP and more importantly S8 (which also means you would on 2's against T4 units), meaning you wound most vehicles on 3's or 4's, and against vehicles that extra AP and damage makes a big difference for when those hits goes through. As far as I remember you can mix and match so you probably want a ratio of about 1 klaw for every 2 saws.

My gut says Klaws for there is so much value in that S8 AP-3 D3 stat line and Kans already get so many attacks I wasn't sure if the extra attack that Saws provided mattered. I did the numbers and it agreed with my gut. Against a Primaris marine you would expect to land the same number of wounds with 4 Klaw attacks as you would with 5 Saw attacks, then when you factor in the improved AP from the Klaw you will expect to kill more primaris marines. With more attacks from Warpath the Klaw will be even better. The Saw will output more wounds when you have less base attacks from losing Scrag 'Em but by then you're not in an ideal situation at all.
Saw's will always yield more wounds against T3 or less but I feel like you you'll answer T3 models with something else. Saw's will also yield more wounds against T5 and T6 targets but I suspect that the Klaw's extra AP and damage will result in more kills.

So the TL;DR is Klaws at their worst are on par with or slightly behind Saws and at their best Klaws are noticeably ahead. So use Klaws all the time. I didn't bother talking about Drillas because their low strength pulls forces them to be anti infantry, and they're more or less comparable to Saws there.

Does "visions in the smoke" psychic power work on transported units (open-topped)? I was thinking a battlewagon with flash gits or the same with trukks.

Visions of Smoke is not a modifier, so no.

So I'm sure someone has already done the math but how different is BS4+ with DDD and then BS4+ & BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD?

BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is just tankbusta stats so surely that's been calculated, also with and without adding more dakka. A morkanaut with sparkly bitz, visions in the smoke, more dakka and kustom ammo should be able to do a massive amount of damage.

Hopefully the gitbonez will work on the new psychic powers as that's not RAW right now. Visions being WC9 on the big stuff is pretty rough otherwise.

PiñaColada wrote:
So I'm sure someone has already done the math but how different is BS4+ with DDD and then BS4+ & BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD?

BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is just tankbusta stats so surely that's been calculated, also with and without adding more dakka. A morkanaut with sparkly bitz, visions in the smoke, more dakka and kustom ammo should be able to do a massive amount of damage.

Hopefully the gitbonez will work on the new psychic powers as that's not RAW right now. Visions being WC9 on the big stuff is pretty rough otherwise.

I did the math for it a while ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/orks/comments/9rt0k8/shooty_know_wotz_orky_mathhamer/

To save you digging through it:
BS4+ with DDD is 0.583 expected hits per attack, BS4+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.938 expected hits per attack, BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.710 expected hits per attack.

 Quackzo wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
So I'm sure someone has already done the math but how different is BS4+ with DDD and then BS4+ & BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD?

BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is just tankbusta stats so surely that's been calculated, also with and without adding more dakka. A morkanaut with sparkly bitz, visions in the smoke, more dakka and kustom ammo should be able to do a massive amount of damage.

Hopefully the gitbonez will work on the new psychic powers as that's not RAW right now. Visions being WC9 on the big stuff is pretty rough otherwise.

I did the math for it a while ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/orks/comments/9rt0k8/shooty_know_wotz_orky_mathhamer/

To save you digging through it:
BS4+ with DDD is 0.583 expected hits per attack, BS4+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.938 expected hits per attack, BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.710 expected hits per attack.

Thanks, I really appreciate it Quackzo! How much would "more dakka" alter those numbers do you think? Also, BS4+ with DDD and rerolls is insanely accurate, I expected it to be in the 80's and not mid 90's.

Edit: NVM, I'm an idiot as "more dakka" is included in the link you've provided

DDD is a flat 16.66% increase in shots (and thus 16.66% increase on hits) on every ork, not matter what you re-roll or what your BS is.
Moar dakka increases this to 33.33%, or a 14.29% increase over regular DDD.
Kustom ammo is obviously a 100% increase in hits
BS4+ is another 16.66% increase
The only tricky one are the re-rolls, for BS4+, it's a 50% increase, for BS5+ it's 18.52%.

So if you drop everything on one naut, you basically have 1.3333x2.0x1.1666x1.5 = 4.666 times of whatever your regular mathhammer would say about any of it's guns.

Sparkly Bitz on a mork legitimately scares my roommates lol.
I usually run that thing anyway and most of the time (some games it just looks scary) it deletes things with ease. Adding +1 to hit...my evil grin is grinch-like right now lol

Would be even more hilarious though if they goofed up and didnt mention it only works on the walkers. Its a modifier, so open-topped would transfer it lol. Sadly they were wise enough to catch that one

Theres just so much crap with kustom jobs i wanna do i am having a hard time figuring out what to do first. I dont have the book sadly (i am NOT buying the PDF and the Book, i hate PDFs) but really all im interested in i can easily remember and my roommates are aware of, and theyre kinda the only people i can play atm anyway
I would be upset about no new relics because thats really weird we didnt even get 1 new relic....but our vehicles have more an impact than characters do most of the time anyway so this is better.

 Jidmah wrote:
DDD is a flat 16.66% increase in shots (and thus 16.66% increase on hits) on every ork, not matter what you re-roll or what your BS is.
Moar dakka increases this to 33.33%, or a 14.29% increase over regular DDD.
Kustom ammo is obviously a 100% increase in hits
BS4+ is another 16.66% increase
The only tricky one are the re-rolls, for BS4+, it's a 50% increase, for BS5+ it's 18.52%.

So if you drop everything on one naut, you basically have 1.3333x2.0x1.1666x1.5 = 4.666 times of whatever your regular mathhammer would say about any of it's guns.

Thanks, that breakdown helps me process this for my math-atrophied mind. I will say that the bolded sentence above really showcases how much support you could give that naut. Sure Orks start out from a terrible position but that multiplier is no joke! Even without visions a BS4+ morkanaut will still be pretty decent and hopefully the spell still went off at WC6-8 so you can buff like a buggy/KMK and at least marginally help out. Makes me want to bring out some big boyz again, that's for sure

I'm currently pondering whether I should bring a single freeboota weirdboy in a CP battalion so I can tremor-shell fast units.

Thoughts?

if it halved charge distances, sure that'd be great.
But at 18" i suspect it wont stop charges at all unless you got them AT 18", where 6-7" movement still puts them at 11-12" so they couldnt realistically make that charge.

I really dont see it being that useful. Especially since really all the weirdboy is gonna be 18" away from is stuff that DS'd right next to him, and if theyre under 10" away i dont see it helping at all.

It doesn’t. It halves move but you only subtract one from the charge and advance roll.

If the range of the power was more like 24” it might be better. I think you’d have to line stuff up perfectly. And it’ll largely depend if the unit can advance and charge.

Infantry charges might be hosed but I’m not sure we’re worried about those.

I'd see it more of a "You aint gettin' away from me!" ability more than an anti-charge.
Which, except for footslogging infantry (that we strive to NOT do), do we need that? not really imo

Honestly, I think the only new psychic power that will see much play is Maniacal Seizure and to a lesser extent Visions.

Gunwagon + visions synergies very well at least, but that conditional WC9 really narrows its general usefulness.

I hope someone builds a clever list with that Blood Axe power though, because that power is tight.

Gunwagons have 16 wounds so it would be significantly easier to get that power off for them than it would a naut or stompa.

The WC9 for 18+ wound models is kinda silly. Even with all those rerolls and the souped up gatling gun on the stompa i dont think it would be that amazing lol.

If you own a stompa, I’d do it for a lark. Cause it’s actually legitimately a lot of hits.

I believe 5+ reroll with exploding 6s is slightly better than a 3+ on total hits. It’s pretty bonkers.

But yeah. Gunwagons only. WC9 is a 25% cast rate without bonuses... and when do you park 30 boys next to your Mork :/

tulun wrote:
If you own a stompa, I’d do it for a lark. Cause it’s actually legitimately a lot of hits.

I believe 5+ reroll with exploding 6s is slightly better than a 3+ on total hits. It’s pretty bonkers.

But yeah. Gunwagons only. WC9 is a 25% cast rate without bonuses... and when do you park 30 boys next to your Mork :/

Just running the numbers, I get...

36 shots
12 hits and 24 rerolls for 20 hits, 10 of which explode
10 shots get 5/9 hits, for (50/9)+20
Or about 25 and a half hits.

So yes, just barely better than 3+!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gunwagons have 16 wounds so it would be significantly easier to get that power off for them than it would a naut or stompa.

The WC9 for 18+ wound models is kinda silly. Even with all those rerolls and the souped up gatling gun on the stompa i dont think it would be that amazing lol.

Indeed. I'm looking at the Gunwagon as the much more reliable unit to receive the Smokey Visions.

I've mathhammered it without dakka dakka dakka and from what I can tell a double firing Morkanaut with Visions from the Smoke and BS4+ is not killing a Knight in one turn.