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Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jancoran is the same guy that said Imperial Guard had one of the best melee death stars 6th-7th. Any advice presented by him is garbage. Hell, in the Scion thread in the main 40k subforum, he actually suggested mixing Scion weapons.

Can we just get a mod to delete his comments in this thread?


Slayer-Fan, you're thoroughly unpleasant. Also: stuck in the past. Also: wrong. Stahp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:

I don't understand what the problem is with being a bit skeptical of someone claiming something outrageous. Would you believe me if I said that Transcendent C'tan are better than Doomsday Arks? It wasn't about quality of opponent either, it was about your opponent having the right mindset, I've been told by people that they like to turn their brain off when they play and they prefer their opponent doing the same. There's like 25% of the 40k players that don't try to win and get mad if you only barely have LOS to something and shoot it. I'm not talking about rules lawyering saying you can't shoot with assault weapons after advancing or cheating by an inch whenever you can get away with it, just being honest about what the rules for LOS say and trying to win the game fair and square. You can even play super gentlemanly and allow take-backsies and be laid back, as long as you don't start trying to lose when your opponent has a bad roll, people's experiences in those kinds of games are worthless to me because I don't want to be coddled when I have bad dice.


Lets get off the wrong foot here, which we are currently on. Skepticism is fine.

Let me just say this: My nickname, given to me by people who were not complimentary, is Unorthodoxy. There is a section of the gamer pop that will ignore every win you ever had if you dont do it the "right way". There is a section of people like Slayer-Fan who simply have no imagination and will poo poo anything that didn't win the NOVA OPEN. Like: anything.

I've embraced that Unorthodoxy nickname and I even had it put on my club shirt. I'll tell you why: Because 60% of the game is the General, not the list. Having said that, EVERYONE who plays the same list I do for long enough will figure out how it works and what to do with it. The trouble is, MANY gamers don't have the time nor the money nor the willingness to even try. So they rely on talking heads (like us) on internet forums (like this) and ITC result summaries to TELL them what's good, and then they sound like an absolute SAGE when they repeat it to the people who did the exact same thing. Lol. Can you say "Echo chamber"?

Well that's fine. They aren't wrong. Those lists DID in fact work spectacularly. There is no denying it. None. It happened. It's real. You can probably emulate it. People usually do.

People like me don't make the meta list and everyone flips their tables and cries "unorthodoxy! Burn him!". They do it without thinking through the strategy. Without pondering the board. Without consider the ORDER OF DEPLOYMENT that makes it work. All the little things that good Generals do to make what you thought wasn't a threat into one.

On paper the matchup looks difficult. I'll give you an example. I played my Grey Knights against the number 3 Astartes player in the world against his tooled up meta-approved Iron Hands pre nerf. PRE nerf. I beat him. On paper I have no business beating him. I don't have a single Paladin or Banner Bearer in that list. In fact I'd wager not ONE damn person has the list I use, although they of course have components in it. This wasn't some cupcake newb. This wasn't some underpowered codex.

Question becomes: Could you have done the same? The answer is YES. Of course you could have. If you played that GK army enough times, you'd be familiar with its tolerances, know when to time your strikes, when to run. You could. But would you ever? Maybe not. Because the internet would take ONE LOOk at that list and tell me what Slayer-Fan does all the time about it. But he's wrong. He'll always BE wrong about it, just like he was before. The bottom line is, it happened. It's real. You can emulate it. It may take you longer to deprogram yourself and reprogram yourself to the new list, might even suffer a loss before you do; but it's just a matter of seeing the board and the opportunities in the same way. Which you would. Same goes for this one.

I'm not special, is what I'm trying to say. Nothing special about me. I haven't struck gold that no one else can, nor does my mind work in some labrinthine way that no one else can comprehend. I'm reading from the same codex my opponents are. Rolling against the hardest generals in the ITC regularly. I am not rolling magical dice or flouting the rules of probability. I'm just a guy. That guy went a different way in a lot of lists. I made it work. Given a little practice, you would to.

Or not. Who knows. But we ARE playing the same ruleset, you and I, and no one is "turning their brain off" when we play here. Hehehe. My meta is BRUTAL. Believe me (or not). I haven't offered you the next NOVA OPEN winner. I've offered you a great list that isn't boring and totally wins. Have fun with it. I do. Show your hand, but don't let them see the other hand holding the knife.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/18 05:10:24


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




My suggestion: it looks like this discussion has veered off from tactics (certainly my fault too!) and into meta discussion of player discussion styles and standings. Let’s get back on topic, perhaps?

Someone asked, Jane, how Anrakyr gets up the board. What successful methods have you found to manage this?
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

sieGermans wrote:
My suggestion: it looks like this discussion has veered off from tactics (certainly my fault too!) and into meta discussion of player discussion styles and standings. Let’s get back on topic, perhaps?

Someone asked, Jane, how Anrakyr gets up the board. What successful methods have you found to manage this?


It's 2:15 and I'm going to bed. I'll get back to you on that. And yeah...I definitely didn't invite the change of direction. Slayer-Fan follows me to like every thread I'm in and does this.

So I'll look forward to that question tomorrow. Gnight.


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

Anrakyr can walk, or the deceiver can move him with grand illusion. That's it. A character for 167 pts. who is called the traveller can't use any other option. He should be able to teleport where ever he wants to, every turn. It's hilarious how awfully bad he is designed.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





sieGermans wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sheesh. No if you have 2 units just as effective only noob game designer would make them cost differently based on fluff. Balance needed!

Number restrictions are better though for 40k scale also stupid and artificial. White scars can and do field slower units in numbers appropriate for 40k. Blood angels have enough defensive units to make gunline ba totally appropriate in 40k


This is a totally valid game design approach. You may find that it fails to satisfy a player-base who want meaningful distinctions between factions.



Sure. Intentionally creating unbalanced game is 100% valid game design. I presume most are interested in BALANCED game though for which unit can't cost differently just because of fluff. If you do that you create unbalanced game. Surprise surprise it's what GW loves to do. GW sucks at balancing game. Anybody who points stuff based on fluff rather than abilities flat out sucks at game design.

But if you are fine with creating deliberately unbalanced game it's 100% valid game design. It just means you are designing game that sucks in balance


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jancoran wrote:
Flayed ones have done an excellent job, and their cost per kill is great. Getting them there is literally the issue for ALL assault units and The Flayed Ones don't struggle there. That's where you earn your stripes as a General is to solve those issues. But pretending like this is somehow impossible? It just hurts my head to see defeatism as an ARGUMENT.


So since you claim to be so great general howabout show how to get them there? Put your money where your mouth is and all that. So far you have shown nothing concrete but just claims that are to level of "I'm the chosen one and you all are wrong!" which is what claims without proof tend to be. There's plenty of evidence they dont' work. You claim they work but don't show any actual EVIDENCE.

So. Put your money where your mouth is. Show for starters how you get them. Getting into combat is not issue for GOOD assault units. Only for bad units. Like flayed ones. Even better go and win some big tournaments with your flayed ones. If they are as good as you claim shouldn't be any problem now would it?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/18 11:12:04


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




tneva82 wrote:
sieGermans wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sheesh. No if you have 2 units just as effective only noob game designer would make them cost differently based on fluff. Balance needed!

Number restrictions are better though for 40k scale also stupid and artificial. White scars can and do field slower units in numbers appropriate for 40k. Blood angels have enough defensive units to make gunline ba totally appropriate in 40k


This is a totally valid game design approach. You may find that it fails to satisfy a player-base who want meaningful distinctions between factions.



Sure. Intentionally creating unbalanced game is 100% valid game design. I presume most are interested in BALANCED game though for which unit can't cost differently just because of fluff. If you do that you create unbalanced game. Surprise surprise it's what GW loves to do. GW sucks at balancing game. Anybody who points stuff based on fluff rather than abilities flat out sucks at game design.

But if you are fine with creating deliberately unbalanced game it's 100% valid game design. It just means you are designing game that sucks in balance


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jancoran wrote:
Flayed ones have done an excellent job, and their cost per kill is great. Getting them there is literally the issue for ALL assault units and The Flayed Ones don't struggle there. That's where you earn your stripes as a General is to solve those issues. But pretending like this is somehow impossible? It just hurts my head to see defeatism as an ARGUMENT.


So since you claim to be so great general howabout show how to get them there? Put your money where your mouth is and all that. So far you have shown nothing concrete but just claims that are to level of "I'm the chosen one and you all are wrong!" which is what claims without proof tend to be. There's plenty of evidence they dont' work. You claim they work but don't show any actual EVIDENCE.

So. Put your money where your mouth is. Show for starters how you get them. Getting into combat is not issue for GOOD assault units. Only for bad units. Like flayed ones. Even better go and win some big tournaments with your flayed ones. If they are as good as you claim shouldn't be any problem now would it?


Units don’t have to be identical in order to have balanced systems. So long as the aggregated result of the strengths/weaknesses produces a balanced result versus the aggregated strengths/weaknesses in the opposing factions, you’ll achieve a balanced result.

Although this is harder and fraught with peril, the outcome is a far more engaging system.

The alternative would mean we don’t need different faction threads on Dakka, because everything would be the same with no in-game distinction from a mechanical interaction.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 p5freak wrote:
Anrakyr can walk, or the deceiver can move him with grand illusion. That's it. A character for 167 pts. who is called the traveller can't use any other option. He should be able to teleport where ever he wants to, every turn. It's hilarious how awfully bad he is designed.


Yeah, you can do it with Veil of Darkness, which is the simplest thing to do. Taking an entire C'Tan for it... Mmm... Little spendy for my tastes.

You can also just be patient since you won't be the nearest enemy model, and just get into position. Enemies in the ITC have to take objectives so you can get free movement there as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
sieGermans wrote:

I presume most are interested in BALANCED game though for which unit can't cost differently just because of fluff.


Well the truth is, there are plenty of apologists for unfair game balance. Theres a big section of gamers who jump on anything broken to get their rankings up and "Ah ha!" their way to victory, honestly. But you're correct that balance is better for the health of the game. I have to say, GW has been doing na admirable job, LIKE Privateer Press does, of bringing balance back when they make a mistake.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/18 17:38:35


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 Jancoran wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Anrakyr can walk, or the deceiver can move him with grand illusion. That's it. A character for 167 pts. who is called the traveller can't use any other option. He should be able to teleport where ever he wants to, every turn. It's hilarious how awfully bad he is designed.


Yeah, you can do it with Veil of Darkness, which is the simplest thing to do. Taking an entire C'Tan for it... Mmm... Little spendy for my tastes.


Show me what <DYNASTY> Anrakyr has Now i know how your flayed ones are so good, you are probably using them in an illegal way. Please read the rules first.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/18 17:44:38


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

tneva82 wrote:


So since you claim to be so great general howabout show how to get them there?


I didn't claim anything other than my standing and when it was demanded, my meta (in some detail I might add, which never should have been necessary since you dont need to win NOVA to post here as you've proven).

Telling you that isn't making a claim. It's just pointing out what's already there for you to see on your own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Anrakyr can walk, or the deceiver can move him with grand illusion. That's it. A character for 167 pts. who is called the traveller can't use any other option. He should be able to teleport where ever he wants to, every turn. It's hilarious how awfully bad he is designed.


Yeah, you can do it with Veil of Darkness, which is the simplest thing to do. Taking an entire C'Tan for it... Mmm... Little spendy for my tastes.


Show me what <DYNASTY> Anrakyr has Now i know how your flayed ones are so good, you are probably using them in an illegal way. Please read the rules first.


I don't use it. As you saw in my list I don't have the Veil. It was just a suggestion for Anrakyr. I walk mine up, when I use him. But there again... I dont use him.

Anrakyr was just used as an example earlier in the discussion about how you might buff things. It became a focal point, so I answered, but he's not even in my list. Lol. Go look.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/18 17:46:51


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 Jancoran wrote:

I don't use it. As you saw in my list I don't have the Veil. It was just a suggestion for Anrakyr. I walk mine up, when I use him. But there again... I dont use him.

Anrakyr was just used as an example earlier in the discussion about how you might buff things. It became a focal point, so I answered, but he's not even in my list. Lol. Go look.


You said you can use veil of darkness on Anrakyr. Thats wrong. You cant do that. Anrakyr has no <DYNASTY>, which is required for the veil of darkness. Read the rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/18 17:48:44


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 p5freak wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:

I don't use it. As you saw in my list I don't have the Veil. It was just a suggestion for Anrakyr. I walk mine up, when I use him. But there again... I dont use him.

Anrakyr was just used as an example earlier in the discussion about how you might buff things. It became a focal point, so I answered, but he's not even in my list. Lol. Go look.


You said you can use veil of darkness on Anrakyr. Thats wrong. You cant do that. Anrakyr has no <DYNASTY>, which is required for the veil of darkness. Read the rules.



Yup. It's never come up, but you're right. Seems like walking him, which is the only way I've done it (no points for another lord) was the right way to do it?

He's a corner case, so it's easy to forget if you don't use him. Don't be a jerk.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 Jancoran wrote:



Yup. It's never come up, but you're right. Seems like walking him, which is the only way I've done it (no points for another lord) was the right way to do it?

Like i said, he has to walk, or the deceiver can relocate him. Thats it.

He's a corner case, so it's easy to forget if you don't use him. Don't be a jerk.


Right, dont be a jerk, says the guy who doesnt know the rules. I wonder what illegal actions you did with your flayed ones to make them as good as you say they are.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 p5freak wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:



Yup. It's never come up, but you're right. Seems like walking him, which is the only way I've done it (no points for another lord) was the right way to do it?

Like i said, he has to walk, or the deceiver can relocate him. Thats it.

He's a corner case, so it's easy to forget if you don't use him. Don't be a jerk.


Right, dont be a jerk, says the guy who doesnt know the rules. I wonder what illegal actions you did with your flayed ones to make them as good as you say they are.


Okay be one then? Movin' on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/18 18:23:01


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





Slayer-Fan123: You're a grown man, you know better than to do a personal feud on an online forum. It's the internet for god's sake. Settle that gak in private with the dude.

Jancoran: You sure are full of yourself.

This is a tactics forum. Having spent the better part of the last two pages talking about yourself, what you are and what you are not, how about you talk about how to deploy Flayed Ones in the right order, and in what way, to make the best of them. It'd be genuinely interesting to discuss. Just rise above the smear, there are people up here that act normal if you just give them a chance.

Shiny 40k 8th tool with colors: dice-hammer.com 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal



Colorado

I would love to discuss how to get Flayed Ones in the action.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

torblind wrote:
Slayer-Fan123: You're a grown man, you know better than to do a personal feud on an online forum. It's the internet for god's sake. Settle that gak in private with the dude.

Jancoran: You sure are full of yourself.

This is a tactics forum. Having spent the better part of the last two pages talking about yourself, what you are and what you are not, how about you talk about how to deploy Flayed Ones in the right order, and in what way, to make the best of them. It'd be genuinely interesting to discuss. Just rise above the smear, there are people up here that act normal if you just give them a chance.


Sure. Here's what I said:
I'm not special, is what I'm trying to say. Nothing special about me. I haven't struck gold that no one else can, nor does my mind work in some labrinthine way that no one else can comprehend. I'm reading from the same codex my opponents are. Rolling against the hardest generals in the ITC regularly. I am not rolling magical dice or flouting the rules of probability. I'm just a guy. That guy went a different way in a lot of lists. I made it work. Given a little practice, you would to.

That aside, i also said: there's no board here to reference (I'll take a picture of a common one I use, and illustrate if anyone REALLY cares), there isn't an army arrayed against me to talk about the order. So that also would be difficult. I gave my list. I offered some (yes, vague) advice because what else can I do?. I stated plainly that I had not offered anyone the next NOVA OPEN winner, so I don't understand how much more humble you need me to be. I was cornered into defending my meta. I was cornered into explaining to Slayer-Fan that which he knew very well, and yeah, when someone tells you where they stand, I suppose some people just dont like you ever claiming your successes. I dont know what I can do about that.

I also openly stated that I don't use Necrons as often as other armies so to make clear that it was not the next NOVA OPEN winner. I disclosed plainly that I hadn't been to a tournament with it (but had played very good people and their tournament armies). I have been plain spoken.

All this, because I said Flayed Ones were a better value at killing than Wraiths. All of this...for that.

Seems really unnecessary to me. But I could be wrong.

Night Scythe can drop off the HQ's or you can walk them (Strategm to drop 2). I walk them as a matter of course in a fair number of the missions just because its safer, but that is very mission and opponent dependent. Some enemy forces are just too scary to try that. In any event it's a very nice option to have and it's got the ability in any event to drop off one of the Immortal Squads if that isn't going to be a part of the plan.

Once the characters are advanced into position, the Destroyers and the Tombblades form a mobile firebase to the side most needy. The Scarabs ar used to shield the characters and the firebase from incursion where necessary but if not they will streak to the nearest cover, most likely the thing in the center to control either side. They are not pivotal to the stratategy but they are incredibly valuable for locking things down and arresting anything that tries to get at the shooters. That buys me an extra 2 rounds in MOST games of shooting against melee armies which is terrific, and lets face it, Flayed Ones are great for that too. They can get a lot of buffs from the characters. The goal in the end though is to use them against firebases. Enemies are using a lot of artillery and so its important to shut that down, to clear space for assassinating characters and for forcing the enemy to have to keep some of its force back or to concede that it cannot defend the rear and force them forward into scarabs reach as the lesser of two evils. Not all armies are equipped to do all things. In a perfect world where points are limitless, sure. But in reality land, there are limits to what the enemy can stop you from doing and the firebases job is to clear the landing zone and prepare the enemy for what comes next.

Pivotal to this strategy is the idea of the Central LOS blocker which is required in every ITC mission. The SHADOW of central LOS blockers is AS important as the building itself. Using it best requires carefully choosing the order of deployment. So this too is pretty much enemy dependent. If they have very few drops, you're in good shape. FIRST the Scarabs, dead center, spot just big enough for characters in among them (that you likely will not use but you want the option and you want the guy to notice you did it.. This is a significant target and you want to lean it slightly to the best side (whatever that is for you on this board) . Slightly. Not too obviously. The psychology takes too long to explain but whatever side you basically want the enemy to go heavy on is where you lean. Give em what they want on that side and threaten to use the shadow of the building if they don't. Doomsday Arks are next. They ALSO are going to lean to the side you want the enemy on slightly... Or threaten to use the Shadow of the building to avoid their heavy firepower. This should tilt the scales if the Scarabs weren't enough. Remember not to lean too heavily, but enough. Next come two of the Immortal Squads. They drop and are almost always on objectives so there is no advice there other than to get them there eventually; but the FIRST one you drop should be on the preferred side, here again. The other BY NECESSITY is on the other, which really gives nothing away because your reasoning here is forced and not calculated to gain some advantage. It's just necessity. Now here's where the Generallilg has to come in. The enemy has now placed 5 of his units, and you've done nothing to tilt your hand. Butr now you have a choice you have to make about the third immortal Squad and thus your characters and thus your plane. You can stall that decision no longer. So the Doom Scythe is gong to be to the side that you now know your Flayed Ones eventually will want to go to (SLIGHTLY). If the enemy force says characters will survive the disembark, then you go to the side you DONT plan to shoot from because simply put you want to keep the enemy to the lean side, and this helps that. You could brave it and also put Immortals in the Tomb World. YOLO. But that's why they pay you the big bucks, to make that decision and that's going to be a game time decision every time. Now you have no choice. He's got a ton of his units down and now its time to lift the illusion. If the enemy is heavily to the lean side so it can kill you, then the Cryptek goes down to the other side. Follow that with the Destroyers. Follow that with the Tomb Blades. Why? Because the landing zone is now to the non-lean side and you need to clear it. Aaaaaand...you're done. Walking the characters into the LOS blocker and then ultimately to the non-lean side right on time for the Flayed Ones to arrive is the obvious play turns one and two. Alternatively as i said, stuff them into the plane if you know you can get away with it.

What have you accomplished with all that? Well you've given the enemy lots of targets that's for sure. That's okay and preferable, because the things you gave them are incredibly fast and can switch the field for you. The rest is in your hands but from there it seems like you can play the game for yourself. I am only able to get you to this point without an enemy and a board but that's how you do it.

If you did as I suggested, which is making it a potential third turn gambit (drop off and a round later do it) you buff them like crazy. Zhandrek debuffs the enemy guy that would otherwise make life difficult. Orikan makes the Flayed ones heartier as well with Technomancer. Avenge the Fallen or SolarMills (you may have to re-roll to get it) are the ones you're hoping for from Big Z. No guarantee there. if you walk the Flayed Ones up which would be way tougher but potentially possible since the shooting bases are potent in this list and the enemy might prioritize them or there might be sufficient cover (unlikely at first) then you can play board control by stopping the enemy from ever advancing to the midfield. As a potent deterrent they work pretty well once they find a spot. Terrain determines so much of that, that its hard to tell you what to do, but you have options which I guess is the important take away

In this way you can get up to 80 attacks hitting on 2's (sometimes 3), re-rolling all wounds and a +1 to Reanimation. Optionally you re-roll charges, 60 attacks hitting on 2's, re-rolling Wounds. somewhere between 37-51 wounds against T4. Orikan and Z aren't terrible in a fight though they aren't likely to be in one very often. It's pretty good. Perhaps more importantly the Scarabs and Flayed ones are now combining to tie up whatever you didn't want shooting you.

And if anyone reads all this, well, that'll be more than I would expect, but cool. They can do 17 unsaved wounds to a Primaris unit. Pretty good. If Orikan is around, throw the Stratagem on there... That unit could be there a while.

I wish I could afford Varguard. He'd be really cool with a lightly armored unit like these. I've been sorely tempted but Doomsday Arks are just too pivotal. The list is sort of balanced on the head of a pin as they say, so you have to kind of know what your doing. But it works.

I know the elephant of course is that if you don't make the charge... Well that's true for Wraiths as well. That's said of orks and every other good melee unit you might talk about. there's nothing I can do about that. re-rolls are possible and stratategm can do it for you partly. At end of day, it's 20 Necrons that like getting back up, so the enemy better finish them all or it's still game on. The unit is going to be pretty effective with that many rolls and you can re-roll 1's on the 4+ reanimation, so even 1 survivor is pretty dangerous (also true of most Necron units of course but twice as relevant when its that many, that close!). that takes a lot of pressure off your firebases, charge or no charge.

That took forever to write. I don't know if it will ever get read, but since you asked...

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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It's a nice write up, but it relies on everything going perfectly.

Also you highlight the other issue. A mob of 30 boys does roughly the same output versus primaris marine unit and has a much better chance of getting there AND costs 40% as much.

Sure flayed ones are slightly tougher, but it's pretty academic. Anything that can remove 30 boys can remove 20 flayed ones. They're just not good enough for their cost. They should be the same cost as a warrior.

They just don't have great output for their cost and rely on too many things going perfectly. Wraiths aren't perfect, but they're fast and tough and have decent output in combat (a full unit kills about 5 primaris marines without rerolls, only slightly below what your fully buffed up flayed one blob is managing).

If you're going all out on combat and you've already maxed out wraiths and got some lychguard then I can maybe see bringing one unit as a deep strike threat, but that's about it (and that's in combat necrons, a bad version of a bad army).
   
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That's what I figured. ugh.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/19 19:21:35


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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Have you played a game like that, and what would be a proper counter do you think, ie its weakness?

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Well one thing to keep in mind is he's talking about playing in a hardcore ITC area. Which probably means the tables are basically preset with certain terrain and the missions objectives literally are preset.

Magic boxes have a habit of making lots of things artificially improved. Especially if you can deep strike or relocate into one and set up for an over-watch free charge.

Format and meta are not focused on nearly enough n these types of threads. You can be playing Necrons 2k points but the game your playing can vary immensely beyond that point. For example an army can do very well in CA18 missions by focusing on mobility, but get absolutely wrecked in ITC which focuses on murdering the other guy.

   
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Olympia, WA

torblind wrote:
Have you played a game like that, and what would be a proper counter do you think, ie its weakness?


The weakness of this list is that it is designed to take the Engineers secondary objective, so artillery can hurt it's ability to get those points. Obviously Necrons are annoyingly resilient so they will have to have enough of it to kill ALL of them in the unit to avoid them coming back like Cockroaches, but it is one weakness of the list. So if you see a little TOO much artillery, You may have to rethink using Engineers as a Secondary, which plays to its strengths less. With board control like you are trying to exert with this list, it's usually not an issue to protect the Engineers, but if an army can get to them reasonably early its a scoring problem. Enemy planes and the like are a danger sign for you so think about those Secondaries very hard.

The second weakness it has is that Destroyers are incredibly effective and are an important part of the firebase. Unfortunately, enemies could try focusing on them singlemindedly because they know it. Now I've accounted for that in the order and way I deployed. This is actually PART of the plan, so it's not 100% a bad thing if they focus on them...but it is true that losing the Destroyer s too early does definitely hurt. We need them to help cvlear our landing zone if we are Deep Striking the Flayed Ones. If. The Tomb Blades can clear a zone more slowly, but they are really meant as the cleanup crew and more board control. The possibility definitely exists in my meta that I'll be facing Executioners and you have simply got to have the firepower to take one down to even the odds a bit.

So going after the Immortals and the Destroyers definitely helps the enemy chances if they can get it done. You know this going in and so you take precautions but the enemy spent points too. They are there to kill you and they have their master strategy also, which they are trying to carry out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Well one thing to keep in mind is he's talking about playing in a hardcore ITC area. Which probably means the tables are basically preset with certain terrain and the missions objectives literally are preset.

Magic boxes have a habit of making lots of things artificially improved. Especially if you can deep strike or relocate into one and set up for an over-watch free charge.

Format and meta are not focused on nearly enough n these types of threads. You can be playing Necrons 2k points but the game your playing can vary immensely beyond that point. For example an army can do very well in CA18 missions by focusing on mobility, but get absolutely wrecked in ITC which focuses on murdering the other guy.


Well it's the opinion of most gamers that a fair board is a better board. The ITC just institutionalized what most people already believed. In all tournaments of almosty any kind, ITC or otherwise, the TO palces the terrain for you for maximum fairness most of the time. In casual games where you are your opponent are both placing the terrain, then it is equally reasonable that I would place one in the middle. So the ITC doesn't have much to do with that. But its true that the ITC standard terrain setups call for a Centrol LOS blocker as a matter of course.

The enclosed buildings ("magic boxes") are not super frequent on tables, but would have the same effect in or out of the ITC with the notable exception that the ITC says things with the fly rule that aren't infantry get stuck in them (this was in answer to the preposterous Warp Spider thing).

The more important terrain consideration is that the bottom floor Doors and windows (but not normal gaps) are considered opaque in the ITC. That's really the rule that affects terrain per se. It makes a difference though. It takes the insane firepower currently available in the meta and tempers it slightly, by allowing infantry to hide on their way in and to actually have a chance to go cover to cover as infantry WOULD try to do. That's the one rule you actually need to know basically when playing ITC terrain.

If you are playing missions from CA18 etc... it doesnt change the fact that if your cooperating or alternating terrain placement, theres quite likely to be a Central LOS blocker. The players involved will have to work that out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/19 19:34:38


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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Pretending like most gamers can agree on whats fair is naive. A competitive player will game the format, pretending like there is some universal standard agreed upon by all gamers and spoken on behalf by the ITC is a load of crap. If the board has NOVA "L's" it will effect the list and game plan, just like any ITC format using magic boxes will. You can act like it doesn't, but your not going to be taken seriously if you go that route, at least not by me.

But that was a nice side step of my overall point but I'll steer us back on track. It doesn't matter what your discussing with another person, if you are arguing under entirely different context, your going to speak past each other.

That was the point I was making. Strolling into a thread and making a claim out of context with other gamers from all around the globe, and presuming they play under identical circumstances as you is not only a waste of time, but frankly amateur. That doesn't just apply to yourself, folks should stop and ask each other how the other guy plays the game before discussing unit viability lol.

Flayed ones 100% gain under ITC terrain rules. Not only does the first floor ruin patch boost any assault infantry units viability, but the magic box ruling makes them untargetable by anything that doesn't indirect fire, or assault. You basically get a free bunker that can't be destroyed, that you can enter from reserve and assault out of risk free. You can pretend like that is insignificant again if you want, but at least folks can understand what context your using them under if your honest about it.




   
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 Red Corsair wrote:
Pretending like most gamers can agree on whats fair is naive.


Pretending that they are always bickering children is equally naive. We all want a fair board, and we usually get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair 752626 10635826 4d245b80fb6b563682a4b444e424de3b. wrote:pngpretending like there is some universal standard agreed upon by all gamers and spoken on behalf by the ITC is a load of crap.


Except there is in the ITC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:
If the board has NOVA "L's" it will effect the list and game plan, just like any ITC format using magic boxes will.


Thats a non sequitur. No one claimed that the ITC assumption doesnt affect planning. I told you that rarely will that be different than any normal game where we both get to place trerrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:

if you are arguing under entirely different context, your going to speak past each other.

...which is exactly why I told people it would be difficult to give tactica without a board and an enemy in front of me, dude. Keep up!

So to APPEASE people like you... I assumed an ITC board and gave the outline. You can argue all day that the board MAY lack an LOS blocker. You can argue that. But you're wrong in a majority of the cases. There will be. In cooperative games, Ill place one there if he doesnt. In ITC, it will already be there. So I dont know what you're going on about.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Corsair wrote:

Flayed ones 100% gain under ITC terrain rules. Not only does the first floor ruin patch boost any assault infantry units viability, but the magic box ruling makes them untargetable by anything that doesn't indirect fire, or assault. You basically get a free bunker that can't be destroyed, that you can enter from reserve and assault out of risk free. You can pretend like that is insignificant again if you want, but at least folks can understand what context your using them under if your honest about it.


Yawn. No one "pretended" it didnt matter. So I again dont know what you're going on about. Everything "matters". Yay you for noticing. Lol. But the fasct remains that a centrol LOS blocker is essentially all the assumptions you need for the explanation to make sense. So.

All you've accomplished here is to show me that you don't want to learn. That's fine.

But thank you very much for making MY point, which is that Flayed ones are actually quite good. You know, since I told you the whole time we were discussing ITC. The whole time. So, there's that.

But really any LOS Blocker will work. Also, you wont necessarily be using any Magic Boxes to make the charge. That wont be practical all the time and that is why I TOLD you you had to clear a landing zone. You know...if you were even reading anything I said.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/11/20 17:17:49


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
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You really do love the smell of your own farts don't you? you have yourself convinced that if others would only humor you and take a whiff they might too. Only problem is... they are farts, and nobody likes the smell of those.

I have never seen someone this belligerently move a conversations focus on a whim to where ever they feel like. You have no point mate, your just trying to be confrontational while being vague.

I literally stated the importance of everyone being on the same page, and you decided to tilt on me like I was one of your windmills. I already made the mistake of playing your game a little, I won't be wasting my energy any more though by taking your bate and fencing with you aimlessly as you move goal posts

Have fun crushing folks with your flayed ones

Have a good one, but if your really fired up I think there's a windmill in the sisters thread if your interested in spinning your wheels more, but I'm adding you to my ignore list.

   
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Yeah, could you tone it down Jancoran? It looks like you can't post a single thing without that just too condescending tone or trying a just too hard to rub it extra well in when you go about showing people that they are wrong.

If you're right in all these matters, then why do you have to try so hard.

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IanVanCheese wrote:


They're just not good enough for their cost. They should be the same cost as a warrior.



Would they be played at this cost ? Or would you prefer better way to bring them in assault range but with an unchanged cost ?

   
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 godardc wrote:

Would they be played at this cost ? Or would you prefer better way to bring them in assault range but with an unchanged cost ?


11 pts. sounds ok for flayed ones.
   
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 godardc wrote:
IanVanCheese wrote:


They're just not good enough for their cost. They should be the same cost as a warrior.



Would they be played at this cost ? Or would you prefer better way to bring them in assault range but with an unchanged cost ?


At 11pts I think they'd see play in some builds. Make them a troops choice and definitely. But I agree that a better delivery system would also be great. I don't think it's an either or though, they need both really. Maybe 13pts and a better delivery system aka the Monolith actually working as it should.
   
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I would run Flayed Ones if some of the following conditions were met:

1) they get a new sculpt in PA
2) their points exist somewhere between 11-14
3) they get the Troops role

I never understood why they're classed as elites when they have many of the same characteristics as warriors. If we could stuff them in Battalions that would be nice.

Also to me it never really made sense that they get the Dynasty codes since they're surely completely bonkers and beyond following creeds or orders. but at this point I'd rather they kept them for gameplay reasons. They already have a tough enough time without being unable to transport or get generic buffs.

I've always thought they should get a bonus to charge if the target unit has lost models this turn. Like a blood in the water thing
   
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dapperbandit wrote:
I would run Flayed Ones if some of the following conditions were met:

1) they get a new sculpt in PA
2) their points exist somewhere between 11-14
3) they get the Troops role

I never understood why they're classed as elites when they have many of the same characteristics as warriors. If we could stuff them in Battalions that would be nice.

Also to me it never really made sense that they get the Dynasty codes since they're surely completely bonkers and beyond following creeds or orders. but at this point I'd rather they kept them for gameplay reasons. They already have a tough enough time without being unable to transport or get generic buffs.

I've always thought they should get a bonus to charge if the target unit has lost models this turn. Like a blood in the water thing


I'd like to see them get a buff once they've killed something. Call it Blood Frenzy, give them extra move or attacks or something after they munch a unit.
   
 
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