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Posted By migsula on 01/09/2007 10:38 AM
Space Marines Redux makes perfect sense! It's the best seller, needs to fit the new Eldar codex shown format and there have been so many new relases that need to make the book as models and will be more that can be better released together with a cool new book. Besides I love marine art and Assault Cannon should be heavy 3.

No, it doesnt make perfect sense. Perhaps for the money machine it does, but for the players it most certainly does not. GW serves the gamers, not the gamers pandering to GW.
For them to remake C:SM before others is a blatant insult and slap to the face for people who wait to play their armies in an updated version.

Yes it needs to be tweaked, but at the expense of other armies? I think not. It can wait for an upate after all other armies that desperatly need it get a taste of care from GW.

Fanboyism can only override common sense so far.

Does any of the rumoured army releases affect me? not for armies that i am playing myself, but for armies I am playing against. I hate sitting across the table and waiting to play the game knowing that the next opponent is likely to be a SM player. Not for want of playing a different army, but for want of a new codex that isnt going to nerf a current build from an older codex.

Deathwing players know this sad fact all to well, or they will when the new DA codex is realeased.

By making yet another SM codex in such a short time frame, its putting other people off from building a non Marine list. No one wants to buy models and build an army only to have it nerfed a short time later.

I say, complete the xenos codex's and then give chaos and the marines an updated codex. It was a crying shame they gave attention to tau and tyranids in the order they did simply because they already had very recently printed editions to begin with. But its done and now we can look to the future. And according to GW, the future is bright fwith tons more marines. I think we have already reached maximum capacity of that aaarmy as it is, thanks. And keep in mind I am speaking this as a marine player.

But this is my opinion just as all this is wondeful news being your opinion.

Torreador:  I'm sure you are a decent player.  I'm just to the point where I'm beyond discussing tactical possibilities - since there is a workaround for every situation, especially in a codex as varied as the Eldar one.  - The fact of the matter remains, that most players will rarely use more than half the models in most codices*... and this is where the simplified ruleset falls down IMO.

* - What I mean by "you will rarely use more than half the models in most codices" is:

Example 1:  Witchunters.  Units that will rarely be used include, stormtroopers, repentia, HQ inquisitors, penietent engines etc.  Thats not to say that they aren't good choices, but that they are either not as good as other choices, or that they run contrary to the theme of the list (faith points)

Example 2:  Space Marines.  The most popular army has units which are relatively uncommon:  Landspeeder Typhoon, Veteran Squads, Techmarines, Bike Squadrons, Attack Bikes, Land Raiders ... It is not so much that these units are bad, but that there are better choices within the same slot in the force org chart.

Merely including sub-par units in a list is a pointless exercise.  Every unit should have a purpose, and if it does not fulfil that purpose, or another unit does it better, then that unit should be cut.  If the rules were not so rigidly simplified, there could be wiggle room in the statline to make these units more competitive.  As it stands, a unit like the Typhoon is nowhere in the same league as the Tornado for similar cost, and is terribly overcosted compared to the stock Landspeeder.  Another example is that if Leadership was actually important, then higher Ld Marine Veterans might actually be important, instead of being overpriced tactical marines.  If Repentia were faster, they might actually be used in non Cities of Death games.

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 01/09/2007 11:06 AM

Posted By migsula on 01/09/2007 10:38 AM

ORKS take your time and then ambush us with fantastic new plastics, vehicles, drednoughts, bikes, storm boyz the lot. I'm all for a little bit longer wait, since it's really the models more than the rules that define the release schedules.

Well rumours say that Nelson isn't doing them AND they're redoing the plastic boys, so unless it's a recut I'm angry.

In any case I'm not touching them if Nelson didn't do them.

I don't care if they cloned Auguste Rodin to sculpt them, it has been what 10 years since they came out with a book for the Orks.  The book had better damned well write the list for me and the new minis had better move around and attack my opponents and cook me dinner.

Posted By Toreador on 01/08/2007 3:37 PM
It also is almost as close as you can get to a collectible card game. If I want to get into the game at the moment and have the books with all of the rules for the units I want to field, and for an idea of what they can do without buying the figs, I am outlaying a bunch of moolah.

there is also a lot of power creep. PP reminds me a lot of Collectible card games, but within the miniature hobby. You almost HAVE to buy the newest things to keep competitive. It is a very nice business model, because it keeps everyone excited, but it also is one of the things that turns me off of the game.

Have you played Warmachine?  I wager I can beat you 5 out of 7 with a purely Prime list.  In fact, a purely prime list of any faction (not mercs, they aren't a faction ).  There is no power creep in PP.  Sure--the units get much better with their unit attachments, weapon attachments, etc.--but they also cost more.  So I don't take them, and instead of spending 28 points on a unit attachment, I take Eiryss.  OK.  It'll still work.  And there are still nasty units in Prime.  Heck, some of the nastiest casters are in prime--I gaurantee that Kreoss, Sorscha, Haley, Deneghra, Vlad, and Skarre are probably the best casters in the game.  All of the post-Prime casters are weaker in some fashion, with the notable exception of Darius.

I have played Warmachine, and in the Prime days I was repeatedly slapped around by Khador. Menoth had an uphill battle most of the time.

The Campaign that ran here over the last several months turned into an absolute power game, and as soon as cav came out, it got crazy. It is one of the draws of the game, but also one of the detractions for me. I have gotten in and out of the game twice now, and I might be getting back in by way of Hordes....

There is absolutely power creep in Warmachine. The game is based around the powergame. Each new book adds new units that help out the factions and help out units. Cygnar has become fairly over the top vs some factions compared to what they were in Prime. They have become amazingly shooty!

Keezus, I dare you to make a game with any sort of complication where all units are useful and most all situations. I think the sisters list does need some adjustments, but it was good for a first go. That is the problem with most lists, in the theoretical world sometimes look a lot different than out in play in our world.

My thoughts on Space Marines Redux are this. They have found that they can tweak the codex and balance it out more. In working on the other marine factions they have found issues in games they didn't see before. Again, this is going to take little resource for them to accomplish. They know the changes, they just have to type it all up. They can push this out and might even fit more the idea of the how the other marine books will fit in.

Orks is taking longer because orks needs to take longer. We get "estimates" on when something can come out, this includes all development and model work. Anyone that has ever worked at any company knows that can entirely change due to many factors. So again, like the Tau redo. Few resources and they can get it out the door. It is changes they feel they need to do, or more additions they want to do. It doesn't affect anything else because of this and is a nice filler.

Or, it could be a great conspiracy. Either way, doesn't bother me.

Posted By fleshcross on 01/08/2007 1:56 PM

Posted By Caern on 01/08/2007 1:45 PM

Posted By Samwise158 on 01/08/2007 1:27 PM
L.O.T.R. has most definitely negatively impacted the 40k/Fantasy side of the hobby.  Ruin of Arnor? Fall of the Necromancer?  Does anyone care?  I've played demo games of it a few times and found it be a very dull game.  Not only that, but how different can a man of Gondor and a man of Arnor be?  I'd like to see them drop that game and put their heads together to make a solid Ork army list and improve the longevity of 40k.

Agreed. Every dollar, every hour of labour, every moment just spent sitting and thinking of how to expand the line, that is wasted on LOTR is a dollar, an hour, a moment that could have been going into producing, promoting, and enhancing Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 instead and making them stronger games and brands.

You know, it's a shame, too, because there's actually some cool stuff they could do with LotR. They could do a whole set of Black Numenorians, they could do the fall of Gondolin, there's all sorts of "historical" stuff that's far more interesting than the Trilogy stuff that they're doing, but I guess that's another issue.

IIRC, GW tried and failed to get the rights for The Silmarillion, so we won't ever see an expansion for the fall of Gondolin, the war against morgoth, etc. Hence the continuous spinning out of the trilogy, to the extent of largely inventing new parts of Middle Earth. Enough is enough.

Posted By Toreador on 01/09/2007 2:36 PM


Orks is taking longer because orks needs to take longer.

No, Orks are taking longer because the bean counters know that 12 year olds will not buy Orks like they buy Space Marines. 

As far as the Codex release schedule is concerned, If the goal is to nerf.. I mean balance.. two of the most abusable lists then this might not be such terrible news for MEQ players, but it will piss a lot of people off.  The Marine and Chaos lists are both pretty well done, if they have problems with one or two pieces, they should just do the math and release an update.

The other potentially galling thing about Space Marine Redux would be if they try to force current marine players to buy another 20$ Codex.  If this is an amendment it should be treated as such and published as a PDF file that Marine players can print out and stick in the back of their codex.  A revised book could be released for those who don't yet own the codex, but if it invalidates the old book entirely that would be a real low blow.

SM Redux could be both. When DE got their upgrade (which was admittidly quite minimal) it was published online, in WD, and as a printed codex. Maybe they'll do that again.

But I don't think so. Surely it doesn't take 6 months to do what should be minimal work.

It could easily be an extensive rewrite to bring it into line with the Dark Angels codex (5 or 10-man squads only, etc.). Asking players to buy a book every four years isn't really much of an imposition, in my opinion. Especially if we get jetbikes...

Kinda like everyone prefers metal to plastic? Should we start another vote thread? Or is the consistent disagreement from everyone in this thread enough?

To some extent yak is right, it's a subjective call as to the relative quality of the models coming out of GW. But I'm not as kind as him. You're simply wrong. Some people might think that eating poop is fun. They have a right to their opinion. But their opinion is simply wrong.

As yak says, stack the current lines up to previous lines and compare. Take Eldar, for example. Rangers look better. Scorps and Banshees look better. It all looks better. Name one new Eldar model that's worse than previous models?

Name one model that was worse than what it replaced?

Hell, name one bad model released in the last year, period. I need some context to just how wrong you're prepared to be while everyone is watching.

chaos posessed

hehehe, sorry, I love GW minis, but I had to say it

Posted By Phryxis on 01/09/2007 7:10 PM

As to the drop in quality, there absolutely has been a drop there whether or not you want to admit it.

Kinda like everyone prefers metal to plastic? Should we start another vote thread? Or is the consistent disagreement from everyone in this thread enough?

Except, if you had been paying attention, which in your zeal to troll me you obviously hadn't been,  I have never said everyone (or even a majority) prefers metal to plastic. What I *DID* say was that metal is clearly capable of finer and higher levels of detail than plastic, which it is. It's called undercuts, something that is impossible with injected plastic molding. Just because you can tack some clunky plastic bit in place of something that was previously finely sculpted and snug to the figure does not equate to better detail.

Posted By Phryxis on 01/09/2007 7:10 PM
To some extent yak is right, it's a subjective call as to the relative quality of the models coming out of GW. But I'm not as kind as him. You're simply wrong. Some people might think that eating poop is fun. They have a right to their opinion. But their opinion is simply wrong.

As yak says, stack the current lines up to previous lines and compare. Take Eldar, for example. Rangers look better. Scorps and Banshees look better. It all looks better. Name one new Eldar model that's worse than previous models?

Name one model that was worse than what it replaced?

Hell, name one bad model released in the last year, period. I need some context to just how wrong you're prepared to be while everyone is watching.

Wow, enjoy eating your crow: Chaos Possessed, which are bone jarringly awful.  Crap replacement figures? Uh, try the equally terrible Space Marine Scouts. One of GW's worst plastic sets to ever come out. Twice (ie: Scout Snipers). Thanks to their one-postion only arm poses they are no more posable than the originals and considerably less detailed and much uglier sculpts to boot.

Ah, the Tau Vespids for another. How could I forget those? Then there are the tree-trunk legs planted wide, arms waving in the air like they don't care screaming bald headed chaplains. Or (most) of the upcoming new libraians in the same awful poses. Or the equally blocky upcoming Dark Angels. Spase Marinez!!! Hurr! I think you've been humiliated enough, so I'll stop now. Enjoy!

They should get whoever did those sculpts to do the Orks.  Have an Ork Clan that look like drunken football hooligans.  They would jump right off the shelves.

You said that the trend towards plastic models is proof that GW has "completely lost touch with their customer base." I take that to mean that you think their customers want metal. Is that not what it means?



Ok, chalk one up for you. You can't remember what you've said in the past, but you did name some horrible models that I forgot about. You're right, the new Possessed models totally suck. And they're metal.



You really hate those Scouts, huh? I don't know what to tell you about that. I like them a lot, enjoyed painting them a lot, got tons of compliments on mine...



Uhh, no? They're plastic. I don't care if they were single piece plastic models, they're still more poseable. Yes, they're less poseable than, say, the plastic Marine models. They're still much easier to modify than metal. For example, you can point their heads and twist their waists withouth any additional effort. There's more to a pose than the position of the arms.

I don't see them as being less detailed, either. They're much, much more of a pain to assemble, but they've got gear that you can glue on wherever you want, and since it's glued on undercutting isn't a factor. Undercutting only goes so far, and it doesn't go as far as glued on pieces. The glued on pieces are yet another way to personalize them that isn't possible (or at least practical) with metals.

But, you know what? I'll just pretend your random, knee-jerk opinions are all valid. The entire Eldar line is better than before (I count 10+ new models), even where metal replaces plastic. In fact, the plastic Warwalkers and Wraithlord are more detailed than the metals they replaced. Most of the Space Marine line is better (Terminators, several of the Chaplains, the new Marines sprue is better). The Venerable Dread is pretty terrible, and all metal...

But, in any case, if you were right, more than 50% of the replacements to come out recently would be worse. That's just not the case.

Aw, what's the matter, did having multiple people point out out your random knee-jerk opinions were wrong hurt your feelings that you now have to back peddle, make up excuses and grossly exaggerate (if not outright fabricate) what I've said? Oh, and one of my complaints *is* that the metals are getting substantially worse. Glad to see you agree there too.

Perhaps if you weren't so intent on trolling you would have seen that I have complemented sculpts like the Warwalker (whose rules aren't great, but the model rocks) as well as the upcoming Harlies (oh, wait, those are metal too... hmmm). That said, they're the exception, not the rule. And what does this derail troll have to do with the release schedule anyway? Please crawl back under from whatever rock (bridge?) you climbed out from. Thanks!

I think that one major reason for the time between codex releases is just printing time. They make a lot of codexes, overseas for affordability - China, most like - and it takes about 2 months to get them printed and shipped back to GW, who then has to ship them off from there. Gork knows that when I've looked into overseas printing, that's about how long it takes for 500 to 1000 books, give or take a couple weeks.

They do some proofreading, some tweaks, new art takes time, layout, it all takes time. My sketchbooks are only 64 pages (of which I nly do 32 pages) and that takes a while to put together. Granted, I am doing that in my off time away from work, but book layout and design is a lengthy process.

GW's timeframe has a few things in there that we are not seeing or thinking about, I believe.

Incredibly dissapointed in no orks this year. Just flabbergasted. I'll save a lot f money buying no GW product this year, let me tell you. Back to playing World of Warcraft.

In all fairness, having a separate codex for each Chaos god is no more ridiculous than having a separate codex for BT, DA, BA, and SW.  World Eaters have less in common with Thousand Sons than Dark Angels with Blood Angels.  This would also give them the chance to not only release plastic noise marines, plague marines, and Thousand Sons, but also revisit some of the choices that have fallen by the wayside over the years (Beasts of Nurgle?).

What I'm afraid of is that they might go down the same path as the loyalist codices (basically reprints of Codex: Space Marines with a few different special rules and wargear) - ie, Codex: World Eaters might just be a reprint of the Chaos Space Marine codex + the Book of Khorne.  If there's no new content, just the same old content spread out over 5 books, I'm gonna be sad.  And if they don't include cultists in the Chaos codex I'm gonna be even sadder.  But even then at least they won't be like, "oops, we ran out of time and forgot to make Tzeentch not suck."

Codex: Space Marines Redux could be a good thing if they fix some of the problems with first one.  Maybe fix Raven Guard and White Scars so they actually, oh I don't know, play like how they're supposed to?  Of course the danger is that they'll simplify everything (a la Codex: Eldar) and do away with the whole trait system.  It's going to be sad if they turn every marine army into just Ultramarines with a different color - if everyone is going to play them, they at least should get some variety.

That said, I think this all comes down to GW feeling the heat financially and so they're going back to the space marine well one more time.

Posted By Phryxis on 01/08/2007 2:08 PM
So, get a production staff of 36 people, and you should be able to put a Codex out every month.

I'm sure they could manage that if they wanted to.  But that is not part of their business model.  They only release a codex when there are models to release along with it.  And they release models at a glacial pace because they don't want to saturate the market with choice.  The idea is that the average gamer will spend ~$X in a year, so they only release ~$X worth of minis in a year.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 01/09/2007 10:57 PM

In all fairness, having a separate codex for each Chaos god is no more ridiculous than having a separate codex for BT, DA, BA, and SW. 

Actually it is a lot more ridiculous. An Undivided army will use aspects of the different Gods, such as cult troops, daemons, etc. Having them in a different book means that some players will need to buy several books, and also there's the fact that they will be seperated by several months. But that's speculation, we really don't know what will be in these books.

Posted By fourganger88 on 01/10/2007 4:34 AM
An Undivided army will use aspects of the different Gods, such as cult troops, daemons, etc. Having them in a different book means that some players will need to buy several books, and also there's the fact that they will be seperated by several months.

That would be the case if the current undivided army list remained unchanged.  They could always "reimagine" the Chaos undivided army so as to not include god-specific cult troops.  Or they could decide to differentiate between cult troops in the vanilla list and cult troops from the dedicated lists.  Why should every Tzeentch-worshipper be a Thousand Son?  And they could always leave the door open for the inclusion of cult troops as allies.  Afterall, imperials have to buy several books in order to use inquisitors in their SM or IG armies.

There's no reason to insist that the undivided army list have access to ALL the god specific gear/units/etc.  They could just include daemon packs in the undivided codex and leave daemonic beasts/cavalry/etc to the specific codices.

That seems a very inefficient way of doing things. Ergo, that's probably what will happen.

The main doubt in my mind about the 5 codex system is that GW can release 5 balanced, unique, and versatile army lists.  I'm sure in 2009, tournaments will be overrun by the unstoppable Nurgle army of doom and no one will play Iron Warriors.  Considering the points about publishing timeframes, I'd trust GW to do a better job making one balanced book that encompassed all the gods rather than have 5 teams working on 5 books.  Not only that, but the Chaos codex is still one of the best codexii around.  GW should get the rest of their ducks (Orks, Necrons, =][=, IG, DE) in a line before they start second guessing their own releases.  This is the sort of news that kills consumer confidence.

See I used to be a die hard SW player but I lost intrest in them partially because GW has a problem that is starting to look like forcing players to play SM based armies which was the reason for me to jump ship about 3 years ago and build an Eldar army. Now that I have a new book for that and an ass load of new plastics and new sculpts I am very glad I did.

One thing that was really starting to get on my nerves was that at my local shops if you didn't play SM or Chaos you were kind of an outsider. In fact I am willing to bet that if I went to my local shop on saturday that I would see tables covered with nothing but SM facing SM. So the thought of yet another relese of the SM book is just foul... get the remaining xenos books out first.

As far as Chaos is concerend I think it needs to be done in seperate books like what they are doing with marines. 5 SM books 5 Chaos books... though I guess we will just have to wait and see how this turns out.

I have been a proponent of the five chaos books for a while now. My reasoning was simple, it puts Chaos on the same level as loyalist space mairnes.

Let's all be honest with our selves. Space Marines are the most popular army out there. Their very nature lends itself to newer players. I know that I didn't start winning as a new player until I started Space Marines.

So my arguement is, if Space Marines have the biggest following, let there be 10 (!) codexes that are Space Marine Related. Diversity in a popular army prohibits any dullness their may be by playing against Space Marines all the time.

The idea of restricting and putting the "codex" into Codex Space Marines is a great idea. The latest version of the Space Marine codex is easily the most competitve codex around right now (with maybe the exception of a few Tyranid builds and Chaos). If you tone them down slightly, it would enchorage more diversity in lists. The Eldar codex is a great example of this idea, there is not one "super competitve" build, yet nobody is arguing that the codex is not competive.

I like the idea of giving each Chaos diety a codex. If effort was put into each dex, the legion specific armie we see now will be more diverse and balanced in their playstyle.

The only complaint I have is the order. Why realease Undivided first. Wouldn't it be easier to release the diety codexs first? That way you still have the old (current) codex for the other armies and you just say that this codex replaces the book in the current dex. That way once you release the Undivided Codex, no cult specific legion players have to wait for their book.

Posted By Samwise158 on 01/10/2007 6:43 AM
The main doubt in my mind about the 5 codex system is that GW can release 5 balanced, unique, and versatile army lists. 

The answer is an unqualified no.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 01/10/2007 4:58 AM

Posted By fourganger88 on 01/10/2007 4:34 AM
An Undivided army will use aspects of the different Gods, such as cult troops, daemons, etc. Having them in a different book means that some players will need to buy several books, and also there's the fact that they will be seperated by several months.

That would be the case if the current undivided army list remained unchanged.  They could always "reimagine" the Chaos undivided army so as to not include god-specific cult troops.  Or they could decide to differentiate between cult troops in the vanilla list and cult troops from the dedicated lists.  Why should every Tzeentch-worshipper be a Thousand Son?  And they could always leave the door open for the inclusion of cult troops as allies.  Afterall, imperials have to buy several books in order to use inquisitors in their SM or IG armies.

There's no reason to insist that the undivided army list have access to ALL the god specific gear/units/etc.  They could just include daemon packs in the undivided codex and leave daemonic beasts/cavalry/etc to the specific codices.

BUT it hurts people like me who love the imagery of the Word Bearers.  I love the the fact that they straddle the line between all the gods and worship chaos in its entirety.  After all- polytheism is more common then not in a historical sense.  The thing is, if they distance the undivided guys from the individual gods some of the blended themes I like to do (like an army that's mostly skewed to one or two gods but maintains some other influences) become tougher to achieve.  Well, maybe not harder, but not easier! 

The whole point of an undivided codex, in my mind, should be to tie the other four together.  So, logically, it should go last, no? 

If we do see the undivided codex go first I'd say the likelihood of the fabled generic plastic daemons is high.  And I, for one, would rather not see that unless they bring back the other lesser gods like Mahal. 

Posted By Mahu on 01/10/2007 8:35 AM
The only complaint I have is the order. Why realease Undivided first. Wouldn't it be easier to release the diety codexs first? That way you still have the old (current) codex for the other armies and you just say that this codex replaces the book in the current dex. That way once you release the Undivided Codex, no cult specific legion players have to wait for their book.

My guess is that undivided will be the "baseline" codex and the deity codices will be variations on it.  Also remember that all further codices are supposed to be self-contained so the deity codices will NOT have any "refer to Codex: Chaos Space Marines" bits.

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 01/10/2007 11:58 AM
The thing is, if they distance the undivided guys from the individual gods some of the blended themes I like to do (like an army that's mostly skewed to one or two gods but maintains some other influences) become tougher to achieve.  Well, maybe not harder, but not easier!

I doubt they'd prohibit the undivided list from taking deity-specific choices altogether.  I'm sure you'll still be able to include bloodletters, daemonettes, etc.  However, that doesn't mean that the undivided list needs access to every last Khorne unit and piece of Slaaneshi wargear.

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 01/10/2007 11:58 AM
If we do see the undivided codex go first I'd say the likelihood of the fabled generic plastic daemons is high.  And I, for one, would rather not see that unless they bring back the other lesser gods like Mahal. 

That would be horrible IF they were to also discontinue the current excellent metal daemons (daemonettes and horrors are very nice models).  I'd hate to see all the lesser daemons get reduced to add-on sprues for a generic plastic daemon set.

If they do indeed plan on doing 5 Chaos books then it makes sense to release the first of them sooner rather than later so as to spread them out more and not have 2 years of only Chaos releases.  Of course it sucks for Orks and whatnot to get pushed back, but they aren't gonna be releasing 6 Ork klan codices (even though it would be awesome if they did).

Also, if they're going to revise (ie, nerf) the marine codex they really need to promptly re-do Chaos as well, otherwise the whining, wailing, and gnashing of teeth of the little SM munchkins will be deafening.  You already see a good amount of it now with the current dexes - think of how bad it would be if SM got nerfed and Chaos still had its current dex!  "How come Chaos can do that and I can't?  Daemon princes are soooo cheesy!  I want my rending assault cannons and cheap drop pods back!!  Waaaa!!!"

All of this just proves that Kid_Kyoto, way back in 03/04, was right on target. 4th ed. should have come out in the same style as 3rd ed., with all the codicies of 3rd ed. being rendered inoperable and new lists brought forward in the back of 4th ed., to have codicies come out from that point on, balanced specifically for the game. I wish I had seen it his way then, but hindsight is 20/20.

Feh. I should never have gotten rid of my 3rd. ed. rulebook.

Plenty of used copies floating around...