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Codex: SM is being redone? WHY? Its a complete 4th Ed codex. Oh you mean you want to FIX the things that are wrong with it? Release good old Chapter Approved articles and patch it then when a new print run comes along, print it with the corrections.

GW, you DO NOT have the luxury of doing important things such as launching new codices TWICE because the first time wasn't the best. Use FAQ's, use CA and fix it up in a new print run and not waste a full launch on it.

I concur with the above. The Age of 3+ Saves is dawning, and it looks to be a ghastly future.

The drop of assualt cannon from 2 bCK TO ONE WONT MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR ME AS i USED TO ONLY USE 1 ANYWAY FROM 3RD EDITION. Oops caps lock was on. No big deal I am used to marine armies losing to tau and eldar so its looks like marines are going back to the crap old days.

There is something wrong, however, when the best performing marine armies don't really contain any marines!

Let's just go back to the army lists in the third edition rulebook.
Best. Games. of. 40k. Ever

I don't believe the "redux" will occur. This is an honest question - has there ever been an instance where GW toned down a codex within the same version? I've seen DE / DA / IG and chaos (IIRC on that one) get redoes in 3rd edition, but they generally improved the lists slightly. I've seent ehm tone down a list between versions (Nid codex comes to mind), but never within the version.

Normally this being a rumor would not have me upset but this is the second time I've overheard this schedule, so I'm fairly suire there's something to it.

Personally, my feeling is that GW is digging their own grave here. The vast majorioty of gamers cannot or will not keep shelling out more and more of their salary every month for "new" product, especially when that "new" product is simply revised. GW is reaching a saturation point and it'll be hit at the lastest by 2008.

I was consideringh starting a new army - CSMs or SMs - but I'm loathe to do so if my current army lists/models will become null and void within the next year. Honestly, I stopped by the Inifiniti site last week, downloaded the Quick Start Rules, and now this is even more of an impetus to spend my money on that game, rather than more 40K.

And, yes, they will do SM Redux - maybe not to tone it down, but to rewrite an imbalanced army and make more money...

What percentage of players are marine players?

Will all these players have to buy a new codex?

Isn't there a thread about GW's profit slide?

Hmmmm....

Codex Marines Redux Rumours: - REMEMBER, YOU READ IT HERE FIRST!

Drop pods have been adjusted to reflect the fact that they give up half victory points when they land. This has been fixed. The new profile is 0 points, AV13 all the way around but does not include weapons however.

In order to "encourage" players to take more regular tactical marines and in larger squads, the following changes will be made to the Bolter entry: Space Marines are the mostly highly trained soldiers in the Imperium and the Bolter is their weapon of the Emperor's holy retribution. To represent their supreme skill at arms, the Marine bolter profile will be changed to the following:

Marine Bolter: Range 24" Rapidfire, S4 AP5, Rending, Counts as a 2nd HTH weapon. True Grit now counts the Bolter as 24" Assault 2 instead.

Assault Cannons have been reduced in price by 5 points across the codex. Multi-meltas and Plasma-Cannons have been raised in price by 15 points in order to balance this change.

Space Marine Librarians are masters of the mystic arts. As such, Librarians gain this additional ability:

Emperor's Prescience: Before the first turn, all Marine units may fire once at an enemy unit within LOS following all normal shooting rules, regardless of whether Night Fight is in effect for this mission.

Space Marine Masters are consumate strategists. As such, reserve rolls gain +1 and may be rerolled. In addition, D6 units may be repositioned up to 6" from their positions after inital deployment. Units may NOT be moved outside thier deployment zones.

We feel that these changes will do much to add to the flavour of the Emperor's Finest and make the army much more fun to play against. - GW Dev Team

(This was a joke)

This has to be one of the most idiotic of all GW moves I've seen. Codex Chaos in FIVE volumes? Uh, no thanks. Pushing Orks back another year? Good going there. Codex Space Marines Redux... uh, what? Why? Most obnoxious of all is the five volume Chaos dex. What the hell? Either do a double thick version with everything, or two volumes, but FIVE? huh? 

I bet they all come with price increases too...

Hurray for fair use!!! Time was I used to have every codex within a week of it coming out. Now I haven't bought a new codex since 4th edition.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 01/08/2007 7:17 AM
This has to be one of the most idiotic of all GW moves I've seen. Codex Chaos in FIVE volumes?

Realistically, this (if true) is just GW "promoting" Chaos to the current loyalist system.  Space Marines, after all, are in five volumes.

One would hope it would mean more divergent (and, if one was felling particularly optimistic, interesting) Chaos lists.  We shall see, though.  I'm betting on something absurd like Dreadclaws with assault ramps, though.

Wait so Orks got pushed back AGAIN?

MOTHER@#$!@#ING GOD D#@$!@ CO@#$@ SU@#$@*ING AS$$!@LES WITH A BROOM STICK!!!!

Wow... Just, wow. Every time I convince myself to not quit 40k, I see stuff like this. I don't even care about the cost. $20 every few months just doesn't bother me. What bothers me is knowing that I'm going to have less fun playing 40k every year.

Until the non-power armor armies are stronger (eldar, IG, Orks, and Tau), every list will be either Marines geared up to kill Marines, or the occaisional non-marine army geared up to kill Marines. Orks need an update critically. IG are almost as bad, but could be fixed easily with a few point drops on some units (guard squads down to 50pts, ogryn to 20pts a piece, and stormtroopers to 9pts), and possibly making the chimera AV11 on the side. However, I'll need to wait three years to get a new IG codex, that, like the current one, with fix all the problems the army has in 4th edition. A year later, 5th ed will come out and nerf my army again. Hurray!

People have been ragging on GW for years: about prices, about support, tournaments, the Sisters codex, etc. Obviously people keep buying the stuff, perhaps not in the record numbers, but here's my proposal: buy nothing except codex updates for current armies, and any new units that get introduced (like the pirhana, or the brood lord). Do not buy or build new armies, even 2nd hand. buy no accesories, paints, brushes, etc. Don't buy White Dwarf (huge sacrafice there). Play 40k as you normally do, but spend some time and money trying out new games.

One of two things will happen. After a year or two, GW rights itself, we all find that the other games aren't as interesting as we hoped, and hopefully things improve. Alternativly, we all find that Warmachine/Flames of War/Confrontation/etc. are even better than 40k, and GW finds itself actually fighting for market share. Either way, we win as customers.

Right now, the worst thing we can do is to lambast the swill GW puts out for us, and then go out and buy it. It is simply time for us to "put up, or shut up." I, for one, am going to put off the Tau army i was going to build, and instead return to my roots, and paint Reaper minis for fun.

Well *I'll* go back to playing sisters...

If they actually push back the Ork codex again to do the Space Marine codex again....

I don't think I have the words.  Idiotic just doesn't say it.

I'm sick of marine releases.  This is coming from me - I've played marines ever since I started playing 40k when I was about 14 (so 6-7 years ago) when a 10-man Tactical squad box was $20.  GW is making me resent marines, the army that used to be my favorite.

I just don't know what else to say....besides that I really enjoy playing and painting Flames of War. 

You snooze, you lose, Games Workshop.

I simply don't believe they'd release a new SM Codex in 2007. I just don't believe it.

Perhaps a new edition, with some fixes and tweaks... But I just don't believe they'll redo the whole codex, and treat it as a big rollout. I just don't believe it. I know everyone is hard on GW, but I don't think so. Even they wouldn't do that.

If they don't release Codex Orks in 2007... I don't know what to say... Like, I'd threaten to stop playing their games, but that's just childish. I enjoy the time I spend painting miniatures, and I'm not going to cut off my own nose just to spite my face. But, that said, I'd really appreciate it if GW would stop punching me in the damn nose.

I really shouldn't put much stock in these rumors, but it seems like Warseer and Brimstone tend to be pretty accurate, so I count what they say as being, at least, in consideration. The idea that GW would even CONSIDER putting off Orks to 2008 makes me long for them to go out of business, so somebody else can fill the void.

I'm sure it will elicit shrieks of derision from the 2nd Edition Fanbois, but I wish Hasbro would buy GW and do with them like they did with DnD. I don't even care what that means, it could only be an improvement.

If it means better written, more streamlined rules with core information that's freely downloadable, sign me up.

I really have to wonder if the protectionism of GW's codex sales is really worth the large list of almost useless models created by incremental non-updated codex releases.

And it remains to be seen if the "Redux" codex is an actual new codex, or an amended second printing. The latter doesn't really deserve derision -- as long as there's some manner of FAQ available detailing the difference between the printings.

Hasbro/WotC has some great games and some mediocre ones. They did a fabulous job with D&D, a mediocre one with Star Wars and a horrid one with Battletech.

It could be good or bad. That said, with the money they'd spend acquiring GW (if they did), they'd have a major incentive to do things right.

Posted By Asmodai on 01/08/2007 11:54 AM
They did a fabulous job with D&D, a mediocre one with Star Wars and a horrid one with Battletech.

Are you confusing Hasbro/WotC with WizKids?  Are you talking about the clicky Mechwarrior game or the new Battletech: Total Warfare book?

Posted By Hordini on 01/08/2007 11:56 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 01/08/2007 11:54 AM
They did a fabulous job with D&D, a mediocre one with Star Wars and a horrid one with Battletech.

Are you confusing Hasbro/WotC with WizKids?  Are you talking about the clicky Mechwarrior game or the new Battletech: Total Warfare book?

WizKids did Battletech? OK.

Well, I'm sure there are games WotC did a horrid job on.

I realize I'm probably ruining the tone of this thread, but I'm betting that what we'll see in terms of additional Chaos codicies will be Legion-specific (i.e. Codex: World Eaters), not cult-specific (i.e. Codex: Khorne). Using the SM codices as the blueprint, what would make the most sense is for GW to do a generic Chaos codex, similar to what we have now, followed by separate complete codicies for WE, DG, EC and TS. That way undivided armies can still have their bloodletters, berzerkers etc. and even WE, etc. players can field their armies until they get a full codex treatement.

I have no inside info, it's just my speculation. But it's the only thing that really makes sense when you consider all the problems that making players wait 3 years for Codex: Slaanesh would cause. Personally, I think a cleaned-up Chaos codex (with LatD elements inserted) and full codicies for the big 4 legions would be positives, although I'd prefer to see the Orks released first.

Let the ranting resume...

Man, if I played Orks I would probably start commiting acts of terrorism against GW.  GW has the time and resources to go a good job with the Orks it just needs to focus its attention on the releases that will actually do well.  Codex Eldar (with the exception of the poorly worded rules) is a pretty well done codex, and from my subjective viewpoint has intensely boosted interest and sales for that race.  A well done Codex Orks would do the exact same thing.  The problem with releasing a single codex devoted to each loyalist/traitor marine chapter is that it will only generate a minor amount of interest.  Meanwhile Orks, Dark Eldar, I.G., and Inquisitorial armies will see fewer and fewer players.

In order to really improve the game, GW needs to think long term.  What changes will 5th Ed. bring?  How can the current Codex system be altered to provide more balanced and sustainable gameplay that will endure even if they change the core rules substantially.  The problem with Codexii now is that each new release binds GW to the current rules set.  If the imbalances in the game are going to be fixed, they should be fixed by the rulebook.

And another thing...

L.O.T.R. has most definitely negatively impacted the 40k/Fantasy side of the hobby.  Ruin of Arnor? Fall of the Necromancer?  Does anyone care?  I've played demo games of it a few times and found it be a very dull game.  Not only that, but how different can a man of Gondor and a man of Arnor be?  They seem to be wearing different hats but that's about it.  I'd like to see them drop that game and put their heads together to make a solid Ork army list and improve the longevity of 40k.

As I noted in the declining profit thread, GW's dogged determination to stick with the 'codex' format is part of their problem in my opinion. It dosen't support the game as a whole and just makes customers angry as they wait 7+ years for a codex for a race that is supposed to be a central part of the 40K universe.

Revisiting their product delivery format in light of the current industry trends would be a welcome start. A rulebook with the basic troop types and charactres for each army would go a long way in fixing these issues so that everyone started on an even playing field. Subsiquent books should include rules and entries for all of the races so they continually support all of the offerd armies.

My .02

Posted By Samwise158 on 01/08/2007 1:27 PM
L.O.T.R. has most definitely negatively impacted the 40k/Fantasy side of the hobby.  Ruin of Arnor? Fall of the Necromancer?  Does anyone care?  I've played demo games of it a few times and found it be a very dull game.  Not only that, but how different can a man of Gondor and a man of Arnor be?  I'd like to see them drop that game and put their heads together to make a solid Ork army list and improve the longevity of 40k.

Agreed. Every dollar, every hour of labour, every moment just spent sitting and thinking of how to expand the line, that is wasted on LOTR is a dollar, an hour, a moment that could have been going into producing, promoting, and enhancing Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 instead and making them stronger games and brands.

Posted By Lowinor on 01/08/2007 11:43 AM
And it remains to be seen if the "Redux" codex is an actual new codex, or an amended second printing. The latter doesn't really deserve derision -- as long as there's some manner of FAQ available detailing the difference between the printings.

Yup, it could be nothing more than what they've done with the Chaos Codex 4 times so far... just that they've finally learnt that when they revise a codex, it might be worth actually telling people about it...

Posted By Caern on 01/08/2007 1:45 PM

Posted By Samwise158 on 01/08/2007 1:27 PM
L.O.T.R. has most definitely negatively impacted the 40k/Fantasy side of the hobby.  Ruin of Arnor? Fall of the Necromancer?  Does anyone care?  I've played demo games of it a few times and found it be a very dull game.  Not only that, but how different can a man of Gondor and a man of Arnor be?  I'd like to see them drop that game and put their heads together to make a solid Ork army list and improve the longevity of 40k.

Agreed. Every dollar, every hour of labour, every moment just spent sitting and thinking of how to expand the line, that is wasted on LOTR is a dollar, an hour, a moment that could have been going into producing, promoting, and enhancing Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 instead and making them stronger games and brands.

You know, it's a shame, too, because there's actually some cool stuff they could do with LotR. They could do a whole set of Black Numenorians, they could do the fall of Gondolin, there's all sorts of "historical" stuff that's far more interesting than the Trilogy stuff that they're doing, but I guess that's another issue.

Well, yes and no. I agree that a minor update is nice, but the schedule there shows 3 releases for 2007, and three for 2008. I took that to mean that it would be a full re-release of Space Marines, filling one their four month long hooplah cycles.

Also, if it is just an incremental patch, why is it the last thing scheduled for 2008? If they know there're problems with Space Marines (and honestly, I don't think there are, they don't win every tournament), then why have they slated "two years from now" as the time to fix it? Fix it now.

I should be fair and note that they're slating Orks ahead of this Marines Redux... Orks in 2008 would be unforgivable, but Orks in 2008 AFTER Marines Redux would be criminal.

I guess the good news is that they won't ever do a Blood Angels Codex, thus meaning that my totally broken Death Company can continue to assure me a victory any time I want one.



Well, they did Star Wars d20, so it should be about the same job as DnD. That said, I guess I agree, I was totally impressed with DnD 3.0/3.5, it felt like a classy reinvention with all the old standys I had fond memories of. Star Wars worked fine, but I guess it was missing something. Perhaps d20 just does better with a Fantasy setting than Sci-Fi.

In any case, there's two key elements at work with Hasbro and DnD. DnD was a relentlessly and pointlessly arcane system of rules hacks and confusions. Hasbro/WotC came along and really reduced it to the core concepts, added more sophistication to it, but made it simpler. They looked at the system with an eye for engineering, for proper system design. I think 40K is very ripe for that sort of change. On top of that, Hasbro turns out books and supplements like it's nothing. GW can't manage to produce a core rulebook concerning a core army in its system. Hasbro is putting out DnD books about how to run adventures in places that are cold. How to run adventures in places that are hot. Every obscure little detail you can imagine, and all done up with more pages, more art, and higher production values than any GW product. Some complain about that, but I'd rather be drowned in options than parched in the desert of GW's production schedule.

If I have to read one more article by Jervis Johnson about how hard they work and how fabulous their products are, I'm going to relinquish control to the Bloodthirster within, and let him have his way with their entire staff... Look, guys, you're from England... Nobody in western Europe even works a 40 hour week, much less works hard, so stop blowing smoke up my "arse."

It also shouldn't be so damn hard to do a Codex. I don't know what their staff size is, but I think it's reasonable for a team of, say, 6 people, to produce a GW style Codex in 6 months. It's not like they rigorously check it for loopholes, errors and wording problems. So, get a production staff of 36 people, and you should be able to put a Codex out every month. I get the impression right now, that they've got at least 36 people devoted, full time, to just being impressed with how dashing and dedicated they all are.



I think the wording, while imperfect, is as good as anything they've done. I also think that this Codex will only entrench them further in their irritating practices. I think they intend for each Codex release to be a big event, and to drive sales for that army. Like a dummy, I started an Eldar list when they put the Codex out, too.

If you follow the PP model, you release books that go across the armies and offer up some parallel options for each army. While this is nice for the players, it doesn't get everyone psyched about Khador, for example.



I'm not sure... I think the problem with making that call is that everyone here is a 40K/Fantasy player. I know I had some friends who gave painting a try due to their LotR fanboism. They didn't stick with it, but if they were going to buy GW products, it was going to be LotR. It might be that LotR works, but just not for the same segment as Fantasy/40K. For example, I bet a lot of LotR figs sell to people playing DnD, and who want to be Legolas...

This may require adding to my sig line...

No, but it does seem to put everyone in a group on the same page about what game to play.