Beginning of the End for Battlewagon bits?

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**Geddonight**

Posted By John on 03/26/2007 7:02 AM

Looks like GW has done it again.

Sounds like BwB will no longer be able to do online bits sales. Must be mail order or over the phone. Additionally, they have to open a brick and mortar store. Check out the news page at bwbits.com.

Curse you, GW. You take a good idea that works, is easy to use, and make it harder and more difficult.

Sounds like the shopping cart function for GW stuff will go away, do you think that also means they won't be able to post pictures online so we can readily identify what to place in our email/phone/fax/mail orders? I speculate that's what the downloadable catalog will be about.

I agree with the sentiment... the extra hassle will slow things down and create less spur of the moment bits purchasing. I'll still be a fervent user of BWB no matter how much hassle...

I don't know if GW "forced" a BnM location or if BWB already had that in mind... while it's in the same news brief, "Opening shortly" says to me that they've been planning this for a while and are announcing it as part of the advancement of their company (you don't just up and decide to get a physical location in a week... it requires a lot of start up capital).

Grr

**Polonius**

Kudos to BWB for working this out with GW. I've enjoyed their service, and I think they encourage the best parts of the hobby. I wish them all the best in their new endeavor, and I look forward to the bitz catalog. (bitz catalog + free printing = a partner for my GW catalog)

**pnweerar**

It's bloody bollocks is what it is.

**Breotan**

Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.

If I got a business licence and put in orders through a distributer like Alliance, could GW do anything to me for breaking down those orders and parting them out online?

**insaniak**

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.

Because GW US doesn't allow online sales through a shopping cart, in the belief that this somehow encourages people to buy from B&M stores instead.

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
If I got a business licence and put in orders through a distributer like Alliance, could GW do anything to me for breaking down those orders and parting them out online?

Not directly. I would suspect that they could request for Alliance (or whoever) to stop distributing to you, though. That's assuming that Alliance don't already have the same rules in place as GW US for their trade accounts...

**nyarlathotep667**

Posted By insaniak on 03/26/2007 1:54 PM

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.
Because GW US doesn't allow online sales through a shopping cart, in the belief that this somehow encourages people to buy from B&M stores instead.

That is just the "justification" they give, it in actuality has nothing to do with that, but rather their blatant desire limit "competition" and funnel online sales to their own webstore (where they get full mark ups!). All I know is that every other company out there (including other vertically integrated game companies) wants to make it as easy as possible for people to buy their products at a reasonable price, even if it means more has to be sold at a lower margin. The result is, ever since their internet sales ban, GW's units sold have plummeted, and profits right along with them. Worse is when one looks at their financials and sees they have been cutting fat left and right across the globe and they *still* posted a profit warning a couple months ago.

I really wonder if GW intentionally is running themselves into the ground. Incompetence can explain things only for so long...

**FlatlanderBoss2.0**

They actually might be trying to do just that sirs.

If they perform badly, they can file for the UK's version of "involvency" or "bankruptcy" with no intentions of it being allowed, finalized or pushed through...but, the mere act of having the "public company" (held mostly by one man's Trust Attorney) file will allow then to void their incredibly horrible long term contract the the Tolkien Peeps with no penalties for failure to perform.

Once that contract is scrapped, and the main owner has acquired even more % of shares during the "downturn" through his shell trusts, he'll put the pedal to the metal and find something else to screw up

Or they're monumentally arrogant bastards with no clue as to how to deal with intelligent customers like us.

**Frazzled**

It doesn't void the contract. If they lose the contract they lose LOTR as well.

**FlatlanderBoss2.0**

You think they don't care or know that?

**mikhaila**

The reason for BWB to open a B and M store is so that they can be in line with GW's rules for direct accounts. A direct account with GW gets you a 45% discount, and account with alliance or another distributor is 30% to 35% discount. Some distributors might sell to someone without a B and M location. GW won't and I don't believe Alliance will either. BWB had a direct account with GW, but was shut down when it was found that the information on their account application didn't quite mirror reality. Since then, they got their GW boxes through other retailers. Getting along with GW means they can regain direct account status, and get shipped product directly to them, not having to smuggle it in, or take a 10% hit in discount.

GW is simply making them comply with the rules that everyone else has to play by. They obviously felt it was time to do that, and be able to grow their business.

**carmachu**

Wow the solution sucks ass. Thanks for nothing GW. Mking it HARDER for the consumer to get what it wants is completely unhelpful.

Typical GW. No wonder their sales are slumping.

**Polonius**

Not be patronizing, but I think that as gamers, we should be happy that the settlement was as agreeable as it was. From everything I've seen, GW legal plays hardball, and they play for keeps. I'm guessing the negotiations went something like this:

GW: We will cancel your contract to sell our stuff, make sure no distributor will sell to you, press criminal charges for mail fraud (over the misleading info in their contract to be a retailer), and drown you in civil litigation until you simply have no money left.

BWB: Well, we'll immediatly declare bankrupcy, dissolve the corporation (I hope to god these guys weren't a partnership or sole proprietorship), and tell everybody in the hobby why you drove us out of business, so you'll get no money, and lose a lot of goodwill with your fan base.

GW: all right, let's deal!

To use a simpler analogy, in the legal world, GW plays Iron Warriors, and BWB were footslogging orks. And when Orks gain a draw against Iron Warriors, you call it a win and celebrate.

Sure, it stinks. But the sheer volume of how much worse it could have been is staggering.

**General Hobbs**

Posted By Polonius on 03/26/2007 4:20 PM
Not be patronizing, but I think that as gamers, we should be happy that the settlement was as agreeable as it was. From everything I've seen, GW legal plays hardball, and they play for keeps. I'm guessing the negotiations went something like this:

GW: We will cancel your contract to sell our stuff, make sure no distributor will sell to you, press criminal charges for mail fraud (over the misleading info in their contract to be a retailer), and drown you in civil litigation until you simply have no money left.

BWB: Well, we'll immediatly declare bankrupcy, dissolve the corporation (I hope to god these guys weren't a partnership or sole proprietorship), and tell everybody in the hobby why you drove us out of business, so you'll get no money, and lose a lot of goodwill with your fan base.

GW: all right, let's deal!

To use a simpler analogy, in the legal world, GW plays Iron Warriors, and BWB were footslogging orks. And when Orks gain a draw against Iron Warriors, you call it a win and celebrate.

Sure, it stinks. But the sheer volume of how much worse it could have been is staggering.

You have not been reading the posts. BWBits had NO contract with GW. They were getting their bitz from other stores.

Its wrong to make someone follow the same rules as everyone else? Enron was run by crooks who stole from people, the same as a man who walks into a convenience store with a gun. Do you think the company execs at Enron should be allowed a pass?

Better yet...should illegal immigrants be granted citizenship despite committing a felony coming to America? Or should they follow the same rules as people who legally come here? What's right in that case? Are we a people who follow laws, or do we follow the rules of men, in that justice is placed on the scales of whomeever is in power and who deems what is right or wrong based on what benefits them.

In this instance, GW had all the power. BW Bitz had none. The deal made totally benefits BW Bitz and us.

I found out today that its a fallacy that you can't put pics of GW product online. You can...as long as you are a legitimate store and not an online order business. So that throws out the arguement that GW is stupid for passing up on free advertising.

**Polonius**

Can you clarify the last post? I'm not sure what you mean, or if there was a point made or what. I'm not trying to be mean (i'll leave that to other posters, no doubt), but I unfortunatly can't parse anything out of that.

**General Hobbs**

BW Bits buy from other store. Sell Bitz.

It OK for BW Bitz to break rules?

Good lord....this has all the makings of a Geico commerical.

**Rygoth**

Hibz, don't you think you're being a little ignorant? Enron screwed the people, huh, kinda like GW. BW on the other hand helps the people and yet you support slapping them down. As long as we're bringing up way OTT examples to use, why not pose BW Bitz as the American Revolutionaries fighting against the unjust rules of the Brit oppressors for Pete's sake. It's sad that I can say the last time I heard drivel as inane as yours was reading Torreadors comments in the DA thread. Can both of you please take your verbal diarhea over to Warseer where you can fit in with the other GW fanbois?

**BF44042**

I maintain that GW's poor performance is exascerbated by their 'we must own every single GW store 100%' policy that eats into their profit margins every single quarter in both running costs and start up capital. Forcing BWB to kill their cart based service (which is pretty essential when ordering LOTS of little tiny bits unlike full boxes or blisters) for bits is simply counterproductive and goes further than forcing them to be inline with everyone else. It makes them less efficient, much more error prone and thus affects their ability to operate as a business providing a much needed service for the hobby as it will take more man hours to take and fill orders, the extra overhead with producing print catalogs that I'm sure will be necessary for mail ordering and the hassle involved will kill some spur of the moment bits sales.

**Moopy**

Posted By mikhaila on 03/26/2007 2:57 PM
Some distributors might sell to someone without a B and M location. GW won't and I don't believe Alliance will either.

Alliance will if you fallow all your local zoning laws.

**Pariah Press**

Posted By FlatlanderBoss2.0 on 03/26/2007 2:39 PM
They actually might be trying to do just that sirs.

If they perform badly, they can file for the UK's version of "involvency" or "bankruptcy" with no intentions of it being allowed, finalized or pushed through...but, the mere act of having the "public company" (held mostly by one man's Trust Attorney) file will allow then to void their incredibly horrible long term contract the the Tolkien Peeps with no penalties for failure to perform.

Err... didn't they just renew that contract a couple months ago?

**syr8766**

Mr. General Hobbs: I'll be happy to agree with your comparison, as soon as BWB turns the lights out on California because they CAN.

Let's all come back to earth, folks. It's a store that sells parts of plastic dollies, being yelled at for being naughty by a company that manufactures said plastic dollies. Jeez, are the Barbie forums this full of 'tude?

**malfred**

http://www.barbiecollector.com/

You can't view their forums without registering. So I think it's
best that we get an already registered user to scout it out for us.

Hellfury! Where are you?!?

**budro**

I know what the annoucement did for me - it made me order a bitz order today using the handy dandy shopping cart rather then waiting a couple weeks for payday like I was going to...

Maybe it's all just a big conspiriacy to get people to rush order their bitz online to increase BwBitz short term revenue to boost their bottom line so that they can get a bigger loan from the bank to open their B&M store. It's a conspiracy I tell you!! BwBitz and GW are in cahoots with each other. If we dig deep enough I bet you'll find some alien tech from Roswell is supplying the model manufacturing process. they are probably behind JFK's killing too.

Seriously, while it stinks that GW is making them remove the online shopping cart function, I'm sure that I'll still continue to order from them. It's just a bigger pain in the ass.

**Polonius**

Hey, the internet brings out the vitriol in even the mildest user. I know a Barbie collector, and she has a mean streak wider than the empty space in Jervis's head. I'm guessing their forum has vicious flame wars just like ours, only with slightly more women and slightly fewer closeted deviants.

**Lorek**

Wow, that was spoken like a true Skipper fan.

~ducks and runs for cover~

**Furious**

Are the B & M stores in North America in that much jepordy that GW has to have the "no internet sales" policy in place?

Any store owners want to share their opinions on that?

**Dice Monkey**

Posted By Polonius on 03/26/2007 7:43 PM
Can you clarify the last post?

He means "Be Kind Rewind!"

**mikhaila**

I'll give short answers, since I'm lacking coffee in my system, and had to fill out order forms for far too much of the night. An analysis of the state of the gaming industry would take pages.

Yes, many Brick and Mortar shops are in trouble, (comic, hobby, game, etc.). There have been hundreds closing up shop each year, and the trend continues. The main thing hurting game shops is the portion of their business that goes to internet discounters. Rising costs of doing business (rent, new taxes, insurance, shipping), competition with Big Box stores like Walmart, Borders, who constantly discount, and a changing marketplace (electronic games), also are each having an effect on business. Older owners retiring and closing up, is also a problem. Shops evolve over the years, many getting larger, deeper inventories, and taking on a personality and distinct feel.

Newer shops are opening, but they don't replace the older shops in either quality or quantity. Think of it like your gaming club. 5 guys get too busy to come play. Each owns 4 armies, knows the rules, and has played for years. They also own half the club scenery. Two new 16 year olds start showing up with half painted armies. Not a good trade, but it's what you have.

No, GW's dealing with BWB, or with all internet sellers, by itself, won't keep any store from going out of business. Too small of an effect, and too hard to even measure if it does something. The total effect of what GW does is probably helping retailers, and the total of what all game distributors and manafacturers could do would certainly help.

I say 'could', because many don't do anything. Wotc in particular has cut discounts to the direct market, limited product to stores while selling millions of packs off their own website, and dumped tons of product to interenet only shops that sell at 3% above wholsale.

Mike at Showcase

two shops in Philadelphia,

**ender502**

Posted By mikhaila on 03/27/2007 7:11 AM

inventories, and taking on a personality and distinct feel.

The total effect of what GW does is probably helping retailers, and the total of what all game distributors and manafacturers could do would certainly help.

I think what would help retailers best is to make a quality product with good rules at an affordable price. But I am a bit naive.....

ender502

**redstripe**

Posted By insaniak on 03/26/2007 1:54 PM

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
Okay, I'm very confused. Why can't BWBits keep the Bits online? I mean, other than GW is pressuring them.
Because GW US doesn't allow online sales through a shopping cart, in the belief that this somehow encourages people to buy from B&M stores instead.

Posted By Breotan on 03/26/2007 1:27 PM
If I got a business licence and put in orders through a distributer like Alliance, could GW do anything to me for breaking down those orders and parting them out online?
Not directly. I would suspect that they could request for Alliance (or whoever) to stop distributing to you, though. That's assuming that Alliance don't already have the same rules in place as GW US for their trade accounts...

1) GW's interest in killing BwB's online sales has nothing do with any altruistic attempt to encourage B&M sales. Their entire motivation is to encourage use of their own website. As has been said before, GW makes more money when it sells from its own website than from a retailer's website.

2) GW isn't going to screw around with asking Alliance pwetty pweese quit selling stock to BwB. They hoit my feewings. They're going to sue BwB for using its IP on their website. Using pictures of GW's product to make money can be interpretted as IP infringement. They've already proven that they can successfully litigate under this claim.

The logic is simple. BwB directly reduces sales from GW's own website by utilizing GW's own product images on BwB's website.

BwB's only choice to avoid crippling litigation is to remove the images from its website.

To answer Breotan's question: Yes. And directly. If you use pictures of GW product on your website to sell that product, GW will first threaten to sue you and if that doesn't work, they will sue you. What do you think the Vice President came down there to do? Help the man pick out paint swatches for his new store?

**Maxstreel**

I'm no economics major but am a businessman. I'm also gamer who enjoys the models, fluff, and rules. That GW prices are high, well, that's the price of wanting to play with toy soldiers. However, as a family man with responsibilities, I work hard for my money. If I can get the same product for less from someplace other than a GW storefront or FLGS, I will. Do I hate GW or my FLGS? Of course not! This is where the economics comes in. If I can get a widget from Wal-mart for a dollar but Target has the same widget for two dollars, where do you think I'm going? That people will pay more for the same product is fine, that's what retailers at different stores count on when they price their products at a level they feel a customer will buy. That's a free market and it's great. Why do you think cars are never really "sticker price" and you've always got to wheel and deal?

I visit my local GW and FLGS at times and will buy based on how I'm treated. Mind you, I'm the one 30+ year old guy that actually walks in looking like I've just left a corporate management meeting. I'm not some teenage punk wearing a Misfits t-shirt with hair in his eyes and enough piercing to set off the airport metal detectors while carrying his skateboard. Even then, I get mumbling or super-pushy salespeople, lack of selection, and downright rudeness. I'm the one that walked in with money in my pocket! Sell me something that isn't a bad attitude.

So let's tally it up: GW and FLGS with rude salespeople and full price items while being harassed or online store with clean cart ordering system, no hassle, and a discount? Good service and good price are what sells me.

My one disclaimer is the social aspect of the game as some FLGS and most GW locations will allow you to play, which of course is the point of getting the game. I'm cool with that and will buy from them occasionally. But when I want my battleforce and it's $90 at the store or $72 online, you know where I'm going.

If GW's intent was to have me buy from a B&M store, it didn't work. If their intent was to force me to order from their online site or visit their Bunker here in Grapevine Mills TX, it didn't work.

BWBitz ease of service will be missed. I ordered heavily from them in the past and am currently making a final list of models I still need before the shopping cart goes away if it hasn't already.