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Honestly while I do agree with Therion and all, I really, really hoped the then-new vespids and sniper teams were game-busting units. :( Piranhas were cool.

I think Sniper Drones are going to be useful in 5th edition because of the markerlights.

being the OP on warseer, and being banned for what I posted there - due to the GW legal team threatening warseer- I think backs up what was written more than I ever could myself.

If 'GW' thought there was nothing wrong in the book, then they wouldnt have bothered getting involved at all.

For those 'warseers' asking why I was banned.

Apparently I violated IP - which as the 'red book' is an operational manual and GW are a plc(not to mention 90% of the book can be found online in various sources issued by GW itself) means that the book is BY LAW public domain.

Just like their sales figures - yet I see no-one getting banned over that...

Im in talks with Warseer - so Hopefully things will get sorted.

Due to it being my thrid strike (for breaking IP...which the law says i wasnt...)- im banned for life. Yet technically I didnt break a single of the warseer rules - its just GW bullying their bitch and I understand the deletion, but the banning is a little harsh.

anyway, thats where I stand at the moment.

Whoah, thanks for the heads-up. I knew the thread was taken down, but not the banning.

Sorry to hear the ban, EE. Still sadder, when one thinks about the reasons.

If I'm not out of place, where could I take a look at said document? I'm quite curious as I missed the threads at Warseer.

And thanks for clearing it up, I hope you sort it out with the Inquisition. If you're willing to go back to Warseer, that is.

I dont blame warseer. If this gets resolved Ill go back and not be resentful.

I like the forum there and I generally like the people. Ive had many a good discussion there.

I just wish they hadnt been so heavy handed - the IP infringment was(even admitted by them) questionable.

I just have the feeling, now theyve done it - they dont want to go back on their initial decision.

If it was my first or second strike, it wouldnt be so bad - but to be so heavy handed on my third and ban me for life - well if I knew I was going out that way Id have at least wanted to get some insults and swearwords in there to make it worthwhile

Alas I was polite the whole thread, and there were some great discussions going on too.

Meh, what can you do.

Ive pleaded my case best I can. Right now my ban will 'Never' be lifted.

I am told they are reviewing this and it may get changed.

On that subject, theyve just put in the points system - alot better, just a pity it wasnt that way before me life ban

I still have the quotes on the Armies of Arcana forums and Bugmans Brewery forums- both know where they stand when it comes to IP (ie ops manuals are NOT IP) so the discussions are still there in the open and the foums are still up.

GW may be the biggest miniature manufacturer on the planet, but that doesnt give them the right to dictate their own laws.

scuddman wrote:That's a terrible example. You mean the fusion gun that everyone online in tactics guides say don't take? Or the fact that the plastic models are cheaper per model than the metal ones? Or that the metal ones are still perfectly legal and already have the best configuration? Or that you could take a fusion gun off of some crisis suit bitz and convert your own?

All of which are utterly irrelevent.

It doesn't matter that the fusion gun shouldn't be taken - it's a new shiny piece of kit only available on a new model, so anyone who wants to buy it (and most people aren't into the balls-to-the-wall competative gameplay that us lunatics are into, so they will) will have to get the new model to get that option. It doesn't matter that they're 'cheaper'. The fact is that new options are only available on the new model, so to get those new options most people will buy the new model kit. It doesn't matter that the old ones are perfectly legal and already have the best options, because the new options are only available on the new kit. It doesn't matter that you can convert the old models - the fact that you have to convert them is proof enough.

It has new options, therefore to get more sales, they remake the kit completely rather than just make a new sculpt to go with the old ones.

Let me break it down for you. They want to sell new models. They have a popular unit (like Stealth Suits). They know that simply nerfing them to sell something else will cause a revolt, so they decide to give the favoured unit even more options than before. However, that won't sell any more of the popular unit, as people already own them. So what do they do? They make a completely new kit that has all the new options, so that people who want the new options (and people will, because, as I said, most people, aside from being sheep, don't give two $#!ts about competative play) will have to go out and get the new kit.

Sure, it's not an option any of us would take, but we don't represent the majority of gamers. We represent a sub-set of gamers.

scuddman wrote:A better example would have been terminators that require the new base size.

They don't 'require' a new base size.

scuddman wrote:Or the old lead wraithlord with the now illegal and defunct d-cannon.

But the Wraithlord itself is still legal.

scuddman wrote:Or guardians with lasguns.

Ah! Now that's a good example, but it's the opposite to what I'm talking about. Here the process is:

1. Old model everyone already has.
2. Need to sell new models.
3. Can't just re-make it.
4. Remove option for Lasguns, making old units illegal.
5. Instant sales!

It's just the same as the Stealth Suits, but in reverse. Rather than adding options that you can only get on the new sprues, they're taking an option away, making old models illegal.

scuddman wrote:Come on now, you can do better than that!

I could say the same about you.


I don't think that there is some giant GW conspiracy with evil bean-counters locked away in a room counting money and swiming in great money vaults ala Scrooge McDuck. What I do think is that GW is a model company first, and a rules company last, but they'll use the rules to drive the sales of their models - so stuff that sold well in the past doesn't get a new model, whereas stuff no one has because it sucked often gets a new model and better rules. It doesn't always hold true (Tank Bustaz are horrid, and Possessed are a complete joke), but most people don't think like we do and see buy it based on the 'Oooh! Shiny' principle.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote: buy it based on the 'Oooh! Shiny' principle.

That's my bad. Guilty as charged.

scuddman wrote:Everyone I talk to that played with the old Orcs thinks the new codex is less competitive than the old one. Losing choppa and getting restrictions on heavy weapons is hardly a buff to orcs. So is losing looted vehicles. Neither are all the armies that are no longer legal because they got the Craftworld treatment.

*sigh*

But all they're doing is looking at what they lost. They're failing to look at what they've gained, and that the army is different to the way it was before. Choppas are gone. Restrictions on heavy weapons really sucks. Looted vehicles becoming the useless 'looted wagon' is a real bummer for all the players out their with looted Basilisks and Demolishers. But we know now about all the units that got some major improvements. We've seen the threads and threads about Shootas and Lootas. They've gained enormous amount whilst losing a number of previously good things.

In fact... come to think of it... that proves my point!

They've lost the old stuff, and gained new stuff, and a lot of the new stuff has new models, and a lot of the old stuff isn't getting a new model. This isn't a conspiracy theory, this is business. I hate it, and I wish that every unit was equally balanced with one another, but GW wants to sell you models, not rules, so that is not their aim. They're not tricking us. They're not lying to us (except in their tacticas where they constantly blubber about everything being useful, like Dev Squads with 4 different heavy weapons). They're just conducting business in the way that they think will generate the best sales:

1. Make new models.
2. Give (most) new models better rules.
3. Ignore the rules for models that have been out for a while -OR- make them better and release a new kit so people have to buy that one.

Easy. Done. No conspiracy.

BYE

Yep, HB. That's pretty much what I, Therion, and others in our camp are saying. It's the other guys who call it a conspiracy, but I guess for me it's warranted since I'm the one that posted this thread and likened it to a cult.

Woah, this is a real heads up for those of us who considered them 'enlightened supreme beings who can masterfully roll out rules/books/figs/paints/updates/whatnot'

If it was a company selling something else, let's say computers for example...
Stats as follows...

Dual core .800Mhz Cpu(as fast as a P4 1.6 GHz, but re-packaged in a special way...)
12MB SD Ram(incompatible-also 'counts as' instant memory)
3 1/4" floppy drive("hmm-can't seem to write anything to this thing!!??")
1MB HDD-long term 'storage facility'. No typo there.
NO WARRANTY AFTER PURCHASE
Just a rant. I got to read the whole thing on Warseer. Scary that GW has the sort of clout that kind of response recieved, IMO.

Well, stay on Dakka, and rock and roll.

akira5665 wrote:
Dual core .800Mhz Cpu(as fast as a P4 1.6 GHz, but re-packaged in a special way...)
12MB SD Ram(incompatible-also 'counts as' instant memory)
3 1/4" floppy drive("hmm-can't seem to write anything to this thing!!??")
1MB HDD-long term 'storage facility'. No typo there.
NO WARRANTY AFTER PURCHASE
Just a rant. I got to read the whole thing on Warseer. Scary that GW has the sort of clout that kind of response recieved, IMO.

You should do this sort of thing for the US Presidential elections...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

*sigh*

But all they're doing is looking at what they lost. They're failing to look at what they've gained, and that the army is different to the way it was before. Choppas are gone. Restrictions on heavy weapons really sucks. Looted vehicles becoming the useless 'looted wagon' is a real bummer for all the players out their with looted Basilisks and Demolishers. But we know now about all the units that got some major improvements. We've seen the threads and threads about Shootas and Lootas. They've gained enormous amount whilst losing a number of previously good things.

In fact... come to think of it... that proves my point!

They've lost the old stuff, and gained new stuff, and a lot of the new stuff has new models, and a lot of the old stuff isn't getting a new model. This isn't a conspiracy theory, this is business. I hate it, and I wish that every unit was equally balanced with one another, but GW wants to sell you models, not rules, so that is not their aim. They're not tricking us. They're not lying to us (except in their tacticas where they constantly blubber about everything being useful, like Dev Squads with 4 different heavy weapons). They're just conducting business in the way that they think will generate the best sales:

1. Make new models.
2. Give (most) new models better rules.
3. Ignore the rules for models that have been out for a while -OR- make them better and release a new kit so people have to buy that one.

Easy. Done. No conspiracy.

BYE

That sums up GW nicely. The only thing I would (slightly)disagree with is the trickery and the lying.

They don't necessarily do it, but they put one hell of a spin on the truth sometimes, that and they seem to be under a guise of ignorance that they can do no wrong, that is until they have to replace it with some "new" and "exciting".

I mean look at their new bitz program, they say that its "better, new and exciting" (like everything else they do) but in reality its a gouge-o-thon. Their like a used car salesmen, he'll have a huge grin on his face while he is trying to pawn off a crap heap to you. Yeah that is business but there is a huge difference when you have respect for your customers, although I dont blame GW, they have been treating us like crap for decades and we keep buying so they aren't going to change anytime soon.

Ravenous D wrote:
That sums up GW nicely. The only thing I would (slightly)disagree with is the trickery and the lying.

They don't necessarily do it, but they put one hell of a spin on the truth sometimes, that and they seem to be under a guise of ignorance that they can do no wrong, that is until they have to replace it with some "new" and "exciting".

I mean look at their new bitz program, they say that its "better, new and exciting" (like everything else they do) but in reality its a gouge-o-thon. Their like a used car salesmen, he'll have a huge grin on his face while he is trying to pawn off a crap heap to you. Yeah that is business but there is a huge difference when you have respect for your customers, although I dont blame GW, they have been treating us like crap for decades and we keep buying so they aren't going to change anytime soon.

C'mon man, listen to what you are saying! They are a business. Every business has to try new things and re-organize and sometimes that means changing or losing product or procedures. But I mean, really, are they supposed to come out and say, "HEY, OUR NEW BITZ PROGRAM SUCKS, SO BUY AWAY!" No, they are trying to work with what they got. I don't think you'll ever find an ad or promotion for something where the company says, "Our new product sucks balls and we know it, and we are ashamed yet giddy at the same time because we are trying to make you buy it, so give us your money!"

Thats ludicrous man. There is no conspiracy or lie, its just business.

Sometimes businesses actually mean it when they say "new and improved" and customers agree.

EE ... it's good to see you've found your way here. You and Nurglitch should make an avatar or cool sigs for yourselves like something to the effect:

Banned from Warseer but not banned from your mom!

I hope they let you back, but warseer has become more and more like GW old community forums ... heavy handed, fearful, and seemingly arbitrary.

Ravenous D wrote:

I mean look at their new bitz program, they say that its "better, new and exciting" (like everything else they do) but in reality its a gouge-o-thon.

Well it is new.. for everyone involved.

it is exciting as in it is creating alot of topic discussion and debate. Although who is really excited about it remains to be seen.

and better. From their vantage point it is better. They don't need 10,000 little bits in bins that keep getting lost and mixed up and trying to count those damned things for inventory is maddening. so for them it is better.. so, the better, new and exciting is a true statement for them. You can't argue that.. however, you can argue the validity of how much it impacts you ..

ExquisiteEvil wrote:Due to it being my thrid strike (for breaking IP...which the law says i wasnt...)- im banned for life. Yet technically I didnt break a single of the warseer rules

Welcome to Dakka, I sure hope you find that this place treats you better.

scuddman wrote:A better example would have been terminators that require the new base size.

From a RAW standpoint, the rule is that you use the base that was supplied with the model. Not that you use the base that comes with the replacement model. Nor that you are required to change bases.

OTOH, if you can get GW to agree to supply the "correct" bases for all of your Terminators, let me know. I've got a bunch of Termies which were "mispacked" with the "wrong" bases, too.

Or the old lead wraithlord with the now illegal and defunct d-cannon.

That is an alternate-pattern Starcannon, because it cannot be a D-Cannon (which is a much larger gun, and not a legal option for a Wraithlord).

Or guardians with lasguns.

Those are alternate-pattern Shuriken Catapults, just like the OOP crossbow-styled ones. As Guardians are only armed with Shuricats or SP&CCW, those must be Shuricats. Also, they're *LasBLASTERS*.

In other words, everything violated by new rules turns into
counts-as.

GW should just put that into their rulebook.

Or the old lead wraithlord with the now illegal and defunct d-cannon.

That is an alternate-pattern Starcannon, because it cannot be a D-Cannon (which is a much larger gun, and not a legal option for a Wraithlord).

Or guardians with lasguns.

Those are alternate-pattern Shuriken Catapults, just like the OOP crossbow-styled ones. As Guardians are only armed with Shuricats or SP&CCW, those must be Shuricats. Also, they're *LasBLASTERS*.

Way to throw the N-word around, railguns!

Railguns wrote:You're kidding right?

Good Lord someone tell me he's kidding

if I am going to spend a great deal of effort and creative energy,(not to mention money ) on my models only to have to worry about everything I have crafted made useless, pitiful, or outright illegal in 3 years it really kills my enthusiasm for the hobby.

Dude, I'm serious as a heart attack. I have 4 Wraithlords with c/a Starcannons supported by a dozen Guardians with c/a Shuricats.

One thing you've got to keep in mind: everything that is made of suck is eventually transformed into pure win, and everything that is made of win will be remade as suck. You need to take a longer view of the game.

They do rather look like star cannons to me...

Not to derail the thread or anything, but those weapons look like d-cannons to me, right down to the ovoid, horizontally grooved barrels. Heck, theres even a diagram from the old 3rd edition codex (well before this Jervis's son business) that shows it, compared to other weapons. Now I know about the cross-style shuricats, but before that, like Rogue Trader Era, they had las-guns.
Not that I'm questioning your knowledge, but I swear thats how I've always seen it.

Railguns. He's talking counts-as. (c-a)

*sigh*

It's like it's third edition all over again.

Sorry to hear that your only love for your miniatures is them being legal or not.
If I can't use my 2nd edition Space Marine Captain (because I haven't heard of whole squads being thrown out the window) because he has a plasma gun, I either lovingly keep him, or I just tear him apart and strip away the paint.

If you're complaining from a gaming perspective, I'd say you're very much wrong. It's the first time I've heard of someone afraid to collect an army because the builds might be less useful in three-year's time. Then again, I play with the units I like, not those about whom I spent 2 hours looking at calculations in an obscure corner of a forum so I know they'll compensate for my own lack of talent.

Railguns wrote:Not to derail the thread or anything, but those weapons look like d-cannons to me, right down to the ovoid, horizontally grooved barrels. Heck, theres even a diagram from the old 3rd edition codex (well before this Jervis's son business) that shows it, compared to other weapons.

Not that I'm questioning your knowledge, but I swear thats how I've always seen it.

Except they *can't* be D-Cannons, because Wraithlords *can't* have D-Cannons, so they must be something else.

And the current D-Cannon bit is *much* larger, roughly twice the size in every dimension. It's *huge*. And it's only legally available on the huge Heavy AGP.

But if you compare it to the 2E Starcannon bit, it's very close in size and shape - the only significant difference is that the 2E D-Cannon barrel is round, whereas the 2E Plasma Cannon ("Starcannon") barrel is more oval-shaped.

So, by process of elimination, it *must* be a Starcannon.


As others have noted, it's better to simply make your army and play it. If you're constantly worried about how efficient everything is, and letting that dictate your army / option decisions, then you ought to focus on building your army fast - as soon as the Codex comes out, with the expectation of selling it as soon as the next edition / Codex comes out.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

...

One thing you've got to keep in mind: everything that is made of suck is eventually transformed into pure win, and everything that is made of win will be remade as suck. You need to take a longer view of the game.

That sounds like a verse from the Bible.

And thus said the Grand Gamemaster of the Sky: So shall you, Nerdicus, write it, so shall it be done.