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Railguns wrote:And even if the power-armor boost was required to heft a bolter, have you even tried fire a weapon 3 feet long, whose grips are on opposite ends of the weapon? It makes even less sense than 40k normally does.

Yes, actually. It is a 12 guage shotgun with pistol grip. Hurts the wrist a good bit when fired from the hip, but when braced against the shoulder it isn't bad. A standard bolt round is described as being ~.75 caliber, which is conveniently the same size as a 12 guage shotgun slug. We were actually knocking around the idea of converting a semi-auto AK made 12 guage shotgun into a functional bolter, before my buddy who works in a machine shop got a job with less spare time.

Now, don't get me wrong, firing the thing on semi auto from the hip would wreck my wrist, even with the extra weight from the weapon dampening recoil. I have smallish to average wrists though. My brother in law who is built like a truck handles that sort of thing easily.

Also, thinking of penetrating SM armor, I agree that an AK or M16 firing jacketed bullets would be AP6 at best, and AP- more likely. The SAW or .50 cals though, those would rank in at AP5 at worst, and some of the heavier autocannons we mount on things would be AP3. The heavy stubbers would be a decent analogue. The thing to bear in mind though is that while marines can absorb a lot of fire, their armor is not all hard bits. Sooner or later they roll 1's or 2's, so given enough fire volume, marines would drop.

Of course the battle barge still makes it irrelevant.

One thing I haven't seen people mention much is what might happen when "aliens", even 7-8' humanoid aliens, show up. I think there would be two significant movements, one to embrace them and one to resist them, no matter what. It would tie into religion, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see religions evenly split about whether or not they are messengers of gods.

It would be interesting, I would give you that

Also, as a side note, it was mentioned that the world's agri-capacity is maxed out. That is very far from the truth, considering how much fallow land there is everywhere. There is also the fact that modern, cutting edge methods are not used in most small farms due to lack of return on investment in huge machinery, so that cuts down efficiency.

I agree with you, but I was pointing out that if a bolter, which has no buttstock and a foregrip nearly flush with the end of the barrel, was 3 feet long overall it would be an ergonomical nightmare. Warhams figures are not to scale.

And to the people who insist that bolter shells are full size grenades, or rockets or whatnot this is a simple case of hyperbolic 12 year old syndrome. It is indeed a .75 calibur caseless round. Huge relative to normal assault rifle bullets, sure, but hardly a freaking rapid fire rpg. It may have even less recoil than expected, as the shell itself is a self propelled rocket, like the failed gyrojet pistol from a few decades ago.

Well yea, that's the trick. Bolters are very different between model lines. I was thinking of the old bolters I just cut up for some combi weapons in my Inquisitor's retinue, which all have the little folding stock. Most marines just shoot from the hip

For an idea of how hard a Marine actually is, and how difficult it would be to incapictate one, go look at Inquisitor.

And remember, all the time that these giants are shrugging off the best you got...your friends are dying horribly, messy, agonising deaths......Hold your nerve. I dare you.

Is this chapter movie marines or game marines?

Uggh... 1hadhq, what you just pulled is called the perceptions fallacy and it's irritating as hell.

"Hurr, it looks like a WWI tank, so obviously it performs like one!"

The Imperium uses technology so ridiculously beyond our comprehension it's not even funny. The Russ uses a combination of inertial compensation technology and high ground pressure to execute their insane turns.

As for the Russ' speed, what exactly would stop a machine looking like the Russ from going any faster than a modern vehicle? I wasn't aware that aerodynamics particularly matters in tank design, and even if it did, what's stopping the Russ from beating the Challenger with pure power? Especially considering the very high energy density of Imperial fuels, which achieve multi-gigajoule level 'cremation' events when fired from the Hellhound.

As for modern armour 'meltagunning' through plasteel, you are very, very mistaken. The side armour of the Russ can survive impacts from anti-tank weapons that heave the whole tank (all 62 tons) several meters sideways, and survive a low-range triple-digit gigajoule thermal weapons like the lascannon (for comparison, that's roughly two tons of TNT focused on an area as big around as a quarter); there are several other examples in the fluff of similar feats. The Russ is an STC design, heavily bastardized, yes, but the thing is still orders of magnitude better than anything we can construct, it's archaic form notwithstanding.

Finally, Human loaders are faster than modern autoloaders. But considering the above technology, in a tank reknown for simplicity and ease of construction, what makes you think that'll be the case here?

One of the Gaunt's Ghosts books...I think it was Honor Guard...has a series of awesome tank battles which described very well how fast-paced and high-tech fighting with Russes and their derivatives really is.

Of course in the Gaunts ghosts book, a kill team of IG with nothing but a demo charge, an autocannon, and some jungle natives with bows take out a squad of chaos marines. Kind of supports the argument about Earth dealing with marines rather handily...

Gearhead wrote:One of the Gaunt's Ghosts books...I think it was Honor Guard...has a series of awesome tank battles which described very well how fast-paced and high-tech fighting with Russes and their derivatives really is.

That proves we're talking about movie marines, not game marines.

open_sketchbook wrote:Uggh... 1hadhq, what you just pulled is called the perceptions fallacy and it's irritating as hell.

I am irritating?

"Hurr, it looks like a WWI tank, so obviously it performs like one!"

The Imperium uses technology so ridiculously beyond our comprehension it's not even funny. The Russ uses a combination of inertial compensation technology and high ground pressure to execute their insane turns.

terrain doesn't care about pressure and inertial compensation.Turns of 90° go at stable terrain with 20-30 km/h in reality.
Grip at the ground may be not so different in 40k. And we have the russes on earth in this thread! So our physics do count.

As for the Russ' speed, what exactly would stop a machine looking like the Russ from going any faster than a modern vehicle?

Movement 12" perhaps? A equal movement than cavalry Seems not so fast to me.

I wasn't aware that aerodynamics particularly matters in tank design, and even if it did, what's stopping the Russ from beating the Challenger with pure power? Especially considering the very high energy density of Imperial fuels, which achieve multi-gigajoule level 'cremation' events when fired from the Hellhound.

1) We discuss about leman russ,not hellhounds.
2) you mentioned aerodynamics.I would never bring aerodynamics and tracked vehicles together.But the design of this LR is proven to be bad.Worse in terrain and open tracks.Why do you think trackguards were added in C: IG? Because they never break?
3) it doesn't matter which modern tank you believe the russ may beat.Most actual tanks are more or less comparable.
from design,rhino variants and Land raiders,also baneblade variants are far closer to hightech than a crippled-stc Leman russ.
The russ has no machine spirit like a Land raider.The russ has not autotargeters like some baneblades.The russ has crew to field his
guns (all of them.)Why should anyone use more crew than needed? Fluff may be a little "artists freedom" in case of tech.
I would rely on IG codices and Imperial armour for datasheets and descriptions of a Leman russ.

As for modern armour 'meltagunning' through plasteel, you are very, very mistaken. The side armour of the Russ can survive impacts from anti-tank weapons that heave the whole tank (all 62 tons) several meters sideways, and survive a low-range triple-digit gigajoule thermal weapons like the lascannon (for comparison, that's roughly two tons of TNT focused on an area as big around as a quarter); there are several other examples in the fluff of similar feats.

So you speak of "movie"russes,like guardsmen killin everything with a half-empty Lasgun?
I think you just "forgot" any sequence in fluff not agreeing with you.

Finally, Human loaders are faster than modern autoloaders. But considering the above technology, in a tank reknown for simplicity and ease of construction, what makes you think that'll be the case here?

Maybe some weapons doesn't use loaders?(LasC/PlasC/MM/AC) But the battlecannon will not have a auto-fed option.
The gunner and loader are set in 40k for russes.

*looks at / into his L.Russes. Finds none of the features described by open scetchbook*

Open, where do you get this info from? Not knocking you I just think I may be missing some good guard books....

Earth is one giant technology farm. We have people who actually BUILD and INVENT new things. Our technology expands without recovering STCs. That asset, and that asset alone, would make earth's existing population important to the Imperium.

The Adeptus Mechanicus would want earth's entire technological and historical infrastructure in one piece. Once they could determine which assets were useful for technological development and which were not, they would divide Earth down into two groups: hivers and tech-builders. They would farm each for their strengths - new technology developers from the tech-builders and more industrial workers and soldiers from the hivers.

For our part as Earthlings, we wouldn't put up much of a fight. The Space Marines would just have to show up, take off their helmets, and warn us that a Waaagh / Hive Fleet was heading in our direction and we'd never get off-planet at our current level of technology in time to escape. They'd show a vid-clip or two, maybe show a trophy skull and that would be it. We'd be united with the Imperium for our survival against terrible Xenos forces.

The religious and social purges would only set in once the Adeptus Mechanicus managed to secure a process for harvesting our technology builders, since there are no psykers among the Earthlings and no consequence threat of Chaos infestation.

The Gaunt's Ghosts book Honour Guard has a very good, in-depth look at the Russ and it's capabilities, while much quantification is to be had from the Kill Team, Cain and Horus Heresy books.

Also, a must for any vs. debate is the order of canon. Games-Workshop's order of canon is as follows. (Take from an interview a few years back, I believe)
- In-Universe Documents (IE, The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer)
- Black Library Published Novels
- Other Black Library Products (Including the Warhammer 40,000 RPG)
- Forge World Books
- Fluff in GW Sourcebooks (With codex superceeding rulebook, rulebook superceeding other sources)
- Official Comics
- Game Art
- Game Mechanics

Within this is a second hierarchy whereby new fluff overrides older fluff, excepting where a series continues without retconning previous information, so, for example, all Gaunt's Ghosts books have canon status equal to the most recent.

In addition, the Vs. community has generally agreed that, in a case where two recent pieces of fluff, the one most in line with previously stated quantifications is accepted.

Nothing published before 1996 is considered canon.

mlund wrote:Earth is one giant technology farm. We have people who actually BUILD and INVENT new things. Our technology expands without recovering STCs. That asset, and that asset alone, would make earth's existing population important to the Imperium.

The issue of whether or now Imperial tech is better than 21st C Earth tech is a hard one.

One thing to keep in mind is the our tech is optimized for our own planet. Our tanks might be faster than the Imperiums, we have choppers that the IG has nothing like but even on this world they need extensive refits to use in different regions (deserts, arctic) and probably would not function off world. IG tech can be used on anything from Catachan to Valhalla to Cadia with minimal adaptation. Plus IG tech is deliberately held back to limit their ability to rebel. That's why fighters are reserved for the Imperial Navy.

Lasguns work anywhere and can be charged from any power source. M-16s and AK47s are about as good but jam in jungles and need supplies precision engineered ammo.

I think the flexibility of IG gear is their superiority , not necessarily the performance.

But the IG also has stuff that is a whole level beyond ours. For a long time its been established that autocannons are 20/21st C tank cannons. Battlecannons are a level beyond, using high-powered explosives beyond anything we have now. Lascannons, melta guns, and plasma are also well beyond anything we have.

The Adeptus Mechanicus would want earth's entire technological and historical infrastructure in one piece.

I disagree here. The AM are a religious order revering the lost past. Since our tech is home-grown they not only would not want it, they would despise it as heretical. Plus, as noted, our tech is optimal for our world, it needs materials common on Earth, conditions normal on Earth and our infrastructure to maintain.

For our part as Earthlings, we wouldn't put up much of a fight. The Space Marines would just have to show up, take off their helmets, and warn us that a Waaagh / Hive Fleet was heading in our direction and we'd never get off-planet at our current level of technology in time to escape. They'd show a vid-clip or two, maybe show a trophy skull and that would be it. We'd be united with the Imperium for our survival against terrible Xenos forces.

The religious and social purges would only set in once the Adeptus Mechanicus managed to secure a process for harvesting our technology builders, since there are no psykers among the Earthlings and no consequence threat of Chaos infestation.

Obviously the Imperium would have to conceal its true goals as long as possible but some Earth nations would not accept them at all, and more would join as their intentions become more clear. Besides this is a Space Marine chapter vs Earth, not how could the Imperium subvert Earth governments over several decades. This is 1000 angry bald men sent to bring Earth in line pronto.

When reading fluff books and material in codexes and so on, it is important to keep in mind that lots of it could be propaganda.

For example, the Tau codex talks about inviting newly discovered civilizations to join a consensual federation, and reluctantly fighting against those like the Orks who cannot cooperate. Whereas other fluff sources say the Tau simply obliterate all opposition. Which is true, or are there elements of truth in both sides?

Likewise the Imperial sources tell us that there are only about 1,000,000 SMs in the whole galaxy, but real life seems to indicate there are huge numbers more than that and they aren't the bionic supermen depicted in the standard Imperial texts.

Anyway, it comes back to what the Imperium wants to do with Earth. If they simply see it as a habitable planet ripe for settlement, the easiest thing to do would be to obliterate all the major cities with meteroids, wait a few years for the dust to settle, and plant a standard imperial colony.

Believe it or not, the 'colony drop' has been disproven as a tactic and is not performed by the Imperium. So no rocks. They don't need it anyway. Exojoule range weapons on their ships and all.

open_sketchbook wrote:The Gaunt's Ghosts book Honour Guard has a very good, in-depth look at the Russ and it's capabilities, while much quantification is to be had from the Kill Team, Cain and Horus Heresy books.

Also, a must for any vs. debate is the order of canon. Games-Workshop's order of canon is as follows. (Take from an interview a few years back, I believe)
- In-Universe Documents (IE, The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer)
- Black Library Published Novels
- Other Black Library Products (Including the Warhammer 40,000 RPG)
- Forge World Books
- Fluff in GW Sourcebooks (With codex superceeding rulebook, rulebook superceeding other sources)
- Official Comics
- Game Art
- Game Mechanics

Within this is a second hierarchy whereby new fluff overrides older fluff, excepting where a series continues without retconning previous information, so, for example, all Gaunt's Ghosts books have canon status equal to the most recent.

In addition, the Vs. community has generally agreed that, in a case where two recent pieces of fluff, the one most in line with previously stated quantifications is accepted.

Nothing published before 1996 is considered canon.

I'd disagree with this. I would put codexes first in canon, followed by sourcebooks (Sabbat Campaign, Xenology) then other materials.

ChaosDave wrote:

Jive Professor wrote:The space marines would teleport some Vanguard down and assault the United Nations on turn 2.

'WTF the nu books are 2 broken!' the Earth would reply.

'No dude, they are expensive, it balances out.'

Then Poland would, much like they did in WW2, deploy rough riders. They would actually manage to kill a single squad of marines.

'WTF Marines should not be able to die!' the Marines would moan.

'Whatevs, our book is like 15000 years old, GW updates you dickheads every other month. Plus we converted them with cold ones,' the Earth would retort.

'I still think they're lame.' The Marines would moan.

Then there'd be a price hike and the whole war would end in a draw because noone could afford to buy all the new stuff.

Hmm if they knew how completely ineffectual, corrupt and useless the UN is they wouldn't bother touching it with a 10' pole.

What would really happen is they would map the planet from orbit. Once completed they would determine the most industrialized and advanced areas and nuke or heavily bombard those from orbit. When you have the high ground it's just a matter of laying siege. Heck they could cause a nuclear winter(not with nukes but big asteroids impacting the surface. After awhile the communication, transportation, and power networks of the major powers will be in ruin. The industrial and agricultural base of most nations will no longer exist. People will starve and freeze etc. Eventually they would begin negotiations and many nations would surrender. Those that they could get to join the Imperium would be armed and equipped to help conquer the rest.

to be onist the un is less corupt and works beter than america.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

jfrazell wrote:You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Most times I don't have a clue what he's talking about either.

My wife says I generally don't have a clue...does that count?

Clue. Get some now!

Saved by Clue!

All you need is Clue.

Let your Clue flow.

Would a chapter have access to virus bombs? I thought only the Inquisition could call exterminatus?
Also until someone can provide some decent specs on what plasteel, ceramite, adamantium are, we have no idea of what their properties are in regards to our weapons. We have a rough idea of what they can stand up to in the 40K universe, but no idea of how good or bad they are in ours.
Also if we existed in the 40K universe then there will probably be some ancient store of devices that our ancestors left behind. Maybe even a weapon, burried for thousands of years in some forgotten place like Antarctica.
Maybe Area 51 found an intact STC machine but have not yet worked out how to turn it on. Actually if that happened then we could conceiveably build our own armour and weapons to come close to matching those of the Space marines. A few million lasguns and supporting weapons plus new aircraft could make us a tough nut to crack.

America would effectively destroy the enemy with deception. Here's how it goes down.

We get several special forces outfits from around the world, say we want to come onto their ship to negotiate. We promise them data and gak.
After they send a landing ship to pick us up we go on, the SpecOps their as "BodyGuards". When we reach their conference room or whatever we send our troops to the bathroom. They actually head to the engine and plant charges to cripple it. After that is done, we have ourselves a coup de tat. Taking control of the ship we repair the engines and open fire on the enemy ship. We surrender and calim that it was traitors that had done this and that they have been executed. We also baught up prisoners that were slated for death. The space marines board and we give them back control o0f their ship and give them their data. However we had taken palns of everything on the ship.

Returning home we used the plans to make our own ships. Ours are bigger, faster, and better in all respects to theirs. We wall of our country and refuse to take part in the war that occurs everywhere else.

After the war is finished we reveal our ships and say the the Emporer told us to do the things we did. They forgive us cause the mechanicus will leave the imperium if they messus up cause of our tech. We join the imperium.

Everybody else besides america, Well you guys pretty much get boned.

We'd send Tony Blair ... ... ... nuff said


FOR THE EMPORBLAIR!!!!!!! I mean Emperor, I meant emperor, the emperor honest ... ... ... .. dammit!

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:America would effectively destroy the enemy with deception. Here's how it goes down.

We get several special forces outfits from around the world, say we want to come onto their ship to negotiate. We promise them data and gak.
After they send a landing ship to pick us up we go on, the SpecOps their as "BodyGuards". When we reach their conference room or whatever we send our troops to the bathroom. They actually head to the engine and plant charges to cripple it. After that is done, we have ourselves a coup de tat. Taking control of the ship we repair the engines and open fire on the enemy ship. We surrender and calim that it was traitors that had done this and that they have been executed. We also baught up prisoners that were slated for death. The space marines board and we give them back control o0f their ship and give them their data. However we had taken palns of everything on the ship.

Returning home we used the plans to make our own ships. Ours are bigger, faster, and better in all respects to theirs. We wall of our country and refuse to take part in the war that occurs everywhere else.

After the war is finished we reveal our ships and say the the Emporer told us to do the things we did. They forgive us cause the mechanicus will leave the imperium if they messus up cause of our tech. We join the imperium.

Everybody else besides america, Well you guys pretty much get boned.

For some reason I don't think that the worst equipped guardsmen in history would be able to take over a SM ship. I also doubt the whole "easily reverse engineer their ships and trick them because spess marens are total idiots and would fall for our deception"

I think you are all missing the possibly most important bit: how long would it take for earth to unite against the threat. I think that the war would shape up a little bit like the discovery of america shortly after columbus, as I think the technologycal difference is about as high as then. The space marines would make brief alliances with some nations and would with there armed ground forces engage the bigger ones , using there spaceships to take out any nuclear weapons or impregnable fortifications in the way(thou the later could be taken out with drop pod assaults).

The marines would probably attempt to contact the earth as a whole, & demand surrender. One world governments being the norm in 40k. I dont think theyd realise at first that we're a bunch of independent nations with no central authority. Their tactics of 'cut off the head & watch the body die' would work less well when there were multiple 'heads'.

I think theyd start negotiations with countries willing to talk & it would be relatively peaceful. Until someone (possibly some slowed civilian) inevitably tried to assassinate a marine.

following this, talks would break down pretty sharpish & there would be war. Marines would attack in strike forces against what they believed were the most valuable targets (judgements theyd make on what theyve seen of our culture & governments during the talks).

I dont think it would be an easy war to win though. Even though marines are way beyond anything we have, technologically, we still have vastly more armed forces. Assuming a standard issue assault rifle in a generic army is the equivalent of the auto-rifle some guard forces get (S3, Ap - ) There would be marine casualties due to lucky shots & things. Even though individual marine vehicles like thunderhawks & predators are way in advance of our tanks, we have the advantage of being able to field massive numbers of tanks by comparison. Each country fighting will be able to commit tanks to the field by the hundred, & manufacture more to replace losses. Marines cant possibly commit anything like that amount of armour, & they have very limited ability to replace losses.

Also, I think once we realised just how in advance of ours their gear was our top priority would be capturing & reverse engineering marine equipment.

So in a short while we would have some analogues to marine technology. Once this happened the fight would become even more bogged down & protracted. Of course, all this is assuming theyre still intent on 'bringing the planet back into the fold' rather than wiping us out.

I feel that once the conflict had escalated into a full blown 'marinez hurr Vs earth' war, & they started sustaining losses theyd just declare the earth to be a planet of irredeemable heretics & attack us with orbital bombardments before sending in more marines to mop up the survivors

Funny thought, but I can't imagine.

I think a few people are giving the imperium a little to much credit in the technology area. I think alot of the materials they use are more about longevity and ease of production vs uber strength and protection. A leman russ may be built with plastasteel, but a space marine can punch throught the rear armor, a space marines armor may be unlike anything we have here, but fire enough grot blasters at a marine and they drop, and finally I dont think that the battle cannon on leman russ has quite the same punch as an M-1, challanger, or Leopard 2, simply because, stone buildings are armor 13 and an LR's cannon has a hard time bringing that down, where a modern tank can drop it in a single shot, while moving at full speed, in the dark, from a mile away.