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"I wouldn't say the class balance in WAR is nearly as good as people are claiming though "

I think thats true to some extent, I can't kill healers within one or two level differences unless I pack more action potions than they do. And I'm a DPS based character. (Decent gear, but I prolly just suck!) They heal rather fast in RVR.

One thing people need to realize about WAR:

WAR is not balanced around 1v1. Its not supposed to be, and its not. Healers will have a hard time dealing with MDPS classes, Tanks are vulnerable to casters, MDPS will get steamrolled by tanks, etc...

The game is balanced around teams. Don't expect to roll a Disciple of Khaine or Warrior Priest and be able to bash face with the best of the melee DPS and still be a main healer, don't expect to roll a Marauder or Witch Hunter and think you can take on a Chosen or Iron Breaker (you can't)


It's a different game than WoW, stop looking at it in the same light. WoW is made to be able to allow every class to do anything, WAR has much more defined roles for each class (even if Chosen for instance can use 2 handers, they will be *far* more effective with a sword and board).

The game balance is centered around teams and realms, not individual classes. While for the most part no class is OP in the overall scheme of things (barring a couple bugged mechanics), there are just some things that some classes won't be able to effectively take on solo, so don't expect to.

The people who say "WAR is not like WoW, it just has MMO features, WoW isn't the only MMO to have these features" amuse me. Because it's mostly not true, and most 'standard' mmo features nowadays were unique to WoW when it was first released. Other MMOs had to adapt them to even have a chance to survive. Quest driven leveling comes to mind.

Actually everything WoW did was previously conceived and executed by other games. All of it. It had virtually no unique aspects too it and indeed many of the facets of the game such as the economy (Diablo style big boss loot drops have always been a major convention of MMO's) or PvP system were shallower than that which it was based off of. What WoW did and what blizzard does with all its games is integrate functional and popular systems within other games into a single extremely well polished IP that favors competitive play and balance over story line or innovation. The colorful atmosphere, good computer performance, addictive diablo style loot system, and high level of balance caused WoW to be a success. Not any form of non existent innovation.

The closes WoW came to innovating was the minimalist and extremely functional UI that was well integrated throughout the system. And yes you're a fanboy.

For those who say WoW is dead I chuckle, point to the massive server list, and suggest you spend some time in Quel'Danis Isle, Shattrath City, or Ironforge/Orgrimmar.

I don't remember anyone saying that.

AlexCage wrote:Because it's mostly not true, and most 'standard' mmo features nowadays were unique to WoW when it was first released. Other MMOs had to adapt them to even have a chance to survive. Quest driven leveling comes to mind.

Apparently someone hasn't played any other MMORPGs. If you actually had for any time, you'd realize how wrong your statement is. WoW owes a great debt to DAoC.

Ahtman wrote:
Apparently someone hasn't played any other MMORPGs. If you actually had for any time, you'd realize how wrong your statement is. WoW owes a great debt to DAoC.

QFT! DAoC was out before WoW was a wet spot on it's momma's skirt. That is why the same guys worked on WAR.

Ahtman wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Because it's mostly not true, and most 'standard' mmo features nowadays were unique to WoW when it was first released. Other MMOs had to adapt them to even have a chance to survive. Quest driven leveling comes to mind.

Apparently someone hasn't played any other MMORPGs. If you actually had for any time, you'd realize how wrong your statement is. WoW owes a great debt to DAoC.

What did WoW gain from DAoC? I only ever played WoW casually, so I wouldn't have noticed...

malfred wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Because it's mostly not true, and most 'standard' mmo features nowadays were unique to WoW when it was first released. Other MMOs had to adapt them to even have a chance to survive. Quest driven leveling comes to mind.

Apparently someone hasn't played any other MMORPGs. If you actually had for any time, you'd realize how wrong your statement is. WoW owes a great debt to DAoC.

What did WoW gain from DAoC? I only ever played WoW casually, so I wouldn't have noticed...

While I'm not so sure of what WoW gained form DAoC (never really played it), I do know that much of the WoW development team (tigole/Kaplan) were essentially the big wigs of the EQ community (and rather whiny ones at that too) They got the jobs at Blizzard because they were in a very influential EQ guild that burned through EQ content and always clamored for more, and blizzard decided to hire them for their new MMO, which is why WoW treats PvP as a sideshow to the big raids.

Personally, I really don't think much of their ability as game designers (especially not after how many times they've had to redo the talent trees and abilities for each class, or their stagnant PvE raid model), but man can Blizzard do Marketing.

They got the jobs at Blizzard because they were in a very influential EQ guild that burned through EQ content and always clamored for more, and blizzard decided to hire them for their new MMO, which is why WoW treats PvP as a sideshow to the big raids.

Almost a million dollars has been handed out in prize money this year to WoW Arena teams at tournaments sponsored by Blizzard and/or other companies. I wouldn't call that a sideshow. The PvE players haven't won anything at all, except some beta keys.

Therion wrote:

They got the jobs at Blizzard because they were in a very influential EQ guild that burned through EQ content and always clamored for more, and blizzard decided to hire them for their new MMO, which is why WoW treats PvP as a sideshow to the big raids.

Almost a million dollars has been handed out in prize money this year to WoW Arena teams at tournaments sponsored by Blizzard and/or other companies. I wouldn't call that a sideshow. The PvE players haven't won anything at all, except some beta keys.

The amount of time, effort and money Blizzards spends developing PvE content far exceeds that of the PvP content. The primary focus of the game isn't the PvP, its gear collection and PvE content. Other than simply being able to attack the opposite faction if flagged for PvP, Blizzard didn't have *any* PvP content in the game 6-7 months after release, and even after the introduction of Battlegrounds, Alterac Valley had a significant PvE aspect for a long time, and Blizzard actively went out of its way to discourage open world PvP, especially town raids, for a very long time after the introduction of the honor system, wanting to keep PvP relegated to ganking, small random open world encounters, and instanced capture the flag matches. Even with WotLK, the vast majority of the content is PvE oriented, with the big PvP thing being an open world castle thingy that they first had made whispers of promising just after release.

A million dollars for tournaments for the PvP content isn't that much either considering the player base, and the vast majority of the player base could care less about such endeavors. Such events are more marketing efforts than anything else, they certainly aren't the focus of the game. Also, how long has that situation been around compared to the life of the game? Granted my big time playing WoW ended in late 2006 and sputtered on for a bit into 2007, with a brief revival this year for a week or two (they forgot to actually deactivate my account after I cancelled it ), but while I was playing, it was always the big raiding guilds that got all the server attention, with a couple exceptions for PvP players that got High Warlord or something after spending *months* in BG's 18 hours a day.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Actually everything WoW did was previously conceived and executed by other games. All of it. It had virtually no unique aspects too it and indeed many of the facets of the game such as the economy (Diablo style big boss loot drops have always been a major convention of MMO's) or PvP system were shallower than that which it was based off of. What WoW did and what blizzard does with all its games is integrate functional and popular systems within other games into a single extremely well polished IP that favors competitive play and balance over story line or innovation. The colorful atmosphere, good computer performance, addictive diablo style loot system, and high level of balance caused WoW to be a success. Not any form of non existent innovation.

The closes WoW came to innovating was the minimalist and extremely functional UI that was well integrated throughout the system. And yes you're a fanboy.

Uh.. Wait... have YOU played other MMOs? If so, you must've played ones that I did not. Can you please name MMOs that had the following features BEFORE November 2004:

Quest Driven Leveling system (that allows you to actually reach the level cap via questing)
A GUI Quest Journal, with all your quests conveniently sorted.
Instanced Dungeons
An item economy based almost ENTIRELY on items that are souldbound, and thus untradeable.
A mini-map that allows you to track specific targets (Specifically your quest givers).
A system similar to Rested XP, which allows casual players to level faster.


I never encountered any of these things in any game prior to WoW, and these are definitely some of the major features that made WoW more successful than other MMOs. These things have made WoW far more accessible to the casual player, who is turned off by the idea of 'the grind'. And it just made playing WoW EASIER on the player. It feels less like a punishment you administer to yourself.

And... you do realize Diablo's loot system is the same as almost every other RPG (if you can call Diablo an RPG), right? It's not unique at all. Beyond the whole 'soulbound' regularity thing, WoW's loot system is exactly like every other MMORPG. Ever. That's something that really doesn't need to be 'innovated'. I fail to see how this system can be dubbed the 'diablo' system.

Also, saying that WoW had a 'high level of balance' is either offensive or hilarious, I'm not sure which. I'm pretty sure no one who played WoW in the first year would say the game had BALANCE. Alot of specs, and even entire CLASSES were virtually useless until they overhauld the talent system. Ask any warrior who leveled as protection, or any balance druid, or any survival hunter, if WoW had a 'high level of balance'. You'll make their day.

ShumaGorath wrote:

For those who say WoW is dead I chuckle, point to the massive server list, and suggest you spend some time in Quel'Danis Isle, Shattrath City, or Ironforge/Orgrimmar.

I don't remember anyone saying that.

therandom007 wrote:

RussWakelin wrote:They'll be fine until Wrath of the Lich King hits, then we'll see.

I believe even with Wrath they will ALMOST kill wow. Most of the PVP servers, From what I hear, have become Dead. I played WoW my self and am currently in love with WHO(Warhammer Online) I myself will not stray back to WOW for a while, if ever! Glad to see this game finally got released!

Ok, so only one person really said it here, but I've seen a couple people bandy similar statements about, so I was just working off memory (which, granted, was probably memories of WAR fanboys/WoW haters proclaiming the sky is falling and other such nonsense). I guess I really should ignore such hyperbole.

Ahtman wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Because it's mostly not true, and most 'standard' mmo features nowadays were unique to WoW when it was first released. Other MMOs had to adapt them to even have a chance to survive. Quest driven leveling comes to mind.

Apparently someone hasn't played any other MMORPGs. If you actually had for any time, you'd realize how wrong your statement is. WoW owes a great debt to DAoC.

Wow... ok you'll need to clarify this statement, as it makes not one iota of sense to me.

I've played MMOs regularly since 2000, and have had at least 2 subscriptions to 2 different MMOs active at any given time during that period. I played DAOC for 3 years, had 3 level 50s across 2 Realms, and RVR'd heavily. I can't, for the life of me, fathom what WoW owes DAoC. WoW borrows from EQ far more than DAoC. Hell, the thing I loved about WoW the most, at first, was how VASTLY different it was from DAoC (ironically, the one thing I hate the MOST about WoW, is how disimilar WoW PVP is to DAoC RVR. Mythic did PvP right.) Of course, if by that statement you meant they owe them because of all the subscribers DAOC provided to WoW.... well yeah, I can see that.

Also, out of curiosity, have you played DAoC recently? It's shameful how many features from WoW they tried to incorporate into that game to try to win back subscribers. Sad, really.





I am a Fanboy, and I approve this message.

(But seriously, I love DAOC and WAR too, both great games)

AlexCage im not even going to give you the whole answer. Becuase too be quite frank, the contence of your
post makes me less enthusiastic.....

But yes apparently ShumaGorath have played other MMORPG's. Becuase some other games include some of the features you write about.

For example EQ included instances.

Quest Driven Leveling system (that allows you to actually reach the level cap via questing)

Umm... basically all MMO's did this before WoW. It's a singular part of MMO's.

A GUI Quest Journal, with all your quests conveniently sorted.

Thats part of the interface that which I had mentioned. A multitude of non MMO RPG games did this long before WoW. It's been a convention of quest driven western RPG's for quite some time. I remember the pip boy keeping track of my quests in the very first fallout title.

Instanced Dungeons

Well, given that city of heroes used them extensively (far more than WoW) and came out a few months before thats a pretty bold thing for you to say. Only replace bold with rabidly fanboyish. Instanced content has been a method of maintaining server lag since the days when MMO's were all text. It's always been there.

An item economy based almost ENTIRELY on items that are souldbound, and thus untradeable.

That is a design choice utilized to attempt to prevent the stone of jordan economy that existed in diablo 2 from occurring again. It was an innovative attempt at basing a fake economy around fake currency rather than fake barter. Of anything that you have said this is about the only innovation that I don't believe previously existed as a trope of the genre.

A mini-map that allows you to track specific targets (Specifically your quest givers).

Actually at launch the minimap didn't track a whole lot. But thats not the issue here. Again, this is something that has been a convention of MMO's and gaming in general for as long as maps have existed. Grand theft auto three kept track of quest givers on the map, as have dozens of games before it. I know that city of heroes does and did at launch, and again. It launched before WoW.

A system similar to Rested XP, which allows casual players to level faster.

This is also a new and innovative feature that was actually initially designed to encourage "alting" and to encourage players to forgo poopsocking for favor of more regular gaming habits. Thus increasing the longevity of the subscription.

Ok, so we have rested XP and soulbound items. Both more attempts at patching the inherent deficiencies with the MMO genre than actual innovations in gameplay or design. Basically the blizard cycle. Take everyone elses ideas, refine them and patch up the problem spots and release it in a colorful world rife with overt pop culture humor and plainly stolen artistic designs. Its a process that is wildly successful.

never encountered any of these things in any game prior to WoW

So I take it WoW was the first game you have ever played. Got it.

These things have made WoW far more accessible to the casual player, who is turned off by the idea of 'the grind'. And it just made playing WoW EASIER on the player. It feels less like a punishment you administer to yourself.

WoW does a great job at masking the grind. However it's actually one of the most grind ridden MMOs in history. There are quests in wow that require you to collect 20 items. These items drop from one in four of a specific monster spawn. This requires that you perform the same action 80 times to complete the quest. It's fun and colorful in doing but it is still a mighty grind. In fact the entire upper level raid system is a repetitive loot grind designed to advocate the tiered loot system that they only maintain by upping level caps and releasing MORE loot to grind up too. The entire basis of the game is the grind.

And... you do realize Diablo's loot system is the same as almost every other RPG (if you can call Diablo an RPG), right? It's not unique at all.

Its not unique? Huh. I wonder why everyone was calling it the diablo style loot grind. I wonder why diablo two had a massive industry of bots collecting items to sell to players for actual real world money. The diablo loot system was revolutionary for its time and has been implemented in almost every loot driven game that has come since.

Also, saying that WoW had a 'high level of balance' is either offensive or hilarious, I'm not sure which. I'm pretty sure no one who played WoW in the first year would say the game had BALANCE. Alot of specs, and even entire CLASSES were virtually useless until they overhauld the talent system. Ask any warrior who leveled as protection, or any balance druid, or any survival hunter, if WoW had a 'high level of balance'. You'll make their day.

I played a moonkin balance druid. I would say the game is very well balanced. In fact if you would pull your head out from between your unmentionables you would also realize that virtually every award, review, and interview relating to the game mentioned and still mentions the task of balance within it and how well it was implemented. But you won't so who cares.

Gemstone III/IV had a version of rest XP before WOW came out.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I played a moonkin balance druid. I would say the game is very well balanced. In fact if you would pull your head out from between your unmentionables you would also realize that virtually every award, review, and interview relating to the game mentioned and still mentions the task of balance within it and how well it was implemented. But you won't so who cares.

If WoW is balanced now (it wasn't the last time I played), it's only after almost 4 years and several major overhauls of almost every talent tree and class ability and significant gear meddling. I really don't know of too many people (at least when I was playing) that thought WoW had amazing class and gear balance.

Vaktathi wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I played a moonkin balance druid. I would say the game is very well balanced. In fact if you would pull your head out from between your unmentionables you would also realize that virtually every award, review, and interview relating to the game mentioned and still mentions the task of balance within it and how well it was implemented. But you won't so who cares.

If WoW is balanced now (it wasn't the last time I played), it's only after almost 4 years and several major overhauls of almost every talent tree and class ability and significant gear meddling. I really don't know of too many people (at least when I was playing) that thought WoW had amazing class and gear balance.

Its never had amazing class and gear balance for a game. It's had amazing class and gear balance for an MMO from the very beginning. The games focus on archtype balance and clearly defined role sets as well as the balance inherent to the PvE party environment has always been one of its strongest suits. The PvP game has always been quite balanced for an MMO as well. Keep in mind however that balancing an MMO around one on one combat is virtually impossible and the inherent weaknesses of the duel system will be apparent no matter what kind of fixes are implemented. However the balance mechanics were good enough for games of capture the flag and whatever other scenario they felt like implementing to not only function, but encourage balanced teams of multiple classes. Which in the end is far more important that one on one balance.

It's not a fighting game. Its a massively multiplayer online rpg. To treat its balancing like that of a one on one fighting game is a mistake.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Its never had amazing class and gear balance for a game. It's had amazing class and gear balance for an MMO from the very beginning.

For an MMO? I can think of others that had far better balance at the beginning, the first few patches were mostly talent updates (remember the Hunter 31pt melee DoT for survival?). And then every patch there'd be one ability for some class that would get adjusted for no apparent reason and then either become totally useless or horrendously OP.

The games focus on archtype balance and clearly defined role sets as well as the balance inherent to the PvE party environment has always been one of its strongest suits.

Except that the archetypes didn't always function until after several talent revisions, and when 40man raids were the big thing, there were classes that weren't always required, who the hell needed Hunters for MC or BWL except for tranq shot on one boss?

The PvP game has always been quite balanced for an MMO as well.

I think you are the only person I've ever seen make this statement. The fluctation from patch to patch and the first two and a half years were horrendous, and there have always been a couple "underdog" classes.

Keep in mind however that balancing an MMO around one on one combat is virtually impossible and the inherent weaknesses of the duel system will be apparent no matter what kind of fixes are implemented.

Granted, but WoW was far from ideal, many other games were able to fix their balance issues in far less time and didn't have the wild variations and ups and downs of class dominance that WoW did.

However the balance mechanics were good enough for games of capture the flag and whatever other scenario they felt like implementing to not only function, but encourage balanced teams of multiple classes. Which in the end is far more important that one on one balance.

You mean like when they banned group queueing for AV because they'd get 40man mage parties that would tear apart the whole BG? No offense, but the BG's were an afterthought to get people to stop raiding the towns that had quest givers, and in CTF games, whoever had the strongest ability to stay alive generally won.

It's not a fighting game. Its a massively multiplayer online rpg. To treat its balancing like that of a one on one fighting game is a mistake.

I don't think anyone was making that comparison.


Other Blizzard games can make a case for good balance (starcraft/warcraft 1&2) but WoW simply isn't among them (or wasn't while I played). Every patch a new heirarchy was established, and the fact that they have had to scrap and redo the talent trees several times since launch (I can't think of another MMO off the top of my head that has needed to do so) is indicative of the problem, especially given the early focus on PvE raiding with the core design team members like Tigole (who was a gigantic @$$ when he played EQ)

malfred wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Because it's mostly not true, and most 'standard' mmo features nowadays were unique to WoW when it was first released. Other MMOs had to adapt them to even have a chance to survive. Quest driven leveling comes to mind.

Apparently someone hasn't played any other MMORPGs. If you actually had for any time, you'd realize how wrong your statement is. WoW owes a great debt to DAoC.

What did WoW gain from DAoC? I only ever played WoW casually, so I wouldn't have noticed...

WoW improved on lots of ideas that started in DAoC. Mostly questing and kill tasks. Deliberate attempts to balance classes with an eye towards PvP.

Basically you have DAoC, Shadowbane, Others and WoW. DAoC was good. WoW was ... I am going to say 'great'. The others were largely PvE/ unsuccesful. WoW is Trollope to DAoC's whatever it was Trollope was influenced by. You are the English teacher.



also, you guys are making me want to play it, only to know I will be ultimately dissastisfied. Unlike, for example, WG's recent sugar binge into the world of Diablo 2.

GAH.

damn you all.

damn you.

also, damn you.

That, and I might be interested in joining a decent RP guild with cool folks. No epeen teenage girlz pleez. Good old fasioned my business runs itself so I am going to play MMOs beer drinking folk. The way the world was meant to be.

p.s. damn you.

DAMN YOU ALL.

j/k.

damn you.

man, I wanna play.

feth. I have to play now just for the random fun.

feth.

*sigh*

damn it.

Back on topic, WoW's greatest advantage was investment capital, which was then multiplied when the whole world signed on to play.

I got over it. I can live w/o random stupid conversations. Only costs me $40 for two weeks. DCM costs me $25 for the year.

<3

Well, I think WoW sucks ass.

Not for any other reason than what it has done to my Flatmate. Before he picked up on WoW (about 6 months ago) he was a good guy. IF it wasn't for him, I'd be living in Scotland right now.

But then came WoW. In that short period, he's almost lost his job, he's cheated on his girlfriend and expected me to lie for him (she is a mutual friend), lied to me, and had his replacement tart over pretty much every day of the week, rent free. When he goes out to work, she's on the pooter. When he comes home, she's on the PS3, he's on pooter. All of that, and his skin is almost Potato like in it's translucency.

MMORPGs are the Devils work!

Sounds like WoW enhanced some problem he already had. I doubt that WoW
created it. Still, that's sad.

You should see his ex. 6', model figure, totally stunning, and the nicest possible person you could hope to meet, if a little dappy now and again.

And his new bird? Short, squat, dumpy, personality of a drain. But she does play WoW.....

The primary focus of the game isn't the PvP, its gear collection and PvE content.

That's not as clear cut as you make it sound. For the last year and a half, classes have been balanced pretty much solely with PvP in mind. Many PvE players complain that they can't get the abilities they need because the designers only care for how it would affect PvP balance.

Other than simply being able to attack the opposite faction if flagged for PvP, Blizzard didn't have *any* PvP content in the game 6-7 months after release

I would like it if you didn't preach like people here hadn't played just as long as you, and in my case longer, since I still play, and much has changed.

Even with WotLK, the vast majority of the content is PvE oriented, with the big PvP thing being an open world castle thingy that they first had made whispers of promising just after release.

Majority of content? Of course. WoW is a complete MMO experience. The world is massive, like it should be, and there's countless things to see and many different paths to improve your character. However, as per WotLK, WoW has 5 different Arena maps, four instanced battlegrounds, many outdoor PvP areas and one new active outdoor PvP siege-area with battleground level activity, the vehicles and a proper reward system. That's a lot of PvP content, considering that you don't need 50 arena maps and 100 battlegrounds to have a perfect PvP game. In classically succesful FPS games like QW you only need two teams of 4 players each and one or two popular maps to fight on. In Starcraft, 95% of the player base play only two maps (Lost Temple and or some version of Hunters).

A million dollars for tournaments for the PvP content isn't that much either considering the player base

It's a massive sum of money for any e-sport. At the biggest tournaments this year, WoW arena players were handed more prize money than the former kings the Counterstrike players. Less than one fifth of the annual prize money has come from Blizzard or its partners, so the burst of popularity of high level competitive WoW Arena play has nothing to do with simple marketing.

Also, how long has that situation been around compared to the life of the game?

WoW arena is very new compared to the age of the game. Arena and the new PvP reward system is also the biggest reason millions of people still subsribe to WoW. Contrary to what you may think, it's the 10 games per week Arena casual guys who keep WoW absolutely massive. Not the 25 man hardcore raiders.

Granted my big time playing WoW ended in late 2006

Well, vanilla WoW was a completely different experience to TBC, and late TBC different to early TBC.

You mean like when they banned group queueing for AV because they'd get 40man mage parties that would tear apart the whole BG? No offense, but the BG's were an afterthought to get people to stop raiding the towns that had quest givers, and in CTF games, whoever had the strongest ability to stay alive generally won.

You're assuming to know how the designers think when in reality you seem completely clueless. Group queuing was banned at first because they wanted to keep Alterac Valley a fun experience also for the casual players. Most people didn't enjoy being farmed nonstop by premade teams during the last two months of vanilla WoW. Rated arenas are where you're expected to perform and try to win at all costs. Nevertheless, people have been able to group queue to AV now for a long time already. I guess they changed their mind once they realised that the most hardcore groups of players are busy with Arena anyway. Additionally, there's been talks of a rated Warsong Gulch ladder system in a future patch, to revive the old premade vs premade server all-stars games.

Anyway, what I'd like to say is that I find it stupendous that many WAR players who have tried this game for a week are already claiming it's awesome and better than everything. People haven't even entered the endgame yet, and many people are already crying the the class balance is incredibly poor, but still some people are orgasmic about the game and how it's the new be all and end all of PvP. Some of the players that I know who have praised WAR PvP have had an unbelievably poor success rate in WoW Arena, not being able to even keep 1500 rating. I am not surprised that they are quick to jump ship and call the game they suck on crap. I also bought Warhammer, and I only hope that its a success because serious competitors make WoW better also, and frankly I've found that the game is so bugged and the 'feel' is so sticky that I simply know that I have to test it for a month or two before I can make an informed decision on whether its a good or a bad game. The only thing I'm sure of is that it was released before it was actually finished. Many of the flaws I've found can be ironed out with patches, and I do hope Mythic is on the ball here.

As far as WoW is concerned, I'm a player who played the game before you could raid Molten Core, and I've been raiding places like UBRS for 60 times and hundreds of hours for a blue item when today you can get an epic item for the same slot by just zerging in AV for a few hours. I've experienced the development of the raid system from MC, BWL, AQ and Naxx, to all the TBC raids and the new heroic dungeons and badge systems, and how the player requirements have been watered down constantly. WoW is much less hardcore than in the early days of Kalgan's and Tigole's raid design, and most people are grateful for it. I know I am. PvP system is what has changed the most though. I've always been one to 'PvE so I can PvP' and for a long time I haven't had to 'PvE to PvP'. PvP gives players everything they need, although there is still a small incentive to do both, which is understandable as players who dedicate themselves to the game should be rewarded for it in game. As far as getting exp in PvP goes, let's face it, who really cares about it? For 99% of your MMO career you will be at max level, and what the content is like there is what decides whether people stay or go. I know I'm not quitting WoW in the foreseeable future. Why should I? It's still the most incredible gaming experience ever made, and will continue to be it untill Blizzard outdoes itself once again.

Was he defensive about his gaming? ie did his ex chastise him openly and frequently
about his gaming? That can certainly push someone to wallow in the mire in
rebellion against people whom you might perceive as trying to control your life. When
you combine stuff like that with an alternative female who shares your interest, then
the result is assured.

If absurd.

Everyone has a potential addiction. WoW can ruin lives just as much as alcohol (at least its your own life usually, and not some innocent victim in another vehicle). I've heard some crazy stories, probably just a drop in the bucket.

And as far as class balance goes, I'm not impressed with WoW, whether in pvp or pve. 99% of the time, paladins were healbots if anything. This may have changed since I stopped playing, but I'd be surprised. And the stories I heard about rogues at launch make me wish I played in the glory days. I don't think I ever played with a moonkin. Balance? Meh.

malfred wrote:Was he defensive about his gaming? ie did his ex chastise him openly and frequently
about his gaming? That can certainly push someone to wallow in the mire in
rebellion against people whom you might perceive as trying to control your life. When
you combine stuff like that with an alternative female who shares your interest, then
the result is assured.

If absurd.

Not particularly. She'd get understandably narky when I declared my destination to be the pub, ask if they were going, and he'd refuse because he was grinding....night after night after night. Seriously, she'd drive him home, he'd jump on the PC and start playing, only stopping to eat his dinner and have a poo now and then. She'd be sat there watching DVDs. The game has eaten his soul! It's the only thing I can think of.

And muggins here bore the brunt of it, as she'd come into my room for cigarette (flatmate doesn't smoke) and a bit of human company.

"Quest Driven Leveling system (that allows you to actually reach the level cap via questing)
A GUI Quest Journal, with all your quests conveniently sorted.
Instanced Dungeons
An item economy based almost ENTIRELY on items that are souldbound, and thus untradeable.
A mini-map that allows you to track specific targets (Specifically your quest givers).
A system similar to Rested XP, which allows casual players to level faster."

Guild Wars.

Therion wrote:

The primary focus of the game isn't the PvP, its gear collection and PvE content.

That's not as clear cut as you make it sound. For the last year and a half, classes have been balanced pretty much solely with PvP in mind. Many PvE players complain that they can't get the abilities they need because the designers only care for how it would affect PvP balance.

If so, then thats a recent enough development that I haven't been around for. Either way, the fact that PvP only really comes to the fore after almost 3 years shows what their primary development stance was.

I would like it if you didn't preach like people here hadn't played just as long as you, and in my case longer, since I still play, and much has changed.

I didn't think I was preaching? I don't know how I cam across like that, I didn't intend to. Either way the point still stands that PvP content was sorely lacking for WoW's early life and played 2nd fiddle to PvE raids. Throwing out a strawman argument about me being preachy and ignoring what I actually said isn't doing much.

Majority of content? Of course. WoW is a complete MMO experience. The world is massive, like it should be, and there's countless things to see and many different paths to improve your character.

You mean Gear? unless they've added something new recently, the endgame was always about gear grinding sadly. If your just referring to Talent trees, almost every MMO has some variant of that.

However, as per WotLK, WoW has 5 different Arena maps, four instanced battlegrounds, many outdoor PvP areas and one new active outdoor PvP siege-area with battleground level activity, the vehicles and a proper reward system. That's a lot of PvP content

After 4 years, thats really no a whole lot of PvP content compared with other MMO's, especially as most of it game about more than 2 years after release. WAR's got 12 normal Instanced battleground equivalents (3 for each 10 levels), open world siege areas with player useable siege engines (Hellcannon, ballista's, etc) in every zone, world RvR objectives that people actually fight over, the ability to lay siege to and sack the enemies city, etc...

Hell, you can level entirely doing PvP, on the high pop servers, thats actually the fastest way to do it for most people. repeatable quests for accomplishing certain things in scenarios (or even just for playing them) such as killing "10 Bright Wizards" or "25 enemy players" make PvP a very attractive leveling route, rather than something people only really engage in once they hit the top rank (or are running a twink) and just pop into a couple times a week.

Also, on another quick note, WAR questing is considerably less of a PITA than WoW questing. When WAR tells you to kill wolves for wolf hears, you don't need to grind 97 of thm for a 1.2% drop rate to get one, you just go out and kill a damn wolf and get its heart.

considering that you don't need 50 arena maps and 100 battlegrounds to have a perfect PvP game.

Nobody said you did, but honest to god world PvP thats more than random encounter ganking on PvP servers or slowed item pickup quests in Silithus would make a world of difference.

In Starcraft, 95% of the player base play only two maps (Lost Temple and or some version of Hunters).

given my views on the Starcraft player base, this doesn't surprise me, its like the 40k players that do nothing but play the same list against the same opponent over and over again with the same terrain setup and same mission, and is a large part of why I've always seen Starcraft as incredibly overhyped and overplayed.

It's a massive sum of money for any e-sport. At the biggest tournaments this year, WoW arena players were handed more prize money than the former kings the Counterstrike players.

Again, given the player base and income of WoW, this doesn't surprise me. CS was originally an HL mod that got repackaged as a seperate game, and it had a very focused market segment, and was never a huge money maker by itself. WoW encompasses a much larger player base with a much more aggressive marketing effort on the part of the developer/distributor.

Less than one fifth of the annual prize money has come from Blizzard or its partners, so the burst of popularity of high level competitive WoW Arena play has nothing to do with simple marketing.

Given the games popularity, it doesn't surprise me. If an RTS came out tomorrow that had the same consistent online player base as WoW, you'd see similar prize money.

WoW arena is very new compared to the age of the game. Arena and the new PvP reward system is also the biggest reason millions of people still subsribe to WoW. Contrary to what you may think, it's the 10 games per week Arena casual guys who keep WoW absolutely massive. Not the 25 man hardcore raiders.

Then the game has changed drastically since I last played

Well, vanilla WoW was a completely different experience to TBC, and late TBC different to early TBC.

I played some of TBC, but the game just felt like a grind. Do these quests over and over! Kill the same boss over and over! Fight the same battle in BG's over and over! Kill the same epic background character over and over!

You're assuming to know how the designers think when in reality you seem completely clueless. Group queuing was banned at first because they wanted to keep Alterac Valley a fun experience also for the casual players.

And they didn't want to keep Warsong or Alterac fun for casual players? That's where the biggest problems were.

Most people didn't enjoy being farmed nonstop by premade teams during the last two months of vanilla WoW.

Again, this applies to the other BG's as well, where it was even more of a problem.

Anyway, what I'd like to say is that I find it stupendous that many WAR players who have tried this game for a week are already claiming it's awesome and better than everything.

It's *not* better in everything. It's *not* going to offer the PvE raid content that some people will look for. It's *not* going to offer the sort of "e-football" experience some look for in PvP (something I detest in Blizzard games), and its not going to be something that a casual player who has no idea how to play a class that just wants to solo everything is going to enjoy.

People haven't even entered the endgame yet

most haven't, but endgame city raids have already begun.

and many people are already crying the the class balance is incredibly poor, but still some people are orgasmic about the game and how it's the new be all and end all of PvP.

Most of the class balance issues are perception. People don't realized that, unlike WoW, there are some fights you just won't win. WoW tries to balance around 1v1 fights, so that each class can deal with all the other classes to some degree. In WAR, the archetypes are very strongly enforced, and thus a Shadow Warrior or Witch Hunter (think Rogue) is going to be at a severe disadvantage compared to a Chosen or Black Ork (WoW Warrior). Once you get a decently balanced team fighting another decently balanced team, the game balance becomes apparent at that point.

Some of the players that I know who have praised WAR PvP have had an unbelievably poor success rate in WoW Arena, not being able to even keep 1500 rating

Not only is there just about zero correlation there, its also so subjective and variable its not even applicable.

I also bought Warhammer, and I only hope that its a success because serious competitors make WoW better also, and frankly I've found that the game is so bugged and the 'feel' is so sticky that I simply know that I have to test it for a month or two before I can make an informed decision on whether its a good or a bad game.

It's a hell of a lot better than WoW was at release, or Guild Wars, Planetside, EQ, and many others. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot, low population servers almost never have Scenario queues pop up, there are a couple weird targeting bugs, etc, but overall it still much more polished at release than any other MMO I've had any experience with.

The only thing I'm sure of is that it was released before it was actually finished.

Name me a single MMO that wasn't. You won't find one. And again, WoW was in a far worse state at this point in its life as well.

and I've been raiding places like UBRS for 60 times and hundreds of hours for a blue item

This to me is the single largest failing of WoW. the grind for gear for very small drop rates. The game no longer becomes about playing an epic saga of your character, but a repeated grind for gear.

WoW is much less hardcore than in the early days of Kalgan's and Tigole's raid design, and most people are grateful for it.

I won't dispute that, but it took them a very long time to get over it.

far as getting exp in PvP goes, let's face it, who really cares about it? For 99% of your MMO career you will be at max level, and what the content is like there is what decides whether people stay or go.

Given how atrocious WoW questing was (at least IMO, killing gorilla's for some sinew drop for an hour isn't exactly my definition of great PvE questing) I would have loved it. I still prefer it over even WAR's much more fluid questing. I think you'll find that a lot of people would enjoy that.

I know I'm not quitting WoW in the foreseeable future. Why should I?

nobody said you should.

It's still the most incredible gaming experience ever made

that is entirely subjective, and I can think of many other gaming experiences I had that were much better. The only reason I (and I suspect, and know of, many other people that played WoW) stuck with it as long as I did was that all my friends played it, it was a social activity. The game itself was often horrendously frustrating and if I wanted to play something by myself for fun (i.e., if nobody else was on) then I'd load up something else.

and will continue to be it untill Blizzard outdoes itself once again.

Again, that is an entirely subjective judgement value that many people would disagree with, including me. I've always seen Blizzards games as overhyped and overplayed, mainly because they are easy to start and will run on anything. Not that they can't be fun, but I certainly never felt they were worth the accolades they always got, and trampled many other games that should have been more popular than they were as a result because they never got a chance.