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JohnHwangDD wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Just by default players are going to say no when asked if DA, BA, SW or BT can use updated equipment.

That's weak sauce.

I'm going to demand to be allowed to field CSM and Necron units when I play as BA or DA. A couple C'Tan and a Greater Daemon ought to do the trick...

Yesterday at local shop 3 people said "no, you can't use new codex". I asked why. The general response was you can't use 2 codeci, nobody else can. I said there was a time when mini army books (i.e. 3rd ed. Wolves, Bloods, DA's) often referred to SM codex.

I'll repeat question today when I go to different store in different town.

Yakface,

to hopefully come to some sort of resolution on this matter, I propose the following

that you and whoever helps you come up with a single reference sheet for space marine rules and wargear, with your self generated FAQ.

if modifying the wargear becomes an issue, have a list of adjusted points costs for each army. I know that would be difficult, but once done would solve this mess

for example, adjust the cost of black templar storm shields to bring them in line with the costs in C:SM so it is just reasonable when they take them. that kind of stuff.

I'm sure GW would have a fit since it relies on their IP, but since they post the rest of your stuff maybe they'd be willing to upload it.

even if the "sub chapters" don't get the new toys, there is no reason why their storm shields, assault cannons, etc shouldnt all work the same.

i can agree with them not getting deathwind launchers on their drop pods if I had to, but I think all codex chapters should have the ability to reference codex space marines for all wargear issues. written in such a way that the costs for YOUR CHAPTER are listed in your book, but the description is written in the main codex

NaZ

cant have a single referancre sheet. Too many problems will crop up. Like BT having SS weilding assault marines for nothing or 4 cyclone shots coming out of their termies.

thats why I put in the caveat of adjusting the points costs for the actual wargear

then again, this is just proposing a work around for the situation

once again, gw has written a codex with no regard to the existing players, or the existing codexes. no attempt will likely be made to recitfy the situation, forcing a number of players to accept that they are playing with a sub-par codex, or just converting over and tossing their fluff out the window

NaZ

@naz: or players can just play their own book and just deal with the fact that not everything is the same or needs to be the same. If you want to play an army in dresses, play an army in dresses.

Post deleted by the Modquisition as inappropriate and unnecessarily flamey.

Why do people have to take this so personally and in a hostile manner-

"once again, gw has written a codex with no regard to the existing players, or the existing codexes. no attempt will likely be made to recitfy the situation, forcing a number of players to accept that they are playing with a sub-par codex, or just converting over and tossing their fluff out the window "


How has this been done with no regard to the existing players? Its like saying you feel left out because another army has something yours doesn't?
I've already made the point about just using stuff from any army book in a game- whats wrong with that then under the idea of getting whatever is new or different from another army?

As for just updating the units- that also doesn't work due to the internal balance within a list- things are costed with regard to their army as a whole and in relation to the rules set they have been written in. This does mean that some of the 5th ed. codicies will appear to have advantages that 4th ed. ones don't- thats because they've been written with 5th ed in mind....
So it wouldn't make sense to start messing with points cost in say the DA book for things, and their stats without looking at the role and stats of everything... changing cyclone missiles would mean looking at deathwing, the deathwing assault rules and so forth.... and suddenly you have a pile of changes to make that render the actual codex itself as a moot point.


I'm totally with Yak on this- there is no way to make EVERYONE happy- I'm happy with how things are- I know alot of people are happy with things the way they work out- espcially the group i game with- yeah some people may not be happy and that is unfortunate- but they shouldn't take it as a personal slight because it sure isn't!


Finally I challenge anyone to have a better solution then which will make EVERYONE happy.....
I'll tell you right now extensive codex wide stat and point changeing FAQS distributed around wouldn't work due to little johnny forgetting his when he comes to play and resulting in staff and opponents losing hair from having to tear it out whenever he plays...

Bignutter wrote:
Why do people have to take this so personally and in a hostile manner-

Because of the huge expense of collecting an army. The more invested you are in something, the harder you take it when it is hurt.

How has this been done with no regard to the existing players?

Consider a 1500 point game. Space Marines versus Dark Angels. They take similar units. And, yet, the Space Marine player is able to field one full tactical squad more than the Dark Angel player. With no corresponding drawback - in fact, they get additional advantages over and above the extra squad.

Now, if you've invested $1000 in your Dark Angel army, and you find yourself no longer able to play the game on equal footing with another army, wouldn't you feel screwed?

I mean, if this just a game that we played with cardboard cut-out men on plastic stands, and an army cost about $10, I doubt anyone would mind the changes to the codex. You'd print out a new set of men, put them on your stands, and play on. But, it isn't. It's a game where you're spending probably anywhere between $1-4 per point that you're fielding, and investing countless hours in painting these toy soldiers. They tell you in the main rulebook that units are assigned point values so that you can play games on equal footing with your opponent. And then they release this new codex that means you cannot do that. That means that simply because of the codex you chose (only a year ago) you're down a full squad, and some pretty impressive rules, before the first die is cast.

Maybe they can't make everyone happy all the time, but they should have been able to see that this is just wrong.

Bignutter wrote:Finally I challenge anyone to have a better solution then which will make EVERYONE happy.....

Thats pretty easy actually. They already have set a precedent for this in fact.

GW could do what they did at the beginning of 4th edition, and do a FAQ for each existing army to bring them up to speed for the newest edition.

Its a temporary fix, but is is far batter than what we have now. Anyone who wouldn't be happy with that is just being contrary for the sake of being contrary as all the armies would theoretically be inline with the newest edition. Which is a lot better than the wishful thinking that GW is imparting to us through impotent psychic 'Jervis waves' about how we are so wrong in how we play the game, and how its our fault. Projection for the win.

Strike that, the people who enjoy schadenfreude wouldn't be happy because their army wouldn't have the automatic advantage over other armies who have yet to be updated. But those types of jerks can lie still while I lovingly drag my scrotum across their faces and defecate in their mouths.

I don't recall hearing people whine and sob when they found out that the servitors used by the Imperial Guard were better than those used by the retinues of inquisitors.

Anyway, you can't win them all, it's just a game (right?) and I for one am glad that GW isn't letting the fans run the show.

well the 5th ed. FAQ wouldn't solve the problems here due to them being about new SM vs DA


As for SM being so much better they basically get an extra squad- DA get their own bonuses- heck thats already been covered- better termies (deathwing assault + cc based unit + still able to take fire support + scoring if beial taken) better scouts,

They are at the end of the day a different army and act as such... If you are just taking similar units then why are you taking DA if the SM codex is so much better? Surely using the differences that are in the DA codex to make a different and unique (compared to SM) list would make more sense?

Has anyone actually sat down and made a fully comparable army then- where this magical extra tactical squad appears then?

JohnHwangDD wrote:@naz: or players can just play their own book and just deal with the fact that not everything is the same or needs to be the same. If you want to play an army in dresses, play an army in dresses.

quoted for ignorance

Let us do a quick comparison......

Dark Angel drop pod with stormbolter 50 points
Ballistic Skill 2
capacity 10 models in power armor
capacity 5 models in terminator armor
capacity 1 dreadnought

OR

Space Marine drop pod with stormbolter 35 points
Ballsitic Skill 4
capacity 12 models in power armor
capacity 1 dreadnought
capacity 1 thunderfire cannon
Special Rules or Upgrades
drop pod assault
upgrade stormbolter to deathwind launcher +20 points
add locator beacon +10 points

.......Now tell me the justification in this.

Babbling about who's wearing dresses offers little to conversation.

Yes, I play Deathwing/Ravenwing. I also play Ultramarines.

At end of day Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars are still Space Marines. All, but Templars are first founding chapters, according to fluff. "WTF" happened to their technology?

Just looking at new codex has me ready to call my Ravenwing bikers Black Scars led by Khan via better leader and better wargear options.

Well the solution is one tha GW has not wanted to do with their core systems for one reason or another.

A Living Rulebook that is updated quarterly.

And yes a Core Living Rulebook and published printed codex/army book releases can co-exist if done properly and still generate whatever it is they generate for GW.

If all the codexes, reference the living rulebook for core rules, basic wargear, etc .. updating 8 plus codexes would be simple... one change to the living rulebook.

This would allow for actually more fluff and background material in individual codex releases. Printed codexes would still be needed for codex special rules that would fall outside the core rules.

Updated Quarterly, would mean that players would only have to become familar with a new copy of the living rulebook once a quarter. Changes would need to be outlined and clearly identifed from one verison to another.

On a whole I think it would be better. Sure other problems would develop. At least one that we would not be facing the potential of folks to field 2 LR in the same army with different rules, bring terminators to the field with diffferent storm shield rules, or have two hooded librarians one with a 24" range and one that claims the entire table.

Back to AdeptiCon planning .. and reality.

This is silly.

They released a new "BASE" codex for the most poplar (by sales) army in the game. The other chapters (DA, BA, SW) have been based off the BASE codex since 3rd edition. They have done FAQ's for all the armies in the past to keep them up to date and bring them in line with the base codex.

It would not be a difficult thing to say that Wargear follows the "base" codex - as do the base vehicles - both for rules and points.

Sheesh....otherwise you've have a dramatically underpowered army - that is basically the same as other Marines. WHY WOULD THAT EXIST? No good reasons.

GW screwed the pooch on this one - plain and simple. They need to quickly rectify and release FAQ for the armies listed above - to bring them in line with the new "BASE" codex. I don't know why they don't do that - it's maybe a weeks work in total - Worst CASE! The players of these fairly popular armies deserve to have the rules necessary to play them competitively. Why would this even be a point of discussion?

GW - redo the D@mned FAQ....

Buzzsaw wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:I's now up to us to either tell our peers that they have to use the old rules for their armies, or face some truly horrendous situations when codices point balanced with one usage of gear in mind suddenly become very unbalanced.

Oh yes. I'm sure that if we let Dark Angels use Land Raiders that hold 12 marines, or pay a few fewer points for assault marines, the results would be nothing short of horrendous![/sarcasm]

Gorsh, what was I thinking? No doubt the BA Codex was scrupulously costed with the ability to field 3 squads of veteran assault marines with FNP. And don't be silly, SM and BA both get 5 termies for 200 points. Ooops, I meant, BA get 5 and a 30 point Death Company for free, well at least they pay for stormshields... Wait, what?

The simple way to hamper the people who would do this is to put a line in the FAQ saying that yes you can do things like this but remember when we get to updateing your codex we will be removing these options so build it if you must but it will not gain you any friends and it will not be legal for ever.

Also anything stated about balance issues in relation to the Blood Angels is a cop out. It is a simple matter to just update the PDF with new data.

edited by Modquisition to remove reference to flaming material.

Redbeard wrote:Consider a 1500 point game. Space Marines versus Dark Angels. They take similar units.

And, yet, the Space Marine player is able to field one full tactical squad more than the Dark Angel player.

Now, if you've invested $1000 in your Dark Angel army, and you find yourself no longer able to play the game on equal footing with another army, wouldn't you feel screwed?

If I were a Dark Angel player, I'd be no more screwed now than I was when both armies were playing 4th Edition Codices. DA have always been the least powerful SM book, and that isn't changing anytime soon. The DA went up with their last Codex, and so did the SM, so the ranking remains unchanged.

Lists, please. I don't think that the difference is that great, assuming that each player fields a GW-recommended Fluffy demi-Company (3 full Tac, 1 full Assault, 1 full Dev) built from 2 SM Battleboxes and a Devastator box at the outset. But the points differential really covers a full-kit SM Tac Squad (~250 pts), I'll be surprised.

Also, WRT that $1000 army, I don't know what you're doing, but even at retail prices to cover conversion & bitz, that's going to weigh in *well* under $1000. Heck, short of a max Conscript army (you know, for the 4-pt models), you can even go Imperial Guard with "Collector's" metal minis and still come out under $500.

But as far as how I'd feel, I'd be fine. If I went down the DA road, then them's the breaks. I have 4 very large 1st tier (by Fluff importance) armies for 40k, and lots of options, so if one army is bad, another must be good. It's not like I've had armies sit on the shelves, only played once or twice for years at a stretch. Heck, I've got unbuilt stuff that's seen more shelf life than anything else...

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@naz: or players can just play their own book and just deal with the fact that not everything is the same or needs to be the same. If you want to play an army in dresses, play an army in dresses.

quoted for ignorance

Let us do a quick comparison......

Dark Angel drop pod with stormbolter 50 points
capacity 5 models in terminator armor

Space Marine drop pod with stormbolter 35 points
drop pod assault

.......Now tell me the justification in this.

Babbling about who's wearing dresses offers little to conversation.

Nomoreso than the entire conversation's babbling among people have no pull with GW design staff...

But WRT the "justification", it's pretty simple: the DA Pod pays for synergy with Deathwing and Ravenwing. DA Pods can carry Terminators, and peg off lots of fast models to get where they need to be. DA doctrine says to use Pods as pure transport, and not muck about pretending that they're combat units. SM doctrine is very different.

Bignutter wrote:
Has anyone actually sat down and made a fully comparable army then- where this magical extra tactical squad appears then?

At 1500 it's not a Tac Squad but it is a 5 man scout squad, or MM/HF Land Speeder. The following was a DA list someone posted on another forum I frequent.

Company Master w/Power Weapon and Plasma Pistol
Company Vets with 4 Storm Bolters, 1 Combi Plasma and Power Fist
Tac Squad with ML, Flamer, Meltabomb in Drop Pod
Tac Squad with ML, Flamer, Powerfist, Meltabomb in Drop Pod
Tac Squad with Meltagun, Multimelta, Meltabomb in Drop Pod
Tac Squad with Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, Meltabomb in Drop Pod
Dreadnought with Multimelta, Venerable in Drop Pod

It's 1500 Points exactly. Making the same list from the new codex(Sternguard stepping in for Company Vets), the total is 1425.

derek wrote:It's 1500 Points exactly. Making the same list from the new codex(Sternguard stepping in for Company Vets), the total is 1425.

Cripes! That would almost let the Loyalists buy six WS 3 BS 3 Scouts!

MinMax wrote:

derek wrote:It's 1500 Points exactly. Making the same list from the new codex(Sternguard stepping in for Company Vets), the total is 1425.

Cripes! That would almost let the Loyalists buy six WS 3 BS 3 Scouts!

You didn't read the very first line of my response did you?

Well the difference between a rhino based SM tac squad with a special and heavy weapon is a MASSIVE 10pts less than a DA squad with the same special and heavy in the same rhino....
gamebreaking


Oh and mind you the DA can take special weapons in 5 man squads- thus making a small mech. razorback mounted army viable.


Finally the SM codex is no longer the "base" codex for the DA- as there has been a change and they now have a standalone codex- with all of their rules, background and armylist seperate from the regular marine book- so a change to one doesn't mean there HAS to be a change to the other-
to take the opposing view- I want to be able to take special weapons in 5 man squads, better stats on my scouts, chaplins and librarian, the ability to mix cc and reg. terminators and the ability to DS half my terminators on top of my lovely scouted locater beacons on turn one....
oh and have a guy flying a jetbike with a plasma cannon

wait- i can't do that with normal marines? Why not?

I guess I don't get why all the tears are coming from the DA players now when us basic Marine players were told to put up or shut up when the Dark Angel and Blood Angel armies hit. I didn't see many Angel players rushing forward to give me free S4 shotguns or 35 point Rhinos.

Enjoy your BS4 Scouts and three part Bike/Attack Bike/Speeder combo squads while you can. Last I saw, that nasty Feel No Pain assault squad the Blood Angels could put together was still pretty darn neat.

Three different army lists, three different army rules. Get over it.

cervidal wrote:I guess I don't get why all the tears are coming from the DA players now when us basic Marine players were told to put up or shut up when the Dark Angel and Blood Angel armies hit. I didn't see many Angel players rushing forward to give me free S4 shotguns or 35 point Rhinos.

Because we knew at the time that a redo of the SMC was right around the corner and the changes to the DA, BA lists showed a change in design philosophy with Jervis taking over. Sure it sucked but the thought was once the update SMC came out it would all be a wash. What we didn't realize was that once the SMC was the base codex for all Space Marine Chapters .. and that moving forward they broke with that design .. to each marine codex being on their own.

Given that .. new issues and problems .. you have several codexs now that are out of line creating confusion with no hope that they will be re-done in the near future. The fact that a new player who happens to like DA, picks up the codex, builds his army, and plays a few games .. Will quickly find out that his rules are significantly different for the same models as the core SMC is a problem.

It is certainly a damned if you do or damned if you don't sort of problem. Either the codex he buys has the wrong rules .. making it some what difficult for a new player. Or if the rules are correct ... that new player will need to become familar with all the differences in his codex compared to other marine armies. Guess when those changes are going to be figured out?... during a game...with an opponent! Which of course is going to spread good will and be fun. What your storm shields are 4+ all the time? Your Land Raider carries how many? Course that is if he notices during the game instead of later .. and then develops the opinion that his opponent was just a plain cheating bastard spreading the news and rep to his friends until he figures out that .. Oops .. he was wrong.

What surprises me is that form a design stand point .. given the whole .. Jervis son getting into the game comments .. this idea of making it easier and taking a new look at what it takes to get into this game from a new player stand point... this sort of confusion seems contradictory to that stated purpose.

Course besides a Living Rulebook .. the only other real solution was to blow it up .. black book the basic lists again, take the opportunity to re-design the whole system from the ground up again and use some modern game and design mechanics. Course that created a huge issue last time .. so much so that in my area we still have a group that "only" plays 2nd edition 40K and well I doubt that GW ever wants to take that sort of heat again.

You know, I don't think that GW gives a fat rats butt about taking any kind of heat from us. Look at us. Look at Dakka. Dakka has many facets, but the one thing that it seems to pride itself on is the "tell it like it is" attitude. No, take all the Dakkaites who play to win. Regarles of why they do. Maybe it's because they are sad and pathetic, and need a win at something in their lives. Maybe it's because they are type A+ personalities, and feel they must win at everything. Maybe it's because they have a very competitive "playground" of friend sthat they play with.

GW does not care about you. That's the message I am getting. You could die in a fire tomorrow, with all your family and friends, and GW would never care, even if they knew. Jervis would just sit back and count his stock options. It's not because they are a "souless company, dedicated only to the idolotry of bottom-line worship". It's because you represent such a small margin of their sales (which is why a company exists in the first place), that your ash-conversion would never harm their stocks. They don't care what we want. That's why Forgeworld has been run the way it has for so long. Models that can't be used in the game, legally. Models that exists solely because they look cool and are part of the fluff. Heck, Jervis said so. The Mouth of Sauron has spoken up. We have wanted this to be a games company for so long, and it never has been. It's not about the game. It's about a concept alien to most of us. It's selling minis. And evidently that needs to be re-iterated, again. Because all the nerd-rage is assuming that "GW did this to them". The truth of the matter is that GW has NEVER done anything for you. They do it for them. And they do it for the people who buy tons of their product, and don't care about the rules much more than a fart in the air conditioning. Because that's where the margin is. And I think that pisses people off in their core because this is an escapist outlet for some many, with GW pissing reality all over the escapism.

And yes, I include myself in the abve conflagration. Because I am in it for the game. I hate painting. I like chess with depth. I have so many things I would want this game to be. But I acknowledge the reality of the situation. That the game is just that, a game.

Then I grab a beer and the wifes butt, and send the boys to bed.

Consistency among codexes is key. A new player will immediately be turned off to the game if they realize "the green robed marines" they liked so much are worst off then every other marine army he faces.

I fully disagree that the solution to this is so complicated. Let's fully examine this situation:

There are currently 9 codexes that share wargear with each other; Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Deamon Hunters, Witch Hunters, Space Wolves. So let's see where they are at:

Imperial Guard - They are a completely different race, and any changes that the new CSM codex has would be minimal at best, and can be easily explained away that they don't have the "best equipment".

Chaos Space Marines - They don't and shouldn't have access to the wargear and equipment changed most by CSM. The only thing that is different is their Land Raider, and that doesn't even have the same options as the CSM version. A small transport compacity discrepancy isn't the best outcome, but can be lived with. Their list works totally different to CSM anyways.

Deamon Hunters - The only discrepancies are Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, and Land Raiders. That is a pretty short list and can easily be FAQed, but those discrepancies are limited, and players can live with them.

Witch Hunters - They have very little that is impacted by thr new CSM change.

So I have already eliminated 4 from the list, because how little the new CSM codex effects them. The only thing we really need to worry about are those loyalist lists that are direct derivatives from the main CSM list.

Dark Angels - They are the big red hearing in the room. You have a list almost exactly like the CSM list in every way but they pay more points for everything and have weaker equipment. The best way to deal with this? Pull Codex Dark Angels from the shelf. They already made about as much money as they could from that. Release an FAQ that either is a reprint of the army list but adjusted with the new wargear and costs or release the Special Characters rules and have them somehow mesh with the new army list.

Blood Angels - As they don't technically have a codex right now. Updating them is easy. Do like I said with the Dark Angels. Either update their list or put a list up similar to the old third edition codexes as a get you by option.

Black Templars - They are at least different enough to warrant their codex being different. Their list doesn't suffer at all from 5th edition and the only thing to worry about is the conflicting wargear. Sure it can be FAQed, but doesn't really need to be. Again, the simplest solution would be to discontinue the book and make their list an online only option.

Space Wolves - They don't care. Their list uses the CSM rules anyways and they are getting an update sooner then later.

So to recap, the easiest solution is to pull the Black Templars and Dark Angels codexes of the shelves. Realease the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templars lists in PDF format online. Therefore, new players only have one Space Marine codex to worry about and Veterans still have access to thier unique lists. Then when profit warrents it, pull the online lists and realease an updated codex with a few changes and more models. The players are happy, and GW still has the capability to keep a realease schedule constantly going to satisfy their profits. Win - Win

Mahu wrote:Consistency among codexes is key. A new player will immediately be turned off to the game if they realize "the green robed marines" they liked so much are worst off then every other marine army he faces.

I fully disagree that the solution to this is so complicated. Let's fully examine this situation:

There are currently 9 codexes that share wargear with each other; Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Deamon Hunters, Witch Hunters, Space Wolves. So let's see where they are at:

Imperial Guard - They are a completely different race, and any changes that the new CSM codex has would be minimal at best, and can be easily explained away that they don't have the "best equipment".

Chaos Space Marines - They don't and shouldn't have access to the wargear and equipment changed most by CSM. The only thing that is different is their Land Raider, and that doesn't even have the same options as the CSM version. A small transport compacity discrepancy isn't the best outcome, but can be lived with. Their list works totally different to CSM anyways.

Deamon Hunters - The only discrepancies are Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, and Land Raiders. That is a pretty short list and can easily be FAQed, but those discrepancies are limited, and players can live with them.

Witch Hunters - They have very little that is impacted by thr new CSM change.

So I have already eliminated 4 from the list, because how little the new CSM codex effects them. The only thing we really need to worry about are those loyalist lists that are direct derivatives from the main CSM list.

Dark Angels - They are the big red hearing in the room. You have a list almost exactly like the CSM list in every way but they pay more points for everything and have weaker equipment. The best way to deal with this? Pull Codex Dark Angels from the shelf. They already made about as much money as they could from that. Release an FAQ that either is a reprint of the army list but adjusted with the new wargear and costs or release the Special Characters rules and have them somehow mesh with the new army list.

Blood Angels - As they don't technically have a codex right now. Updating them is easy. Do like I said with the Dark Angels. Either update their list or put a list up similar to the old third edition codexes as a get you by option.

Black Templars - They are at least different enough to warrant their codex being different. Their list doesn't suffer at all from 5th edition and the only thing to worry about is the conflicting wargear. Sure it can be FAQed, but doesn't really need to be. Again, the simplest solution would be to discontinue the book and make their list an online only option.

Space Wolves - They don't care. Their list uses the CSM rules anyways and they are getting an update sooner then later.

So to recap, the easiest solution is to pull the Black Templars and Dark Angels codexes of the shelves. Realease the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templars lists in PDF format online. Therefore, new players only have one Space Marine codex to worry about and Veterans still have access to thier unique lists. Then when profit warrents it, pull the online lists and realease an updated codex with a few changes and more models. The players are happy, and GW still has the capability to keep a realease schedule constantly going to satisfy their profits. Win - Win

I have to disagree on witchhunters and daemonhunters, for one reason: assault ramps. Everything else is a relatively minor change (with the exception of the 3+ save storm shields, which would be nice on a Grey Knight terminator squad) but the GK and =][= land raiders are radically different beasts, for a few reasons.

#1 - Assault ramps. 4th Ed rules gave Land Raiders assault ramps.
#2 - Machine Spirit. Chapter Approved rules gave Land Raiders a machine spirit.

Those are huge. We're not talking options here. We're talking basic core unit rules that the SM get.

Redbeard wrote:

Bignutter wrote:
Why do people have to take this so personally and in a hostile manner-

Because of the huge expense of collecting an army. The more invested you are in something, the harder you take it when it is hurt.

How has this been done with no regard to the existing players?

Consider a 1500 point game. Space Marines versus Dark Angels. They take similar units. And, yet, the Space Marine player is able to field one full tactical squad more than the Dark Angel player. With no corresponding drawback - in fact, they get additional advantages over and above the extra squad.

Now, if you've invested $1000 in your Dark Angel army, and you find yourself no longer able to play the game on equal footing with another army, wouldn't you feel screwed?

I mean, if this just a game that we played with cardboard cut-out men on plastic stands, and an army cost about $10, I doubt anyone would mind the changes to the codex. You'd print out a new set of men, put them on your stands, and play on. But, it isn't. It's a game where you're spending probably anywhere between $1-4 per point that you're fielding, and investing countless hours in painting these toy soldiers. They tell you in the main rulebook that units are assigned point values so that you can play games on equal footing with your opponent. And then they release this new codex that means you cannot do that. That means that simply because of the codex you chose (only a year ago) you're down a full squad, and some pretty impressive rules, before the first die is cast.

Maybe they can't make everyone happy all the time, but they should have been able to see that this is just wrong.

This is exactly the situation i'm in.

Blood angels stuff is PEWTER. and gets pricey in a hurry! now I look at the new codex and am forced to choose between fluff or playability.

so lets do a quick rundown. this is going to be a long post, but I take offense at being flamed when the flamer doesn't understand the whole story.

so here's a rough army list
lemartes
jump chappy
8 DC
8 VAS
10 tac -rhino
10 tac -rhino
10 RAS
10 RAS
2 baal preds

I have other stuff, but you get the idea

well my chaplains are better, atleast until they get faq.
I have dreadnoughts that can be taken as ironclads if I really wanted -fair enough
but.. my list has 40 jump marines in it. if I had to switch those to fast attack I'd be left with 1/2 as many and only 2 troops choices. not acceptable at 1850 or so points.
so I can either buy and paint up 20 more tac marines and 2 rhinos, or 20 scouts. either way that is $100
my baal preds would be useless, I'd have to purchase new turrets if I wanted to play in tournament

I could go on, but you get the idea. I would have to buy over $100 in models and invest more time just to keep the army current

why would I bother? because blood angels on average are 25% more expensive than regular marines now

10 man tac squad, plasmagun, lascannon, fist, rhino
blood angels cost: 280
regular marines: 230

10 man assault squad, power fist (blood angels get no special wpns)
cost: 265
10 man assault squad, power fist, 2x flamers
cost: 235

drop pods for my army 50 points -no deathwind launcher or locator beacon
space marines: 35 points

and on and on and on.

the arguement that the cost of a death company is built in to the cost of the squads used to be true. now the points spread between codexes is greater than the cost of buying the death company outright. for a tactical squad, i'm effectively paying 50!!! points for the death company model.

so I can either accept a drastically lower model count, or shell out a bunch of money to switch over to regular marines.

yes this makes me a little cranky

NaZ

Centurian99 wrote:

Mahu wrote:Consistency among codexes is key. A new player will immediately be turned off to the game if they realize "the green robed marines" they liked so much are worst off then every other marine army he faces.

I fully disagree that the solution to this is so complicated. Let's fully examine this situation:

There are currently 9 codexes that share wargear with each other; Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Deamon Hunters, Witch Hunters, Space Wolves. So let's see where they are at:

Imperial Guard - They are a completely different race, and any changes that the new CSM codex has would be minimal at best, and can be easily explained away that they don't have the "best equipment".

Chaos Space Marines - They don't and shouldn't have access to the wargear and equipment changed most by CSM. The only thing that is different is their Land Raider, and that doesn't even have the same options as the CSM version. A small transport compacity discrepancy isn't the best outcome, but can be lived with. Their list works totally different to CSM anyways.

Deamon Hunters - The only discrepancies are Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, and Land Raiders. That is a pretty short list and can easily be FAQed, but those discrepancies are limited, and players can live with them.

Witch Hunters - They have very little that is impacted by thr new CSM change.

So I have already eliminated 4 from the list, because how little the new CSM codex effects them. The only thing we really need to worry about are those loyalist lists that are direct derivatives from the main CSM list.

Dark Angels - They are the big red hearing in the room. You have a list almost exactly like the CSM list in every way but they pay more points for everything and have weaker equipment. The best way to deal with this? Pull Codex Dark Angels from the shelf. They already made about as much money as they could from that. Release an FAQ that either is a reprint of the army list but adjusted with the new wargear and costs or release the Special Characters rules and have them somehow mesh with the new army list.

Blood Angels - As they don't technically have a codex right now. Updating them is easy. Do like I said with the Dark Angels. Either update their list or put a list up similar to the old third edition codexes as a get you by option.

Black Templars - They are at least different enough to warrant their codex being different. Their list doesn't suffer at all from 5th edition and the only thing to worry about is the conflicting wargear. Sure it can be FAQed, but doesn't really need to be. Again, the simplest solution would be to discontinue the book and make their list an online only option.

Space Wolves - They don't care. Their list uses the CSM rules anyways and they are getting an update sooner then later.

So to recap, the easiest solution is to pull the Black Templars and Dark Angels codexes of the shelves. Realease the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templars lists in PDF format online. Therefore, new players only have one Space Marine codex to worry about and Veterans still have access to thier unique lists. Then when profit warrents it, pull the online lists and realease an updated codex with a few changes and more models. The players are happy, and GW still has the capability to keep a realease schedule constantly going to satisfy their profits. Win - Win

I have to disagree on witchhunters and daemonhunters, for one reason: assault ramps. Everything else is a relatively minor change (with the exception of the 3+ save storm shields, which would be nice on a Grey Knight terminator squad) but the GK and =][= land raiders are radically different beasts, for a few reasons.

#1 - Assault ramps. 4th Ed rules gave Land Raiders assault ramps.
#2 - Machine Spirit. Chapter Approved rules gave Land Raiders a machine spirit.

Those are huge. We're not talking options here. We're talking basic core unit rules that the SM get.

I thought Assault Ramps where in the core rules.

Darkness wrote:I think its funny that Space Wolves who have had their book for what, 9 years? now are laughing to the bank in 5th. Their book refers to the Marines for items but they still pay cheap prices.

But honestly. If DA got the new marine gear, I can just see all Death Wing armies at tournies. Nothing says win like termies as scoring units with 3+ invulns and new cylcones.

Its our pacifier for having to shell out 48 pts per terminator, 30 pts per bike, 30 pts per jump pack, 18 pts per tactical, and 18 pts per devistator

Since I use a Death/Raven list, my simple fix to this is to new codex compleatly, but just entering Sammel and Biel into the new 'dex with all the same rules. Just get a thumbs up from my opponent and im happy.