Dark Angels FAQ

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**gorgon**

I don't begrudge GW for not wanting to FAQ the heck out of the DA book to bring it in line.

What GW should have done was to avoid any other SM releases until the new SM codex was done. But of course, the business demanded that they just HAD to have more SMs.

Like always, it just brings us back to:

1) 40K is hurt by its SM-centric nature, and
2) the rules don't really matter to GW, as long as the miniatures flow...

**derek**

Mahu wrote:
Centurian99 wrote:
Mahu wrote:Consistency among codexes is key. A new player will immediately be turned off to the game if they realize "the green robed marines" they liked so much are worst off then every other marine army he faces.

I fully disagree that the solution to this is so complicated. Let's fully examine this situation:

There are currently 9 codexes that share wargear with each other; Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Deamon Hunters, Witch Hunters, Space Wolves. So let's see where they are at:

Imperial Guard - They are a completely different race, and any changes that the new CSM codex has would be minimal at best, and can be easily explained away that they don't have the "best equipment".

Chaos Space Marines - They don't and shouldn't have access to the wargear and equipment changed most by CSM. The only thing that is different is their Land Raider, and that doesn't even have the same options as the CSM version. A small transport compacity discrepancy isn't the best outcome, but can be lived with. Their list works totally different to CSM anyways.

Deamon Hunters - The only discrepancies are Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, and Land Raiders. That is a pretty short list and can easily be FAQed, but those discrepancies are limited, and players can live with them.

Witch Hunters - They have very little that is impacted by thr new CSM change.

So I have already eliminated 4 from the list, because how little the new CSM codex effects them. The only thing we really need to worry about are those loyalist lists that are direct derivatives from the main CSM list.

Dark Angels - They are the big red hearing in the room. You have a list almost exactly like the CSM list in every way but they pay more points for everything and have weaker equipment. The best way to deal with this? Pull Codex Dark Angels from the shelf. They already made about as much money as they could from that. Release an FAQ that either is a reprint of the army list but adjusted with the new wargear and costs or release the Special Characters rules and have them somehow mesh with the new army list.

Blood Angels - As they don't technically have a codex right now. Updating them is easy. Do like I said with the Dark Angels. Either update their list or put a list up similar to the old third edition codexes as a get you by option.

Black Templars - They are at least different enough to warrant their codex being different. Their list doesn't suffer at all from 5th edition and the only thing to worry about is the conflicting wargear. Sure it can be FAQed, but doesn't really need to be. Again, the simplest solution would be to discontinue the book and make their list an online only option.

Space Wolves - They don't care. Their list uses the CSM rules anyways and they are getting an update sooner then later.

So to recap, the easiest solution is to pull the Black Templars and Dark Angels codexes of the shelves. Realease the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templars lists in PDF format online. Therefore, new players only have one Space Marine codex to worry about and Veterans still have access to thier unique lists. Then when profit warrents it, pull the online lists and realease an updated codex with a few changes and more models. The players are happy, and GW still has the capability to keep a realease schedule constantly going to satisfy their profits. Win - Win

I have to disagree on witchhunters and daemonhunters, for one reason: assault ramps. Everything else is a relatively minor change (with the exception of the 3+ save storm shields, which would be nice on a Grey Knight terminator squad) but the GK and =][= land raiders are radically different beasts, for a few reasons.

#1 - Assault ramps. 4th Ed rules gave Land Raiders assault ramps.
#2 - Machine Spirit. Chapter Approved rules gave Land Raiders a machine spirit.

Those are huge. We're not talking options here. We're talking basic core unit rules that the SM get.

I thought Assault Ramps where in the core rules.

Apparently the core rules don't trump your codex rules according to GW.

**Balance**

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Yesterday at local shop 3 people said "no, you can't use new codex". I asked why. The general response was you can't use 2 codeci, nobody else can. I said there was a time when mini army books (i.e. 3rd ed. Wolves, Bloods, DA's) often referred to SM codex.

Or, currently, Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters both use two Codeci...

**Tazok**

derek wrote:

Apparently the core rules don't trump your codex rules according to GW.

You make this sound like a bad thing. If Codex rules didn't trump the core rules than their wouldn't be much point in the them.

**derek**

Tazok wrote:
derek wrote:

Apparently the core rules don't trump your codex rules according to GW.

You make this sound like a bad thing. If Codex rules didn't trump the core rules than their wouldn't be much point in the them.

It's not a bad thing, necessarily. But a use the newest rules exception would nice. That way an older codex, who has had a rule, or piece of equipment updated in the latest edition rules would not have to wait for that same update to show up when they redo their book (as 4th ed taught us that not every book gets updated each edition). I'm only talking about updates in the core rules here, not a new codex that has the same things as an older one.

**cervidal**

Easiest thing to do?

Stop thinking a Space Marine is a Space Marine is a Space Marine.

If you're a Dark Angels player, think of yourself as a Dark Angels player. If you play Black Templar, your sole concern should be what is in the Black Templar book.

As far as I can see from all of this, the only non-Space Marine player that should be this obsessed with what is in Codex:Space Marines is the Space Wolf player because his codex blatantly refers to C:SM on multiple occasions. Same goes for Witch Hunters/Demonhunters.

If your codex doesn't interact with C:SM, let it go.

**JohnHwangDD**

derek wrote:
Bignutter wrote:
Has anyone actually sat down and made a fully comparable army then- where this magical extra tactical squad appears then?

At 1500 it's not a Tac Squad but it is a 5 man scout squad, or MM/HF Land Speeder.

Making the same list from the new codex(Sternguard stepping in for Company Vets), the total is 1425.

Oh, noes! That's enough for a naked Rhino and Razorback!

Bignutter wrote:Well the difference between a rhino based SM tac squad with a special and heavy weapon is a MASSIVE 10pts less than a DA squad with the same special and heavy in the same rhino....

Oh and mind you the DA can take special weapons in 5 man squads- thus making a small mech. razorback mounted army viable.

Yup.

cervidal wrote:Three different army lists, three different army rules. Get over it.

QFT.

muwhe wrote:you have several codexs now that are out of line creating confusion with no hope that they will be re-done in the near future. The fact that a new player who happens to like DA, picks up the codex, builds his army, and plays a few games .. Will quickly find out that his rules are significantly different for the same models as the core SMC is a problem.

Huh? There's no confusion - you play the army list printed in your book. The one player has a *Dark Angels* Drop Pod, the other player has a *Space Marines* Drop Pod. Different Codices, different rules.

grizgrin wrote:GW does not care about you. ... It's because you represent such a small margin of their sales (which is why a company exists in the first place), that your ash-conversion would never harm their stocks. They don't care what we want. That's why Forgeworld has been run the way it has for so long. Models that can't be used in the game, legally. Models that exists solely because they look cool and are part of the fluff.

But clearly the presence of the occasional "GW Hobby" Tournament totally changes things to mean that GW is all about powergaming!

Mahu wrote:Consistency among codexes is key. A new player will immediately be turned off to the game if they realize "the green robed marines" they liked so much are worst off then every other marine army he faces.

I fully disagree that the solution to this is so complicated. Let's fully examine this situation:

There are currently 9 codexes that share wargear with each other; Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Deamon Hunters, Witch Hunters, Space Wolves.

So to recap, the easiest solution is to pull the Black Templars and Dark Angels codexes of the shelves. Realease the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templars lists in PDF format online. Therefore, new players only have one Space Marine codex to worry about and Veterans still have access to thier unique lists. Then when profit warrents it, pull the online lists and realease an updated codex with a few changes and more models. The players are happy, and GW still has the capability to keep a realease schedule constantly going to satisfy their profits. Win - Win

There are 9 Codices, so there can be 9 variations, if desired. But what's changing? Common-core Lascannons? No. It's the stuff around the edges. So what if they're different.

Hahaha... You're crazy. Pull codices off the shelves?

At that rate, GW might as well just cancel those armies...

Hmm... wait...

No, the DA and BT have bitz sprues that need to be sold.

Yeah, it's not possible.

NaZ wrote:Blood angels stuff is PEWTER. and gets pricey in a hurry! now I look at the new codex and am forced to choose between fluff or playability.

so lets do a quick rundown. this is going to be a long post, but I take offense at being flamed when the flamer doesn't understand the whole story.

so here's a rough army list
lemartes
jump chappy
8 DC
8 VAS
10 tac -rhino
10 tac -rhino
10 RAS
10 RAS
2 baal preds

my list has 40 jump marines in it. if I had to switch those to fast attack I'd be left with 1/2 as many and only 2 troops choices. not acceptable at 1850 or so points.
so I can either buy and paint up 20 more tac marines and 2 rhinos, or 20 scouts. either way that is $100
my baal preds would be useless, I'd have to purchase new turrets if I wanted to play in tournament

I could go on, but you get the idea. I would have to buy over $100 in models and invest more time just to keep the army current

why would I bother? because blood angels on average are 25% more expensive than regular marines now

10 man tac squad, plasmagun, lascannon, fist, rhino
blood angels cost: 280
regular marines: 230

10 man assault squad, power fist (blood angels get no special wpns)
cost: 265
10 man assault squad, power fist, 2x flamers
cost: 235

drop pods for my army 50 points -no deathwind launcher or locator beacon
space marines: 35 points

the arguement that the cost of a death company is built in to the cost of the squads used to be true. now the points spread between codexes is greater than the cost of buying the death company outright. for a tactical squad, i'm effectively paying 50!!! points for the death company model.

so I can either accept a drastically lower model count, or shell out a bunch of money to switch over to regular marines.

yes this makes me a little cranky

NaZ

You know, as a fellow BA player, it is very hard for me to muster any sympathy for you. I'll have you know that, most likely, my SM will continue to play as BA because BA are a better list for what I want to field. Are you aware that the BA can have 2 pistols in their Troops Assault squads, even at 5 men? That's pretty cool.

First, SM are almost entirely plastic - what pewter are you talking about? The Baal weapons? OK, I'll give you that. The rest is regular SM, painted red.

Your list is OK, although I won't be fielding any Preds.

If you want to play jump-heavy Marines, then you play BA. But you built a power army with those Baal Preds, so the nerfing of the Assault Cannon is deserved.

Quite frankly, the only idea I get is that you want GW to guarantee that you will always have a top-tier army without having to buy any more models. Fugeddabboudit.

And so what if you're paying 50 pts for DC. On net, after accounting for the included DC, you're looking at a max of 10 points being the difference, same as Dark Angels.

You can adapt by buying more, or quit.

Welcome to the GW Hobby.

**Panic**

yeah,

John the thing that doesn't make sense is that they changed core equipment entries but decided to make the changes apply only to the new codex.

I don't think anyone has a comprehensive answer as to why there is variations in these standard equipment entires

LR, Drop pod, Cyclone missile launcher...etc...

when I say i'm using a LR a opponent shouldn't have to think which list I'm using...

I think they've dropped the ball, and have yet to pick it up... but this is something they can fix, picking up a ball is easy.

PaNic...

**Ratbarf**

"Company Vets with 4 Storm Bolters, 1 Combi Plasma and Power Fist"

Should prolly mention that that list is illegal seeing as Comp Vets can only take three total Storm Bolters/Combi Weapons/Powerfists.

**derek**

Ratbarf wrote:"Company Vets with 4 Storm Bolters, 1 Combi Plasma and Power Fist"

Should prolly mention that that list is illegal seeing as Comp Vets can only take three total Storm Bolters/Combi Weapons/Powerfists.

The latest FAQ(the one talked about in this very thread) changed the bullet point to ANY MODEL.

**JohnHwangDD**

Panic wrote:John the thing that doesn't make sense is that they changed core equipment entries but decided to make the changes apply only to the new codex.

I don't think anyone has a comprehensive answer as to why there is variations in these standard equipment entires

LR, Drop pod, Cyclone missile launcher...etc...

when I say i'm using a LR a opponent shouldn't have to think which list I'm using...

I just don't see these changes as such a big deal:
- SM LR vs DA / BT LR? OK.
- SM DP vs DA DP? OK.
- SM CML vs DA CML? OK. etc.
The changes aren't that huge, and not all armies are going to take them. They aren't core.

Now if C: SM had defined SM CCWs to be Rending, and SM Lascannons to be AP1, then yeah, I'd have an issue. But Drop Pod? Who cares?

**Old Man Ultramarine**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Panic wrote:John the thing that doesn't make sense is that they changed core equipment entries but decided to make the changes apply only to the new codex.

I don't think anyone has a comprehensive answer as to why there is variations in these standard equipment entires

LR, Drop pod, Cyclone missile launcher...etc...

when I say i'm using a LR a opponent shouldn't have to think which list I'm using...

I just don't see these changes as such a big deal:
- SM LR vs DA / BT LR? OK.
- SM DP vs DA DP? OK.
- SM CML vs DA CML? OK. etc.
The changes aren't that huge, and not all armies are going to take them. They aren't core.

Now if C: SM had defined SM CCWs to be Rending, and SM Lascannons to be AP1, then yeah, I'd have an issue. But Drop Pod? Who cares?

Drop pod? Who cares? Wake up, GW just released the drop pod model. Drop pods will be played.

The difference between LR's....C:SM allows 12 capacity, which means 5 terminators may ride AND an IC may join squad AND fit in "new rules" LR.

DA, SW, BT, BA players are not asking for earth shattering technology here. Just same stat-line wargear with same point costs.

Case you haven't noticed....New SM codex has DA Castellan whirlwind rounds, DH GK relic blades, DA str 4 shotties, Baal pred style razorbacks. Just to name a few.

**Deadshane1**

HAHAHA

The new rulebook Faq allows Ravenwing to turboboost on our scout movement.

Our Faq sucks, then they toss us a bone.

"Kick me in the balls, then hand me a lollipop."

**Old Man Ultramarine**

Deadshane1 wrote:HAHAHA

The new rulebook Faq allows Ravenwing to turboboost on our scout movement.

Our Faq sucks, then they toss us a bone.

"Kick me in the balls, then hand me a lollipop."

FTW

**JohnHwangDD**

@Old Man:

Except, I'd rather have higher point costs on things that I never field in exchange for better upgrade density on the things that I do.

For example, if getting a cheaper / larger Land Raider meant I couldn't have 5-man Assault Marines with dual Plasma Pistols as Scoring Troops, then I don't want the Land Raider.

If getting a cheaper / larger Drop Pod meant that I couldn't have 5-man Combat Squads with a Special Weapon in a Razorback, the I don't want the Drop Pod.

If getting twin (nerfed) Assault Cannons on my Razorback meant that I couldn't field Assault Veterans or Honor Guard as Elite, then I don't want the Razorback option.

And so on.

So out of your list, the only thing that interests me at all is the Assault Cannon Razorback. The rest might as well not exist.

**strange_eric**

You know at the end of the day after reading all these possible replies and what not I will have to return to the basic problem here:

the Dark Angels Codex is crap.

I don't think anything short of a COMPLETE overhaul on it will see it dug out from a fluff-nutter crap army to competitive.

**H.B.M.C.**

I was going to comment on this, but considering that John will just accuse anyone who disagrees with him of wanting to be a min/maxer to hates KP, there's really no point.

So I'll let it lie.

BYE

**Panic**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Panic wrote:John the thing that doesn't make sense is that they changed core equipment entries but decided to make the changes apply only to the new codex.

I don't think anyone has a comprehensive answer as to why there is variations in these standard equipment entires

LR, Drop pod, Cyclone missile launcher...etc...

when I say i'm using a LR a opponent shouldn't have to think which list I'm using...

I just don't see these changes as such a big deal:
- SM LR vs DA / BT LR? OK.
- SM DP vs DA DP? OK.
- SM CML vs DA CML? OK. etc.
The changes aren't that huge, ... ... Who cares?

Yeah,
Because you don't think the changes are not a big deal is hardly a comprehessive defence to changing (what I/others believe are core) entries.
They shouldn't have made changes to exisiting standard codex enties without having a plan for the existing codexs.

And I have yet to hear anyone give good reason for GW doing this, that can't be countered by why not make a new Codex entry.

PaniC...

Edit:
What i mean by a new codex enties is call the New LR entry a LR mk3 that way old school lists are using a mk2 LR and has a justified smaller capacity.
They could even suggest a way of modeling the difference when building your LR such as having the Sponson guns at the front/Back as the differance?

etc...

But to for them to ignore 8 codexs while designing the 9th is pure and utter gak...

**derek**

H.B.M.C. wrote:I was going to comment on this, but considering that John will just accuse anyone who disagrees with him of wanting to be a min/maxer to hates KP, there's really no point.

So I'll let it lie.

BYE

You changed your avatar...that's...a big change...

**wyomingfox**

Deadshane1 wrote:HAHAHA

The new rulebook Faq allows Ravenwing to turboboost on our scout movement.

Our Faq sucks, then they toss us a bone.

"Kick me in the balls, then hand me a lollipop."

So are you keeping your codex?

**Shaman**

Apologist Brigade- blah

Nay-Sayer Horde- blah

Apathy Squad = me

**blue loki**

So, I should leave my 3000+ points of DA in their cases and keep playing WM/Hordes until GW sorts itself out.

Got it. Somebody let me know when we hit 10th edition.

I love it when a plan comes together.

**JohnHwangDD**

@blue loki: Actually, no. You should start another army. I suggest Orks.

**derek**

JohnHwangDD wrote:@blue loki: Actually, no. You should start another army. I suggest Orks.

Or just use the DW/RW portions, if any.

**Frazzled**

Moral of the story. If playing GW's 40K game, never ever buy anything besides ultramarines. Just to be safe.

**Frazzled**

JohnHwangDD wrote:The whining here is truly unbecoming, but the solution is very simple:

If you want to play as Dark Angels, then suck it up and play Dark Angels.

If you want to play as not-Dark Angels, then pick a different paint scheme and use the SM Codex.

But don't whine about it.

I'm just sad GW didn't put their foot down harder and say "No, don't be ridiculous - they're different Codices. It'd be as unfair and unfluffy as fielding Marked Daemons in a CSM army."

This is true. One can always play Green marines with Ultramarine rules and get the advantages of the ultra dex. It does solve the issue.

**temprus**

Deadshane1 wrote:HAHAHA

The new rulebook Faq allows Ravenwing to turboboost on our scout movement.

Our Faq sucks, then they toss us a bone.

"Kick me in the balls, then hand me a lollipop."

GW called, they want their lolli back as it was taken under false pretenses:

"Scouts: Note that no model may make a Turbo Boost move whilst using the Scouts Special Rule." -C: DA, Page 27

On the plus side, as derek mentioned, the Vet squad can now have all Storm Bolters or all Flamers or all Plasma Guns or some other fun combos.

**Ratbarf**

Lol kick us in the nuts then wave a lolipop in front of us more like.

**JokerGod**

Ratbarf wrote:Lol kick us in the nuts then wave a lolipop in front of us more like.

wear a codpiece and kick them back!

**Panic**

temprus wrote:
Deadshane1 wrote:HAHAHA

The new rulebook Faq allows Ravenwing to turboboost on our scout movement.

Our Faq sucks, then they toss us a bone.

"Kick me in the balls, then hand me a lollipop."

GW called, they want their lolli back as it was taken under false pretenses:

"Scouts: Note that no model may make a Turbo Boost move whilst using the Scouts Special Rule." -C: DA, Page 27

On the plus side, as derek mentioned, the Vet squad can now have all Storm Bolters or all Flamers or all Plasma Guns or some other fun combos.

yeah,
that's just too funny...

Panic...