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Sounds like a mature well thought out response to people being a bit annoying....quitting your hobby...

It's a social hobby. What do you do when the only people that maintain that hobby are total Woops! A Swear! Don't do that, you naughty little boy! that wreck the game for you?

Case in point, Dungeons and Dragons. I'm an avid D&D fan, have been for years going back to a group of my best friends through grade school. We rocked out hardcore in AD&D and 3rd-3.5 edition. Now we've all moved away, I'm in a new town, and the only gaming groups I've found are made up of 30-50 somethings that weigh, literally, 300+ pounds, are part-time employed, have no acting skills but insist they do, and create shallow, railroad-shooter style adventures with plots thinner than clear chicken broth. To put it lightly, that gaming scene is weak and it's all there is.

The result, I haven't played D&D in a very long time.

Look for a new gaming group? Unless you're in a truly desolate, desolate location, there are more gamers than you think around.

If I was really into my hobby (which I am) I'd simply look for different people to play with.

I've had times where I do dislike the local shop, so I'll drive 30 minutes to an hour once a week to go hang out with decent folks.

D&D...eh...well...can't help you there...

@Skyth, Not trying to be insulting but your comments bring to mind something my mom once said to me.

I was 20 and going off about why my relationships weren't working out because this, that, and the other.
Mom picked that moment to ask me did I really think it was everyone else or could it just possibly be me that was the problem.

When I argued, she pointed out that if the same problem happened everytime that the odds were that I was the problem not the world. God I always hated it when she was right, like that, but I did grow on a personal level.

Edited for clarification

targetawg wrote:Look for a new gaming group? Unless you're in a truly desolate, desolate location, there are more gamers than you think around.

Actually, I switched to Fantasy...Better group of people to play with here, where you can just bring a list and play and not worry about being called names for it.

If I was really into my hobby (which I am) I'd simply look for different people to play with.

With the switch to the new edition and all the changes that would make the game less fun for me...It makes me not too into the 'hobby' any more anyways.

"Cheese is the battlecry of the unprepared."

I don't think anything is really cheese. You're either playing within the rules or you are cheating.

Back to the original situation of a tournament setting, my strictness on composition scores would mostly be based on my opinion of the player. If the guy brings a hard list, but he's cool and actually trying to keep the game fun, i'll more than likely be very lenient and not dock him anything. However if he's being a TFG and complaining about every little thing and basically making the game a chore, I won't hesitate to dock him extra when it comes time to hand out the subjective scores. If people care more about winning a toy soldier game, then having fun playing a toy soldier game, they're breaking the first and greatest rule in the rulebook and deserved to be penalized. The best players are the ones who can stomp the crap out of you, but still let you have fun while they're doing it.

focusedfire wrote:The gist is that your not playing by yourself, what you may consider fun he may not.

Exactly.

I see a lot of people acting like it's only their enjoyment of the game that matters, and not that of anyone they play against ever.

If I felt like that I'd go out of my way to buy whatever army was #1 competitively and then spam nothing but the #1 units.

I think I'd find myself without any friends or anyone to play with if I had that attitude though.

I think bringing 45 S7 D3 shot lootas and nob bikers w/ the wound-juggling might be fun for me, but it'd be one miserable afternoon for the other player.

I've played quite a bit and have played 40k from one side of the US to the other. Sir your list was not chesse.

On a side note what happened to mauleed could some one PM

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Back to the original situation of a tournament setting, my strictness on composition scores would mostly be based on my opinion of the player. If the guy brings a hard list, but he's cool and actually trying to keep the game fun, i'll more than likely be very lenient and not dock him anything. However if he's being a TFG and complaining about every little thing and basically making the game a chore, I won't hesitate to dock him extra when it comes time to hand out the subjective scores. If people care more about winning a toy soldier game, then having fun playing a toy soldier game, they're breaking the first and greatest rule in the rulebook and deserved to be penalized. The best players are the ones who can stomp the crap out of you, but still let you have fun while they're doing it.

And this is one reason comp doesn't work. People confuse COMP and SPORTS.

If he's TFG you dock his SPORTS
If his list is hard (in a comp setting) you dock his COMP

Not docking comp for an un-compy list means people who brought the flavor of the week power army have a leg up on the rest of the field who brought purposefully "softer" army lists to participate in a comp-environment.

targetawg wrote:

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Back to the original situation of a tournament setting, my strictness on composition scores would mostly be based on my opinion of the player. If the guy brings a hard list, but he's cool and actually trying to keep the game fun, i'll more than likely be very lenient and not dock him anything. However if he's being a TFG and complaining about every little thing and basically making the game a chore, I won't hesitate to dock him extra when it comes time to hand out the subjective scores. If people care more about winning a toy soldier game, then having fun playing a toy soldier game, they're breaking the first and greatest rule in the rulebook and deserved to be penalized. The best players are the ones who can stomp the crap out of you, but still let you have fun while they're doing it.

And this is one reason comp doesn't work. People confuse COMP and SPORTS.

If he's TFG you dock his SPORTS
If his list is hard (in a comp setting) you dock his COMP

Not docking comp for an un-compy list means people who brought the flavor of the week power army have a leg up on the rest of the field who brought purposefully "softer" army lists to participate in a comp-environment.

I can't really tell what your saying here, but I believe you just said. People who have strong lists should get docked points. Which is incredibly unfair, unless the person was being annoying and obnoxious throughout the game. Really if it's in the rules, who are you to say, "your army is too strong I'm marking you down." Some people are just competitive.

1) What I'm saying is obvious

2) Yes, I did say "hard lists should get docked points" in a comp environment.

It's like playing in a doubles tournament and complaining when they don't let you play because you didn't show up with a partner.

Its a comp tournament. You knew that when you decided to show up and enter. List composition is therefore part of the event. Don't be so arrogant as to think your particular view on comp should be forced upon the tournament organizers of the event that is being run for you.

In a non-comp environment, its totally inappropriate for people to dock your sports based on your list composition ie, "what a jerk, nidzilla again? thats a 0 sports". Just as inappropriate as showing up to a comp tournament and saying "my nob biker shouldn't get low comp, I'm just competitive!"

And "Who am i to say". I'm your opponent. In a tournament with composition scores. Therefore, I will mark down your composition score. Don't expect it to be max for nob biker, nidzilla, or dual lash.

Don't like it? Don't show up to an event with comp scores and whine about it. The rest of us showed up to play a tournament with comp, and we're going to.

Edit: Removed caps, used em to emphasize the message, turned out just looking like i was yelling. bolded for emphasis, think it works better

I will also say that i'm not trying to speak to whether comp belongs in events or not, thats a whole other debate.

Just if it IS in an event, you can't call foul when nob biker doesn't hit 20/20 on the comp scores, and hits more in the 0-1 range, regardless of it being legal.

Comp events are actually quite understanding to the player base if you think about it, they want a comp event, they run one, but they also include an award based independently of comp, Best General, which is one of the biggest awards, based solely on battle points.

Except when they have best general combining comp and battle points. Especially when comp is judged by things other than the raw power of the list.

Simple answer then: Don't go to the comp event.

And I've never seen Best General combine comb and BP, that sounds like more of an exception than the norm

Comp is always subjective, just like painting, you know its a crap shoot walking in to an event.

@ OP, I still stand with my vote that the list was not cheesy and the majority of the vote feels the same way.

Still, you can see how this is somewhat controversial just by reading this thread. Which is why I suggest finding out the gaming customes for each particular store or event.
You respect the local custom or philosophy, then getting support in shutting up the poor sports that bring their whine and cheesy will be a lot easier. This should also improve the gaming atmosphere at said places. If not, then certainly don't reward them with any of your money being spent there.

targetawg wrote:Simple answer then: Don't go to the comp event.

And I've never seen Best General combine comb and BP, that sounds like more of an exception than the norm

Comp is always subjective, just like painting, you know its a crap shoot walking in to an event.

In a tournament series I used to attend in Sacramento they just started to combine Comp and Battle Score for the Best General award.

And in that series comp is hard-scored, and NOT subjective.

What kind of hard-scoring system do they use? I'd like to attend an event where comp isnt just "judge opinion" as I typically find in east-coast tournies.

Great Escape Games in Sacramento. Some of the locals are pricks, but the guy who organizes the tourney and runs the store is great and unbiased.

Here's the link to the comp scoring for their "Contest of Champions."

Contest of Champions Comp

It's alright, but...isnt whoever made that subjective? Whoever made that made it based on what they determined was and was not appropriate for an army.

Mech armies are punished because the creator feels infantry should outweigh by a factor of 10?

Taking more troops is rewarded, what about the fact that plenty of armies have bad troop selections, and some have amazing ones?

Etc etc, all comp is pretty subjective, imo. Even hard systems had to be created at some point.

But the point is that the comp system is not left up to the opposing player: it's set so that everyone has guidelines, and the option of following those specific guidelines or not. I'm personally not a fan of comp systems, but at least that comp system doesn't allow players to tank their opponents comp on whim.

Ah ok, thats what you meant. The events I've been to the judges score it for everyone, however they don't release how they score it, and it still ends up feeling subjective.

I received a 6 with mechanized heavy imperial guard, and a dual lash CSM guy with the oblits and normal trappings scored a 6 as well.

Im not a huge comp fan, but I'll play it when I go, although it usually leaves a bad taste in my mouth afterwards I must say.

targetawg wrote:It's alright, but...isnt whoever made that subjective? Whoever made that made it based on what they determined was and was not appropriate for an army.

At least it's open and honest about exactly what is and is not expected. That being said, I don't think this specific comp system is a very good way of judging the power of the lists.

I agree. It penalizes many builds that are just fine and balanced, or even underpowered, and doesn't do anything to deal with some specific over-powered builds. You can make a super-nasty ork list, but Guard lists of all kinda are heavily penalized, except for drop-guard, which is the nastiest guard build available.

Well, speaking of witch trials...

If anyone is up for some interesting reading, my "cheesy" list and the results of the tournament spawned a "witch trial" so to speak....

There's a 12 page thread here, with several previous threads in several different of our local gaming forums that spawned because of it. Personally, I'm moving out of the area at the end of the month so...I don't care anymore. But you can read some of the drama and flaming here:

http://karakgorbard.createforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=404

Dakka has enough pointless drama and stupid flames, don't bring your flame wars from elsewhere here.

You went into that thread, it seems, rehashing an old issue and talking down to people in a forum set aside for flaming.

Surprise.

You got flamed.

Its a lame list. Its got Ghazzie. Its got snikrot and his kommandos. Its a 1300 point game. If you'd simply of admitted it was a lame list instead of sitting on a high horse, I doubt people would have cared.

If I brought Eldrad/Seer council/Avatar or some such to that event, I'd expect the same treatment.

I happen to like Ghazzie.

I made some army lists that didn't have him to try other things and since its my wife's army and the lists were sort of "general lists" for her to try, she wanted Ghazghkull in all of them. The end result is that he shows up in every army list.

I happen to like eldrad, doesn't mean he belongs in that points level.

And its not just ghazzie, you took snikrot and his kommandos, with ghazzie, at that points level.

Your list was a bit lame, the real issue seems to be that when told that, you argued it wasn't. If you'd of just admitted that it was a pretty power-gamer army for a 1300 point tourney, I doubt anyone would have batted an eye.

Well, that's why this thread exists. Relatively speaking, I'm still pretty damn new (5th edition+) to 40k, and have very limited experience with the game that's limited to a small group of gamers in one store. This tournament was my first time gaming out of "that circle" of people.

That "circle" said that the list wasn't overpowered, the other people did, figured I'd come here for a neutral 3rd assessment.

In my opinion, you erased the possibility of a neutral 3rd assessment when you dragged in old issues, issues that were completely unrelated to this forum in whole. I'm not taking pot shots at you. Just saying...don't start stuff, won't be stuff. I get the impression that most don't give a damn about the background story.

I see a lot of people acting like it's only their enjoyment of the game that matters, and not that of anyone they play against ever.

If I felt like that I'd go out of my way to buy whatever army was #1 competitively and then spam nothing but the #1 units.

So someone that likes to play hard lists doesn't want their opponent to enjoy the game? And someone who doesn't play a hard list is somehow a saint who just wants everyone to have fun? Bee Essss

If you get in someones face cause they have a cheesy list, then does that 'cheesemongers' enjoyment of the game really matter to you? Of course not, all that matters is that you feel you won't have fun playing against such a list.

To the TO, no your list was not cheesy IMHO but there's a number of things taht would make it so to others. Hopefully you are learning how subjective cheese is and how much nerd rage can come from discussing it on both sides of the discussion.

Best way to be is open either way. I have fun whether its a no comp, hard ass all the way event or a comp event full of soft scores. Accpet other peoples opinions for what they are, adapt to each store/tournaments rules and quirks and have a good time with your toy soldiers.