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I'm personally not a fan of named characters in lists in general. But that list is not cheesy. I could think of 100 other ways to make a more cheesy list using a ork codex

I guess since two players have commented on my "the ork codex is made of cheese comment" I'll have to back it up with some actual reasoning.

Here's the deal, for most players, even knowing intimately how the ork codex works, Ghazkulls special Waaagh is simply too much to handle. It virtually gives Trukk boyz and unstoppable 2nd turn charge, with a wide enough range that they can choose to charge units that you really don't want them to, rather than the units you might otherwise have set up as decoys.

Then on top of that, it gives boyz on foot an 18" charge range, barring difficult terrain roles. Top that first turn move+run, and you've got a full-army charge that's very difficult to counter or maneuver around, especially since two of the deployment scenarios almost force the armies to be closer than 24" from each other at the start of the game.

Against many CC armies you can shoot the transports to give yourself more time. Against orks if you blow up a truck, there's a very very good chance it will simply drop off its payload of boyz closer to you.

So it forces the enemy player into CC with a very likely superior CC force with very, very little chance for them to have weakened it significantly by shooting. Couple this with two turns of very competent ork shooting by things such as lootas and shoota boyz, and it's a mix that many lists just can't beat unless the ork player flubbs many many rolls. But since orks generally roll so many dice, they're much more likely to roll closer to statistic mean, so even that's not something that happens often.

So that's why people get frustrated fighting orks, and why Ghazkull just makes it even worse. Maybe I am a whiny little B when it comes to orks, but last month in my 40k league a guy was running Ghazkull all month (from 1000 points to 1750) and I honestly didn't want to play him.

That's very similar to the army I'm planning, I don't really think it's fair that someone calls a legal army cheese. You can build it however you want.

Personnally i go with the old rule of no named characters unless the army is 1500pts+ otherwise not cheesy at all.

I'm not familiar so much with the way things "used to work" or previous editions. I didn't start playing Warhammer 40k until after 5th edition came out. The only rules I know are these.

willydstyle wrote:Here's the deal, for most players, even knowing intimately how the ork codex works, Ghazkulls special Waaagh is simply too much to handle. It virtually gives Trukk boyz and unstoppable 2nd turn charge, with a wide enough range that they can choose to charge units that you really don't want them to, rather than the units you might otherwise have set up as decoys.

I'm failing to see the problem as this isn't really any different or worse than Turn 1 Hormagaunt charges.

Because boyz with a klaw nob are waaaaaay more destructive than hormagaunts. Hormagaunts can hope to hold units up, trukk boyz mobs destroy things.

Face it...5th Edition 40K is all about using Special Characters to theme your army. There's no way around it...if you want to run an army that's different than the stock army list, you HAVE to use special characters. Holding a prejudice against them is severely unfair and a ridiculous holdover from previous editions. You're not playing 40K 3, or 40K 4...you're playing 40K 5 now. It's time to make a change.

EXACTLY. I am in agreement with Centurion yet again.

If you play a "rule" stating that someone can't use a named character you are flat out, no questions asked, making gak up. That is not a rule nor has it been for years.

When someone is making up a rule, THEY ARE CHEATING. Flat out. The game has evolved, accept it, rethink your tactics and move on.

Cheese is nonexistent, there are only legal and illegal lists.

When ever you ask the question is X army cheesy, you will get all kinds of answers.

The normal ones are:
“No list is cheesy.”
“No army is cheesy, only players”.
“If it is in the rulebook, then it is legal”.
“Any list with X% (normally 40%+) in Troops is not cheesy”
Etc.

Dakkaittes for the most part do not believe in cheese.



Of those that do believe in cheese, then you can have a debate.

I am of the impression that almost any Ork army is cheesy. They are the “Easy Button” of armies. They are so easy that they make a poor generals hard to beat, and a good general impossible to beat.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:As I am told I am on old timer with outdated views, take this with a grain of salt. Also, i do not speak for all old timers, just myself. (And so much for customer loyalty being valued.)

Once upon a time special characters were, well, special. You would have to ask your opponents permission to use them. Some would argue was because they were very overpowered, but i don't see them being any less or more powerful now as they were. The limited use was designed to keep them SPECIAL, used for special games and for special occasions, not everyday use. Gazkull doesn't show up to every little waaag, he runs them, big ones. Abbadon is not personally involved with every single chaos attack. Vulcan does not protect every single imperial citizen at the same time.

I have 2 questions for you:

1; if you were to play against another ork player who also had Gazkull and Snikrot, what would you do? there is only one of each, as they are unique individuals. Would you roll off to see who got to use which? (that only seams fair to me).

2; What if you took out the special characters from your list and played with regular HQ choices? Would your opponents still call cheese? (could you still win?) If they ceased, then you know that they only have a distaste for special characters in everyday use. If they persist, well then they're lame and probable just sore losers, validating/redeeming you.

I couldn't agree with this more. I despise using special characters exactly because of that reason. I have never played against or with a special character because I don't feel it to be fun. The character is obviously better than anything anything else you could make for the points cost. He has special rules and special equipment not normally available... which is why he is special and not normal. In large games I wouldn't mind as much but I would prefer not to play against them. In my little circle of gaming we don't allow special characters, and we enforce characterful and themed army lists (hooray for story!). We have a couple friends that just joined and he's having a hard time adapting since at the local GW all they do is play against lists made specifically to win by taking advantage of the rules (as opposed to a balanced list). Examples: Tyranid monster lists, pure Ork boyz lists etc. If you can't lose, it's cheesy. 'Nuff said.

As I said, personally I don't like playing against people with special characters so quite simply, I don't. As for the OPs list, I wouldn't play against it anyways since he has special characters. If he took them out, I suppose I would. I mean it lacks variety and I would in all honesty place it on the less balanced side, but as mentioned by someone else, there's definitely other ways to make an Ork list cheesier. Just note that this is my opinion and I'm kind of picky about how I play (I play to have fun).

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:
I have 2 questions for you:

1; if you were to play against another ork player who also had Gazkull and Snikrot, what would you do? there is only one of each, as they are unique individuals. Would you roll off to see who got to use which? (that only seams fair to me).

2; What if you took out the special characters from your list and played with regular HQ choices? Would your opponents still call cheese? (could you still win?) If they ceased, then you know that they only have a distaste for special characters in everyday use. If they persist, well then they're lame and probable just sore losers, validating/redeeming you.

1. Simple. One person has Ghazghkull and Snikrot, the other has Uberwarboss Giant McHuge and Boss Kommando von Sneaky Git, or whatever they wanna name them if they even care.

2. Simple enough to say, but some of us(Deathwing and Ravenwing players, for example) don't have that choice, as a Special Character is required to even field the army.

I personally don't think the issue is "special characters." Look at the Chaos Codex, none of the special characters (except Bile) really have any effects that change your army, or give you army-wide special abilities.

If there were a non-special character that gave Gazkhull's version of Waagh, it would be just as cheesy, regardless of whether or not the ability is on a SC.

The reason why people had a problem with that particular army is because there's very little that many armies can do to defend themselves from that.

It's no fun playing when all you do is remove your models from the table and can't fight back.

Platuan4th wrote:2. Simple enough to say, but some of us(Deathwing and Ravenwing players, for example) don't have that choice, as a Special Character is required to even field the army.

Make a house rule with your buddies where you use the rule that allows this but not take the special character. We're doing that for our Salamander player (bad example, I know, but still ). Of course that may not work where you play regularly... or tournies, haha.

It's no fun playing when all you do is remove your models from the table and can't fight back.

Infinitely true. What's the point of "playing" against something like that?

The point is that you come up with a way to win instead of rolling over and playing dead. By complaining you change nothing, the rules are what they are. By not playing someone because of the list they bring, you are only limiting your pool of friends to play against. If someons is a jerk then by all means do not play them, but don't judge someone because of the list they bring, they can play however they want to.

It is fun to try to brainstorm ways to beat lists. What is better, to be guy number X crying about a "broken" list and having a temper tantrum or the guy that figures out a way to beat it?

If you play in a limited circle of friends then come up with whatever house rules you want to. In which case, you have nothing to complain about if others disagree with your game philosophy as you will not be playing them.

But when playing pick up games or in tournies then expect people to come to the table with different ideas on what is fun or how the game should be played. You can't expect anyone to do anything but follow the rules as they are written.

As for having two of the same named character, unless you are playing a narative or fluff driven campaign, who cares? If someone brings 2,000 points to the table (or whatever size) and that is the models they have, you can't honestly expect him to not play with their favorite guy because you both have him (or her).

@Blackmoor
I am surprised to here you say that, Alan. I figured you would not ride the cheese wagon, I know you are a good player. I play against Orks all the time and while I agree they are tough, they are by no means unbeatable. Even uber lash Chaos is beatable (who trump orks, IMO), if admitedly annoying. It makes for good games in my opinion, I like facing a tough list that requires all of my tricks and tactics to earn a win.

The problem with fluff driven lists is that they usually suck terribly. I played a marine player a while back with an "out of the pictures in the codex" army, and absolutely reamed him with my Guard (who are in no way a power gamer list), it was lame for both of us. I would rather see a "cheesey" army across from me than a kick the baby list. At least with a "WAAC" list you have a challenge and feel engaged in the game.

What are these "Special Characters" you talk about?
Surely there must be some rules to differentiate them from any other HQ-choice (or upgrade)?

I think some people need to understand that the game has changed.

Cheese, no. Overcompetitive or poor form, maybe.

There is a difference in mentality between building a competitive army and building a powerstack of special characters.

Some people just try to build an effective all-comers list with no spec charaters(unless mandatory). Then use their ability as a general as their competitive edge. This, currently, is considered as good sportsmanship in most gaming circles.

Others will try, as any real general would, to purchase an edge with superior units and combinations of such. Nothing wrong with this in a limited manner, but overdo it you'll end up with problems.
You combine this style of army building with what seems to be a prevalent and maybe justifiable bias against Special characters and cheese comments and TFG accusations may follow. Whether these comments are right vary greatly depending on both parties sportsmanship and the situation.

Where you run into a problem is when you mix the two types of players. When this happens you end up being already down a sportsman pt, in a lot of players eyes, for over-competitiveness by using a special character.
So the other people present are more likely to side with the first type of player. They'll tend to lean that way even if your opponents not really that type but not using special characters.
What's funny is that if the guy makes a cheese comment in any other way than as friendly jesting(Even then could be seen as questionable) he's definitely guilty of poor sportsmanship himself.


The real problem here how the tourny was apparently organized.
The use of special characters is the Tourny organizers responsibility.
If it's allowed then your opponent and the others who made such comments are the poor sports and you should alert the tourny organizers.
Now I have to ask were they just lightly joking or rather nasty about how they said such? Just lightly joking, I'd say don't be oversensitine.
If they were nasty about it, well, wasn't to long ago someone would get into trouble for behaving in such a manner. Saw a guy asked to leave for the day over statements along these lines. But then standards may not be what they used to be.

Without being there I can't really say anything other than, "There is no cheese only greater levels of challenge."

Thinking about this, Has there ever been a tournament where you just bring your army to show off and instead draw generic armies. Or maybe draw codexes and have half an hour to build the points limit.

Heck, I'd love to build an army list, bring it, and then it goes into a turn by turn draw. That would be challenging and fun.

Just an Idea. Think it thread worthy?

focusedfire wrote:Cheese, no. Overcompetitive or poor form, maybe.

There is a difference in mentality between building a competitive army and building a powerstack of special characters.

Some people just try to build an effective all-comers list with no spec charaters(unless mandatory). Then use their ability as a general as their competitive edge. This, currently, is considered as good sportsmanship in most gaming circles.

Others will try, as any real general would, to purchase an edge with superior units and combinations of such. Nothing wrong with this in a limited manner, but overdo it you'll end up with problems.
You combine this style of army building with what seems to be a prevalent and maybe justifiable bias against Special characters and cheese comments and TFG accusations may follow. Whether these comments are right vary greatly depending on both parties sportsmanship and the situation.

Where you run into a problem is when you mix the two types of players. When this happens you end up being already down a sportsman pt, in a lot of players eyes, for over-competitiveness by using a special character.
So the other people present are more likely to side with the first type of player. They'll tend to lean that way even if your opponents not really that type but not using special characters.
What's funny is that if the guy makes a cheese comment in any other way than as friendly jesting(Even then could be seen as questionable) he's definitely guilty of poor sportsmanship himself.


The real problem here how the tourny was apparently organized.
The use of special characters is the Tourny organizers responsibility.
If it's allowed then your opponent and the others who made such comments are the poor sports and you should alert the tourny organizers.
Now I have to ask were they just lightly joking or rather nasty about how they said such? Just lightly joking, I'd say don't be oversensitine.
If they were nasty about it, well, wasn't to long ago someone would get into trouble for behaving in such a manner. Saw a guy asked to leave for the day over statements along these lines. But then standards may not be what they used to be.

Without being there I can't really say anything other than, "There is no cheese only greater levels of challenge."

Totally agree with you FF, in my gaming group many of us are GT regulars, their are times when we have good fun clean games but most of the time we are testing out units or builds for tournaments etc, even at the FLGS many of the kids and people that play their actively state that next week they want to play my lash list just because its more of a fun challenge because whilst we bring hard lists its all about fun and not winning all the time, the fact that most of us are evenly matched with hard lists makes the game even more fun.

Of course this is just one side of the spectrum, at GT's i have run across people that complain about my list the minute they see the army, others rub their hands together and say oo this is going to go one way or the other but its gunna be good.

This of course as you say is an inherent problem with tourny play, many people go along knowing what a tournament will be like, others go with certain ideas on how they and their friends build lists and are appalled to see Nob Bikers or Lash, you get it anywhere, but crying cheese because you won is not the right thing to do, they should go away from the game and analyze why they lost and what their weaknesses were, not how hard your list was, as Lash is by no means unbeatable and the fact that I only have 30 models in my army means i get swamped by Orks, i know these weaknesses and do my best to avoid being caught out by them.

After reading various threads specifically about what occurred at this particular RTT (Jax is my home town and I still keep up with what's going on there), I think there are some underlying issues that may correlate why the army was called cheesy.

Was every model you used WYSIWYG? Was every Nob clearly modeled differently as you armed each one differently to take advantage of the complex unit rule. Did you use any models that were a proxy in the army IE: Snikrot and Kommandos or a Warboss that wasn't actually in Mega Armor. Were your vehicles modelled with the proper equipment (IE Boarding Plank, reinforced rams etc...).

Was the army fully painted? It may sound trivial, but folks who show up to a tourney with a plastic colored army and it is min/maxed can draw other people's ire.

When one looks on the table at an army, it makes for a more enjoyable experience for both parties when they can easily tell what they are facing. It can be quite annoying when you look down and really aren't sure what model has what.

If these types of things occur during a game, these can compound a person's feeling towards your army. This can be especially true if it is the first time you show up at a location for a tourney.

Personally, I don't believe in cheese. If the list is legal, then it's fine. But, I'd be more critical when I score sportsmanship and army comp if someone showed up with a non WYSIWYG, non painted army.

Just remember, an RTT is a very different tourney than Ard Boyz where sportsmanship, army comp and painting are a non factor. Always be mindful about the tourney rules before entering. Hopefully, you'll have better luck next time.

I couldn't agree more with you 99MDeery, those are the words of a mature gamer who also has a lot of experience under his belt.

When playing with buddies, I often bring fun lists, or fluff oriented lists just for laughs. But the most fun games I have ever played are against skilled generals using their hardest list, vs my hardest list in a competetive enviornment such as a league or tourny.

Its all a matter of attitude. You can't control what other people bring and so long as the list is legal then he is fine to bring it. As Deery said, if someone starts bitching right away, you know the game is going to suck. If the other guy gets fired up at a challenge, you know you are in for a very engaging and challenging game.

@focusedfire
that is a cool idea I think, but it would be weird a bit as I wouldn't like the idea of someone else using my models!

Reecius wrote:I couldn't agree more with you 99MDeery, those are the words of a mature gamer who also has a lot of experience under his belt.

When playing with buddies, I often bring fun lists, or fluff oriented lists just for laughs. But the most fun games I have ever played are against skilled generals using their hardest list, vs my hardest list in a competetive enviornment such as a league or tourny.

Its all a matter of attitude. You can't control what other people bring and so long as the list is legal then he is fine to bring it. As Deery said, if someone starts bitching right away, you know the game is going to suck. If the other guy gets fired up at a challenge, you know you are in for a very engaging and challenging game.

@focusedfire
that is a cool idea I think, but it would be weird a bit as I wouldn't like the idea of someone else using my models!

thanks man I agree with you fully, just after xmas i was round a mates having a game, on the other table everyone was whooping and shouting over my mates orks destroying anothers sisters army, but me and the other guy were very quiet (something they commented on several times) but i had one of the most fun games ever because it was challenging for the both of us and the game was always on a knife edge waiting for a mistake to be exploited (it was my Marines vs Guard) and despite the fact of the two armies involved the game swung both ways until the end from a couple of crappy rolls and a few good shots the guard won 3 - 2, i couldn't care that i lost because it was massive amounts of fun.

Same thing a few days ago, a guy that frequents another store rang up and asked if their was any GT players as he was looking for some practice for the finals in a months or so time, that asked me to play and i told they guy i was using lash and he said fine game on, he came down with his daemons and it was a blast, the game ended in a draw but it went right down to turn 7 for him to force that draw out of me, I would gladly play him again, it was like a GT game as i didnt know they guy from adam and we just played our lists and had fun, he even didn't mind explaining most of the daemon rules as it was the 3rd time i'd played against them.

Maybe its just me, i've been playing 40k since the grand old days of second ed so my viewpoint is slightly tainted i just dont think cheese exists, its just bad play or exploiting your opponents weaknesses in full, I mean if you think the special characters are cheese now, Abaddon is not as good as he was back then, he's tame today, same with most of the other SC you see knocking about that have survived all the way through until 5th ed.

Anyway I sound like HBMC and i apologize for the rant, it just really gets my back up when i hear people complain about crap like this with no good god damn reason.

99MDeery wrote:
Maybe its just me, i've been playing 40k since the grand old days of second ed so my viewpoint is slightly tainted i just dont think cheese exists, its just bad play or exploiting your opponents weaknesses in full, I mean if you think the special characters are cheese now, Abaddon is not as good as he was back then, he's tame today, same with most of the other SC you see knocking about that have survived all the way through until 5th ed.

Hear hear. I remember when I first got into the game, at the tail end of 2nd Edition, and my buddy regularly fielded a character who essentially won the game by himself (some sort of Slaaneshi Chaos Lord, IIRC).

I actually like and hope to see the current GW trend continue, where HQ characters really lead and influence how your army is played.

Sarigar:

My army was fully painted, and everything was WYSIWYG except for my warboss, who was in mega-armor without it being represented. I made a point of pointing it out before each game though, just in case.

The cries of "cheese" started my second game. I was playing against a terminator army, and he had...very few models. A squad of space marines next to a blob of terminators, and a squad of scouts halfway down his deployment zone sitting on an objective. The terminators were REALLY nasty. All powerweapons, fists, lightning klaws...led by a terminator captain or something - it was freakish. They were in cover too, so no matter how I assaulted them, my orks would all die before getting any swings off.

Ghazghkull broke off from the nobs, declared a Waaugh! and assaulted the terminators alone. Powerweapons don't mean much against a 2+ invulnerable.

The nobs assaulted his space marine, and the rest of my army...didn't do much. Got shot up and was running and stuff.

Ghazghkull with 7 powerklaw attacks and a 2+ invulnerable....he ate some terminators for lunch. That's when the "cheese" calls started coming in, starting with him. He complained to the judge, who looked at him kind of incredulously and shook his head.


I mean...I'm mainly Tau; I play Orks when my wife isn't playing. I have 3 special characters and to be honest, they all suck. Half of what they can do doesn't even apply in 5th edition anymore, and half of the remainder of what they can do is so overwhelmed by negative trade-offs (Being able to use an ethereal's leadership in line of sight is mildly useful, but compared to having your ENTIRE ARMY RUN OFF THE BOARD IF HE DIES, its not worth having.

Its so nice to have useful characters.

To try and get this post back on track, (as it is in the tactics section) what army-list and tactics would everybody use to try to defeat such an Ork army? Dashofpepper, how would you fight this list with your Tau? You said that the orks are your wife's, have you ever played against her when she was using this list?

Sorry to derail again Peturbo, but I had to chime in on the 2nd ed Hero Hammer.

I started playing when 2nd ed first came out, and good god, the special characters back then were stupid. Bloodthirster had almost straight 10's for stats. The Deathjester (who no longer exists sadly, coolest character in the game for my money) was death on wheels, they guy could kill nearly anything (and for those who don't know, he was a harlequin character).

I used an inquisitor in termie armor that could kill ANYTHING in the game with one psychic power, no saves of any sort allowed. That was when termie armor was a 3+ on TWO dice. Plus, after that you got a 3+ invul save. It was stupid. The special characters now are nothing compared to then, but the game is far better now.

Anyway, back on track,

To beat the orks ever, the game is hugely dependent on set up and manuevre. Target priority for me is fast movers and trasports, lootas, then everything else.

Its easier said than done, as it always is, but you just need to play smart, keep out of charge radius and stick to your targeting. you have to set up smart and you will win, dice willing.

Tau have it good as they are mobile and shoot like mad. Vs. Horde orks you drop pie on them and JSJ as you always do. Against Nob Bikers you spam broadsides as Centurian suggested in another thread, and use pathfinders.

Orks are beatable, for sure, they are just really good right now.

Dashofpepper wrote:Sarigar:

The terminators were REALLY nasty. All powerweapons, fists, lightning klaws...led by a terminator captain or something - it was freakish. They were in cover too

Ghazghkull broke off from the nobs, declared a Waaugh! and assaulted the terminators alone. Powerweapons don't mean much against a 2+ invulnerable.

Ghazghkull with 7 powerklaw attacks and a 2+ invulnerable....he ate some terminators for lunch.

Its so nice to have useful characters.

Seems to me, "useful" isn't a strong enough word for a single character running off on his own and decimating an entire terminator assault squad well-embedded in terrain with a captain or possibly a character in the squad.

At that point, when the main strength of his army is removed by a single one of your guys, there's very little skill involved in the game.

Why has cheese turned into this:

"Nothings cheesey if its legal"
"I don't think its cheesey if its legal"
"It CANT be cheesey, he just used his army book"

Cheesey has never, and will never, implied illegality in a list.

Thats called cheating. A very different word, universally un-accepted in the gaming community.

CHEESY means something different to everyone, however it never means "illegal" or even implied illegality.

The most general definition is, if it:

1) Makes the game very skewed in your favor no matter what you face

2) "Abuses" a codex to make lists that by most peoples minds weren't intended

3) Makes the game less fun for your opponent, and not in a "God, I have to play the reigning chess champ!" sort of sense, more like the "God, that guy is allowed to use 4 queens when I only get one!" sort of way.

4) Is just another powerbuild that the guy obviously ripped off the internet to play.

And would everyone here stop getting a hard-on for mauleed and fantasy players. Trust me, their scene is absolutely no different than 40k.

Mauleed is generally either loved or hated, because he's a big proponent of trying as hard as he can to earn 0-1 comp. Some thing thats great, you're railing against comp. Some people just have absolutely no fun playing his stank list is the downside, and thats not the best for the hobby all the time. (And yes, I've played him, and no, I don't mind it)

Their players whine constantly about double slann, about stank armies, about fateweaver armies, about flamers, about ASF on high elves, etc etc. Its the exact same thing we see in 40k, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. It's still just grass.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Sarigar:

The terminators were REALLY nasty. All powerweapons, fists, lightning klaws...led by a terminator captain or something - it was freakish. They were in cover too

Ghazghkull broke off from the nobs, declared a Waaugh! and assaulted the terminators alone. Powerweapons don't mean much against a 2+ invulnerable.

Ghazghkull with 7 powerklaw attacks and a 2+ invulnerable....he ate some terminators for lunch.

Its so nice to have useful characters.

Seems to me, "useful" isn't a strong enough word for a single character running off on his own and decimating an entire terminator assault squad well-embedded in terrain with a captain or possibly a character in the squad.

At that point, when the main strength of his army is removed by a single one of your guys, there's very little skill involved in the game.

However, the assault termie squad sitting in cover that no other unit of his could possibly handle was just fine...

Slugga boyz handle assault terminators just fine. Probably too good for their points, actually.