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Please close this thread at your leisure - voting has gone on long enough and I'm amply satisfied that I've gotten a wide sampling of opinions.

Imo not cheese, Ghaz is great but he's not fearless and he is killable on his WAAAGH turn. Since you didn't use him with Snikrot (did that loophole close or was it really ever there?) but with reg boyz in a trukk. Sound like they just didn't know how to deal with your list.

Just remeber your not running duel nob bikers with grots as your other troops, or lash....

The ork codex is made out of cheese.

Casper wrote:Imo not cheese, Ghaz is great but he's not fearless and he is killable on his WAAAGH turn. Since you didn't use him with Snikrot (did that loophole close or was it really ever there?) but with reg boyz in a trukk. Sound like they just didn't know how to deal with your list.

Just remeber your not running duel nob bikers with grots as your other troops, or lash....

Ghazghkull is killable, but its *hard* to kill him during his Waaaugh! turn because his 2+ armor goes to 2+ invulnerable. There was only one game during the RTT where he shined, and it happened like this:

My opponent had a terminator list; a squad of scouts, one space marine squad and a bunch of terminators along with an HQ terminator guy or something. He deployed his space marines next to his terminators. I got to go first. Turn 1, Ghazghkull and nobs (and everything else) zoomed up the board. His turn, he blew up my trukks, and my one of my other trukk boyz squads (3-4 left) run away. My turn 2, Ghazghkull detatched from the nobs, moved 2D6 towards his terminators and the Nobs went after his space marines. Those termies were scary: All power weapons, a few power fists, storm shields, other craziness: Any unit I assaulted them with would have died, AND they were in cover.

Ghazghkull waaughed and assaulted the terminators alone. The nobs went after his space marines. Ghazghkull minced up some terminators, the Nobs ate the space marines, and for turn 3, he had terminators (locked in combat) and his scout squad left alive, but they were on the other side of the board. Assault phase I killed a couple more terminators, then on my turn, my Nobs jumped into the assault, but most of his stuff was dead. Right about then is when the cries of cheese started.

You mentioned using Ghazghkull with Snikrot and something about a loophole....what is that? Deploying Ghazghkull with Kommandos? Something weird? Something else?

I dont see how that would be any worse than the hordes of low point 'zilla players.

Cheese, that is the rallying cry of the cry baby, I swear.

If they say you don't understand the hobby, what they mean is you don't understand their interpretation of the hobby and wont play the game the way they want to play it and therefore you are bad.

Tell them to grow up and stop being a bunch of girlymen. Everyone is entitled to play the game they want to, and if a list is legal per the codex then its ok to use.

Anyone who tells you you shouldn't bring x, y, z arbitrarily without codex support is cheating. They are making up rules to suit themselves. That is cheese.

Dashofpepper wrote:
You mentioned using Ghazghkull with Snikrot and something about a loophole....what is that? Deploying Ghazghkull with Kommandos? Something weird? Something else?

Well there is this school of thought that since Snikrot's Amubsh ability would not be lost if an IC joined the unit (as it technically isn't infiltrate). Bascially people believed you could hold snikront in reserve (for ambush) and then attach Ghaz w/Snikront and 15 kommandos. When you pass reserves he comes in on any table edge and boom theres Ghaz on your backline, waaghing and krumping whatever else he wanted (after he deattacked form kommandos cuz he's slow).

Thats what I was referencing - its more of a YMDC argument that shouldn't be started again. I have both Ghaz and Sinkrot and never have tried this (It reaks of imo).

I think you are asking the wrong question; cheesy or not will never lead to any type of consensus. Rather, would folks lower your army comp score at an RTT.

What you seem to have left out of this list is that your Nob unit was also all differently equipped to take advantage of the multi wound model wound allocation rules. This is an area, while perfectly legal, can rub folks the wrong way- whether rightfully or not is immaterial. Also, bringing Ghazkgull to a 1300 point RTT is another point of contention which appears to also have been the case.

Personally, take whatever you want as long as the list is legal. However, what appears to the real problem is that you suffered hits to army comp on what people called a cheesy list. Army comp is a subjective score in which you need to be familiar with the area in which you are playing. What is considered a good solid army in one area may be considered a cheesy WAAC army at another.

For RTT's, it is fairly common to earn points on the following

win/loss/tie
army composition (subjective)
army appearance (subjective)
sportsmanship (subjective)

It never hurts to check with a tourney organizer before a tourney to see how the breakdown of each category will be.

Having played an RTT where you had this issue, I don't think they play hard lists in general. Typical powerlists (Nob Bikers/Dual Lash Plague Marine spam for example) will probably garner lower army comp scores at that location.

But, to be fair, this just doesn't happen at that one store only; it's something I've encountered at various tourneys all over the U.S. Good luck in the future.

Charlie

I always say that cheese and whine go well together.

People who think ANYTHING is cheesy are certain to bring the whine.

There is no cheese. There are only whiny players.

Centurian99 wrote:There is no cheese. There are only whiny players.

I SECOND THAT 100%!

Tell them to quit F'N crying!

They can't make lists to counter Ghaz or Snikrot?

Time to find a new gaming group.

There is no cheese. There are only whiny players.

Thank you centurian! God, I hate the whining. If you can't beat a list, be an adult and instead of throwing a temper tantrum, use your brain to come up with a counter.

It's a tough list, but not borken. Two good HQs, a tough elite unit, and a bunch of crunchy ork trukks and small mobs - that's not cheese.

Well, it's important to remember that most Dakkites are pretty seasoned tournament gamers, and so they tend to have different notions of both what is cheese and if cheese is bad (or even if it can exist at all).

That's not the nastiest 1300pt lists possible, but 1300 is a weird point level, and if it was on 4x4 tables and you had some good draws you could clean up with a list like that in an environment without a lot of really hard lists.

The part that sticks in my craw is the allegation that you don't understand the hobby. What they meant was that you didn't understand how they played 40k, and there's nothing wrong with having a sort of unwritten code about stuff like that. It may lead to you having to stop gaming there, but you can't make them accept your tactics.

In short, while I don't think it was cheesy, I think people that don't like to face anything more challenging than a battleforce army would feel free to call it cheese, especially if it wins. The real question is if you want to put up with their comments, tone down your lists, or find new players.

What ever happened to the Dakka Motto: "Play Better Next Time"?

When I lose, I figure I just screwed up somewhere.

Iorek wrote:What ever happened to the Dakka Motto: "Play Better Next Time"?

When I lose, I figure I just screwed up somewhere.

Along with, "read more, post less..."

I miss mauleed...

There is no cheese iff (if and only if) 40K is a well balanced game. It is possible for a game to be in an imbalanced state, therefore giving certain forces/armies a distinct advantage.

So if you truly think 40K is always a balanced game even when codicies are of different ages and written for different versions of the core rules - then the "no cheese" claim may have merit.

I tend to believe that the designers of the game aren't that skilled to have balance across 10 years of codices and 3 versions of the rules.

YMMV

willydstyle wrote:The ork codex is made out of cheese.

QFT

Democratus wrote:There is no cheese iff (if and only if) 40K is a well balanced game. It is possible for a game to be in an imbalanced state, therefore giving certain forces/armies a distinct advantage.

So if you truly think 40K is always a balanced game even when codicies are of different ages and written for different versions of the core rules - then the "no cheese" claim may have merit.

I tend to believe that the designers of the game aren't that skilled to have balance across 10 years of codices and 3 versions of the rules.

YMMV

Nob Bikers being a good example.

Nob Bikers are over-rated.

As I am told I am on old timer with outdated views, take this with a grain of salt. Also, i do not speak for all old timers, just myself. (And so much for customer loyalty being valued.)

Once upon a time special characters were, well, special. You would have to ask your opponents permission to use them. Some would argue was because they were very overpowered, but i don't see them being any less or more powerful now as they were. The limited use was designed to keep them SPECIAL, used for special games and for special occasions, not everyday use. Gazkull doesn't show up to every little waaag, he runs them, big ones. Abbadon is not personally involved with every single chaos attack. Vulcan does not protect every single imperial citizen at the same time.

I have 2 questions for you:

1; if you were to play against another ork player who also had Gazkull and Snikrot, what would you do? there is only one of each, as they are unique individuals. Would you roll off to see who got to use which? (that only seams fair to me).

2; What if you took out the special characters from your list and played with regular HQ choices? Would your opponents still call cheese? (could you still win?) If they ceased, then you know that they only have a distaste for special characters in everyday use. If they persist, well then they're lame and probable just sore losers, validating/redeeming you.

willydstyle wrote:The ork codex is made out of cheese.

That would be why it's so tasty...

Iorek wrote:What ever happened to the Dakka Motto: "Play Better Next Time"?

We need new generation of Dakka Tough Guys, I guess.

Centurian99 wrote:Along with, "read more, post less..."

I miss mauleed...

As should we all.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:As I am told I am on old timer with outdated views, take this with a grain of salt. Also, i do not speak for all old timers, just myself. (And so much for customer loyalty being valued.)

Once upon a time special characters were, well, special. You would have to ask your opponents permission to use them. Some would argue was because they were very overpowered, but i don't see them being any less or more powerful now as they were. The limited use was designed to keep them SPECIAL, used for special games and for special occasions, not everyday use. Gazkull doesn't show up to every little waaag, he runs them, big ones. Abbadon is not personally involved with every single chaos attack. Vulcan does not protect every single imperial citizen at the same time.

I have 2 questions for you:

1; if you were to play against another ork player who also had Gazkull and Snikrot, what would you do? there is only one of each, as they are unique individuals. Would you roll off to see who got to use which? (that only seams fair to me).

2; What if you took out the special characters from your list and played with regular HQ choices? Would your opponents still call cheese? (could you still win?) If they ceased, then you know that they only have a distaste for special characters in everyday use. If they persist, well then they're lame and probable just sore losers, validating/redeeming you.

I also started 40k back in those days, the problem is that GW have made the codex's more Special Character centric, especially in a tournament setting for example i can take Ghazgkull or a Warboss in a tournament setting i would take Ghazgkull purely so that i know that when i Waaagh i am guaranteed 6inch run moves so my orks can hit units comfortably and not have to leave things down to chance, etc same thing applies for Vulkan or any of them.

On Topic, the list isn't cheesy its just a strong Ork build in a tournament setting, if they whine then they clearly don't understand the meaning of a tournament (I got whined at in a 1000pt tournament in my local store because i bought Shrike and 2 Vindicators and won, however if i hadn't have won would the army list still have been called cheesy, in some respects yes and in some no).

Really just ignore them and don't concern yourself with it and by saying you don't understand the hobby shows how they are just annoyed that you won and they didn't and are trying to justify their viewpoint by picking on you for playing an army to its potential instead of taking things like Flashgitz (which lets face it are crap).

I was lucky when I started 40k, it was at a store with a league going on at a low point level. This allowed me to play a great many games quickly and partly due to this and partly due to my predisposition to adapt quickly I progressed quickly through the learning curve of the game.
One thing I have noticed though, is that those who're lower in the learning curve either lack the experience to adapt to the tactical and list building changes necessary to win or simply lack the desire to do so, even to the point of digging their heels in to avoid it.
And in my experience, it's been roughly 80% of the players I've found that cry cheese are amongst this group...

Well, the vast majority of everyone thus far doesn't side with the cheese factory, so I'm glad. I don't want to have an army list that people don't want to play against because its unfun - but I want to be competitive and win.

Centurian99 wrote:

Iorek wrote:What ever happened to the Dakka Motto: "Play Better Next Time"?

When I lose, I figure I just screwed up somewhere.

Along with, "read more, post less..."

I miss mauleed...

It was - "Next time play better." Ed's doing the Fantasy scene with the Warmongers...boy I miss that guy.

nikeforever22 wrote:It was - "Next time play better." Ed's doing the Fantasy scene with the Warmongers...boy I miss that guy.

I think Ed realized there are fewer whiners in Fantasy.

I do find that more WHFB players are willing to go "wow, that's.. powerful. Well, let's play" instead of going "WTF!?! High Elves have ASF and it even works with their GW's?!?! OMG! Don't be TFG, and just play your Ogres".
I think it has more to do with the complexities of the movement phase in fantasy that forces a bit more brain power to pull anything fancy on your opponent so there's at least a hope you can outmaneuver your opponent and overcome their "cheese"

themandudeperson wrote:I do find that more WHFB players are willing to go "wow, that's.. powerful. Well, let's play" instead of going "WTF!?! High Elves have ASF and it even works with their GW's?!?! OMG! Don't be TFG, and just play your Ogres".
I think it has more to do with the complexities of the movement phase in fantasy that forces a bit more brain power to pull anything fancy on your opponent so there's at least a hope you can outmaneuver your opponent and overcome their "cheese"

Okay, I have to completely agree.

The reason that cheese in 40k generally is more annoying than cheese in fantasy is the whole movement and facing thing.

In fantasy, people can't shoot backwards. In 40k, shoot every direction max range, etc.

In fantasy, getting charged from behind can destroy even a super unit. In 40k, no.

In fantasy, charging makes you strike first. In 40k, you charge a unit of genestealers with something, and they attack you first. That puts the importance on the squad, not on the movement or the charging or strategic things.

It'd be interesting if someone made a fantasy-like ruleset for 40k with changes like these, just to see how it'd compare on fun.