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Recasting is one massive grey area

though personally I would say it's ok as long as YOU HAVE ZERO INENTION of EVER selling them, like i'm doing tracked heavy weapons for my gaurd, i'm thinking of casting up cyclops tracks for the sides and custom sculpting where the weapon will sit. I'm still going to have to buy some of the cyclops vehicles, just not as many as I would of. If there were no cyclops vehicles i'd have to commision somebody to make the tracks but since there are i'm buying some of them.

net gain goes to GW/FW as i'm buying more from them than I was intending to

casting whole models/sprues successfully without professional equipment is so hard. Most of the time, you're better off buying the model than having like 5 miscast ones and wasting time. I cast bits to use, mostly just helmets and backpacks and such, but not whole models, and i would never think of selling them.

I think it's fine to do with lost pieces or broken pieces that need to be replaced, it would be ridiculous to have to buy another box set just to replace a few pieces that are lost/broken.

NEVER

Sorry,but I hate knock-offs in all shapes and sizes.

I deal in absolutes,and there is no "Buts".

Please don't play the thread necromancy card.

Honestly, it feels like theres a line between what is legal and what we would do. I think any recast is technically illegal (tho I dont have laws to back me up) but I think that certain recasting would be ok. Especially on items that GW doesnt sell on it's own. But thats more opinion than anything...

Yay necro *RISE MY LEGIONS RISE*

*ahem*

I think its more justified as the cost is going up and you need some bitz that you cannot get otherwise (special weapons like blasters and stuff)

i got to check out one of the recasts this weekend. HORRIBLE! half the librarian's face was missing! i really hope they fix this problem.....

Never sellable, and only if its recast properly, so when you walk into GW they dont go GOTCHA BIATCH!

Reproducing someone elses copywrited intellectual property or miniature is illegal, straight up.

If you scuplted it yourself, by all means cast away! If not, do what you want but be prepared to face the legal concequences if you try to profit from it.

I re-cast some times, especially now because GW prices are extortionate , (26 quid for a tactical squad???) and for me personally the hobby is more about painting rather than playing so the value instantly drops in my opinion, But I would never sell them, you could probably get sniped by the head of GW for that

Hello Necro Thread! Well, while I'm here anyway, I'd like to make some points that have not thusfar been made (or been made clearly, imo).

Myth 1: Recasting is illegal
In Russia it's completely legal. In the United States, it is situationally legal, depending. In other regions... who knows? I don't. And, neither do you, probably.

Myth 2: Copyright Infringment is stealing
This is a myth that is heavily pushed by the record companies. Unfortunately for them, they have tried and failed with this argument in court. Copyright infringement is akin to stealing as a wolf is akin to a beagle, or a cupcake is akin to a muffin. Just because they share some superficially similar traits does not make them the same.

Myth 3: Games Workshop's legal page is a good guide to your rights
GWS naturally overreaches as far as possible, which you'd expect. They assert rights far in excess of what they generally have.

Myth 4: When you recast, you deprive GWS of revenue
Depends. Lets say you recast part of a Rhino to make into scenery. If you could not recast it - would you have bought a entire Rhino to cut up into scenery? If the answer to this is "no", you did not deprive GWS of income. Look at your MP3 collection. I'm guessing you might have a song or two you didn't buy. If you could not download a copy of "Who let the dogs out", would you have bought it... or would you have done without?

Myth 5: Recasting is illegal in my locality, but I'm not selling what I recast, so it's not wrong to do it
Don't kid yourself. What you can legally do, and what is morally OK and not strictly the same. If you recast some bits and paint them up and don't tell anyone, you probably won't suffer any consequences... but integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking (under the paint).

Myth 6: Threads on recasting make good topics for discussion on the internet
Unfortunately, recasting law is complex and mostly grey areas. The interwebs lend themselves well to bombast and hyperbole, not well-reasoned arguments.


As for my personal opinion? I think it's OK for personal use on OOP items, or bits you own that you've lost or broken (i.e. a small piece of Rhino tread)

Lets get this straight:

1. If the item that you are casting has not been altered or remade in any way, then you lay yourself very open to repercussions.

2. If it is entirely original, then you can do what you want.

3. If it is an original sculpt of a GW part, then it can be argued that it is your original property. For example, if you sculpt a meltagun, which is allowed by GW, then cast it, then, I see no legal reason for the casting of your sculpt to be wrong.

4. Modifying a GW part is okay. For example, creating a Space Marine Helmet with a custom GS insignia on the forehead. However, the casting of this is a grey area for this reason: You are casting a GW product with a bit of original work added on top. There is no problem with your GS work being casted, but the helmet on the bottom is not okay to recast. So it is probably much safer to either sculpt your own helmet in it's entirety or just cast the Insignia.

There are other more specific grey areas etc. but it is usually best to deal with them as they come up.

Just a thought, but how many people would be okay with this if we weren't talking about GW? I mean, lets say we're discussing a mom and pop miniatures company and recasting will actually hurt their bottom line? Is that okay? I think someone did mention they've had this happen to them.

My opinion, no, its not okay. Yeah, GW charges a lot for little pieces of plastic. I don't think anyone gets into this hobby without knowing that. And whether or not it is actually illegal to recast minis (frankly I'm with Redbeard on that issue), there's something that needs to be addressed. GW's legal claim that you cannot copy their miniatures can also be interpreted as them asking you not to. I think this is a simple matter of curtousy. They've sold these products to you on the assumption of what you're going to do with them. If they knew you planned to recast them, they wouldn't sell the product to you. Whether you give a damn or not about the legality involved, I just see it as the decent thing not to. The fact that GW will throw people out of their stores for recasts clearly means they don't want people doing it, and I should think its polite simply not to do so.

Yeah, we can say the hell with it to the legailty of it and just go for anarchy. But its my feeling that we should respect the wishes of GW's staff, seeing as they are the ones who created the models in the first place.

The thing is, with some fleet based games (dystopian wars is a good example) you can buy a starter pack, and then simply recast entire fleets from that first fleet. Some games are more vulnerable to this than most.
I don't care if copyright law is fuzzy about this, this is way different to downloading music or movies online. Music and movies - you only *need* one copy per person, sure a few would copy for car, ipod, PC and a few other places for convenience and ease of access, but that's within reason, the music company wouldn't expect you to buy three or four copies of the disc, one for each location. With wargaming armies however, half the point is that you collect more and more. Recasting, however small, is costing some people the money you should have given them. Even with OOP miniatures, you might prefer those models, but you're still depriving the company of their money by building an army but not paying them money. And sure, it may cost a lot of money to do it legit. But you knew that the second you got into the hobby, didn't you?

@ GoldenKaos
I'm sorry, but recasting is in no way different to music copying, no matter the subject matter you end up with more than what you pay for.

That being said i doubt the two sides of this argument will ever agree on any compromise.


Follow up question:
Under IP laws sculpting your own space marine is pretty much the same as recasting a GW one, so how come that's considered ok in wargaming circles.
I mean, the law is the law... right?

HoverBoy wrote:@ GoldenKaos
I'm sorry, but recasting is in no way different to music copying, no matter the subject matter you end up with more than what you pay for.

Legally, there might not be any difference, but there is in practical terms. With music, you are unlikely to build a playlist of the same song, copied over and over. With the hobby, it would be very beneficial to build an army of the same models, copied over and over. The point of copying music is usually to spread it to other people, which would be illegal. Recasting allows copying miniatures in a way that can benefit one person greatly, as well as the option to spread it to other people. You are unlikely to want several copies of music for yourself (excepting the obvious case of backing up files), this is not true for miniatures.
So, if we continue with this music copying - recasting comparison, sure, in both cases they're illegal and in both cases you end up with more than what you pay for, but the benefits of an individual owning several copies is far greater for models than for music. When you collect music, you don't buy what you already have, but you certainly do so when you collect miniature armies!

So basucally, it's different cuz you say so.

PS: Still no answer to my question

I recast parts which I have either: a) extensively converted before recasting, b) are individual parts which would be stupid to buy a $40 model for a single weapon I need 50 of, or c) are OOP.

I support the recasting if :

1- its for duplacating OOP models

2- making duplicates of bitz you need but only comes in very small numbers per boxes

3- making a metal part or metal model plastic (I hate metal models)

I support recasting, and would probably do some if i had time or the know how to make a platic similar to GW's, for players like me who dont play at tournements but simply between friends at our respective houses.

I don't have a problem with it, as I intimated in the thread for the poll on finecast. Had two [MOD]'s come in quick and make air about dakka dakka not condoning it in reply suggesting that that was the reason recasting was not an option in that poll. Guess that is a resent policy change.

Alpharius wrote:

laestli wrote:Unfortunately the poll does not include a "cast models from ones I already own" so I could not vote. For me the cost of Finecast is so completely out of proportion to the quality as to be ridiculous.

Dakka Dakka does not, of course, endorse such measures. At all.

Kilkrazy wrote:

laestli wrote:Unfortunately the poll does not include a "cast models from ones I already own" so I could not vote. For me the cost of Finecast is so completely out of proportion to the quality as to be ridiculous.

That's because it is against forum rules to promote recasting.

Phototoxin wrote:I think its more justified as the cost is going up and you need some bitz that you cannot get otherwise (special weapons like blasters and stuff)

So because gas costs are mildly outrageous, I should fill up and leave instead of paying for it?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how people are still trying to justify this. If you sculpt your own model, then you should have every right to recast it. But if you start recasting melta guns for example then you're breaking the law. That is fact. It doesn't matter how much it costs. Theft is theft. The law is the law.

Why is this conversation continuing?

It's yours = LEGAL

It's not yours = ILLEGAL

Stealing but not reselling is still denying the makers their profits. I hate GW as much as the next guy, but the vast majority of their workers aren't demons. They need money too.

Quick question, what happened to making do with what you have? Maybe improvising something and creating a new conversion? I made a plasma gun with two plasma pistols and a flamer and it looks damn fine. Where's the ingenuity we as modelers and painters are supposed to have?

Rico...

I personally feel that recasting is perfectly acceptable so long as you don't intend to sell the models, or give them away. Recasting sprues is a great way to give yourself more bits, and allow more customization of your army without having to buy a whole new box just for that *one* weapon you may need.

I honestly don't think it hurts GW sales, either.. because if you're willing to go through all the extra trouble of recasting a sprue/model just to save on some money, chances are you wouldn't have spent that money on the models anways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze says it brilliantly: Myth 4: When you recast, you deprive GWS of revenue
Depends. Lets say you recast part of a Rhino to make into scenery. If you could not recast it - would you have bought a entire Rhino to cut up into scenery? If the answer to this is "no", you did not deprive GWS of income. Look at your MP3 collection. I'm guessing you might have a song or two you didn't buy. If you could not download a copy of "Who let the dogs out", would you have bought it... or would you have done without?

I Chose other.

Only because of the price/usefullness ratio to some models.
Take the average guardsman. 10 cost $22. Then 10 eldar costs the same. yet the eldar are better than the guardsman.

So if it for something overpriced, and is personally made and for personal use only.

gak thought it was about re-rolling to cast spells

I have bugger all against people recasting small parts, because it would be silly to buy a whole box of chaos marines just for that one head with those spikes, or that one shoulder pad.

The way I see it, if you don't buy the box again for that one part, you'll probably buy something else from GW somewhere down the line, thus is gamer logic.

I think the main thing is, as long as you don't get caught, no one will ever know the difference, and never needs to.

as long as they aren't re-sold, I say anything goes...if I had the capabilites to do so, I'd make entire armies and use them without feeling a shred of guilt

Rico wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:I think its more justified as the cost is going up and you need some bitz that you cannot get otherwise (special weapons like blasters and stuff)

So because gas costs are mildly outrageous, I should fill up and leave instead of paying for it?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how people are still trying to justify this. If you sculpt your own model, then you should have every right to recast it. But if you start recasting melta guns for example then you're breaking the law. That is fact. It doesn't matter how much it costs. Theft is theft. The law is the law.

Why is this conversation continuing?

It's yours = LEGAL

It's not yours = ILLEGAL

Stealing but not reselling is still denying the makers their profits. I hate GW as much as the next guy, but the vast majority of their workers aren't demons. They need money too.

Quick question, what happened to making do with what you have? Maybe improvising something and creating a new conversion? I made a plasma gun with two plasma pistols and a flamer and it looks damn fine. Where's the ingenuity we as modelers and painters are supposed to have?

Rico...

See the problem with that is that even if you sculpt your own model it is still illegal in the eyes of GW (and to some extent the law) to cast it because even though its your custom sculpt its their IP unless you never use that recast in a GW game and make sure not to copy ANY things that would be owned by GW llike insignias and weapons and such. On their terms GW allow one off conversions and sculpts but recasting those for your own use is not allowed.

Rico wrote:

So because gas costs are mildly outrageous, I should fill up and leave instead of paying for it?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how people are still trying to justify this. If you sculpt your own model, then you should have every right to recast it. But if you start recasting melta guns for example then you're breaking the law. That is fact. It doesn't matter how much it costs. Theft is theft. The law is the law.

Why is this conversation continuing?

It's yours = LEGAL

It's not yours = ILLEGAL

Stealing but not reselling is still denying the makers their profits. I hate GW as much as the next guy, but the vast majority of their workers aren't demons. They need money too.

Quick question, what happened to making do with what you have? Maybe improvising something and creating a new conversion? I made a plasma gun with two plasma pistols and a flamer and it looks damn fine. Where's the ingenuity we as modelers and painters are supposed to have?

Rico...

No wonder some people are so unreasonable about this. This is the most inflexible nonsense I've ever heard.

IP is the biggest load of gak argument I've ever heard. You can't just equate something to stealing to make it so. CHEWING BUBBLE GUM IS STEALING!!!

Twisted logic, bra.

http://youtu.be/D6_ZqPcNemI

I think it's okay as long as the item in question is difficult to come by, OOP, is not for sale individually and is not sold on, with the exception that if the item has been changed or converted in some way, e.g selling on a boltgun which has added detail, different magazine type, lengthened barrel and a greenstuff strap.
it's completely legal selling on your converted miniatures, so why should it be illegal selling on your converted miniatures that have been recasted?