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elite_dannux wrote:
There is a big difference to shoplift a snickers in your example and to make a recast. A "recasted" snickers would be i a bought a whole new kitchen and chocolade/peanuts just to make myself a snickers at home. And is that illegal? To make a copy of a candybar? I have a really hard time to belive that.

Try copying it and selling it, and you'll see how quickly you go to court.

Is it ok to shoplift a unit box from a store? Of course not. Is it ok to make a copy of a model (no matter the way)? Yes it is.

Actually, no it isn't, it's illegal. You're unlikely to be prosecuted, but it is illegal. In my book, that means it is not ok.

And you still havent aswered the question where the difference in recasting/sculpting in greenstuff/builing in plasticard are. For all reasons your coping a model.

That's because at that point it becomes a more complicated issue. Go to GW's legal page and read their stance about what you can and cannot do with their IP. You can make conversions - they say that. You can create any model you want if you do it yourself - again, this is something they allow you to do with their IP - they have waived that protected right. You cannot mold things. It says it right there in black and white. That's their right as the copyright holder.

What's the difference, you ask? The answer is that the owner of the copyright has graciously permitted you to sculpt your own copies of their IP (and they don't have to allow this...), and that they've explicitly said that you cannot cast anything based on their IP. They're the copyright holder, it is their right to make this distinction, and they have done so, drawing that line. That's the difference.

Redbeard wrote:

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:I don't understand what the problem with re-casting for personal use is. It's no different that uploading your CDs to MP3s for you ipod.

Yes it is. It's a lot different. First of all, unless you're somewhat psychotic, you don't listen to the same CD more than once at a time. There is no benefit to owning music, movies, or books more than once (for personal use).

On the other hand, if you make copies of models, you're gaining benefit from each additional model you have. There is a clear benefit to this.

I don't agree with you on this point: I see a HUGE benefit in hanging out with my tiny iPod when going to town, while the multiple, original CDs stay home, nestled in my hi-fi system, and some copies of them are in my car's CD player: I don't have to endlessly swap from portable CD player to car CD player to home CD player for the same music!

Redbeard wrote:On top of that, the law specifically allows you to make a digital backup copy of any media you own. It does not entitle you to make exact copies of copyrighted miniatures.

But for the legal part, I must admit you are right... As you mention later, GW entitles us with the right to convert and scratch-build, not cast!

So this is it, full stop.

I personally don't find recasting to be okay if you are going to be reproducing character minis or vehicles, but if you are going to be making bits that you need more of then I see that as fine. It is just the same as using green stuff or even using sculptors material to make another assault cannon, or the like.

@Redbeard:
I agree with you about 95%. I would never condone recasting in many cases, but as I said above if you are taking the time, effort and investment to recast smaller things that you need specifically I see it as making it on your own. Given your stance, would you consider someone making something out of greenstuff or sculpting clay to be stealing, despite the fact that GW makes some of these supplies readily available? Keep in mind that making a copy of various bitz or so is almost identical in principal to recasting since you are not making something original.

It's certainly ok for things you lose, after all, you bought them, you should be able to use them.

It's ok for individual pieces like meltaguns.

Furthermore, it is certainly ok to recast original works, even if it is based on other minis (like turning a guardsman into a traitor guardsman, you could recast that IMO)

The analogy of recopying CD for your convenience to recasting minis ( thats not your own work )

is like saying:

Having up credit cards is equal to counterfeiting money bills.

It is similar in many cases, copying a CD for personal use and casting a lost tank-tread are very similar, recasting individual pieces would be like creating a CD of all your favorite songs by many different artists, you still have to have the original, but it is much more convenient to put a bunch of songs on one CD than to just switch CDs whenever you wanna listen to something different, and recasting stuff you did yourself is like an artist printing CDs of his own work (which might take samples from others See: Every rap song ever)

GW allows you to sculpt, not recast.

I would make the distinction for OOP models.
Not limited edition mind you (That's a whole different kettle of fish).

99% of the time I would say illegal,
it's that 1% of grey area that we are talking about here.

I really dont give a damn what GW "allows" me to do with my property, if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can, so long as I dont bring them to a tourney that disallows that sort of thing, or sell them, there is nothing GW can do about it.

Canonness Rory wrote:if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can

*frowns

Canonness Rory wrote:I really dont give a damn what GW "allows" me to do with my property

No, they don't either. But they do care what you do with their property. The IP behind the physical miniature is not your property.

if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can, so long as I dont bring them to a tourney that disallows that sort of thing, or sell them, there is nothing GW can do about it.

If you want to hold up a convenience store, you can do that too, as long as you don't get caught. Not being caught does not make your actions legal.

Any chance of a new option lego mate?

Ok for re-casting small parts (weapons, heads etc etc) that you do not plan on selling.

For example; someone makes custom lasguns and then casts them for his/her guard.

But as for casting basic models, i'd say no, since your simply doing it to save having to spend alot of money.
The weapons are just to save time when making say 200 lasguns. (and maybe save a little sanity)

Redbeard wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:I really dont give a damn what GW "allows" me to do with my property

No, they don't either. But they do care what you do with their property. The IP behind the physical miniature is not your property.

if I want to make 1000 copies of one of the models I bought from them I can, so long as I dont bring them to a tourney that disallows that sort of thing, or sell them, there is nothing GW can do about it.

If you want to hold up a convenience store, you can do that too, as long as you don't get caught. Not being caught does not make your actions legal.

The difference is holding up a convenience store is illegal, and has victims, whereas casting toy soldiers is not, and does not. It bcomes illegal when you try to sell them. And even if it was illegal, that doesn't mean it is wrong. In islamic countries it is illegal or a woman to leave the house without her husband's permission, does that mean it is wrong?

Canonness Rory wrote:
The difference is holding up a convenience store is illegal, and has victims, whereas casting toy soldiers is not, and does not. It bcomes illegal when you try to sell them.

I suggest you research this before you post. It is illegal.

And even if it was illegal, that doesn't mean it is wrong. In islamic countries it is illegal or a woman to leave the house without her husband's permission, does that mean it is wrong?

You know, there was an entire other thread about this. You're espousing engaging in illegal activities. You can make whatever comparisons to whatever other laws you want in order to make yourself feel better, but you're stealing intellectual property that you don't have the right to take, and it is illegal.

I suggest you research this before you post. It is illegal.

Prove it.

You know, there was an entire other thread about this. You're espousing engaging in illegal activities. You can make whatever comparisons to whatever other laws you want in order to make yourself feel better, but you're stealing intellectual property that you don't have the right to take, and it is illegal.

You're the one comparing recasting army men to holding up a convenience store, and I am not stealing any property, intellectual or otherwise.

Great Unlclean One wrote:Never done it but I suppose it would be okay to make weapons like meltaguns that you can't buy individually, not anymore than that though, re-casting a whole model is too obvious and a bit more than just a gun.

I dunno. You can buy a 5 pack of meltaguns from GW, directly.

There are bit sites and ebay sites that sell meltaguns as well.

I have no problem with people doing this for personal use ONLY. Personally, I don't think it's worth the time to make the mold just to crank out a few meltaguns for personal use.

Which leads to selling self-molded bits, which I am 100% against (as a capitalist).

I'd say that it's alright for hard to find bitz, GW won't sell them anymore and the turret part for a razorback is really hard to come by yet endlessly usefull.

I say its ok to do the small bits you can't get ahold of like purty seals and skulls and I also think its ok to cast items that you can't buy anymore such as OOP items as long as they are for personal use.

I'm trying to make my own lighting claw's and everyone i know say's it's ok i have plenty of gun's i may need rocket launcher's though soon but you can get whole havoc's in blister's

Canonness Rory wrote:
The difference is holding up a convenience store is illegal, and has victims, whereas casting toy soldiers is not, and does not. It bcomes illegal when you try to sell them. And even if it was illegal, that doesn't mean it is wrong. In islamic countries it is illegal or a woman to leave the house without her husband's permission, does that mean it is wrong?

For every recast ( not original creation ) you make to save yourself money (because GW is expensive )

thats one item GW isnt getting money for ( even if its personal use )

Are you sure you arnt harming anyone now?

Its not that "its legal to recast a copy righted without permission aslong as its personal use"

Its "if its personal use i wont get caught , no one knows no one tells , all is ok "

I also agree that re-making things is fine, need that weapon or hard to find bit? There you go! I also agree that aslong as you aren't re-selling them it's fine, still illegal, but i'm not going to call you out on it or report it. If it's well done then all the power to you. Sure you deprive GW their 'hard earned' money but really you aren't hurting them. They continue to show that their business is greatly improving, growing, and with prices increase, I Know they wont miss the things you cast.

My gut feeling says that recasting is not ok at all. But truthfully, if I had the capability, I would most likely do it.
I would do it at the very least for bits, or when certain pieces could be used to easily mod one thing into another (ie. a devilfish into a hammerhead).

The prices are just so ridiculously high. If I wanted a full unit of wraithguards, I'd have to spend $150...

That is outrageous IMHO.

I don't support re-casting as it's a loss of creativity ; but i completely agree with casting part you create however you create it

I realize this isn't a justification for recasting figures, but how many other people's creative products did GW rip off in the creation of their universe? Tolkien, Moorcock, Aliens, Macross... So pot meet kettle. I hardly feel sorry for them, if recasting is hurting their bottom line - which seems unlikely. Obviously recasting and selling copies is illegal and that is well and good. But, I see casting as a craft, and frankly what I decide to model - even if it's modified parts of gw kits seems to me to be my business. That said, the idea of gaming in a GW store where you have to only use their product (i.e. no pig iron heads) seems to me to be anathema to the spirit of the hobby - at least the creative part of the hobby that I like and dakka dakka supports. - Sadly my points are moot because I dont have the equipment to cast - but if I did, I WOULD!

I'm fine with it for parts that you can't get normally, or something you break.

But never to sell.

Personally, I have never done it, and probably never will. I don't think it's illegal, I guess it's a bit like plagerism but legal. I don't think I would do it, just for the morale behind it, it would be cheating your FLGS (like they've never done it to us!).

i disagree completely with casting enless its
a) heavily sculpted
b) of ebay,GW, other people, etc

if you want those 50 melta guns
just hit up a bits store

doing a half decent recast of high detail currant gw models for resale is fraud and the people that do it properly end up losing money because the kit cost so much...... if you want knockoff gw gear go to http://www.giftsforgeeks.org.uk/

Ketara wrote:I think it's okay for OOP miniatures, and components that you can't acquire individually.

I agree with this

I don't see how it's OK sometimes and not so other times. It either is or isn't and that doesn't matter whether it's a small bit or a whole army

Personally, I don't do it but don't care if anyone else does

Doing illegal things is wrong. Everyone knows this. For instance, slaves escaping was illegal in the South before the U.S. Civil War. Therefore, it was bad if they did it. (Note the sarcasm.)

The fact that artists try and profit from their work is fine. The fact that lattices are set in place to provide the consumer with the product that they want is fine. Harnessing the power of the free market to entertain ourselves with little plastic minis is fine.

Now, if Joe X can reproduce something of Steve Y's at a smaller cost than Steve Y can provide it to him, Joe X is going to save money. Intellectual property is a crazy, past-controls-the-future kind of mash-up.

Intellectual property actually consists of copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets. Trade secrets, industrial design rights and patents are not even on the table here, so let's get on with getting down to brass tax. We are talking about the right to copy something, or copyrights. Also, if you pretend to be GW and sell their stuff, you are violating their trademark (which is arguably fraud anyway, so the laws are redundant.)

If they cannot produce something at a price that I am willing to pay, and I have a way to produce a derivative work to fulfill my own need in a more effective or efficient way than they can otherwise provide, I am going to do the obvious. The fact that copyrights are almost eternal now just goes to show how much control big money interests hold over the law. I suggest, if you don't know of it already, you go check out Mickey Mouse Protection Act. If you think of something, and I can think of a way to make it better/cheaper, then tough titty, no milk today.

If a company like GW wants to stay competitive in the market, it needs to sell something that people are willing to buy. It may own it's pretend universe on paper, but things like Warmachine reveal that they are leaving needs sorely unmet. The fact that they are still in business proves that they are still providing a product that is difficult to reproduce, however, and that is community.

The fact that they have a standardized system of rules (even if they are less than clear) that everyone can agree on, as well as a place provided for their players to enjoy the game, is a testament to their service to their customers. Out of this loyalty, and this loyalty alone, would I even hesitate to produce derivative works.

Just some food for thought; you don't have to be a senseless law-drone to lay claim to a legitimate moral compass. Just because someone else tells you that it is wrong does not mean that it is. Permitting someone to high-hand and brow-beat you with legal technicalities about something like copying minis is ridiculous. There is a line that can be crossed when laws cease to serve the freedoms of all and begin to encroach upon them. Copyright law is one of those line-crossers, as is overwhelmingly demonstrated in the melt-down of the CD industry at the advent of cheaper and easier downloading. Don't like the competition? Get out of the market.