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Melkhiordarkblade wrote:NEVER

Sorry,but I hate knock-offs in all shapes and sizes.

I deal in absolutes,and there is no "Buts".

How about if you take the case of the clear cast Tau stealth suits (one of the first posts) but with a twist.

What if I go and buy from GW every stealth suit figure I will be using, but I recast them clear to make them more cool. I take the originals with me when gaming to show I have a legit GW figure for every recast one I have, i just only use the clear recast.

As for recasting in general, if GW (or those they allow to sell their IP) sells it then suck it up, it's a luxury item you can do without.

Exceptions being wasteful purchase (money and environment wise) of a kit for just one part GW doesn't sell separately and recasting sculptures (yours or with permission of the one who made it) of IP GW doesn't sell figures/models for.

And if for some reason you can't explain you feel guilty, you can always buy a battleforce box for someone looking to get into the game.

This also goes for other companies.

I am only ok with recasting one model and that is Wraithguard, and even then its just because I feel bad for the Eldar players out there. But other than that my answer is never

All good as long as its not for sale, only issue i have otherwise is i dont know how to do it! someone teach me lol

I recast weapon options for each type of squad, if GW let you use options not on the models then I would not recast anything, but a bolter is not a plasma gun, a twin linked Lascannon is not a second close combat weapon, and a storm bolter is not a heavy flamer. Magnetize them all you want, GW does not sell enough in their sets.

If games workshop really wanted to prevent us from recasting, they would include enough extra weapons to fit ALL available options to ALL the products it sales. From marks of such and such, extra armor plates, possession attachments, combi weapons, shields, and so on.

I am Adrian, and I am proud to say, I recast weapon options.

My problem with the poll is that it does not distinguish between casting a model or two for personal use only and recasting with the intent to sell or mass produce the model in question. Also, is the recast done from one of your own models or did you "borrow" it from someone solely to get over on paying for it?

I think it's ok for any of the listed, but not ok to sell them.

Jon

What i have come to find most interesting about these polls is the fact that i am apparently a average gamer. I always or nearly always end up in the largest grouping. Interesting. especially since i am NOT average.

Recasting of an orignal piece, from a mafacturer is wrong, and recasting of any sort should only be done when the piece is entirely or almost entirely of your own design.

If it has any of a manafacturers parts in it, it is wrong to sell it.

That is my opinion.

It's funny, I was talking about this very topic the other day with my brother. As far as I'm concerned, recasting one of your own mini's is really no different to copying one of your own DVDs or CDs onto your Laptop/Tower PC/iPod or iPhone....just don't think about re-selling them is all.....

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:It's funny, I was talking about this very topic the other day with my brother. As far as I'm concerned, recasting one of your own mini's is really no different to copying one of your own DVDs or CDs onto your Laptop/Tower PC/iPod or iPhone....just don't think about re-selling them is all.....

Copying DVDs and CDs onto your laptop (regardless of usage) is illegal as well. The only time it is permitted is if the DVD / CD in question explicitly gives you permission to do so. Which almost none of them do. Now in the US it is permitted to make a single backup copy of the DVD/CD but that is a BACKUP in case of destroyed media... Not the primary way of playing the music. Not coincidentally, the RIAA has tried to stop that as well.

Now you can get properly licensed DVD and CD downloads through purchasing a physical copy but, again, this will be clearly marked on the media case and doesn't apply to all movies/music. Further, you can purchase the media from one of the download stores (iTunes, Amazon, etc) which typically grants you rights to transfer to certain devices.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:As far as I'm concerned, recasting one of your own mini's is really no different to copying one of your own DVDs or CDs onto your Laptop/Tower PC/iPod or iPhone....

The law is with you on this one: they are the same and just as illegal.

Point is unless GW starts putting verbiage on the boxes for their models granting permission to make copies, it is very illegal to make casts and parts from their molds.

Quite frankly, I think it's immoral as well. IMHO, it doesn't matter if they offer that particular part for individual sale or not, nor does it matter if you have to spend $100 for a single melta gun in order to make your army WYSIWYG. It's their IP and their sales model; ergo, it's completely up to them (and you) to decide what to do. If WYSIWYG is that important, you should spend the requisite money or find a suitable alternative such as buying the bit from a trusted source or trading with a buddy.

Speaking for casting, I just bout 2 sets of those ammo crates and battlefield accessories.

I am going to cast the inside crates, cast my own crates using bio packs, sholderpads, and helms. Also make another using grenades, CC weapons, and bulters.

then cast them all several times, so I will have a real weapon cashes worth of ammo, weapons, and armor.

Shouldn't be an issue at all if it's for personal use. There is not a precedent for having End User license agreements for models / miniatures.

Software and Music are whole different story, as is their method of transmission / dispersal.

To compare miniatures to software/ music is comparing apples to oranges.

Of course it is outright illegal to SELL such copies, but to reproduce them yourself for your own enjoyment is basically none of GW's business. My brother, a lawyer, went as far to say that it would be outright unconstitutional on a physical property rights level to dis allow people from making their home-made copies of plastic toy soldiers for their own enjoyment. But that's in the US. I have no clue how it would work in other countries.

But while it's totally OK to recast stuff for yourself, good luck trying to use it in a GW store / tourney since they specifically forbid such practices, something that is within their rights as the owners of the premises.

Even though I recast a lot of weapons, unique shoulder pieces, helmets. I still support GW by buying new Space marine bodies to put them on. And to be honest, I think people that recast whole figures are just stupid because with the cost of GOOD slow-cure low-bubble resins and good RTV it is outright cheaper to just hit up EBAY and buy official GW stuff from the discount sellers. Not to mention, quality degradation must be severe when casting full bodies :p

chromedog wrote: Warpage and bubbles* are said to be the 'tells' for resin re-casts. I disagree, they are the tells for BAD resin recasts

You just summed up Finecast...

I think it depends on the situation, I personally wouldn't mind recasting just about anything if I needed it that badly.

First off, having the ability to create molds and copies is one of the most difficult modeling techniques to perfect. Unless you have professional grade equipment, and a lot of time, and money to sink into casting, a modeler will never be able to crank out the volume and quality of well established manufacturer. Recasting can serve it's purpose. For example, if you are scratch building something and need multiple copies, sometimes recasting is the way to go. Also, a lot of units come with extra bits, and the only thing stopping you from making more units is that there is a set amount of parts. Say for example, a squad may have come with only 10 figures, but have enough option heads and arms to make a second squad. It seems to be a waste to have all of these option parts and no bodies to put them on. In my opinion, if you recast anything for yourself or for other people it's ok regardless of what it is.

I myself have just recently got into recasting, because this is a technique which I have always wanted to master ever since I started the hobby. From what I've learned, I can tell you this. Good casting material is very expensive and time consuming. Unless you've mastered the skill, it's more effective just to go out and buy the original. As the Goblins say: "Time is money friend".

Below is a mix of original and recasted chests and legs pieces of Orks. Can you tell the difference?. At at glance, they all look the same.

Redbeard wrote:

elite_dannux wrote:No the money wont go tho the wrong place because the "problem" is so small. Id be surprised if there are eaven 100 people that makes recasts in eaven small numbers IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

The scale of the problem doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Candy bars are inexpensive, they cost the candy company a paltry amount to make. Do you believe it is okay to steal candy from a store, because the value is so small?

It's not silly, it's how society functions. We don't steal items and justify it because the value of the item was low.

See, I think this is a horrible analogy.

Recasting isn't stealing candy from the store. It's buying a candy bar from the store, going home, then making another candy bar just like it. Then the candy bar company wants to sue because you stole a candy bar from them.

This is the same as the music industry claiming multi-billion dollar losses every year due to piracy - when in reality, those aren't lost sales. Theft requires that the property owner be deprived of the stolen good.

Nor would GW suing someone for private reproduction and use stand up in any court in the U.S. Reproduction and sale *is* illegal and infringement of IP and the GW trademark. Recasting for personal use is not.

I've just purchased a $30 casting kit from Amazon. Right now my Dark Eldar army has all the blasters that it needs - but I derive them from old 3rd edition warriors with blasters, some cut down and modified dark lances, and a few of the new warriors with blasters. I've purchased enough boxes of warriors to replace every warrior and trueborn in my entire army, but each box only comes with a single blaster. I've already scoured the bitz websites to no avail, scoured the internet for trades...and everyone needs their blasters.

My two choices:
1. Keep the old blasters and the modified blasters that I've made.
2. Attempt to clone one of my new blasters in a casting, and update my old models with new warriors (of which I have plenty of extras) with casted blasters.

Neither of these actions deprives GW of property, so there's no theft. Neither of these actions results in lost revenue for GW, so there's not even a claim of lost sales.

It's perfectly legal, and exemplary of capitalism. Where GW is failing to sell me what I need, and how I need it, I will fill my need in other ways.

Dashofpepper,

You've pretty much summed it all up about recasting. I'm also new to casting stuff. Check out this site:

http://www.danperezstudios.com/workshoppages/molding_casting.htm

This is probably one of the best explanations about casting stuff. Especially if you're just starting out.

Yay Dash! I agree!

Ok i have a new oppinnion on recasting:
It's haaaaard.

I'm fine with it actually

It's perfectly legal, and exemplary of capitalism. Where GW is failing to sell me what I need, and how I need it, I will fill my need in other ways.---dashofpepper.


The idea of recasting being so bad. Fine come up with anything you got. Some compared candy bars to mini's. Okay so know you have cancer and the big pharma wants you to dish out 12,000. But I know someone down the street who is a chemist that can replicate the same thing for 1,200.

But mora thats not the same thats life or death. Well its the same core thing. Just added something that would make most Butthurt bawwers realize how stupid that the argue over it. So what then you can be the one to spend 12,000. then Ill get the 1,200 and buy another or 3 just to wave it/them in front of you while you die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also recent moves by GW...prices rising and their demand lowering. they set themselves up for it. When you realize that it only costs them about $5.00(USD) to make a landraider you get alittle mad..Granted yes they had to pay for all the materials and the modeler. But some of this things are already paid for. The supply and demand is decreasing due to various reason's. Gw raises prices and finds way's to make the models cheaper for them while hiking up prices for us and people complain recaster's about low-balling. Their products become faulty and attempt to sell you items to fix your problem. usually items you can get at a hobby store for $3.00 and GW has the same tool for 15.00..come on i assume some of you when't to school and learned some common sense of when your getting ripped off. Also so buying a paint brush from (insert store) cheaper than GW product is wrong i assume. also if you get so butt-hurt by things being copyrighted you do also understand having and using pictures of said item also infringes those same laws...most of you have pictures of the models you own. I looked for a old post on another fourm of a man and his tattoo artist got sued for having a space marine and might i add a bad ass space marine tattoo. So probally 90% of you butthurts complaining about legal and illegal...do your complaining while not breaking the same laws you trying to defend. Its kinda annoying and again ill ask if you ever learned common sense while in school?

I am pretty much indifferent on what anyone does with their recasting with the exception of selling them whether it is a bit to an entire sprue although im on the fence on bartering them.

MORA wrote:It's perfectly legal, and exemplary of capitalism. Where GW is failing to sell me what I need, and how I need it, I will fill my need in other ways.---dashofpepper.


The idea of recasting being so bad. Fine come up with anything you got. Some compared candy bars to mini's. Okay so know you have cancer and the big pharma wants you to dish out 12,000. But I know someone down the street who is a chemist that can replicate the same thing for 1,200.

But mora thats not the same thats life or death. Well its the same core thing. Just added something that would make most Butthurt bawwers realize how stupid that the argue over it. So what then you can be the one to spend 12,000. then Ill get the 1,200 and buy another or 3 just to wave it/them in front of you while you die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also recent moves by GW...prices rising and their demand lowering. they set themselves up for it. When you realize that it only costs them about $5.00(USD) to make a landraider you get alittle mad..Granted yes they had to pay for all the materials and the modeler. But some of this things are already paid for. The supply and demand is decreasing due to various reason's. Gw raises prices and finds way's to make the models cheaper for them while hiking up prices for us and people complain recaster's about low-balling. Their products become faulty and attempt to sell you items to fix your problem. usually items you can get at a hobby store for $3.00 and GW has the same tool for 15.00..come on i assume some of you when't to school and learned some common sense of when your getting ripped off. Also so buying a paint brush from (insert store) cheaper than GW product is wrong i assume. also if you get so butt-hurt by things being copyrighted you do also understand having and using pictures of said item also infringes those same laws...most of you have pictures of the models you own. I looked for a old post on another fourm of a man and his tattoo artist got sued for having a space marine and might i add a bad ass space marine tattoo. So probally 90% of you butthurts complaining about legal and illegal...do your complaining while not breaking the same laws you trying to defend. Its kinda annoying and again ill ask if you ever learned common sense while in school?

FYI--- not trying to defend prices or anything, but the molds used for plastic extrusion molding, like all GW's plastics use, can cost thousands and thousands of dollars. And they don't last forever.

Also, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Personally, don't see the sense in buying a whole box just for an extra melta gun, but most of the time, there's an online bits store like Warstore that can help out.

The thing is i am torn between recasting OOP models and not doing it because it's still the originators IP.

I mean do you have to wait for stuff on Ebay? And then pay x times what it's worth to someone who has this? Especially when it's not valuable (not like an original painting or what have you?) so casting a part that you are then going to use? That seem fair, so long as you do not sell them.

On the Subject of GW prices, it's very simple, if you are that bothered give up your 40k Plastic "Crack" addiction. It really is that simple.... Otherwise pay the money and STFU. You cannot pay for it and complain because it won't change the companies Pricing policy, because.....drum roll please...They are still making money!!

yes stuff should be replicated that you cant buy. This all happened because GW stopped the bitz box. Myself was very annoyed when this happened.
I understand its to make more money because If I want to convert eg:
Chaos lord with abadon's Sword and cyphers back pack
Thats 3 models I'd need to buy.
Could go on and on about the annoyence of them closing the bitz side of GW.
Peace

I play orks. Those who do know that when you you buy boys, you get enough legs and torsos to make about 10 boys, either slugga/choppa or shoota variety. You get 20 sets of arms and only 10 sets of legs. I cast the legs to use my extra bits.

Recasting things that are really oop and hard to get is fine.

I'm doing it with some classic dark lances for my classic radier / ravagers.

These lances are also underslung using the gun-arm from the old Reaver Jetbikes. So it's not just 1 really hard to aqquire expensive ancient bit, it's 2!

i dont agree with recasting at all, i mean, theres a fine line between casting a batch of custom greenstuffed shoulder pads, for personal use (which i admit i do) and recasting a whole model, i convert and customise models all the time, but only cast when it is verry nessasary as i just dont agree with copying someone elses work.

I mean, you wouldnt buy 10 tactical squads and only pay for one, would you?

I would, actually, buy 10 marines and pay for 1. If they sell terrain and MC-basing kits that cheap I'm all for it.

The thing with recasting, though, is that you produce property. The actual item itself is your own since you (hopefully) legally payed for the material and equipment. It's the act of recasting a design of someone else that's illegal.

The real question is, on a moral scale, whether a company can be said to be entitled to full ownership of an idea or a design which they do not exploit or do not provide the market with adequately. It's a highly intellectual debate, mind you, since in most countries the law is clear.