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They are not humans, they're aliens, so they aren't good or bad: they are different. Of course, they are more sociables than us

They're evil. They don't allow people to have their own views. Humanity is evil too. They cause more pain than they relieve people of.

The Defenestrator wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:
I believe the tau emerged through the manipulations of the old ones, and that may give the impression that they are forces for good.

Not to derail the thread, but I think this is interesting. I'm not 100% up on their fluff, but I've yet to see anything indicating the old ones themselves were even 'good'. Certainly self-serving, willing to create and destroy entire races (orks are a certainty; many more are likely) to suit their needs and desires. I've yet to see them do anything considered positive, beyond trying to destroy the two foes of their time that threatened (and ultimately denied) their survival; chaos and the necrons.

The tau really lucked out when it comes to their situation. They have a generous amount of valuable star systems in their own neat little niche. They were saved from extermination by a freak warp storm, they are a biological wonders with their caste systems, the ethereal just showed up one day on their planet and are operating with some agenda that is not even revealed to the tau (might be genetically imprinted), and they have weak warp presences that protect them from chaos influence. Just the genetic nature of the tau alone suggest someone was playing around with their genes when they where in their were running around in loin clothes and pointy sticks– who else but the old ones could and would do that?

The old ones old attempts bombed due to them falling to chaos or degrading. All the major races trace their origins to the old ones, if the tau didn’t they would not really fit into the 40K equation. With everything about the tau including the rather amazing serendipity that led their race to its current position, it is not unreasonably to think they are getting some majority interference for the old ones either directly or indirectly.

The old ones IMHO just like playing Johnny Appleseed with lifeforms.

Grunt13 wrote:who else but the old ones could and would do that?

Eldar, Necrons, the Brainboys, humans with access to Dark Age technology, Slaan, evolution, a yet unknown alien race, Tyranids (not likely in this instance), Fabius Bile (even less likely).

I'm not sure I see just what makes the Tau so genetically grand. They have pheromones that allow some of them to naturally be put in charge; that doesn't seem outlandish. Not at all for the 40k universe. Kroot gaining genetic traits through eating their prey is far more unlikely. Catachan Barking Toads exploding like a nuclear bomb is even sillier.

Especially since the Eldar and Orks are both physiologically far superior to humans, and Tau are generally inferior to humans. Aside from the Ethereal Caste they're not exceptional by any measure, and that doesn't scream "greatest geneticists the galaxy has ever known must have created them" to me.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:who else but the old ones could and would do that?

Eldar, Necrons, the Brainboys, humans with access to Dark Age technology, Slaan, evolution, a yet unknown alien race, Tyranids (not likely in this instance), Fabius Bile (even less likely).

I'm not sure I see just what makes the Tau so genetically grand. They have pheromones that allow some of them to naturally be put in charge; that doesn't seem outlandish. Not at all for the 40k universe. Kroot gaining genetic traits through eating their prey is far more unlikely. Catachan Barking Toads exploding like a nuclear bomb is even sillier.

Especially since the Eldar and Orks are both physiologically far superior to humans, and Tau are generally inferior to humans. Aside from the Ethereal Caste they're not exceptional by any measure, and that doesn't scream "greatest geneticists the galaxy has ever known must have created them" to me.

There are five different divergent races of Tau. These races possess unique and specialized traits the same way social insects have particular roles in a hive. Despite this established caste system they existed in isolation from each other and even competed, unlike social insects. Look at the five castes Water: merchants and negotiators, Fire: the fighters and warriors, Air: Space flight and air vehicle managers, Earth: builders and manufacturers, and the Ethereals: leaders, controllers. It was the fact that there were 5 categories of tau that where so specialized which led me to use the term “genetic wonders” - having a caste specialized for space travel seems to suggest tampering to me, specially considering they where all unspecialized cavemen when the imperium last peeked in on them - 4000 years ago I think. Everything about that set up suggest to me that someone played around with the tau genome to create a futuristic society. Don’t forget the warp resistant natures of the tau are a huge advantage; 60 million years ago the old ones accomplishments were undone by a warp plague. Then a new race that possesses a resistance against the kind of phenomenon which took out 95% of the galaxy shows up. Put a possum-rat creature next to a T-Rex and no doubt the dinosaur wins hands down. But throw in an asteroid into the equation and who’s the fittest now? Yes, a normal human can smack around a tau and walk away with his lunch money, but just wait for the next warp plague.

As for possible creators:
Eldar – does not fit their MO – I have no knowledge of any kind of genetic experimentation done by the eldar.
Brain Boys – I was under the impression that the most recent fluff suggest that the brain boys where the old ones or their agents
Humans – maybe they did make the space marines after all, but why; to create an empire to rival their own?
Slann – They are the agents of the old ones (see Fantasy).
Evolution – The fact that Ethereals just dropped in one day and had the ability to assume control of all other Tau is a good counter-argument against normal evolution. Even if the ethereals evolved in a small isolated island hidden from all other Tau how would they acquire such a trait that was geared to solely to affect other tau castes?
Tyranids – not likely – the tau where noted by the imperials many thousands of years before the tyranids showed up. Plus it is really not their MO.
Fabious bile – Uses the warp for his experiments anything he produces would be touched heavily by it.
Other Aliens – Possible, but if mysterious unseen aliens perform the manipulation why not just make them Old Ones from a writers point of view.

Here’s my basic theory which follows acumen’s razor: The Tau were created/ modified by an outside entity (evidence stated above) + the only race that has a record for flying around and creating sentient life are the old ones = the tau where made by the old ones.

Grunt13 wrote:There are five different divergent races of Tau. These races possess unique and specialized traits the same way social insects have particular roles in a hive. Despite this established caste system they existed in isolation from each other and even competed, unlike social insects. Look at the five castes Water: merchants and negotiators, Fire: the fighters and warriors, Air: Space flight and air vehicle managers, Earth: builders and manufacturers, and the Ethereals: leaders, controllers. It was the fact that there were 5 categories of tau that where so specialized which led me to use the term “genetic wonders” - having a caste specialized for space travel seems to suggest tampering to me, specially considering they where all unspecialized cavemen when the imperium last peeked in on them - 4000 years ago I think.

What are the gentetic traits of the non-Ethereal castes that make them so exceptional? The fire caste has traits selected for them that make them better fighters, but that's true of any militaristic society. The earth caste has a penchant for physical strength, but if that's what's selected for in the caste that's what you'll get.

Construction workers and soldiers are stronger than most people, but that's genetic modification. If for some reason all people of race X were raised from birth to be construction workers, members of race X would be unusually strong, even without selective breeding. Don't the Tau breed selectively anyways? If the Tau themselves are tampering with their own castes so that they can better fulfil their specialization, that's enough to make huge changes in a society.

There are five castes in traditional Indian society; and they roughly translated into Leaders/Priests, Warriors, Merchants, Peasants, and Outcasts. These aren't the result of genetic tampering. They were "engineered" in a sense, by the Leader/Priest caste, as I would suspect the Tau castes were.

Here's another things about the Tau; the Fire Caste is supposed to have been created - physiologically - for war by the Old Ones? It doesn't add up. Orks and Eldar are far superior to the Fire Caste in terms of physiological ability. The Tau don't even have particularly good eyesight. They're weaker and slower than humans. The Earth caste is weaker than the Orks are. The Water caste is far less graceful than the Eldar. I'm not sure what the Air caste really has going for them, besides "being thin".

Everything about that set up suggest to me that someone played around with the tau genome to create a futuristic society. Don’t forget the warp resistant natures of the tau are a huge advantage; 60 million years ago the old ones accomplishments were undone by a warp plague. Then a new race that possesses a resistance against the kind of phenomenon which took out 95% of the galaxy shows up. Put a possum-rat creature next to a T-Rex and no doubt the dinosaur wins hands down. But throw in an asteroid into the equation and who’s the fittest now? Yes, a normal human can smack around a tau and walk away with his lunch money, but just wait for the next warp plague.

They don't have "warp resistence" as any sort of trait. They simply do not have a large warp presence. They're like most creatures in that respect. Humans are unusually attuned to the warp, and that's due to becoming a more "psychic race" with time. Eldar and Orks were created by the Old Ones to be as attuned to the warp as they are. Tyranids require the Warp to function, but Zoanthropes were still created with Eldar DNA.

Tau are normal, the other races are exceptional. The only thing exceptional about the Tau is that they've survived as long as they have, and have a somewhat significant intersteller empire (including a pretty limited form of warp travel).

As for possible creators:
Eldar – does not fit their MO – I have no knowledge of any kind of genetic experimentation done by the eldar.

The Dark Eldar show enough of the Eldar's biological manipulation abiltiy to easily do the very small alterations required to them.

Brain Boys – I was under the impression that the most recent fluff suggest that the brain boys where the old ones or their agents

Probably some sort of agent, but it's unknown how closely they worked together.

Humans – maybe they did make the space marines after all, but why; to create an empire to rival their own?

It probably wouldn't be the Imperium behind it.

Slann – They are the agents of the old ones (see Fantasy).

Did the Old Ones start a Waagh! on Armageddon? It's unknown how close the Slann are to the Old Ones, ore really if either one still exists.

Evolution – The fact that Ethereals just dropped in one day and had the ability to assume control of all other Tau is a good counter-argument against normal evolution. Even if the ethereals evolved in a small isolated island hidden from all other Tau how would they acquire such a trait that was geared to solely to affect other tau castes?

How long is "one day" over the course of thousands of years? Is a decade "one day"? Is a century? Christianity spread pretty fast. Islam spread pretty fast. Communism spread pretty fast. Perhaps Ethereals are affected by the pheromones of other Ethereals to an extent? In that case, they would have built up the ability to lead among their own people, and would have found this leadership ability even more prominent among other Tau.

Besides, it's not like the pheromone use is all they use to control throngs of Tau. They're not Hive Tyrants. They use a well-developed ideology that borders on a religion, primarily. There have been plenty of human groups that have come into power with one of those, even without the use of pheromones that make others react favorably to them. (And humans do use pheromones to a degree themselves. Mostly for mating; but sometimes that and leadership come hand in hand.)

Tyranids – not likely – the tau where noted by the imperials many thousands of years before the tyranids showed up. Plus it is really not their MO.

They did create the Zoats, but I don't think this one is particularly likely.

Fabious bile – Uses the warp for his experiments anything he produces would be touched heavily by it.

He could probably avoid it if he wanted, but making the Tau isn't like him in the least at any rate.

Other Aliens – Possible, but if mysterious unseen aliens perform the manipulation why not just make them Old Ones from a writers point of view.

What if the Old Ones were just a loose association of different alien races to begin with? That'd be interesting. But yeah, I was just throwing the possibility out there; as I was Bile and the Tyranids, really.

You originally asked "who has the ability?", not "who is likely to have done it?".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I forgot, another common theory is that the Deceiver created the Tau, and the Ethereals are his unwitting servants.

I don't really think this is likely, but it doesn't really seem less likely than the Old Ones having created them, honestly. In either case it's fairly outlandish. There's no evidence that the Old Ones have done anything since the Enslaver plague.

Ehh, to me, they are kinda like the eldar, not good and not evil. They just want the best for their race. I guess it depends on who's point of view you're on. I mean, from a human, they are one of those races that can actually pose a threat, so they are evil. Eldar: They arer a young race, not really after us so who cares?
Tyranids: nomnomnomnom FOOD!

The special genius of the Tau is their ability to synthesis and create teams which have synergy.

For example, the Tau space fleets include Kroot, Nicassar and Demiurg units. It's not impossible they could integrate human ships too, in the same way as Gue'vesa, if a sufficiently large system broke away from the Empire.

The make-up Tau aremies shows the same team-building approach as does the separation of Tau society into castes.

The castes are similar to the traditional castes of India, Samurai Japan and to some extent feudal Europe (the Church, nobles, yeomen, peasants and serfs.) In the Tau case they are not socially stratefied, except for the Ethereals at the top.

Selective breeding is so clearly a bad idea that I suppose the Studio wrote it into the fluff as one of their general terrible ideas to add grimdarkness™; 40K is full of ideas that wouldn't work but are very grimdark™.

Or maybe they put it there to set up a Tau civil war.

The difference between the Tau and Human viewpoints is that the Tau want to integrate everyone in their empire, while humans just want to kill everyone.

The deceiver connection was made solely due to the fact that the deceivers model (remember it is a shape shifter with no true form) has a similar design on its head as the tau ethereals. I don’t consider this a strong piece of evidence. Other possible culprits would leave their signature. Bile, dark eldar, tyranids, and other bad guys leave telltale signs of their involvement wherever they go. If there origins lie with them I would expect to see a clear connection. Mutating life is one thing, creating a viable species is quite another. No species other than the old ones made sentient life that we know of. The old ones were a singular species, they were immortal or at the very least extremely long living and made the warp as super highway/communication relay it was said that their presence would cause creatures with lesser minds to spasm and die (lizardman armybook). They did have minions that were made to assist and fight for them when battling the necrons.

Here is some solid evidence for genetic manipulation:
From the first Tau codex on the second to last page. It goes into the genetic nature of the Tau, here are some quotes from the passage: “An evolutionary leap far beyond what would be normally expected…evolution is so gradual as to be almost impossible to detect in only a few generations. However, in the case of the Tau there is evidence to suggest that their species underwent short periods of ultra-rapid change … the process has been accelerated somehow”. The article also goes to on to discuss the unlikelihood of 5 subspecies developing in a somewhat similar case that I have made. There are noteworthy biological differences between the castes most outwardly obvious being the air caste – they have wings, have augmented resistance to g-forces, have eyes that function better in space flight/combat, their brains respond to 3D situations better than other tau and humans, and they are no longer comfortable in standard earth like conditions (they now live in low to zero gravity space stations). How could these conditions emerge from a species living on a planet through natural evolution?

Warp Resistance: I feel this was suggested from my readings, as I don’t have I clear recall to the article(s) that gave me this impression I might have to concede my point. Wasn’t there a battle between the tau and slaanesh forces that had the kroot turn one their allies while the tau remained unaffected? Also the commander kills a keeper only feeling a slight hesitation to do so while the daemon is attempting to seduce him, while in the fluff mere mortals instantly fall to the knees and swear loyalty to the KoS upon seeing them? In the game firewarrior don’t the Tau show a resistance to chaos compared to the humans? I never played the game but I remember someone explaining to me that humans were turned by chaos in the game while the tau didn’t. GWS made chaos/magic/ corruption resistant races with the dwarfs and Halflings for fantasy I was under the impression they did the same in 40K. But like I said I don’t have anything concrete on this theory, it was just something I was led to believe.

A lot of things worked out in favor for Tau advancement other then their “evolution”, granted we can’t rule out chance, but after a while you have to wonder if someone is/was looking out for them.

The freak warpstorm that saved them from the imperium while they still were cavemen.

Living in a nice little niche full of life sustaining planets. Look at how many viable worlds are just 3 or 4 light years from T’au.

The discovery of a warp capable spacecraft right at the point of their technology development where they could reverse engineer it. The alien vessel being conveniently dropped on their doorsteps.

Being located in an ideal part of galaxy, as far away from the eye of terror you could get. (tyranids are a problem but they couldn’t have been unforeseen as they come from outside the galaxy)

Having “friendly” aliens just a dozen or so light years away (kroot, vespid, others).

Looks to me that circumstances have been very kind to the Tau – too kind.

Grunt13 wrote:The deceiver connection was made solely due to the fact that the deceivers model (remember it is a shape shifter with no true form) has a similar design on its head as the tau ethereals. I don’t consider this a strong piece of evidence. Other possible culprits would leave their signature. Bile, dark eldar, tyranids, and other bad guys leave telltale signs of their involvement wherever they go. If there origins lie with them I would expect to see a clear connection. Mutating life is one thing, creating a viable species is quite another. No species other than the old ones made sentient life that we know of.

The Iron Men might count. It seems like the Brainboys were not the Old Ones (as they became the Snotlings), so they would count, although they're still just once removed from the Old Ones (as are the Eldar, though..).

And if you create a new species, you are "mutating" it. In fact humans have, today, created plenty of new species ourselves; new species of plants and such. The Tau weren't created from scratch.

The old ones were a singular species, they were immortal or at the very least extremely long living and made the warp as super highway/communication relay it was said that their presence would cause creatures with lesser minds to spasm and die (lizardman armybook).

I think I was mixing them up with the Council from Legion (which had an Eldar sitting on it, so they obviously weren't the Old Ones).

However, I don't think the Old Ones in 40k created the warp; I think they were the first ones to explore it, and created the Webway to travel through it once it started to stir.

Here is some solid evidence for genetic manipulation:
From the first Tau codex on the second to last page. It goes into the genetic nature of the Tau, here are some quotes from the passage: “An evolutionary leap far beyond what would be normally expected…evolution is so gradual as to be almost impossible to detect in only a few generations. However, in the case of the Tau there is evidence to suggest that their species underwent short periods of ultra-rapid change … the process has been accelerated somehow”. The article also goes to on to discuss the unlikelihood of 5 subspecies developing in a somewhat similar case that I have made.

Hmm, I should probably reread the Tau codex. I didn't know they leading to that degree; yeah, from that it sounds likely there was some intervention.

There are noteworthy biological differences between the castes most outwardly obvious being the air caste – they have wings,

Really? I must be behind on the Tau fluff. I didn't think the Forgeworld pilots have wings.

have augmented resistance to g-forces, have eyes that function better in space flight/combat, their brains respond to 3D situations better than other tau and humans, and they are no longer comfortable in standard earth like conditions (they now live in low to zero gravity space stations). How could these conditions emerge from a species living on a planet through natural evolution?

Don't ships have artificial gravity in 40k? Maybe not the Tau?

Alright, that does sound like manipulation by some party. However, it's still pretty small stuff. I'm sure Eldar have pretty much all of those attributes themselves (minus being uncomfortable on land), in addition to being better at everything else they do. The Tau just don't match up with the other creations of the Old Ones.

Warp Resistance: I feel this was suggested from my readings, as I don’t have I clear recall to the article(s) that gave me this impression I might have to concede my point. Wasn’t there a battle between the tau and slaanesh forces that had the kroot turn one their allies while the tau remained unaffected?
Also the commander kills a keeper only feeling a slight hesitation to do so while the daemon is attempting to seduce him, while in the fluff mere mortals instantly fall to the knees and swear loyalty to the KoS upon seeing them?

Hmm, I haven't read that one. However, the regimented lifestyle/pseudo-religion of the Tau and their general lack of emotion would probably give them an edge. (As would being the protagonist in a story, presumably.)

In the game firewarrior don’t the Tau show a resistance to chaos compared to the humans? I never played the game but I remember someone explaining to me that humans were turned by chaos in the game while the tau didn’t. GWS made chaos/magic/ corruption resistant races with the dwarfs and Halflings for fantasy I was under the impression they did the same in 40K. But like I said I don’t have anything concrete on this theory, it was just something I was led to believe.

Well, they would be more resistant than humans (against the manipulation of the soul or whatever; not against physical corruption), but that would be due to humanity being unusually psychic (and sentient). They're not as psychic as Eldar or Orks, but they're a lot more psychic in the 41st millennium than they were in, say, 2009. It's part of their emergence as a psychic race (which was supposed to be paved by the Emperor, but Chaos had other plans).

A lot of things worked out in favor for Tau advancement other then their “evolution”, granted we can’t rule out chance, but after a while you have to wonder if someone is/was looking out for them.

I'm inclined to think so too now, actually, but it doesn't seem like Old One caliber string pulling to me. If I had to guess I might go with Eldar, but I think there's not enough leads currently to really say. I still think Slaan are a possibility, you can't tell me Aun'Va isn't reminiscent of one!

The freak warpstorm that saved them from the imperium while they still were cavemen.

Living in a nice little niche full of life sustaining planets. Look at how many viable worlds are just 3 or 4 light years from T’au.

The discovery of a warp capable spacecraft right at the point of their technology development where they could reverse engineer it. The alien vessel being conveniently dropped on their doorsteps.

Being located in an ideal part of galaxy, as far away from the eye of terror you could get. (tyranids are a problem but they couldn’t have been unforeseen as they come from outside the galaxy)

Having “friendly” aliens just a dozen or so light years away (kroot, vespid, others).

Looks to me that circumstances have been very kind to the Tau – too kind.

Well, it's really not unlikely for a freak occurrence to have saved them/allowed them to thrive if you also look at all of the alien species who might have been saved by a freak event, but weren't. If there are a thousand alien races, and only 1/1,000 survive to become a space fairing empire (dodging not just the Imperium, but Orks, Tyranids, internal collapse, minor alien races, etc), then you should have a race that survives.

In a essence, the probability of a fully developed empire like the Tau's emerging anywhere with the hostile conditions offered by the rest of the galaxy should be much lower than the probability of them developing in nicer conditions. In that sense, if you see a successful alien empire you should guess that it was in a good spot, in the same way that you would assume that any random oak tree is growing in decent soil instead of a desert or ocean.

I got bored about half way through the thread so bear with me if this has been said.

If the Tau were a real race I believe they would probably fall under Lawful Neutral.

There are a couple of other clues in the fluff surrounding Tau that point to an Eldar connection.

In the first Tau codex, a top Eldar farseer is quoted saying he feels a kinship or fellow feeling with the Tau (I can't remember the exact wording.)

In Xenology, there are a couple of points which suggest that Eldar might have engineered the Ethereals using a pheremone organ transplanted from a third alien species.

If you assume the Ethereals are a stable, genetically engineered subspecies, it expains why they don't interbreed with the other castes, because they would pass on their Etherealness. It doesn't explain the ban on interbreeding among the other castes.

If you want a rationale for why the Tau are completely different to other Old One creations, but they are Old One creations, think of this. Everything else the Old Ones did went badly wrong for them, so perhaps a small, hidden surviving group of Old Ones made a new plan different to all the older plans.

The Tau Empire should be NEUTRAL with GOOD tendency. Despite this, the Empire is the only thing in the 40k Universe with gentle manners on diplomatic ways and they always ask if you want to join them or fight.

They are imperialists and colonists in the end, but since we have monsters, daemons, a dictatorial regime based on fear and ignorance (Imperium), mindless green xeno's who likes war ('cause its funny!), and snob Eldars who would slay entire worlds just for the sake of one.... well forgive me but Tau the closest thing to GOOD GUYS.

In Dark Crusade if I remember well, you cleanse the planet with the SM, CSM, ORKS and alike.... with Tau you don't kill the humans, they just well... avoid the capacity of reproduction.

Better than exterminatus for sure.

Dark Crusade is of doubtful canonicity.

I know, but it's a GW product anyway so it may be taken as a source. By the way from DoW they've made a brand new chapter, the Blood Ravens... and they also made an official appearance on Codex and WD.

Should we not take them then as non - canon ?

I think that everything makes canon from official products until someone with the right to, tells that there's something different. But then... GW is known to change, cut and rework the story of its universe. It's their right to.

Evil.
In theory, communism works. In theory.
Remember Stalin...

"Evil, in many cultures, is a broad term used to describe what are seen as subjectively harmful deeds that are labeled as such to steer moral support. Evil is usually contrasted with good, which describes acts that are subjectively beneficial to the observer."

So to the Tau themselves they are fundamentally not evil, however to the Imperium of man they are evil. Evil is subjective, based on your own morale viewpoint, so no one person can go "Yes the Tau are evil and that's that!"

The Orks aren't evil, it is their nature to fight, same way as the Tyranids aren't evil, they simply work off a biological predatory need to hunt. In that way, the Chaos Gods themselves cannot be evil, because they behave only according to their nature.

If you're asking who is the more evil from our standpoint (average joes who like a bit of fluff and wargaming) then I would say the Tau are better than the Imperium socially and morally, but then that wouldn't be hard...

Well, since good and evil are subjective terms, it would all depend on who you are in relation to the Tau. If you are Imperial, they are evil, as they want to destroy the Imperium and absorb humanity into their "cause/religion." If you are Tau, then they are good, spreading their religion and attacking those deemed unworthy whenever they can.

From a neutral perspective, they could be considered evil, as they do not particularly care who you are, if you are not for them, and you are a weak target or assisting their enemy (even while assisting the Tau), then you are against them.

So I went with evil. Not saying the Imperium is good in the same stroke, but the Tau aren't all hugs and kisses if you don't welcome them with open arms and decrees of servitude/capitulance.

We don't view the Empire or Tau from their individual perspectives, we view them from our own.

Thus we can make an objective distinction.

We see that the Tau cause less harm or injury, etc. than the Empire and thus are less evil.

You cannot really define anything as Good or Evil unless you take a stance yourself. That stance determines what is good and what is evil according to what you have already decided.

Horus believed in what he was doing was Good and that the Emperor was Evil as does all of Chaos. I have not read through the Horus Heresy yet but it's next on my reading list. Grey Knights believe they are Good but yet the trials and what they are made for is inevitably not Good per se if you consider that they are defending an Imperium that subjugates its own citizens.

Tau believe in a Greater Good. They want to show everyone the way to the greater good and they are separated into Castes - which does not make them communists. Communists are essentially all considered equal and everyone gains a fair share. A caste system simply takes what others are best at and genetically breeds them for that purpose.

This caste system is very similar to India currently and a lot of governments throughout the ages. Even in America we have a type of caste system but it is a class system and is based on financial status. It is not genetic based. The Tau are not so much Communists as they are more crusaders. If you join them they are happy and treat you with respect. If you refuse they kill you. It's an ultimatum that is offered up to those they see as neutrals.

The water caste negotiators are simply another form of war. If you can take over a planet without firing a shot then

The Kroot are trusted allies because they have joined the cause. Are te Tau necessarily Good? No. No one is necessarily Good in 40K. Everyone has their own agendas and will go to great lengths to achieve those. This is why it is a Galaxy of war. No one is good. No one is evil. It is just them against us.

You can define evil as causing harm or injury, which is part of the dictionary definition.

Since harm and injury are objectively determined, this provides a way to analyse evil.

To be fair they're really more like the skin flaps flying squirrels have, rather then true wings. I am about 75% sure that I read somewhere that the old ones made the warp, I first thought it was the Necron codex, but I didn’t find anything concrete. Maybe in the Liber Chaotica tome, but I can’t say for sure. I didn’t even notice the similarity between the slann dais and the Tau head ethereal’s chair. There are a lot of similarities between the Tau and Lizardman. Their manifest destiny, how they have a plan for the other races, blind unquestioning loyalty to a fixed principle, and their caste systems.

The slann in both fantasy and 40K are the Robin to the old ones' Batman, they exist solely to serve the old ones and their agenda. The old ones' made the kork and then weaponized against the necrons. How the brain boyz fit into the equation I am unsure.

The eldar theory makes some sense, but why would they keep it secret? If it were in fact the old ones who engineered the Tau then it would have to be kept secret to protect their project and themselves. If news traveled to the necrons that the old ones are still active and have a new pet project the C’tan will do everything in their power to destroy the Tau and hunt down their creators - Chaos to would make extreme effort to prey on the old ones as well. The kinship the eldar farseer feels might be due to that their species both share parental-like creators. Plus if it was the eldar, why didn’t they tweak the dogma of the greater good to also include being exceptional nice to the craftworld eldar. Craftworlds and exodite planets have been attacked by the Tau because they have refused to join up.

Many people who believe that 40K and fantasy are tied into each other as the same setting. There is evidence in Fantasy of 40K being the outer setting for the world. In one story a wizard has visions of eldar craftworlds and a large battle with titans; a chaos daemon states why it chooses to fight on the fantasy world rather then other planets in a chaos army book; people find bolt pistols and chainswords in the chaos wastes and 40K equipment was found on that swamp island campaign; and so on. So if the fantasy world is in the 40K universe even if it is on another galaxy it suggest that the old ones are still a hidden but active force in the 40K universe. As the old ones were on the fantasy world 10,000 years ago doing their thing an engineering life. This would put the old ones in the 40K universe well after the warp plagues. Because unless time travel is put into play how could the old ones exist at the same time as “modern day” 40K equipment if they were completely exterminated 60 million years ago. Plus in the necron codex it makes mention of the descendents of the old ones and suggest playing 40K games incorporating lizardman.

Neutral, as far as i can remember the Tau dont desire an empire the size of the Imperiums, don't want death like chaos or Necrons, they only seek a comfortable existence

Why would the Eldar keep it a secret?

Because it's part of a plan.

I haven't read any fluff indicating the Tau had attacked Craftworlds or exodites. Is it in some of the novels?

The Tau actually believe it is their destiny to unite the whole galaxy under the principle of The Greater Good.

Grunt13 wrote:To be fair they're really more like the skin flaps flying squirrels have, rather then true wings. I am about 75% sure that I read somewhere that the old ones made the warp, I first thought it was the Necron codex, but I didn’t find anything concrete. Maybe in the Liber Chaotica tome, but I can’t say for sure. I didn’t even notice the similarity between the slann dais and the Tau head ethereal’s chair. There are a lot of similarities between the Tau and Lizardman. Their manifest destiny, how they have a plan for the other races, blind unquestioning loyalty to a fixed principle, and their caste systems.

Hmm... this makes me think of the Slann again.

The slann in both fantasy and 40K are the Robin to the old ones' Batman, they exist solely to serve the old ones and their agenda. The old ones' made the kork and then weaponized against the necrons. How the brain boyz fit into the equation I am unsure.

My theory is that the Brainboys were the original "krork", and were one of the Old Ones' earlier races. The Old Ones sort of commissioned a type of ultimate warrior race, so the Brainboys used their own DNA and relation to the Orkoid fungi to create all of the other Orkoids, with Orks as the warriors, Grots as the workers, Brainboys as the leaders, Squigs as supplies, etc. At this point I don't know if "krork" would refer to the Brainboys specifically, or greenskins as a whole. Then the Orks ruined the Brainboys' plan and the rest is history.

The Brainboys were included in the new codex, which makes me think they must have been the Orks' actual creators (the connection between the Old Ones and the Orks was always a bit of speculation). The Old Ones being snotlings is an entertaining notion, but it would sort of silly.

The eldar theory makes some sense, but why would they keep it secret?

From each other or other races? They make everything secret from other races. They're probably the most secretive race in the game. As far as one craftworld keeping it secret from others, it's not too unlikely. They have lived and evolved completely separate from each other for thousands of years, only meeting together on the rare occasion other Eldar actually come into danger. I would expect distrust to be common among the craftworlds, given what's at stake, and given that the Eldar have caused a lot of problems for their own race.

If it were in fact the old ones who engineered the Tau then it would have to be kept secret to protect their project and themselves. If news traveled to the necrons that the old ones are still active and have a new pet project the C’tan will do everything in their power to destroy the Tau and hunt down their creators -

I agree, they certainly wouldn't announce their presence. They probably would be a lot less powerful than they were at one point as well.

Chaos to would make extreme effort to prey on the old ones as well.

Really? I never heard of the Chaos Gods and the Old Ones being in conflict. I'm sure they wouldn't like each other (having wrecked the Eldar, and spoiled the warp), but aside from the Enslavers I don't know that they really interacted.

The kinship the eldar farseer feels might be due to that their species both share parental-like creators. Plus if it was the eldar, why didn’t they tweak the dogma of the greater good to also include being exceptional nice to the craftworld eldar. Craftworlds and exodite planets have been attacked by the Tau because they have refused to join up.

That's true, but the Craftworld Eldar are also pretty much the heirs to the Old One's ideas, continuing their fight against the Necrons. The Old Ones would have a reason for them to be exceptionally nice to the Craftworlders in that case as well.

I think it's a matter of the Tau simply not having been manipulated that in-depth. "The Greater Good" could easily be an invention of the Tau themselves; it's pretty similar to many different concepts that have made for successful hegemonies here.

Many people who believe that 40K and fantasy are tied into each other as the same setting. There is evidence in Fantasy of 40K being the outer setting for the world. In one story a wizard has visions of eldar craftworlds and a large battle with titans; a chaos daemon states why it chooses to fight on the fantasy world rather then other planets in a chaos army book; people find bolt pistols and chainswords in the chaos wastes and 40K equipment was found on that swamp island campaign; and so on. So if the fantasy world is in the 40K universe even if it is on another galaxy it suggest that the old ones are still a hidden but active force in the 40K universe. As the old ones were on the fantasy world 10,000 years ago doing their thing an engineering life. This would put the old ones in the 40K universe well after the warp plagues. Because unless time travel is put into play how could the old ones exist at the same time as “modern day” 40K equipment if they were completely exterminated 60 million years ago. Plus in the necron codex it makes mention of the descendents of the old ones and suggest playing 40K games incorporating lizardman.

I believe that Games Workshop has officially stated that they're not the same universe; they have a lot of (obvious) parallels, but you can't guarantee that anything will be consistent (which is pretty consistent with their fear of being beholden to any particular rules when it comes to their background). The pretty significant physiological difference between the Orks/Orcs and Elves/Eldar seems to back this up a little; I think the crossovers have pretty much died down, and are pretty much just easter eggs when they appear.

However, both act similar to each other, and look similar to each other, so there's obviously a lot of inter-universe similarities at any rate. I would guess that most things applicable to the Old Ones are applicable in both universes. I don't think there's a timeline in place for the both of them, though (and the warp can throw things through time at any rate).

Kilkrazy wrote:You can define evil as causing harm or injury, which is part of the dictionary definition.
Since harm and injury are objectively determined, this provides a way to analyse evil.

Dictionaries are not law. In fact, they are subjective. A word is a word is a word. They are meaningless unless you give them meaning, if you catch my drift, I am being a bit philosophical.

Dictionaries are meant to relay context, a level of understanding for one who does not understand. I do not often use a dictionary strictly because of this. I use an encyclopedia, which gives a word context. So I guess you could say a dictionary is an abridged encyclopedia, but for grammar and basic definitions.

Good and Evil have more meaning than just "to not cause harm" and "to cause harm." They ARE Yin and Yang, because one follows the other and is, in fact, part of the other. Simply because one is "less" evil does not make them good.

Medicine is a good example. If I had to amputate a limb to save the host, would I be good or evil? I am causing harm. But it is for the better of the person? Perhaps, but what if they die because of my actions? I have caused total harm and not healing. Does that mean I am evil? No. The doctor here is not evil from my stand point, but he did cause harm and death (in my example the patient may have lived without amputation, and may have died without it).

Would a freedom fighter be evil if they cause harm? What if their cause is to free people from tyranny and oppression? But what if those people are completely safe, physically healthy, and economically prosperous. There is nothing wrong with their lives, they just are not happy. So if I were to cause violence (I would ask you to assume it is the only method available), injury and death, would I be evil? My cause may be just and good, but to get to my cause I must do things that in other context may be evil?

To make such broad and simple statements is impractical and poor. The Tau do not care what another people are doing, how happy they are, or how "just" their system of government are anymore than the Imperium. If they do not join them, they will die. Just as the Imperium does. To say they will peacefully take a world is like saying a typhoon peacefully takes an evacuated coastal village. The villagers did not make a peaceful agreement with the typhoon, they had only one choice.

But this isn't even an argument about whether the Tau are "more good" or "less evil" than the Imperium. It is a question of whether or not the Tau are the "good guys" or the "bad guys." I say that is subjective.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:You can define evil as causing harm or injury, which is part of the dictionary definition.
Since harm and injury are objectively determined, this provides a way to analyse evil.

Dictionaries are not law. In fact, they are subjective. A word is a word is a word. They are meaningless unless you give them meaning, if you catch my drift, I am being a bit philosophical.

I'm sure you're being very philosophical however the dictionary contains the language as generally understood. You can be the Red Queen is you like but everyone else won't agree with you.

If you go in the street and ask 100 people anywhere in the world the following questions, what answers do you think you will get?

1. Killing people is (A) Good/(B) Evil.
2. Helping people is (A) Good/(B) Evil.

If I killed Hitler or Osama Bin Laden, would I be doing evil or would I be doing good? What about rapists? Good or evil there? Pedophiles? CEOs of Enron!

As for good: If I help people commit suicide, be an enabler of bad behavior, voted for an illogical government agent....

Hitler = Good it it brings the war to an early end. Benthamite principle of greatest good for the greatest number.
Rapist = Bad. It is a lesser crime than murder and they can be punished another way.
Paedophiles = Ditto.
CEOs of Enron = Ditto.

Helping suicide can be good depending on circumstances.
Helping people do wrong is clearly wrong since you become an agent in their crime.
I don't understand the idea about the illogical government agent.

When you make up this kind of thought experiment you are rehearsing the kind of moral questions that everyone faces every day and solves for themselves, usually on a smaller scale.

Beware the alien, the mutant, the communist.