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ShumaGorath wrote:

IamAz wrote:Well maybe you are all right but this is just they way i see it . Im telling you all one thing , There is no way i could build a church in most middle east countrys .

Yeah, you would need to get signatures, and materials, and then you would actually have to build it.

I love it when people's avatars fit so perfectly to what they're writing.


I'm trying to write something on topic, but I'm not sure how I can contribute at this point.

IamAz wrote:It doesnt work like that though , With religious freedom for other faiths , im losing my freedoms . If i was to go into work tomorrow and say "Hold on a second , The muslim kid is getting time off for a religious holiday so i want christmas off , He would probally laugh at me" but if i was a diffrent faith , they would have to let me otherwise they would be called racist or facist .

What freedom do you lose in that example?

You already lack the ability to take Christmas off, so the presence of a Muslim who is given time off for his religious holiday has no effect on you. About the only thing your pointing out is that you would be jealous of said Muslim, which seems like a better argument for conversion than the banning of minaret construction.

Two minutes on Google shows there are Christian churches in Syria, the Lebanon, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Israel, Dubai and Libya.

Is that enough?

Morocco, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Kuwait. Thats just the ones off the top of my head. There may be some legacy show churches but the Christians there are actively persecuted. Not just can't build a steeple but that whole cut off your head sort of thing.

So we show that we're morally superior to the 'enemy' by emulating him?

I'm pretty sure Nietzsche had something to say about that.

Who cares? It was in German. Now you want to make a point it has to be in Italian, on top of a red Ducatti, with your Italian girlfriend sitting behind you.

I know that completely means nothing to anyone but me, but thats ok...

Some parts of Europe are terified they may lose there way of life because there genorosity has now back fired. The Radical Muslims are gaining ground and out breeding those who are acually citizens. What do you expect them to do? It is there home land not the refugees. I suppose they should welcome them with open arms and that will make them better than them. I suppose that moral high chair will be great once you start eating 16 penny nails at the local market.

dogma wrote:So we show that we're morally superior to the 'enemy' by emulating him?

I'm pretty sure Nietzsche had something to say about that.

Nope as noted in #1 of my two responses. But most of the world is closer to that than the whole freedom of speech, press, assembly, eat ding dongs thing. The concept of Western Freedoms is baseline Western concept vs. large parts of the world (and Switzerland mayhaps)

Is it a good thing?

Frazzled wrote:Morocco, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Kuwait. Thats just the ones off the top of my head. There may be some legacy show churches but the Christians there are actively persecuted. Not just can't build a steeple but that whole cut off your head sort of thing.

Weren't like half of those in africa? If we're jumping landmass categories then indonesia is ok with it and is the largest muslim population in the world.

Whoa, what am I posting? Nevermind this.

Can we just ban all religions now? it would save so much gak and arguments it has to be worth it

JD21290 wrote:Can we just ban all religions now? it would save so much gak and arguments it has to be worth it

Or it would cause virtually every government in the world to be overthrown immediately.

By democratic vote, the swiss voted no to towers of a certain type, apperently they have that right, have used that right, and im ok with it.

I am continually amazed at how fast the Western World has developed this idea that they must be morally superior to everyone else at all times, and yet they emulate democratic forms of government. The two are not always intertwined, especially as morals seem to be changing at all times. Why do you people care? It is THEIR country, I don't really hear the Swiss telling others what to do.

Honestly, I have seen some pretty awful things done in Europe and America by people abusing their freedom. Americans have a harder time understanding how real a problem muslim immigration is for European countries. All of my friends from Europe are fairly tolerant people, but they are all afraid of muslim immigrants trying to change their country to conform more to Sharia law. Is it not the West's responsibility, especially in the face of our own fierce protection of things like women's right, freedom of speech, etc., to temper the ability of people who obviously have no regard for Western values?

Indonesia is far from ok with it. Have any of you actually been to these countrys you are siting from google? I will tell you first hand the glowing reviews CNN gives are far from the truth. This is only my personal experience but you will not find a warm welcome being an open Christian in any Muslim dominated country. For the most part they STFU, keep there heads down and hope like hell they are not scape goated for some reason or another. Also any Christian in Kuwait is not Kuwaiti they are foriegners and have zero rights. Several were killed while I was there in early 2008. Right outside of a US military facility. Several terrorist communitys are paid off by the Kuwaiti Govt to not screw with US forces and allowed to opperate fully under the protection of the Kuwaiti Govt.

I'll agree to the statement on western media (CNN), they do oh so love to twist things.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Morocco, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Kuwait. Thats just the ones off the top of my head. There may be some legacy show churches but the Christians there are actively persecuted. Not just can't build a steeple but that whole cut off your head sort of thing.

Weren't like half of those in africa? If we're jumping landmass categories then indonesia is ok with it and is the largest muslim population in the world.

I didn't speak of the Arabian Peninsula as I don't have contacts there.

Frazzled wrote:
Nope as noted in #1 of my two responses. But most of the world is closer to that than the whole freedom of speech, press, assembly, eat ding dongs thing. The concept of Western Freedoms is baseline Western concept vs. large parts of the world (and Switzerland mayhaps)

Well sure, and I'd be the first person to argue that moral authority isn't really something that anyone can claim at all. What we're really talking about here are the things each of us values in the world, and how we want it to look. That's pretty much the only thing that morality is really about, but it often helps to have the notion laid out in terms that are less heavily loaded.

Honestly, I prefer arguing this thing from practicality. While this move will certainly help to preserve the Swiss cultural heritage it can only do so by effectively drawing a line in the sand that can all to quickly turn into a trench dotted with machine gun emplacements (in a figurative sense). Now, I suppose there might be people in Switzerland that are willing to fight for their cultural purity, and they have the right to do so. However, we also have the right to accost them for their romantic stupidity, just as we do so when discussing the same in sort of behavior in Islamic nations.

If the middle east are so "Accepting" of christians , how come all of our priests that have gone there to help during the iraq war have been attacked , captured and in quite a few cases murdered for nothing more than trying to help people ? By the way , I find it quite hard to belive that iran have any churches ? They hate the west and christianity . They've just arrested a group of british sailors again !

Because us Westerners have been so universally innocent and free from fault of our own.

I guess if its not one ethnic group its another. Ignorance begets ignorance.

dogma wrote:

Honestly, I prefer arguing this thing from practicality. While this move will certainly help to preserve the Swiss cultural heritage it can only do so by effectively drawing a line in the sand that can all to quickly turn into a trench dotted with machine gun emplacements (in a figurative sense). Now, I suppose there might be people in Switzerland that are willing to fight for their cultural purity, and they have the right to do so. However, we also have the right to accost them for their romantic stupidity, just as we do so when discussing the same in sort of behavior in Islamic nations.

Yea but do we? Do we really criticize Islamic nations? Look at the flack other posters are getting on this thread for doing that? I can't say where we have missionaries at for of reprisal against them-real gonna kill you level reprisal, but we can discuss this minnaret nonsense, tut tut tut and look down on the Swiss. There is so much hypocrisy here it almost equals my own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JD21290 wrote:Can we just ban all religions now? it would save so much gak and arguments it has to be worth it

If you banned religion you'd have to get rid of that avatar. Frankly Dakka will not permit such crimes against Humanity to occur.

I'm guessing things in america are not as bad as they are here , I honestly belive that most people feel the same way as me , People here dont want foreign beliefs forced upon us , We are being overrun with muslims and eastern europeans and they just wont adjust to our way of life , They honestly belive we should act and behave like them , How can any of you tell me that this is right ?

IamAz wrote:If the middle east are so "Accepting" of christians , how come all of our priests that have gone there to help during the iraq war have been attacked , captured and in quite a few cases murdered for nothing more than trying to help people ? By the way , I find it quite hard to belive that iran have any churches ? They hate the west and christianity . They've just arrested a group of british sailors again !

Most Muslim countries do have Christians. They are factions though and more like tribes. Justy like Muslims. We as a Western Society have been screwed by them just as many times as Muslims have boned us. The reason Christians are left alone for the most part is they are just as damn crazy as the Muslims over there. They are not your grandma going to sunday mass. They are just as willing to strap a bomb on there chest and blow themselves up as any Jahadist. Irans leader of the Revolutionary guard was killed recently in one such attack. The Christians in those countries tolerate a few persecutions, as I said they generally keep to themselves but will fight like hell once they have been provoked. They do not have a very nice existance but they do have churches all over Arabia and Africa.

To the above poster, we have the same issue with Latin America over running the southern borders. Problem is, America is so damn big it does not effect anyone else for the most part. By the time it does it will be to late. I guess that is another topic entirly though.

IamAz wrote:All im saying is that I'm not a racist , I'm not a Facist . But in my country which is the UK , I am treated like a second class citizen because all of these immigrants and people of non-mainstream british faiths are given more rights due to the media turning people against anyone who says otherwise . If im unemployed or homeless , I would get nothing . If your foreign you get given a nice cushy house for you and the 30+ family members with benifits from taxpayers money . I'm not trying to be rude to other faiths or suggest that we should ban temples and mosques but there should be equal rights and the freedom of speech should actually mean what its supposed to mean !

Wait, do you only want the law to stop making a distinction between Muslims and Christians, or do you want the law to come down and force other people to treat you equal to Muslims?

Because they're pretty different wishes. Freedom of Speech is the freedom to call people racist because they don't like burkas, regardless of whether it's sensible to do so.

JEB_Stuart wrote:I am continually amazed at how fast the Western World has developed this idea that they must be morally superior to everyone else at all times, and yet they emulate democratic forms of government. The two are not always intertwined, especially as morals seem to be changing at all times. Why do you people care? It is THEIR country, I don't really hear the Swiss telling others what to do.

Honestly, I have seen some pretty awful things done in Europe and America by people abusing their freedom. Americans have a harder time understanding how real a problem muslim immigration is for European countries. All of my friends from Europe are fairly tolerant people, but they are all afraid of muslim immigrants trying to change their country to conform more to Sharia law. Is it not the West's responsibility, especially in the face of our own fierce protection of things like women's right, freedom of speech, etc., to temper the ability of people who obviously have no regard for Western values?

Like I said, they're afraid that democracy will trample their rights so they use democracy to trample the rights of others. It's going to be the noose they're hanged with. They need to establish protections against this kind of thing, not precedence.

mstersmith wrote:The Christians in those countries tolerate a few persecutions, as I said they generally keep to themselves but will fight like hell once they have been provoked. They do not have a very nice existance but they do have churches all over Arabia and Africa.

But they are persecuted.

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:

Honestly, I prefer arguing this thing from practicality. While this move will certainly help to preserve the Swiss cultural heritage it can only do so by effectively drawing a line in the sand that can all to quickly turn into a trench dotted with machine gun emplacements (in a figurative sense). Now, I suppose there might be people in Switzerland that are willing to fight for their cultural purity, and they have the right to do so. However, we also have the right to accost them for their romantic stupidity, just as we do so when discussing the same in sort of behavior in Islamic nations.

Yea but do we? Do we really criticize Islamic nations? Look at the flack other posters are getting on this thread for doing that? I can't say where we have missionaries at for of reprisal against them-real gonna kill you level reprisal, but we can discuss this minnaret nonsense, tut tut tut and look down on the Swiss. There is so much hypocrisy here it almost equals my own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JD21290 wrote:Can we just ban all religions now? it would save so much gak and arguments it has to be worth it

If you banned religion you'd have to get rid of that avatar. Frankly Dakka will not permit such crimes against Humanity to occur.

I think common consensus is that most mid eastern countries are gak holes that no one here wants to live in, and we expected better from the swiss. You're confusing disapproval of the swiss for approval of those they seem to be emulating.

JD21290 wrote:Can we just ban all religions now? it would save so much gak and arguments it has to be worth it

It would solve a lot of problems. imho of course.

JEB_Stuart wrote:All of my friends from Europe are fairly tolerant people, but they are all afraid of muslim immigrants trying to change their country to conform more to Sharia law.

I think that's kinda what I was trying to say in my last post post, before I threw the thought away. I want to betolerant and all, but you hear so much "bad" stuff about muslims libing in western countries these days, with forced mariages, honor murders and the like, it's hard not to be afraid.

And the prize for insight goes to Orkeosaurus. Agreed with your points.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:

Honestly, I prefer arguing this thing from practicality. While this move will certainly help to preserve the Swiss cultural heritage it can only do so by effectively drawing a line in the sand that can all to quickly turn into a trench dotted with machine gun emplacements (in a figurative sense). Now, I suppose there might be people in Switzerland that are willing to fight for their cultural purity, and they have the right to do so. However, we also have the right to accost them for their romantic stupidity, just as we do so when discussing the same in sort of behavior in Islamic nations.

Yea but do we? Do we really criticize Islamic nations? Look at the flack other posters are getting on this thread for doing that? I can't say where we have missionaries at for of reprisal against them-real gonna kill you level reprisal, but we can discuss this minnaret nonsense, tut tut tut and look down on the Swiss. There is so much hypocrisy here it almost equals my own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JD21290 wrote:Can we just ban all religions now? it would save so much gak and arguments it has to be worth it

If you banned religion you'd have to get rid of that avatar. Frankly Dakka will not permit such crimes against Humanity to occur.

I think common consensus is that most mid eastern countries are gak holes that no one here wants to live in, and we expected better from the swiss. You're confusing disapproval of the swiss for approval of those they seem to be emulating.

Not seeing a lot of dissapproval of the Mideast myself.