Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dude, learn to chill. It's common for people to seek rascist images/remarks if one is prone to doing so. If a person is so enthused by the fact that there may be a racial subtext in any form of media or even in the way the world spins, then they will seek it even if they can only grasp at straws.
For example, I find the N word offensive for several reasons(black relatives, people are too stupid to stop using it) as do several people that I know. One of these freinds was on a bus and a black guy was watching the boondocks at a high volume. My friend asked him to turn it down and the black guy insisted that my friend was a "white devil trying to put him down". In this case a person found rascism in his own mind, in a case that really had no rascism.

Avatar really is not rascist, it uses a stereotype that is based off of not just native americans, but many of the first peoples. They use primitive weapons and wear little clothing which is akin to just about any prehistoric person. They also worship nature and live together with it as did many ancient cultures and even the druids in europe. The closest thing they have is that it's like the european settlers coming to the new world. I find several discrepencies though;

1) The new world was seen as a wondeful place to start again.
2) The settlers were actual settlers and did not consist of only people who wanted some resource, but instead wanted a new life(ie, most of New England and the area around wisconsin).
3) In the real world, some of the settlers tried to coexist with the native people.
4) In some areas the natives just plain didn't like the settlers, and both sides tried acts of violence(ie, killing men, women, and children).

Someone picked up a hint of potential rascism and broadcast in hopes that people with rascist radars would also pick up on the signal.

The Associated Press wrote:Since the film opened to widespread critical acclaim three weeks ago, hundreds of blog posts, newspaper articles, tweets and YouTube videos have said things such as the film is "a fantasy about race told from the point of view of white people" and that it reinforces "the white Messiah fable."

Hurm... Reminds me of something...

John 4:21-23 Avatar
Jesus Jake declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father Awa neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem on Pandora. You Samaritans Na'vi worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews humans."

Conclusion: Cameron is a sexist bigot that plagiarized the Bible.
/sarcasm=off

Back on topic, like Wrex said, depression is a serious problem. Triggers can be anywhere and be anything, but very from person to person.
Take me, for example: I once started crying (not a little trickle, full man tears) in a Chili's restaurant because their Country Fried Steak tasted like my late mother's recipe.

Mock me if you will, but I became hopelessly distraught for about 3 hours because a piece of delicious deep-fried meat made me miss my mom.

The Twelve Steps to Recovery wrote:
Step 1: Admit you are powerless over (what ever your affliction) and that your life is unmanageable....

There are people crying out for help because they have lost their hope in humanity and in themselves, and you guys mock them and make jokes about them at their expense.


I am disappoint, Dakka. I am disappoint...

Ahtman wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Wow, neither of you really understand the argument yet are able to put it into such simplistic terms to try and dismiss it out of hand. Ignorance and lack of proper research all in one fell swoop. Hooray!

I researched it and found the arguments silly. That's the reason I say some people are prone to overreact and find offense where none was intended.

Again, if you had done research you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss with a wave of your hand and monocle firmly in place. You can disagree, but you aren't just disagreeing, you are belittling the people just because you lack their perspective. You also seem to be treating racism as if it were a single type of expression where it is not. Not all racism is as overt or purposeful as a cross burning in a front yard. The arguments aren't as simplistic as you are presenting them, and by doing so you are doing a disservice to yourself and to the greater dialogue on the subject. It could also just be that you are so submersed into white privilege that you can't see out of it. Like people who dismissed minorities that complained that police treated them differently when they got pulled over and they were dismissed. Guess what, they were treated differently, it wasn't just a made up story.

This gets funnier by the minute. A few posts earlier, you call people "Jagoffs" because they might be suffering from depression for what might be deeper circumstances than you realize or care to look into. Then you turn around and say I'm into white privilige so deep that I wave a dismissive hand at people that say Avatar is racist because they claim it took a white man to save 8' tall blue aliens. Then you go on to talk about traffic stops for some reason I can't see.
I say give it a rest, it was just a movie. But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...

Besides twisting my words (there is no real comparison between this and what I said before Scarecrow) because you can't actually refute my argument without doing you also show a profound misunderstanding/ignorance of the following:

History
Literature
Sociology
Cinema
Psychology

I would have included reading comprehension, because I think it is true, but that would be mean so I won't.

That's me, just a caveman suckin' down mint julips on my front porch listening to the happy sounds of the blue aliens we humans have saved as they work my fields.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tblock1984 wrote:

The Associated Press wrote:Since the film opened to widespread critical acclaim three weeks ago, hundreds of blog posts, newspaper articles, tweets and YouTube videos have said things such as the film is "a fantasy about race told from the point of view of white people" and that it reinforces "the white Messiah fable."

Hurm... Reminds me of something...

John 4:21-23 Avatar
Jesus Jake declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father Awa neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem on Pandora. You Samaritans Na'vi worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews humans."

Conclusion: Cameron is a sexist bigot that plagiarized the Bible.
/sarcasm=off

Back on topic, like Wrex said, depression is a serious problem. Triggers can be anywhere and be anything, but very from person to person.
Take me, for example: I once started crying (not a little trickle, full man tears) in a Chili's restaurant because their Country Fried Steak tasted like my late mother's recipe.

Mock me if you will, but I became hopelessly distraught for about 3 hours because a piece of delicious deep-fried meat made me miss my mom.

The Twelve Steps to Recovery wrote:
Step 1: Admit you are powerless over (what ever your affliction) and that your life is unmanageable....

There are people crying out for help because they have lost their hope in humanity and in themselves, and you guys mock them and make jokes about them at their expense.


I am disappoint, Dakka. I am disappoint...

I think you hit it on the head with the trigger comment.

Relapse wrote:I think you hit it on the head with the trigger comment.

Manchu wrote:

Relapse wrote:But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...

Please stop opening old wounds!

It only gets worse. Will Smith then had to be the one to take on a planet full of mutants...and we all know he's black. Will Hollywood never get over giving us these snubs masquarading as entertainment?

Relapse wrote:But then again, Blade offended me because it took a black man to kill vampires. I'm so depressed about this...

Yeah, thing is that Blade is one movie. Avatar is one movie in a lengthy history of film, in which . Personally I think that tying Avatar to that heritage is a stretch, and am not convinced about the racism of the white man saving the natives in most cases. Generally a man from a Western culture is placed in the central role as they want a viewpoint character, and want the audience to imagine themselves becoming part of the culture.

But it's important to understand that while a single film might not be racist, it can form a part of trend that as a whole begins to take on racist elements. It isn't racist for the black guy to get killed in a horror movie, but when the black gets offed in every horror movie it begins to form an unhealthy pattern. It isn't bigoted to kill the gay guy in an action movie, but can you name an action movie where the gay dude lives?

Effeminate male villians tend to die less painfully, than their grizzled counterparts. Is there a trend against grizzled male villians?

I understand your point, but considering the vast expanse that hollywood film actually encompasses, I simply cannot take any 'trend' all that seriously.

'An unhealthy pattern' = Not seeing movies made by a specific director or studio, and clearly explaining the trend set by said director/producer/actor/studio, etc... I see none of these trends spelling out anything besides, people love to pick on Hollywood... because they get to have their own sign.

I mean, I DON'T GET MY OWN SIGN. WTH!

It isn't bigoted to kill the gay guy in an action movie, but can you name an action movie where the gay dude lives?

BTW, are you insinuating that gay male heroes fair better than straight ones? You may have a point in the fact that these roles are slim to none in quantity. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. 'Gay' does make some people uncomfortable, but seeing a gay man, saving the day and getting the man of his dreams is just a matter of time at this point. It would be refreshing as well TBH, the same story told for eons, with a modern spin. Even moderner than a black hero, or a Jewish hero... cheesy to me, but I get it.

Yes. The quirky character tends to get a pretty gnarly stick shoved into their role, but I would hardly call that a huge trend, it is just how many stories work. I can see how the LGBT community could have something to say about the fact that rarely are protagonists gay, but I would have to take into account how small their demographic is... OH! The fact that 'Broke-back Mountain' was such a success, really sways my opinion on this whole sub-topic.

To people saying Hollywood is in fact 'racist', WILL. FREAKING. SMITH.

Chris Rock.
The Wayan's Bros.
Samuel L. Jackson
Halle Berry.

Et. freaking. Cetera.

Wrexasaur wrote:
To people saying Hollywood is in fact 'racist', WILL. FREAKING. SMITH.

Chris Rock.
The Wayan's Bros.
Samuel L. Jackson
Halle Berry.

Et. freaking. Cetera.

Racism is more than just African Americans.

Other than George Lopez and (ugh) Carlos Mencia, how many big Mexicans? How bout Inuits, Native Americans, Indians, Middle Easterners?

Just pointing out how many African American big actors there are doesn't mean there isn't some latent racism inherent in the system.

Also, don't forget, there's plenty of anti-White racism in Hollywod, too(Spike Lee).

Platuan4th wrote:Racism is more than just African Americans.

In the context of Avatar being 'racist', this means absolutely nothing. The fact that the main character started out pink and tiny, yet became physically blue and massive, makes all of this irrelevant IMO. Dances with wolves had more substantial points to pick on, in this respect.

The guy from Avatar, actually became blue... I thought that needed to be said twice.

Other than George Lopez and (ugh) Carlos Mencia, how many big Mexicans? How bout Inuits, Native Americans, Indians, Middle Easterners?

As for the Indians, if Bollywood is not enough to counter that, then I really don't care. For the rest, and I consider this kind of dancing silly, there are several movies starring Native Americans as the protagonists, and 'middle eastern' cinema is becoming more and more popular. It all has to do with the context, and more often than not, the trend is going away from storylines based around whitey Mcwhiterson. More towards complex stories that study many characters, and the role they play in a story. Many people did not like Babel (I enjoyed it somewhat), but the film was pretty decent at pointing out the fact that Brad Pitt was not some sort of Demi-god, amongst ravenous savages.

Just pointing out how many African American big actors there are doesn't mean there isn't some latent racism inherent in the system.

Again, what system? What exactly is it that you mean when you say that? There are several separate studios that are all competing for their market share. Nearly every movie is made with a different staff, that represents sometimes thousands of people. If a fat white guy, sitting in some office, actually is making decisions that actively manipulate hollywood cinema in a 'racist' way; I have never seen or heard of him.

Also, don't forget, there's plenty of anti-White racism in Hollywod, too(Spike Lee).

That is the substance of this topic, I get bored when it boils down to black/white/red/purple... well... more purple would be cool. Hollywood could always use more sparkly characters.

Racism is stupid, there is no two ways around that. What matters, is the fact that people are able to identify with each other, through cinema and the like. As long as it is not going backwards, to a time of blatant racism, all is well in my book. Race 'situations', are inherent to american culture as a whole, and will stay with us for a very long time. Getting past the fact that racism is stupid, and moving towards the fact that no everything need be 'P.C', for the world to go around is a positive goal.

There is no equal opportunity in Hollywood, there is only cashflow. If a 3-headed serpent of doom and pain, and more pain and doom, could sell tickets to movies, I can hardly imagine some studio not grabbing that bastard by the jubblies.

Wrexasaur wrote:BTW, are you insinuating that gay male heroes fair better than straight ones?

I can name a lot of action movie where straight protagonists live, but for gay protagonists the only one I can think of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, and that only does it by deliberately subverting the cliche of the dead gay character.

Oh, and possibly also Top Gun, depending on how you read that volleyball scene.

You may have a point in the fact that these roles are slim to none in quantity. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. 'Gay' does make some people uncomfortable, but seeing a gay man, saving the day and getting the man of his dreams is just a matter of time at this point. It would be refreshing as well TBH, the same story told for eons, with a modern spin. Even moderner than a black hero, or a Jewish hero... cheesy to me, but I get it.

The issue isn't just that these characters are rare, it's that when they're featured they almost always come to a bad end.

Yes. The quirky character tends to get a pretty gnarly stick shoved into their role, but I would hardly call that a huge trend, it is just how many stories work. I can see how the LGBT community could have something to say about the fact that rarely are protagonists gay, but I would have to take into account how small their demographic is... OH! The fact that 'Broke-back Mountain' was such a success, really sways my opinion on this whole sub-topic.

Brokeback was a great movie, and certainly not bigoted. But it fits into another Hollywood cliche, where minority characters are almost always tragic figures. Think about the number of decent gay characters in film, not lady boys played for laughs but actual decent characters - and then think about the number of them that aren't beaten, killed, or contract AIDS.

So, you know, films like Brokeback and Philadelphia aren't bigoted, quite the opposite, but they fit into another unfortunate, long running trend. It is worthwhile identifying those trends, in the hope that future films will look to break them.

To people saying Hollywood is in fact 'racist', WILL. FREAKING. SMITH.

Chris Rock.
The Wayan's Bros.
Samuel L. Jackson
Halle Berry.

It isn't about the idea that black person can or cannot be a leading man. There's a black president but that doesn't mean all issues of race have gone away.

sebster wrote:It isn't about the idea that black person can or cannot be a leading person. There's a black president but that doesn't mean all issues of race have gone away.

FTFY, .

Stupidity will never fail to play a role in human interaction, and because of this, I can safely assume that the black community (you can call them African American if you like, I have no freaking clue where there heritage lays) has a large role to play in the current mainstream media. Let me be clearer, because I know that sounded odd.

There is no reason that some moron with stupid ideas about 'superior races', should be able to effect how I live my life, and react to cinema. If there are industry professionals that place their career on that theme, I don't know about them. I am specifically talking about Hollywood, not Glenn Beck, and other random cable crap.

Spike lee has done more to cause a rift in this respect than Mel Gibson ever had, in other words. This as well, appears to be little more than stirring the pot, of the would be socially accepted norms that we all live with on a daily basis. Spike lee also may be considered a very major player in the way that Hollywood has approached many of these issues, for better or for worse.

I would like to think it were for the better...

Wrexasaur wrote:FTFY, .

Stupidity will never fail to play a role in human interaction, and because of this, I can safely assume that the black community (you can call them African American if you like, I have no freaking clue where there heritage lays) has a large role to play in the current mainstream media. Let me be clearer, because I know that sounded odd.

There is no reason that some moron with stupid ideas about 'superior races', should be able to effect how I live my life, and react to cinema. If there are industry professionals that place their career on that theme, I don't know about them. I am specifically talking about Hollywood, not Glenn Beck, and other random cable crap.

Are you reading what I'm saying, like even skimming my posts? Because you're not addressing the point I'm making at all.

This is not about issues of racial superiority or of explicit racism. You realise that not all issues of race are about one group believing it is superior to another, yeah? It certainly isn't about producers saying 'you cannot be in this movie because I hate black people'. It is about racism that is almost always unintentional, but still something that needs to be recognised and addressed. It is about the same issues that appearing in movie after movie - the black guy is always killed in horror movies, the gay guy always has a tragic life, the saviour of the indigenous culture is always a white guy.

When people talk about Avatar having problems with race, this is what they are referring to. I don't agree with them, but to have that discussion you have to start from a foundation where you understand there's more to racism in media than race supremacy.

Are you reading what I'm saying, like even skimming my posts? Because you're not addressing the point I'm making at all.

Yes, I am reading your posts sebster.

This is not about issues of racial superiority or of explicit racism. You realise that not all issues of race are about one group believing it is superior to another, yeah?

The fact that you are talking about minor roles, wherein the black person plays a character that dies because of incompetence, A.), B.), or C.), there is a real presence of 'racial superiority' in the conversation. All the white people live, while the token black man dies, is a topic of racial superiority, explicitly. This does not assume that Hollywood has a grudge against the token black guy of course.

It certainly isn't about producers saying 'you cannot be in this movie because I hate black people'.

Ignorance is not based in the fact that someone is hateful.

It is about racism that is almost always unintentional, but still something that needs to be recognised and addressed. It is about the same issues that appearing in movie after movie - the black guy is always killed in horror movies, the gay guy always has a tragic life, the saviour of the indigenous culture is always a white guy.

That is certainly a problem, or at least was to a much larger degree in the past. Mainly, I do hope that old stories get 're-borne' to be accessible to a larger audience.

When people talk about Avatar having problems with race, this is what they are referring to. I don't agree with them, but to have that discussion you have to start from a foundation where you understand there's more to racism in media than race supremacy.

Race supremacy is the key note, of racism. The fact that one 'race', is assumed weaker/stupider/greedier, etc... assumes that others are not. All subtly aside, there is no difference, besides the notions that people prefer to attach to the subject.

I'd like to point out that most of the people I work with are Navajo or from Mexico and points south of there. These were the guys that told me I, ought to go see Avatar, it's a great movie and that they had seen it a few times themselves.


edited for spelling

I have a black friend and he told me....

Manchu wrote:I remember coming across the "transporters could totally work" people as a kid. I don't remember the "I am a reincarnated Copper Dragon" people.

Also, I'm guessing you meant "no historical basis."

You just mentioned my favorite type of dragon It's a shame I was reincarnated from a Bronze though.

Ahtman wrote:I have a black friend and he told me....

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

Every film to ever come out until the end of time (since we are stuck in this PC nonsense) will piss someone off or offend someone.

People need thicker skins and to quit acting like a movie like Avatar is out to degrade or humiliate their race.

Fateweaver wrote:Every film to ever come out until the end of time (since we are stuck in this PC nonsense) will piss someone off or offend someone.

People need thicker skins and to quit acting like a movie like Avatar is out to degrade or humiliate their race.

I'm half "Native American" and I feel degraded and humiliated by this movie.....no,wait..it wasn't the movie..it was that long walk and those "free" blankets.

dont you know the rule? nothing is free.

I'm half-German but I don't protest movie studios when they make the stereotypical "German" extra into a bad guy.

I guess I should take offense because I'm caucasian and all this movie did was portray caucasians as land grabbing donkey-caves.

I take offense at being referred to as a "land grabber". I'm just an donkey-cave, nothing more, nothing less.

Fateweaver wrote:I'm half-German but I don't protest movie studios when they make the stereotypical "German" extra into a bad guy.

I guess I should take offense because I'm caucasian and all this movie did was portray caucasians as land grabbing donkey-caves.

I take offense at being referred to as a "land grabber". I'm just an donkey-cave, nothing more, nothing less.

Well I'll be I'm half German as well , guess your not a "half" bad guy there Fate.
As for being "land grabbers"...my Father might have a few word on that subject,but nontheless..I can agree with you concerning Hollywood "racial" depictions,basicly I chalk that up to most film producers/writers living in their own little bubbles with no clue as to what the feth is going on in the world around them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

garret wrote:dont you know the rule? nothing is free.

Google "Native American/small pox"

Herpes is a great one. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

Free too unless you buy a hooker who has it (though I'd wager most hookers are probably cleaner than most bar hogs).

Relapse wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I have a black friend and he told me....

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

That doesn't make any sense as a response.

Just knowing a few people doesn't give you greater insight to a culture, it means you know those people. I know a bunch of Lakota and Miami but they are no more homogeneous than the African-American community. At best it is hearsay and not reliable.

I also think it is funny that the people that are coming across as outraged are the ones having a hissy fit about perceiving others to be outraged. No one has said they were pissed about this or is protesting. No one in this thread, or that poorly researched Yahoo article, have called for James Cameron's head or wished ill will on the principles involved. No one has specifically called them racists either. Recognition of a pattern does not imply anger, it shows critical thinking and analysis. These things are in degrees, but if one can only discern things in binary terms it is impossible to grasp. As I have said before I enjoyed the movie but that doesn't mean I'm blind to it's shortcomings or it's place in a larger cinematic oeuvre.

FITZZ wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

garret wrote:dont you know the rule? nothing is free.

Google "Native American/small pox"

oh probly not very nice on my part. sorry.

hmmm..........if they can be a 10 foot tall na'vi (or whatever the hell they're called) than i could easly be a 9 foot tall space marin right

I kinda sympothize with them. im upset i can go to to the heavy metal word of brutal legend.

Ahtman wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I have a black friend and he told me....

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

That doesn't make any sense as a response.

Just knowing a few people doesn't give you greater insight to a culture, it means you know those people. I know a bunch of Lakota and Miami but they are no more homogeneous than the African-American community. At best it is hearsay and not reliable.

I also think it is funny that the people that are coming across as outraged are the ones having a hissy fit about perceiving others to be outraged. No one has said they were pissed about this or is protesting. No one in this thread, or that poorly researched Yahoo article, have called for James Cameron's head or wished ill will on the principles involved. No one has specifically called them racists either. Recognition of a pattern does not imply anger, it shows critical thinking and analysis. These things are in degrees, but if one can only discern things in binary terms it is impossible to grasp. As I have said before I enjoyed the movie but that doesn't mean I'm blind to it's shortcomings or it's place in a larger cinematic oeuvre.

See that? You're already talking your way through it! The first steps to recovery.

I see you have given up any semblance of trying to discuss this. I expected as much awhile ago but this sort of seals it. Silly me for feeding you.

FITZZ wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I'm half-German but I don't protest movie studios when they make the stereotypical "German" extra into a bad guy.

I guess I should take offense because I'm caucasian and all this movie did was portray caucasians as land grabbing donkey-caves.

I take offense at being referred to as a "land grabber". I'm just an donkey-cave, nothing more, nothing less.

Well I'll be I'm half German as well , guess your not a "half" bad guy there Fate.
As for being "land grabbers"...my Father might have a few word on that subject,but nontheless..I can agree with you concerning Hollywood "racial" depictions,basicly I chalk that up to most film producers/writers living in their own little bubbles with no clue as to what the feth is going on in the world around them.

It's an unfortunate part of human history that the stronger will often take from the weak. The Black Hills had been fought over by the different tribes in the region for centuries before White men came, as an example. Around here, the Hopi and Navajo sometimes get into it because the Navajo pushed the Hopi off their land, and Aztecs weren't exactly sweethearts to those around them.
Something that I haven't heard complained about anywhere is how the Marines are depicted as villains almost to a man with no redeeming qualities at all.

That being said, I don't mind at all the thought of the Saints totaly taking over the field from the Cardinals.