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I think Wrex has it. I myself tried other drugs because I have an addictive personality and I don't have a lot of respect for the law. I can't blame weed for me trying psychadelic mushrooms, I tried them because I wanted to. No person or substance made me do it, I did. I think it all depends on the individual really. The reason I believe the statistc supports the gateway drug theory is because people who want to do alot of drugs almost have to try weed first. It's hard to buy meth off a guy if your not willing to even smoke a joint, it makes you look fishy. It's also hard to find meth if you can't at least find weed. I don't know a drug dealer around here who doesnt smoke pot, (except the heroin dealers, they don't like weed for some reason). Its totally graduating up to harder stuff, but you either have the intent to graduate or you don't.

@Manchu: It's deffinietly more of a social thing I believe.

ShumaGorath wrote:Statistics prove the gateway drug theory right. The causes are many and manifold, but statistically if you take pot you are an order of magnitude more likely to try the next thing up on the chain.

It's never -just- the pot Shuma. That's like saying violent videogames are responsible for most gun crimes.

More often it's the social factors surrounding the person's life at the time of their first use, their ability to make judgements, as well as the user's age. It's not so much that weed is a gateway drug, as it is young teens are very easily sucked into things by peer pressure. They're often afraid to say no because they're worried about what others would think, or they don't want to be shunned by a new group that they're hanging out with. They're more likely to try something because their friends and others are doing it. It's popular amongst their group. And popularity is a terrible weapon when it's wielded improperly.

As well, kids will try drugs as a means to get away from an abusive or otherwise harsh home life. I know a number of people that I went to highschool with that had drug problems because of physical abuse, their parents' marriage separation, just generally crappy parents that never taught them the risks, etc...

And then there's just a lack of willpower. Weed won't change that. If a kid can't tell right from wrong and a good idea from a bad one, then they're going to get sucked in if their friends don't stop them. Sadly, most kids don't do anything and end up playing the silent witness.

That's not to say the "Gateway" theory is totally debunked, but it's a lot less accurate than those that created it would have you believe.

@Shuma & Wrex: My question is not aimed at whether or not marijuana is indeed a gateway drug but whether or not this is because of its intrinsic chemical qualities or because of social conditions created by making it illegal.

One would assume both. Drugs wouldn't be prevalent if they didn't have an effect, and wouldn't be used if everyone had happy full lives.

It's never -just- the pot Shuma. That's like saying violent videogames are responsible for most gun crimes.

Which is why i said the reasons were many and manifold.

Shuma wrote:One would assume both. Drugs wouldn't be prevalent if they didn't have an effect, and wouldn't be used if everyone had happy full lives.

I basically agree with Shuma on this one. It is both, and both sides have very clear effects on the individual, even if the individual is the one to make that choice.

There is both a stigma on pot, as well as a community that could be considered obsessed with it.

From what I've read/heard, the idea that pot chemically causes your body to yearn for "harder" drugs is mythological and so bunk that it is being replaced with the newer myth (that some one already brought up) of buying marijuana laced with "harder" drugs.

Manchu wrote:From what I've read/heard, the idea that pot chemically causes your body to yearn for "harder" drugs is mythological and so bunk that it is being replaced with the newer myth (that some one already brought up) of buying marijuana laced with "harder" drugs.

I never understood that one. We certainly don't have that going on here. If people are lacing pot it's for their own personal use. Weed is cheap in these parts, almost $10 a gram, which is pretty good. Heroin, meth, cocaine all of these are much more expensive than pot, sometimes twice to five times as much. If a dealer was to lace the weed he sold he would only lose money, and send business to the meth labs. Besides if people want to buy pot you don't need to lace it to get it sold, it does that just fine on its own.

ShumaGorath wrote:

It's never -just- the pot Shuma. That's like saying violent videogames are responsible for most gun crimes.

Which is why i said the reasons were many and manifold.

And you're right in that, but that partially contrasts the gateway theory, which states that there is a solid link between use of soft drugs and harder sustances such as cocaine or meth. There're plenty of instances where the gateway theory has been shown to still be nothing more than that, so saying it's been proven to be right isn't exactly correct.

metallifan wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

It's never -just- the pot Shuma. That's like saying violent videogames are responsible for most gun crimes.

Which is why i said the reasons were many and manifold.

And you're right in that, but that partially contrasts the gateway theory, which states that there is a solid link between use of soft drugs and harder sustances such as cocaine or meth. There're plenty of instances where the gateway theory has been shown to still be nothing more than that, so saying it's been proven to be right isn't exactly correct.

There is no gateway theory. There is a proven and easily recorded link between pot use and the use of harder drugs later. The theory is only in the explanation of cause, and those explanations exist in multiplicity, while the answer likely lies with all theories being true to an extent.

In -some- cases, there has been a link. But consider how many that count is, compared to how many people have smoked pot and -not- gone on to harder drugs, and it's a large enough contrast for the findings of the gateway theory to easily be considered debatable at best.

The theory tends to lean more towards placing blame on the drug itself as the catalyst, and less on the surroundings. I would say it's far more plausible and accurate to look at it the other way around.

There are also many people who smoke pot and aren't as open about it as others. I had several teachers who smoked weed but couldn't be up front about it or they'd lose their jobs. I figure theres alot of similar cases that don't get figured into the statistics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thought this would lighten the mood a little about the whole gateway drug discussion, also I'm sleep deprived and I find it funny.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1301#comic

Norwulf wrote:@bluntmandc: how is weed dangerous? I guess getting arrested can be dangerous. also I don't understand why using medical marijuana for non terminal patients is a joke.

most people smoke pot with tobbaco = a danger, the same reason medical marijana, an inhaler type device would be far better delivery systm for THC, also the deminished reflex time is the same as a drunk person so drug driving is just as stupid and dangerous, then there are the long term health issues. do you know why you get a high cos THC a complex organic molecule interacts with your brain its basic science and to think that it won't do stuff to your brain through continued longterm use is nieve.

BluntmanDC wrote: do you know why you get a high cos THC a complex organic molecule interacts with your brain its basic science and to think that it won't do stuff to your brain through continued longterm use is nieve.

First of all, there's no such thing as 'basic science'.

Second, if there were such a thing as 'basic science' the interaction of organic compounds under the auspices of the human metabolism would not be classified as such.

Third, there is no solid evidence to suggest that marijuana use has major, long term side effects.

You have a hypothesis, and you're trying to use emotion to prove it. Bad form.

Legalize it! the only reason it's illegal is because the USA (who would've thought..) kicked out a campaign in the 40's ,iirc, to illegalize it saying that it damages your brain and you'd become schizophrenic and a psycho...yeah!

In Japan, it is a major taboo if only in the last 60 or so years. There was an interesting story in the Daily Yomiuri online the other day which highlights the general cultural difference in attitude towards Low Bottom Leaf.

A few teenage girls, ages 14-16, were arrested in Kobe for smoking Pot. The girls, some of whom worked in Hostess bars, had been smoking it for about a year when they were arrested by Police. Now, as a Westerner, I don't have a big problem with teenagers smoking up. I did it. My siblings did it. I'm willing to wager almost every boss and teacher I ever had probably did it at one time or another. However, 14, 15 and 16 year old girls working in bars where creepy 50+ year old guys come in to drink, try to look up their skirts and buy their underwear? I find that a lot more disturbing. Yet, the Japanese people I have spoken with about this always parrot "Taima zeitai dame" - "Weed is totally bad news." And say nothing about essentially middle school aged girls working in an environment full of middle aged perverts.

It's all a matter of perspective. I say legalise it.

Then we should all hang out and play some Tekken and chip in for a Pizza.

Tourneys wouldn't be the same without it.

The really really dumb thing about the 'war on drugs' is that the majority of issues associated with drugs stem directly or indirectly from it's illegal status. Prohibition has actually caused far more issues than it solves. In fact it solves nothing apart from giving moralists a sense of smug satisfaction.

Here's a cracking example. Below is an advert for FRANK, a drugs advisory services. Watch it.




OK lets look at the issues it brings up shall we?

First the dead dog. Well yes it's nasty but glosses over the fact that the only reason this inhumane method of smugging is even used is because it's a controlled substance and cannot be brought in legitimately.

Next the 'dealer', again glossing over the fact that crime and violence are only involved in the distribution of drugs is precisely because it's illegal! It's a self fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one.

Cut with 70% rubbish? Again only because no legal standards can be enforced because the criminal element is involved, again because it's illegal!

I could go on but the hypocrisy is fairly clear.

dogma wrote:First of all, there's no such thing as 'basic science'.

I agree that there is no solid evidence seeing as long term effects can't be seen over30 years until long term tests can be taken, but come on thats were you start attacking me a figure of speech, it was ment figuratively not litterally, come on.

weed is for kids. Anyone who is out of full time education and still doing it more than the odd spliff at the end of a friday night out needs to sort their life out.

@whatwhat - Toy soldiers are for kids too. I'm guessing you might need to sort your life out as well.


@Everyone else - It's my belief that the whole 'gateway' thing has a lot to do with the fact that weed brings people into contact with dealers, making it easier for the people who wish to experiment to get hold of certain stuff. That was certainly the case in my experience, but I was always going to try other stuff, weed has nothing to with it - I stuck with weed and didn't become a coke-head so good times!

Im on the legalize it wagon. Im from Michigan, and just the amount of money that would be generated alone would pretty much save this state from the gak hole it has become. I think it needs to be regulated and taxed like alcohol and such.

Also it would stop wasting prison space for people that sell pot. The whole 3 strikes rule is a bit ridiculous IMO when someone that was caught selling/smoking pot goes to prison for over 50 years.

The 'gateway' theory is a nonsense. Saying that heavy drugs users may have once smoked weed is utterly irrelevant as:

A) They will also have likely tried Tobacco, Alcohol and Caffeine before that. Why does the 'gateway' argument not apply to them?

B) The vast majority of people whop smoke weed go onto do nothing more serious.

Seriously it's stupid that society is criminalising thousands of people who have never harmed anybody. It's total waste of time and money.

whatwhat wrote:weed is for kids. Anyone who is out of full time education and still doing it more than the odd spliff at the end of a friday night out needs to sort their life out.

Get out of your ivory tower.

The way i see it. Is that when you legalize weed the whole "It is cool because it is illigal" part goes away. I think it is mostly because of that teens start smoking, drinking etc. etc.

Oh and people do know that it is illegal to sell or own weed in The Netherlands (Amsterdam beeing the capital)

Grtz
L.D.

The really really dumb thing about the 'war on drugs' is that the majority of issues associated with drugs stem directly or indirectly from it's illegal status. Prohibition has actually caused far more issues than it solves. In fact it solves nothing apart from giving moralists a sense of smug satisfaction.

The war on drugs primarily targets heroin, cocaine, and meth. Drugs I certainly hope you don't also want legalized.

Lord Demon wrote:The way i see it. Is that when you legalize weed the whole "It is cool because it is illigal" part goes away. I think it is mostly because of that teens start smoking, drinking etc. etc.

Oh and people do know that it is illegal to sell or own weed in The Netherlands (Amsterdam beeing the capital)

Grtz
L.D.

Seriously?! When I was there I was baked the entire time. I don't think I sobered up until after I had been back in Durham for a few days. I always thought teens started pounding the booze and blazing for the experience of an altered state of consciousness. Smoking cigarettes on the other hand just makes you "cool".

I have been officially "uncool" for 2 years and my lungs are happy.

I can say from experience it does affect you long term.

I graduated with classmates that started doing it in HS and now 15 years later they talk like they got punched in the head too many times, they are constantly on edge and paranoid.

When I am talking to a 34yo man who has been smoking weed for 18 years and I know they haven't suffered any traumatic head injuries but the way they talk would make Cheech and Chong during their most baked in a movie sound intelligent and normal than what else could explain it?

People don't just normally become slowed without something happening to their brain.

Fateweaver wrote:I can say from experience it does affect you long term.

I graduated with classmates that started doing it in HS and now 15 years later they talk like they got punched in the head too many times, they are constantly on edge and paranoid.

When I am talking to a 34yo man who has been smoking weed for 18 years and I know they haven't suffered any traumatic head injuries but the way they talk would make Cheech and Chong during their most baked in a movie sound intelligent and normal than what else could explain it?

People don't just normally become slowed without something happening to their brain.

I see your point,but as a counter point I know many people who started smoking weed in HS and have gone on to manage companies,run business and have perfectly "sucesfull" lives,and they have been smoking weed since HS.
In many cases the "burnt out stoner" your refering to wasn't so bright even before he smoked his first joint.

I imagine it comes down to how often and how much.

Smoking a dub once a week I'm sure is a lot less harmful than smoking 3 or 4 dubs a day (and I know people like that).

Alcohol is the same way. 1 glass of wine a day is NOT going to mess up your body. Your liver can handle 1 glass of wine without getting fethed up. When you drink an entire bottle or 3 of wine per day it will cause long term affects.

Vitamins are dangerous in mass quantities. Too much of certain vitamins is dangerous.

So no I don't believe smoking a dub a week is going to feth up your brain but I know from experience that smoking 3 or 4 per day WILL.

So, in that regard alcohol is no more dangerous than weed (that and there has been more drug deals involving weed involving violence than violence over a keg of beer or case of beer).

Fateweaver wrote:I graduated with classmates that started doing it in HS and now 15 years later they talk like they got punched in the head too many times, they are constantly on edge and paranoid.

Not as if people are different, and some are just naturally on edge and paranoid. Have you seen them off of pot BTW? Let them stop smoking for a year or so, most people do not remain that way, unless they were paranoid and on edge to begin with.

When I am talking to a 34yo man who has been smoking weed for 18 years and I know they haven't suffered any traumatic head injuries but the way they talk would make Cheech and Chong during their most baked in a movie sound intelligent and normal than what else could explain it?

I can guarantee that they have done an awful lot more than pot if that is the case. Doing 'hard' psychedelics is the primary reason that a person would end up that dull, not pot. I have met an awful lot of individuals that took way too many drugs in their younger years, and they did end up pretty dull, but they certainly did not end up that way solely because of marijuana.

People don't just normally become slowed without something happening to their brain.

Mushrooms, LSD, Meth, Cocaine, etc... etc... these are the drugs that permanently damage your brain. I heard there was a recent study about long term effects of marijuana, but I can't find it. In terms of the huge amount of research out now, it would hardly sway my opinion very far.

Do know that some people age quicker? Some people get early diseases that are associated with old age. Not everyone has a sparkling, shiny, crisp mind, past their 50's. In fact, most people start to have real memory problems as early as 30 years old.

So no I don't believe smoking a dub a week is going to feth up your brain but I know from experience that smoking 3 or 4 per day WILL.

That is reasonable Fateweaver. There is no reason a person should be drinking a twelve pack a day, or smoke 5 joints a day, besides enjoyment. I know very few people that can even afford to do that, it is not exactly a cheap past-time.

Albatross wrote:Having read quite a few threads on gun control here, I wondered what Dakkites' positions on legalisation of Cannabis where? Do you favour a complete ban, Amsterdam-style 'Tolerance-zones', or complete legalisation? Not looking for anyone to 'out' themselves as weed smokers necessarily - just thought it might be interesting!

For what it's worth, I believe legalistion could generate a large amount of revenue for the UK, and that use is so widespread that it wouldn't have that much of a negative impact on society. Alchohol is FAR more dangerous and causes many more social problems, in addition to costing the NHS an absolute fortune.


Thoughts?

I'm a non smoker, having said that I totally agree with your post
Also been able to buy it over the counter would help keeping people from meeting dealers of other drugs

Fateweaver wrote:I imagine it comes down to how often and how much.

Smoking a dub once a week I'm sure is a lot less harmful than smoking 3 or 4 dubs a day (and I know people like that).

Alcohol is the same way. 1 glass of wine a day is NOT going to mess up your body. Your liver can handle 1 glass of wine without getting fethed up. When you drink an entire bottle or 3 of wine per day it will cause long term affects.

Vitamins are dangerous in mass quantities. Too much of certain vitamins is dangerous.

So no I don't believe smoking a dub a week is going to feth up your brain but I know from experience that smoking 3 or 4 per day WILL.

So, in that regard alcohol is no more dangerous than weed (that and there has been more drug deals involving weed involving violence than violence over a keg of beer or case of beer).

Well,of course moderation is the key here,if someone does nothing except smoke weed all day,their obviously not going to accomplish much,and the same can be said for someone who starts the day of with a bottle of vodka.
And concerning violence,true their may be some involved in the whole dealer/buyer world of weed,but I can say with out hesitation I have seen WAAAYYY more violence perpetrated by people under the influnce of alcohol,friday and saturday nights in New Orleans French Qaurter you will see more fights in one night then Mike Tyson has seen in his whole carear.

Umm, what forum is this?

Where did I put my pants?

LOL.

I just see no reason to legalize it. Alcohol in moderation is no more dangerous than weed and probably even LESS dangerous.

Most people can drink 1 beer and not feel a thing. Smoking a bowl or a dub I'm sure has it's effects, even on those who smoke it daily.

I have been in the same house where 6 people were lighting up. After 10 minutes I was starting to feel light headed and nauseous so I eventually left the house, went for a walk to clear my head (I was in the basement painting and could smell it drifting down into the paint room but like I said after 10 minutes it was making me feel what I can only imagine being stoned feels like (minus the nauseous).

So it wasn't a smoke box and I did leave the situation. So no, you don't need to be in a smoke box to get high off it. I wouldn't call 6 people smoking in an 1100 square foot area a "smoke box".