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It depends, whom against whom.

The Seer Council is the best anvil unit in the game.

I personally run the Skulltaker+ Bloodcrusher combo and can confirm there is -very little- that they cannot beat in combat, although characters like Logan Grimnar, who are Eternal Warriors -and- have a better invul save than him (4+) are bloody annoying. I played a game on Thursday night against a very good SW player, charged his Logan unit with Fiends -and- Skulltaker+ Bloodcrushers, but just couldn't beat down Logan because he made, I kid you not, about 20 4+ invul saves >.< .

Reecius wrote:It doesn't make much difference, Skulltaker insta kills anything he hits on a 4+, which means half his attacks will kill any of the guys in that squad.

And this isn't a question of equal points, but of best unit, so there would be a max squad of Crushers.

Also, you can't assume nids charge, both units are equal in speed, so it is a wash as to who would charge.

Either way, on a pure stats basis, crushers and skulltaker win.

And Nightbringer would be the man if he was eternal warrior, but he is not, so he gets pwnd by anything that causes instant death....well, they have to wound him first, but still, that fact alone knocks him out of the top spot.

He will booty rape Bloodthrister and the Avatar though, which is awesome.

Hello ? remember what I said in the first place?

ED209 wrote:
I think the a unit of swarmlord and 3tyrant guards can take out the same cost bloodcrusher+skulltaker unit in average dice roll,if the bugs got their psychic off and the charge.

You after me said they cant win in this condition,so I bring the whole mathhammer, now you simply jump back say they need to be full unit and will not be charged. lol worst reply ever

Best close combat unit is 10 guardsmen being charged.

Hahah, you made all these crazy assumptions that are unfounded which also means your math was flawed as it was based on ridiculous conditions.

Skulltaker will KILL the tyrant guard himself first round of combat!

If you want to believe that in a very limited context that Swarlord and tyrant guard will beat Skulltaker and 7 crushers, then fine, that is your prerogative.

Skull taker and Crushers will defeat Swarlord and crew in most engagements, which makes them superior.

So take your reply and go pickle it in some sauerkraut, Fritz! haha (that was a good natured jibe too, hopefully no on gets their panties in a bunch).

Reecius wrote:Hahah, you made all these crazy assumptions that are unfounded which also means your math was flawed as it was based on ridiculous conditions.

Skulltaker will KILL the tyrant guard himself first round of combat!

If you want to believe that in a very limited context that Swarlord and tyrant guard will beat Skulltaker and 7 crushers, then fine, that is your prerogative.

Skull taker and Crushers will defeat Swarlord and crew in most engagements, which makes them superior.

So take your reply and go pickle it in some sauerkraut, Fritz! haha (that was a good natured jibe too, hopefully no on gets their panties in a bunch).

Dont be pissed off, this is what you said in the first place:

Reecius wrote:The bloodcrushers still win, even hitting on 5's. They have too many attacks and ingore instant death and can distribute wounds.

Sauerkraut is actually very funny as Im not from germany. however I think I could pm mod to see whether this is fine in this forum to call other people funny name.

Anyway I think you should be happy that other people take your debate seriously and did that much work to reply it ,from now on I will just ignore you.

With no silly conditions, skulltaker and a full squad of bloodcrushers > pretty much anything as a melee unit.

2 Keeper of Secrets with Unholy Might each?

Ragnar Blackmane
Logan Grimnar
Ulrik the Slayer
Wolf Lord with Saga of the Bear, TDA, Thunderhammer, Stormshield, Wolf Tooth Necklace
Arjack Rockfist
8 other Wolf Guard in Power Armor with Frostblades and stormshields

All in a Land Raider Crusader
(this unit with transport is 1887 points)

mass of high I S6 attacks, few S9, and a few S10.
every attack ignores armor saves
everything has a good invul save
against T5 enemies they reroll hits AND wounds

Against bloodcrushers everything re rolls hits AND wounds, with 3 guys who have eternal warrior to nullify the skulltakers auto-ID ability, I dont remember Skulltakers statline, so I cant mathhammer it out, but I seriousluy doubt he could wipe out this unit.

Against the Swarmlord all the HQ models still hit on 3's (even with WS1, as they all have Wolf Tooth Necklaces) and reroll hits and wounds, with Logan, Ragnar and Ulrik all swinging at I6 with S5 and 6 power weapons, thats on average
16 attacks at S6 I6, 13.555 hits, 10.16666 wounds, 5 failed saves, dead swarmlord
7 attacks at S5 I6, 6.222 hits, ~3.4 wounds, 1.69 failed saves, swarmlord is even more dead.
Swarm lord at best attacks Ragnar, Ulrick, and a couple of wolf guard, killing them all (being generous) the remaining 6 wolf guard attack before the 3 tyrant guard, 30 attacks, 22.5 hits, 16.875 wounds, all the tyrant guard dead before they can swing.

The Korne vrs. Swarmlord battle seems to be getting a little heated . I think you guys should schedule a 'game' and actually play it out. set up the unit 12" apart, roll against each others Int score, then charge and duke it out. Play a two outta three. See who really comes out on top.
I know a korne player and a Nid player.. maybe I should have them fight it out and post the results?

Sauerkraut is actually very funny as Im not from germany. however I think I could pm mod to see whether this is fine in this forum to call other people funny name.

Anyway I think you should be happy that other people take your debate seriously and did that much work to reply it ,from now on I will just ignore you.

Good lord, everyone around here has gotten so sensitive! I explicitly said it was a joke!

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. So let me apologize if I did.

Secondly, if English is not your first language I can see how it would be easy to misconstrue what I said, even if it is your native language which it does not appear to be, it is easy to miss sarcasm on a forum.

But in all fairness, you did tell me my reply was the stupidest post ever, I figured if you were going to dish the insults you could take a little bit yourself, but I guess I was wrong.

So again sorry if I hurt your feelings there, I was just making a joke.


@Demogerg
That matchup would depend on who got the charge, and with that load out it would only be fair to say 8 crushers with 3 tricked out heralds and skulltaker. On the charge the crushers swing first and wound on 2's so most of the space pups will get killed round one, if they don't charge it probably goes the other way. I am too lazy to math it out right now as there is a lot of variables in that combat and it would take longer than I am willing to put into it right now! haha.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think you guys should schedule a 'game' and actually play it out.

That would be hard to do considering we are on different continents!

Math hammer is sufficient as it expresses what is most likely to occur in the average scenario. In the average engagement between those two forces, the Khorne boys win, if given the very restricting conditions that ED209 posted, then it is possible they lose, but those conditions are not likely to occur in the average engagement, so they are not valid for theorhammer.

Theoryhammer assumes the most likely scenario. Anything beyond that is speculation that can;t reliably be quantified.

Reecius wrote:

I think you guys should schedule a 'game' and actually play it out.

That would be hard to do considering we are on different continents!

Theoryhammer assumes the most likely scenario. Anything beyond that is speculation that can;t reliably be quantified.

Noted on continents lol, but it seems like a good idea.

I really HATE mathhammer, theroyhammer, or whatever you want to call it (and no this isn't a dig against you)..... because it's not actually playing the game its just... a theory. numbers can tell you a whole lot, and I love the idea of math hammer. I just can't trust it. I mean its like Vikings should have one against the Saints, but what math and theory can't tell you is that the Vikings would turn it over 5 times.
Nothing can match up to actually playing the game. but thats just IMHO.

Demogerg wrote:Ragnar Blackmane
Logan Grimnar
Ulrik the Slayer
Wolf Lord with Saga of the Bear, TDA, Thunderhammer, Stormshield, Wolf Tooth Necklace
Arjack Rockfist
8 other Wolf Guard in Power Armor with Frostblades and stormshields

All in a Land Raider Crusader
(this unit with transport is 1887 points)

Is this even possible in standard Force Org?

Either way, looking at the thread in the manner of

"Best close combat unit in 40k?"

In standard 40k Battles,

probably a Dark Eldar Archon Lord with Punisher, Powerweapon, Animus, Drugs, Shadowfeild and a retinue consisting of 8 Incubi, 1 Incubi Master with Drugs +Reaver jetbike, 1 Drazor master of blades. All with haywire. Costs you around 600 points (probably most expensive unit as well) but unit vs unit, I'd say everyone out there has a hard time brawling these guys.

In Apoc... (not counting Titans or Gargantuans)

Well this is obvious...

Angron with full retinue.

1 Angron

12 Bloodthirsters

3500 points (Before upgrading the Thirsters)

I would NEVER... EVER... want to melee that "Unit" .... and its the scariest "Multi" assault of all time... with 90 inches maximum board coverage and still maintaining Coherency... Hell, I'm willing to wager 'my left die' that even 8k worth of other melee units (not including Daemonhunters... maybe?) would get curb stomped by these badboys....

@hcordes

I agree completely with you (and don;t get me started on the playoffs, my damn Chargers choked, and then my second favorite team choked!!).

But on the internet, all you can do is math hammer. You can't actually recreate tabletop conditions.

What math or theory hammer is great for though, is giving you an idea of what is MOST LIKELY to occur in a given situation.

That is why it is useful, if you can do it in your head, which most good players can, you can get a good idea of what will occur during a game.

So, when doing math hammer, you have to make a few assumptions:

All events occur in a vacuum. You can't bring in interactions with other units into the argument as it makes the model too complex in most cases.

You assume player skill level is equal, since it is impossible to quantify skill lever in any meaningful way.

You assume in shooting the unit with longer range shoots first, in assault the faster unit charges first.

In cases where they are equal, you have to run it both ways.

you don't assume equal points values in most cases, but what is the most likely set up and squad size, or you determine it in the starting conditions.

You assume average dice roles as you can't plan for good or bad luck.

More than anything it is for fun and to design a good list because as you said, it does not recreate tabletop conditions and the dice have a funny way of not falling average every time.

Daemon-Archon wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Ragnar Blackmane
Logan Grimnar
Ulrik the Slayer
Wolf Lord with Saga of the Bear, TDA, Thunderhammer, Stormshield, Wolf Tooth Necklace
Arjack Rockfist
8 other Wolf Guard in Power Armor with Frostblades and stormshields

All in a Land Raider Crusader
(this unit with transport is 1887 points)

Is this even possible in standard Force Org?

Either way, looking at the thread in the manner of

"Best close combat unit in 40k?"

yep, 4 HQ choices (Space Wolves Cheese!), 1 troop choice with an upgrade character and a dedicated transport.

Also, getting the charge wouldnt be too hard when you consider this unit would be stuffed inside a land raider untill it was ready to open up a can.

mathhammer gives you statistics, what happens 'on average'

You can't play one game and declare the math is wrong, because a run of bad luck is a significant deviation from average. if you take a unit's performance over the course of a minimum 10 games stretch, mathhammer should largely hold out.

a football playoff game is a toss of the dice if the teams are not completely mis-matched, it's a one game affair. the multiple game series playoffs and championships you see in baseball, basketball, and hockey are a better indication of statistics, a team can have a bad night and come back and pull out the win in the series.

Course there are two sayings that pertain:

Numbers don't lie.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

@Reecius i think part of it is when I did most of my 40k playing, (3rd Ed) this kinda thing wasn't even thought of in my gaming group(s). Then all of a sudden this hot shot math hammer guy shows up, and run numbers on everyone, and basically only played those people he felt like he had the best chance of winning against. While I understand where was coming from, and I like the idea of "knowing" whats going to happen (even if it is an average), my initial exposser to it wasn't the best, and in theory (yes i know) thats why i harbor bad feelings about it.
I never really got into internet boards until recently either, and i have all these people telling me how to run and play my army and throwing all these numbers at me.. its somewhat overwhelming lol.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroot Loops wrote:mathhammer gives you statistics, what happens 'on average'

You can't play one game and declare the math is wrong,

Numbers don't lie.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

well, that doesn't mean i have to like it. I like Han Solo's reply "Never tell me the odds!"

I said they should do two outta three lol.

Numbers don't lie... unless you take steroids.

For sure.

Take it with a grain of salt, for me playing the list I enjoy is more fun than the list that will beat everyone (unless the cosmos aligns and they happen to be the same list, which hasn't happened yet)

hcordes wrote:@Reecius i think part of it is when I did most of my 40k playing, (3rd Ed) this kinda thing wasn't even thought of in my gaming group(s). Then all of a sudden this hot shot math hammer guy shows up, and run numbers on everyone, and basically only played those people he felt like he had the best chance of winning against. While I understand where was coming from, and I like the idea of "knowing" whats going to happen (even if it is an average), my initial exposser to it wasn't the best, and in theory (yes i know) thats why i harbor bad feelings about it.
I never really got into internet boards until recently either, and i have all these people telling me how to run and play my army and throwing all these numbers at me.. its somewhat overwhelming lol.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroot Loops wrote:mathhammer gives you statistics, what happens 'on average'

You can't play one game and declare the math is wrong,

Numbers don't lie.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

well, that doesn't mean i have to like it. I like Han Solo's reply "Never tell me the odds!"

I said they should do two outta three lol.

Numbers don't lie... unless you take steroids.

Its good to be aware of how mathmatical averages work out vs common units, but using it to determine who you are willing to play is just being TFG.

For example, I know that how i load my Grey Hunter units, on average, assuming I make my Counter-Charge roll, they will win combat against a unit of 30 slugga/choppa boys with a hidden powerklaw that charge in. This means that when I see a single unit of boys on an objective, I'm not afraid to drive a rhino up 12" hop out and rapid fire them down, accept the charge next turn and probably win.

Exactly, stats are not everyone's cup of tea but in a game that revolves around them it is good to at least be familiar with them.

I play the lists I like, as I think most people do, but I do run the numbers in my mind to get an idea of what to expect from it.

to defend my space marine honour i want to say chapter master and honour guard but no doubt i will be proven wrong. though they did hold up against half an imperial guard army :/

Mathhammer is good for seeing what the likely hood is and just how easily you can kill a tank, for example. Don't rely on in games, though.

Seems like it's down to 8 Bloodcrushers + 3 Heralds on Juggers + Skulltaker on jugger vs. that Space Wolf 4 HQ unit mentioned.

Given the rerolls, I think it comes out in the Space Wolves favor. Can someone mathhammer it for me? Give neither the charge and both the charge, see how it goes?

No one else is going to get anywhere near those two (sorry Nids), just too many points in those units with the 4 HQ choices.

Reecius wrote:

Sauerkraut is actually very funny as Im not from germany. however I think I could pm mod to see whether this is fine in this forum to call other people funny name.

Anyway I think you should be happy that other people take your debate seriously and did that much work to reply it ,from now on I will just ignore you.

Good lord, everyone around here has gotten so sensitive! I explicitly said it was a joke!

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. So let me apologize if I did.

Secondly, if English is not your first language I can see how it would be easy to misconstrue what I said, even if it is your native language which it does not appear to be, it is easy to miss sarcasm on a forum.

But in all fairness, you did tell me my reply was the stupidest post ever, I figured if you were going to dish the insults you could take a little bit yourself, but I guess I was wrong.

So again sorry if I hurt your feelings there, I was just making a joke.

Apologize accept, I will stop ignore you, though I will still ask my german friends about the funny name ,and see how they act in return ,you guys may have been already trading these kind names for centuries , that's really funny to me(no joking) as a culture study subject , of cause english is not my mother tongue ,and human emotion is as complex as a 10men nob squad.

other than offtopic, the reason I said about Swarmlord in some conditions(which are really easy to happen) could take out Bloodcrushers is to make a notice that even best CC unit could fell in CC too, not in some good luck from your enemy but with average dice roll, so they will be awared of that next time. People may not believe you of cause ,since they think these and those are no match to his awsome unit , and you can not just say I have these advantage or that ability, only a mathhammer can make things clear. that's why we use math ,it's the ability to prove things which are complicated ,I believe teacher has already told everyone in school about this, but I say again in case somebody forgets about it. After you have done lots of work with boring math, to kindly aware others about the things you said, they returned you like you had proved nothing ,XX is still awsome and kick ass, you just used wrong conditions(which they agreed at first place), what can you say? next time I will save my energy from doing math and get myself a game then enjoy it only myself(if I win maybe I will come back on internet and tell everyone how awsome XX unit was in that game).

Daemon-Archon wrote:
In Apoc... (not counting Titans or Gargantuans)

Why not count them?

I'd take Tetragon of Darkness, w/ the 4 FW lords, and 20 each of the lesser daemons.

30 T8+ wounds gargantuans and 80 smaller daemons, with built-in night-fighting to see them, and re-rolling their invul saves. You've got one guy whose S10, and gets extra attacks for every '6' to hit, one blob with a poisoned weapon that deals two wounds per hit, one girl with a magic sword that ignores inv. saves, to take care of pesky nuisances like seer councils and th/ss dudes. And a tzeentch guy that I haven't even see the rules for.

One apoc choice...


Outside of Apoc sillyness though, I have to go with the crushers. Claiming you can always get the charge on them is silly, daemons have plenty of ability to screen their assault unit too.

taylorton147 wrote:to defend my space marine honour i want to say chapter master and honour guard but no doubt i will be proven wrong. though they did hold up against half an imperial guard army :/

Sorry brother, as much as I wish that were true, it isn't. Assault termies are better by a long shot on a stats basis.

human emotion is as complex as a 10men nob squad.

That was actually a really clever joke even for someone who does speak English as their native tongue.

@40Kenthusiast
I would be interested in seeing that too, I have actual work to do right now, but this evening if someone else has not gotten to it I will run the numbers. I think both squads are fairly unlikely to be seen, but the Daemon unit is probably more likely of the two.

God, either of those would be hellish to come up against.

Redbeard wrote:

Outside of Apoc sillyness though, I have to go with the crushers. Claiming you can always get the charge on them is silly, daemons have plenty of ability to screen their assault unit too.

the reason the unit i proposed isn't a full unit of wolf guard is so they can fit inside a land raider crusader, which most of the time ensures the charge. As much as the metagame is filled with anti-land raider sentiment, they are still hard to stop. Tank shock through the screen, disembark, and assault the juicy skulltaker unit.

40kenthusiast wrote:Seems like it's down to 8 Bloodcrushers + 3 Heralds on Juggers + Skulltaker on jugger vs. that Space Wolf 4 HQ unit mentioned.

You know, I think a full squad of Tyranid Warriors (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Boneswords, Lash Whips) with 2 similarly equipped Primes can offer some challenge to them. The Tyranids should be able to take them out if they get the charge, while they lose if the bloodcrushers get the charge. Against nobz and space wolves, the Tyranid are even less likely to get the charge, but should still do significant damage going first with potentially instant-killing power-weapons. (Though the powerklaws and thunder hammers they don't kill will scythe through their ranks crazy fast.)

But yeah, hard to really make this sort of comparison with potential point costs for such uber-units so wildly varying from one codex to the next. Set a points amount, and I think you'd be able to make some more serious comparisons.

He's right.
999 Bloodthirsters all equppied with Might!!!

Myth wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:Seems like it's down to 8 Bloodcrushers + 3 Heralds on Juggers + Skulltaker on jugger vs. that Space Wolf 4 HQ unit mentioned.

You know, I think a full squad of Tyranid Warriors (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Boneswords, Lash Whips) with 2 similarly equipped Primes can offer some challenge to them. The Tyranids should be able to take them out if they get the charge, while they lose if the bloodcrushers get the charge. Against nobz and space wolves, the Tyranid are even less likely to get the charge, but should still do significant damage going first with potentially instant-killing power-weapons. (Though the powerklaws and thunder hammers they don't kill will scythe through their ranks crazy fast.)

But yeah, hard to really make this sort of comparison with potential point costs for such uber-units so wildly varying from one codex to the next. Set a points amount, and I think you'd be able to make some more serious comparisons.

500pts per unit, ready. GO!