Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

n0t_u wrote:

thekerrick wrote:Ill put my voucher in for a fully upgraded squad of genestealers with broodlord. Id like to see any squad of termis take on that. I6, rending plus psychic powers on broodlord.

They charged my normal tactical squad in a ruin. Psychic power worked and stopped the power fist from attacking. Killed nothing, one stealler died, failed leadership and ran off the board



Maybe a full Ork boy squad with a Power Klaw from sheer numbers alone.

Luck doesn't really count....They could have won! They need 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and then rending! In a my games, eight genestealers can destroy entire tactical squads!

My favourite?

Honour guard.

2 'base' attack, +1 for the charge, +1 on the banner, W/ relic blades, S6.

champ gets 3 attacks base, +1 for the the charge +1 for the banner

On the charge, a squad of 10 honour guard got 41 attacks, all at S6. (assault gets 1+ to assault results.)
ALONG WITH THAT. the save is 2+.
otherwise! a squad of 10, at S4 get all power weapons and bolt pistols. they get 5 attacks each and 6 for the champion. they will get 51 attacks

Imagine the possibilities of these, against any troop squads, or even elite/fast attack.

otherwise:

10 SS/TH terminators, much cheaper, hits 30 attacks at S8 (albeit, initiative 1.)

what about 5 thunderwolfs all with shields and stuff and then 4 thunderwolf wolflords?

if there is no point limit you can do sick things!

greetings Badger

Luke_Prowler wrote:Wat you need are som' Ork Boyz. They come in 'nd smash in anyune dat think dey can run da place. Ork are made for Fightin' and winnin'!

swamp 'em!

you know what,I think you will all DIE uder some fire power,I mean whats the point of combat units when you cant get into one?

Reecius wrote:@Sarnath666
You are talking about one match up but fair enough, but lets run the numbers, maybe you are right, but I doubt it. If you are adding a libby, I get a character too, which is skulltaker on a jugger.

Ok, assuming libby gets null zone off every time.

Ok, 8 crushers and Skulltaker charge with 42 attacks, hit 28 times, wound 24 times, kill 8 TH termies, all LC termies.

TH and Libby swing back, 4 TH attacks, hit with 2, wound with 2, kill one Bloodcrusher, none with wound allocation. Libby hits once, probably doesn't wound. Next round they are dead.

So that is a wipe out.

If the termies charge.

Crushers have 29 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 14, kill 5 TH, 10 LC.

Termies swing back, with 15 TH attacks, hit with 8, wound with 7, cause 6 wounds, which will kill no crushers with proper wound allocation, 3 with no different kit on the crushers or putting any wounds on skulltaker (which is foolish, obviously).

LC's swing with 40, hit with 20, wound with 13, cause 11 wounds, kill 3 to 4 with wound allocation.

Libby swing 3 times, hits 2 lets say, wounds once.

Crushers win that combat, although the LC termies do better.

So no, they don't crush the gak out of them, they get their asses handed to them.

And one ironclad can tarpit that unit for quite some time.

It's the one huge problem that crushers have...

n0t_u wrote:

thekerrick wrote:Ill put my voucher in for a fully upgraded squad of genestealers with broodlord. Id like to see any squad of termis take on that. I6, rending plus psychic powers on broodlord.

They charged my normal tactical squad in a ruin. Psychic power worked and stopped the power fist from attacking. Killed nothing, one stealler died, failed leadership and ran off the board



Maybe a full Ork boy squad with a Power Klaw from sheer numbers alone.

You have to make it on even ground if your comparing assault sqauds. 19 Stealers and one Broodlord put out over 60 attacks on the charge. 3 each for the regular guys. Always wound on at least a 4+. You will roll a lot of 6s for rending. Ive always been able to wipe termies out with my stealers. Pre 5th ed codex give em flesh hooks and watch your termie squad crumble.

i have one thats actually not in any 40k rule books, but i thought it would be fun to post and ponder on. I do not think it would beat the lashwhips and what not, but it could be cool.

I am currently reading the "Dawn of War" novels, and something popped up that sent a chill down my spine.

I do not have my book to quote exactly, but Captain Gabriel is thinking about his chapters (blood ravens) large population of Librarians, and he mentions that the first company bolsters a full ten man squad of Librarians. now granted with the the codex this starts off as a 1000pt unit lol. But lets be hypothetical, and say because of their high population that Librarians are cheaper somehow.... in order to even think about taking this unit!
and lets say for argument sake, they only get ONE power each (to along with the lowered points cost), although the "master librarian"(squad leader) say he cost close to normal and gets two powers. And they get access to the same equipment as a standard Librarians. so play around with the equip to take advantage of wound allocation, i think this could be not only a fun squad to play with, but a hard one to defeat, similar to seer council??

thoughts??

I think the pheonix court of khaine is pretty hard. But thats an apocalspse formation and probably 4 or 5 times the cost of anything else here. I'll shut up now....

10 X Assault Terminators with Pedro Kantor and Vulkan.

4 master crafted attacks apiece for the Thunderhammers.

Throw in an I5 Relic Blade and another power fist for good measure.

And if we pit this against Mad Dok Grotsnik + 30 Orks (slugga boyz) that has a buried nob with a powerklaw, and they use Mad Dok's granted invulnerable save (and his feel no pain)

30 Boyz with 120 attacks on the charge, 90 attacks not on the charge. 5+ invulnerable save, 4+ feel no pain. Mad Dok and the nob contributing 9 powerklaw attacks to the fray...

Yeah, I don't see any close combat unit taking this down, even with the orks going second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:10 X Assault Terminators with Pedro Kantor and Vulkan.

4 master crafted attacks apiece for the Thunderhammers.

Throw in an I5 Relic Blade and another power fist for good measure.

Great example: Your Relic blade kills a couple of orks. Whoopee. Thunderhammers are I1, and you're going to suffer through 100-120 attacks back before you get to swing those thunderhammers, and then if anything even lives you're going to get 9 powerklaw attacks in the face at the same time you swing your thunderhammers.

Pretty sure you'd get beaten down.

Are Apocalypse formations allowed?

Da Green Tide seems like the grandaddy of all Close Combat Units.

You could even put Grotsnik in there, IIRC.

__________________________________________________________

Did I offend someone by bringing up Terminators? Seemed like a bit of an angry response there.

I still like the odds, particularly if Vulkan got into base with Grotsnik at the outset. With 5 attacks on the charge courtesy of Kantor I don't think the Dok would get his klaw attacks.

Monster Rain wrote:Are Apocalypse formations allowed?

Da Green Tide seems like the grandaddy of all Close Combat Units.

You could even put Grotsnik in there, IIRC.

__________________________________________________________

Did I offend someone by bringing up Terminators? Seemed like a bit of an angry response there.

I still like the odds, particularly if Vulkan got into base with Grotsnik at the outset. With 5 attacks on the charge courtesy of Kantor I don't think the Dok would get his klaw attacks.

Doc hangs in the middle of the pack to make sure this doesn't happen. =p

But he has to be in base contact to get his attacks... Wait, he is an IC, right?

hmmm so what about carnifex squadrons? expensive as hell but they dont have any real weakness to exploit, unklike bloodcrushers who see a dreadnought and wish they hadn't forgotten evicerators

Sarnath666 wrote:hmmm so what about carnifex squadrons? expensive as hell but they dont have any real weakness to exploit, unklike bloodcrushers who see a dreadnought and wish they hadn't forgotten evicerators

Abit too expensive, if you compare to say a 200p assault terminator squad.

If the assault terminator squad gets the charge they'd probably be able to take down 4-500p worth of carnifex'.
And normally they get the charge due to land raiders.

The point value just aint the best with the new carnifexs.

I'm just gonna go out there and say that the best close combat unit is Harlequins
Meh, atleast i like them

Monster Rain wrote:But he has to be in base contact to get his attacks... Wait, he is an IC, right?

Mad Dok would be happy to sit out of combat - he's really providing FNP and 5+ invul saves to all the boyz. Their mass of attacks before your thunderhammers get to swing should be more than enough to end them. I can math-hammer it out if you like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bigyounk wrote:Eldar Harlequins

8 Harlequins with shurikan pistol and harlequin kiss
shadowseer with shurikan pistol and harlequin kiss
troupe leader with shurikan pistol andpower weapon

36 Rending Attacks on the charge
5 power weapon attacks on the charge
Int 6 / Str 4 on the charge
and hit & run so they are always on the charge

Oh did I mention they have fleet and you can't shoot at them from more than 24". And even at 24" or less you have to roll to see them.

I have hit every single one of the listed elite hand to hand units listed and wiped them out.

Whether the harlequins get the charge or the ork boyz get the charge is up for grabs. Lets presume neither of us gets the advantage of the charge for the sake of argument (or that both get it).

Either the Harlequins need 4+ to wound against the orks 3+, or 5+ against the orks 4+. The orks will get a 5+ invul save, then a 4+ feel no pain against your non power attacks, then return attacks in such mass that the harlequins will crumble.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Mad Dok would be happy to sit out of combat - he's really providing FNP and 5+ invul saves to all the boyz. Their mass of attacks before your thunderhammers get to swing should be more than enough to end them. I can math-hammer it out if you like.

Already did; 100attacks (with their furious charge) ~4-5 dead 'nators.

However, I think his point is that IC's have to move towards the enemy unit before the rest of the unit does (if assaulted). So in some cases you can't avoid getting him into combat. Most of the time however, you might be able to.

Dashofpepper wrote:And if we pit this against Mad Dok Grotsnik + 30 Orks (slugga boyz) that has a buried nob with a powerklaw, and they use Mad Dok's granted invulnerable save (and his feel no pain)

30 Boyz with 120 attacks on the charge, 90 attacks not on the charge. 5+ invulnerable save, 4+ feel no pain. Mad Dok and the nob contributing 9 powerklaw attacks to the fray...

Yeah, I don't see any close combat unit taking this down, even with the orks going second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:10 X Assault Terminators with Pedro Kantor and Vulkan.

4 master crafted attacks apiece for the Thunderhammers.

Throw in an I5 Relic Blade and another power fist for good measure.

Great example: Your Relic blade kills a couple of orks. Whoopee. Thunderhammers are I1, and you're going to suffer through 100-120 attacks back before you get to swing those thunderhammers, and then if anything even lives you're going to get 9 powerklaw attacks in the face at the same time you swing your thunderhammers.

Pretty sure you'd get beaten down.

My proposed unit could drop them...

10 wolf guard in power armor, all with frostblades, ragnar blackmane, logan grimnar and ulrik the slayer

(rounding everything down, assuming only a "1" on the D3 extra attacks)
Ragnar swings with 7 attacks, hitting on 3's with rerolls averages to 6 hits, S6 power weapon so 5 wounds, so 3 dead orks
Logan swings with 6 attacks, hitting on 3's with rerolls, averaging to 5 hits, S6 power weapon so 4 wounds, so 2 dead orks
Ulrik swings with 5 attacks, hitting on 3's with rerolls, averaging to 4 hits, S5 power weapon, so 2 wounds, so 1 dead ork
each wolf guard has 2 base +1 extra ccw +1 logans' howl +D3 ragnars charge bonus attacks on the charge, all at I5 S6 power weapons, assuming I roll a "1" thats 50 power weapon attacks with prefered enemy, 75% hits, 37.5 round down to 37 hits, S6 vs T4, 30.83 wounds, rounded down to 30, 20 dead orks from that.

So, rounding down, with everything stacked against this unit in terms of dice rolling, it would still kill 26 out of 30 of the orks before any ork gets to swing. 5 boys attacking 20 attacks, 10 hits, (lets give you the charge bonus as well, to even the playing field, even though i would have been charging out of a land raider) 5 wounds, maybe 2 dead wolf guard, 9 powerklaw attacks, even if all 9 hit, wound, and kill models the ork unit still loses combat by more than 10, the remaining space wolf model runs down the unit, (or if you are fearless, the fearless wounds stacking against you would wipe the last models out of the unit)

If you take the actual average rolls...
Ragnar kills 4
Logan kills 3
Ulrik kills 2
Wolf Guard kills 25
all before the orks get to swing

PK Warboss with cybork bodies and squigs
Mad Dok Grotsnik
fully WAC-abused Nob squad, all with cybork bodies, with a Waagh! Banner. 3 PKs, 7 Big Choppas

That's 28 WS5 S7 I4 attacks on the charge, followed up by 18 WS5 S9 PK attacks and 10 WS6 S10 PK attacks. The whole squad has a 5+ Invul and FNP, and with the Waagh! they will usually get the charge. They'll certainly be able to stay out of range of the Swarmlord's WS1 nerf until they charge, and at that point he won't be able to hit them with it.

EDIT: I'm not familiar with the Space WOlves codex, but doesn't the proposed unit contain 3 HQ choices?

BeRzErKeR wrote:PK Warboss with cybork bodies and squigs
Mad Dok Grotsnik
fully WAC-abused Nob squad, all with cybork bodies, with a Waagh! Banner. 3 PKs, 7 Big Choppas

That's 28 WS5 S7 I4 attacks on the charge, followed up by 18 WS5 S9 PK attacks and 10 WS6 S10 PK attacks. The whole squad has a 5+ Invul and FNP, and with the Waagh! they will usually get the charge. They'll certainly be able to stay out of range of the Swarmlord's WS1 nerf until they charge, and at that point he won't be able to hit them with it.

EDIT: I'm not familiar with the Space WOlves codex, but doesn't the proposed unit contain 3 HQ choices?

Puppies hq selections take up 1/2 slot.

If Demogerg's right with that unit, I think it pretty much nukes anything in the ork arsenal. :(

I think that everything here is working, its rock, paper, scissor. Everyone has a weakness to someone else.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Wat you need are som' Ork Boyz. They come in 'nd smash in anyune dat think dey can run da place. Ork are made for Fightin' and winnin'!

Indeed. As we all know, in the ork dialect, the word for "war" is actually the exact same word as "fun". Can anything really out-krump an ork, point for point? I think not.

Demogerg wrote:


My proposed unit could drop them...

10 wolf guard in power armor, all with frostblades, ragnar blackmane, logan grimnar and ulrik the slayer

(rounding everything down, assuming only a "1" on the D3 extra attacks)
Ragnar swings with 7 attacks, hitting on 3's with rerolls averages to 6 hits, S6 power weapon so 5 wounds, so 3 dead orks
Logan swings with 6 attacks, hitting on 3's with rerolls, averaging to 5 hits, S6 power weapon so 4 wounds, so 2 dead orks
Ulrik swings with 5 attacks, hitting on 3's with rerolls, averaging to 4 hits, S5 power weapon, so 2 wounds, so 1 dead ork
each wolf guard has 2 base +1 extra ccw +1 logans' howl +D3 ragnars charge bonus attacks on the charge, all at I5 S6 power weapons, assuming I roll a "1" thats 50 power weapon attacks with prefered enemy, 75% hits, 37.5 round down to 37 hits, S6 vs T4, 30.83 wounds, rounded down to 30, 20 dead orks from that.

So, rounding down, with everything stacked against this unit in terms of dice rolling, it would still kill 26 out of 30 of the orks before any ork gets to swing. 5 boys attacking 20 attacks, 10 hits, (lets give you the charge bonus as well, to even the playing field, even though i would have been charging out of a land raider) 5 wounds, maybe 2 dead wolf guard, 9 powerklaw attacks, even if all 9 hit, wound, and kill models the ork unit still loses combat by more than 10, the remaining space wolf model runs down the unit, (or if you are fearless, the fearless wounds stacking against you would wipe the last models out of the unit)

If you take the actual average rolls...
Ragnar kills 4
Logan kills 3
Ulrik kills 2
Wolf Guard kills 25
all before the orks get to swing

How much does all that cost? You've tossed three ICs and a full unit into combat against an ork boy unit? The question wasn't "What combination of FoC slots + HQs are the most beastly in close combat, it was which unit is?

If we're going that route, Then its 10 nob bikers, with individual wargear for wound allocation, a painboy in the mix, Ghazghkull Thraka attached to the unit, cybork bodies on the whole thing, and tossing in Old Zogwort too so that can we turn Ragnar into a farking squig.

Here is a quick breakdown based upon cost and my experience:

Top Units
Blood Crushers - very undercosted plus they have two wounds apiece and can be made complex, WS5, S5, T5, 3A, 3+/5+ Sv, Furious Charge, vulnerable to walkers

Nob bikers - very expensive pointwise, two wounds apiece and can be made complex, WS5 (Waaagh banner), S8 (power klaw), T5/4 (bike), 3A, 4+/5+ Sv, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain (Painboy), also very fast and good shooty (dakka guns)

Assault Terminators with thunder hammers & storm shields - undercosted but need landraider to be effective, S8, 2+/3+ Sv

Thunderwolves with stormshields - expensive, two wounds apiece and can be made complex, very fast, S5 (rending), T5, 4A, 3+/3+ Sv, small unit

All of these units are tough and can taking a pounding then dish it out in melée. Other units such as Harlequins and genestealers are vulnerable to enemy shooting. I know Harlies are hard to target but a squad of Space Marines can pull up in a rhino and rapid fire them to death. The Crushers are fearless so they never have to worry about breaking or being overrun if they lose combat. Crushers can also soak a lot of wounds being T5, 2W apiece, Eternal Warrior and complex. In fact Crushers are the only unit listed above that have EW. Being able to deepstrike them helps to mitigate that they move as infantry.
The assault terminators and Thunderwolves have the best save but assault terminators need a landraider which ups their cost.

The nob bikers arguably have very good saves as well with the 3+ cover for turbo boosting and FNP. Nob bikers are very expensive though.

I think for the points the Blood Crushers and Thunderwolves are the best two units. They can both kill five man squads of assault terminators with decent dice rolls.

Taking it to the next step add in some characters to help boost these squads. The Skulltaker can instant death any model that doesn't have EW. The mounted Herald with Fury (rending) and Unholy Might (+1S) is also a great deal for the points. Four complex Crushers with the Skulltaker and a Herald is well worth the points.

The mounted Warboss with a squad of Nob bikers buffs their leadership, is T6/5 and has a S10 power klaw. As said this unit is very expensive but is fast, has good saves and can crush anything in close combat. Leadership is their biggest weakness.

A mounted Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a thunderhammer and Saga of the Bear is also a beast and really adds a lot to a squad of Thunderwolves. This is definitely one of the best squads and should be able to beat nob bikers but will not have it so easy with Crushers.

A sleeper unit is the IG blob with power weapons and a commissar. I have watched these units grind up some really nasty units.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
A sleeper unit is the IG blob with power weapons and a commissar. I have watched these units grind up some really nasty units.

+1

I've had an opponent's horde of Guardsmen with Straken kill 8 Grey Knights Terminators through sheer attrition. It's why they don't leave home without Holocaust anymore.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is a quick breakdown based upon cost and my experience:

Top Units
Blood Crushers - very undercosted plus they have two wounds apiece and can be made complex, WS5, S5, T5, 3A, 3+/5+ Sv, Furious Charge, vulnerable to walkers

Nob bikers - very expensive pointwise, two wounds apiece and can be made complex, WS5 (Waaagh banner), S8 (power klaw), T5/4 (bike), 3A, 4+/5+ Sv, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain (Painboy), also very fast and good shooty (dakka guns)

Assault Terminators with thunder hammers & storm shields - undercosted but need landraider to be effective, S8, 2+/3+ Sv

Thunderwolves with stormshields - expensive, two wounds apiece and can be made complex, very fast, S5 (rending), T5, 4A, 3+/3+ Sv, small unit

All of these units are tough and can taking a pounding then dish it out in melée. Other units such as Harlequins and genestealers are vulnerable to enemy shooting. I know Harlies are hard to target but a squad of Space Marines can pull up in a rhino and rapid fire them to death. The Crushers are fearless so they never have to worry about breaking or being overrun if they lose combat. Crushers can also soak a lot of wounds being T5, 2W apiece, Eternal Warrior and complex. In fact Crushers are the only unit listed above that have EW. Being able to deepstrike them helps to mitigate that they move as infantry.
The assault terminators and Thunderwolves have the best save but assault terminators need a landraider which ups their cost.

The nob bikers arguably have very good saves as well with the 3+ cover for turbo boosting and FNP. Nob bikers are very expensive though.

I think for the points the Blood Crushers and Thunderwolves are the best two units. They can both kill five man squads of assault terminators with decent dice rolls.

Taking it to the next step add in some characters to help boost these squads. The Skulltaker can instant death any model that doesn't have EW. The mounted Herald with Fury (rending) and Unholy Might (+1S) is also a great deal for the points. Four complex Crushers with the Skulltaker and a Herald is well worth the points.

G

I think the a unit of swarmlord and 3tyrant guards can take out the same cost bloodcrusher+skulltaker unit in average dice roll,if the bugs got their psychic off and the charge.

The bloodcrushers still win, even hitting on 5's. They have too many attacks and ingore instant death and can distribute wounds.

I think the best in general assault unit is Blood crushers followed very closely by Nob Bikers.

Why?

Nob Bikers can be tank shocked off the board, pinned, etc. They have lowish leadership and that is a weakness any other army can exploit.

Curshers are immune to leadership effects, and their only weakness is that they are slow (but deepstriking mitigates this) and have trouble with high AV walkers and AV14 transports. However, only a few armies have these units, so in general, crushers will kick more ass more of the time than Nob Bikers, IMO.

ork boyz. They cost so few points. They are just so cost effective.

Tau firewarriors! jk lol they suck at cc.