Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

baodog wrote:Tau firewarriors! jk lol they suck at cc.

That's a whole other thread...

The worst CC unit!

Reecius wrote:The bloodcrushers still win, even hitting on 5's. They have too many attacks and ingore instant death and can distribute wounds.

I think the best in general assault unit is Blood crushers followed very closely by Nob Bikers.

Why?

Nob Bikers can be tank shocked off the board, pinned, etc. They have lowish leadership and that is a weakness any other army can exploit.

Curshers are immune to leadership effects, and their only weakness is that they are slow (but deepstriking mitigates this) and have trouble with high AV walkers and AV14 transports. However, only a few armies have these units, so in general, crushers will kick more ass more of the time than Nob Bikers, IMO.

Skulltaker 175 Pts

7 Bloodcrushers of Khorne 320 Pts
Fury of Khorne (x1); DG: Chaos Icon (x1); DG: Instrument of Chaos (x1)

Total Cost: 495pts


Swarmlord 280 Pts

Tyrantguard + Bonesword X3 225Pts

Toatl Cost: 505Pts

First Swarmlord is not an IC ,thus can not be singled out by Skulltaker; second as a unit the Swarmlord is different from Guard ,so there is a little more for wound allocating; third if the Swarmlord's Paroxysm goes off the unit of BC and ST will down to WS1 till next bugs turn begin; fourth models contact with Tyrantguard will down to I 1, but Tyrant guard can only chose one between bonesword and lashwhip , since in this case the Bloodcrusher and the Guard are both I4 so I take the bonesword to increase the damage out put.

Other than above if bugs get the charge they have two options : charge and contact the Skulltaker BtB, then single him out before he can swing or leave him out in the first place so he can not attack in the first combat phase.

I assume that the demon player will put his Skulltaker behind Bloodcrushers so it will not be sniped at the first place, then the math go like this:


First combatphase
Swarmlord 5 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 2.22 Bloodcrusher has i Sv 5+ but they need to reroll each successful i Sv 2.22 X 2/3 + 2.22 X 1/3 X 2/3 =1.97

3 Tyrant guards 12 X 2/3 X 1/2 X 2/3 = 2.67

1.97+2.67 =4.64 unsaved wounds

Demon player gives three different bloodcrusher each 1 unsaved wound and 1.64 unsaved wound to two normal unwounded bloodcrushers

7 Blood crusher attack back 21 X 1/3 X 1/3 =2.33 Nids player gives 1 wound to SL , 1.33 to Guard , at the end the unit take damage: 1X1/2 = 0.5 damga to SL 1.33 to Guards

nobody dead in first round ,demon player lose the combat by about 2 , 2 X 1/3 = 0.66 , I assume this will put on another normal bloodcrusher ,and the Skulltaker pile in the fight.



Second combatphase , nids player direct the attacks on bloodcrushers

Swarmlord 4 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 1.78 i Sv test on bloodcrusher 1.78 X 2/3 + 1.78 X 1/3 X 2/3 = 1.58,because only one unwounded bloodcrusher left ,the one wounded blood crusher will be droped and the only unwounded bloodcrusher will take the 0.58 damage

Skulltaker 5 X 1/3 X 1/3 = 0.55 the chance of ID is 0.27 if this is an ID then the nids player will put it on the wounded guard ,if this is not then he will put it on the Swarmlord ,I assume here is a non ID , then the Swarmlord makes i Sv 0.55 X 1/2 = 0.27 plus last round Swarmlord takes 0.5+0.27 = 0.77 damage

Tyrant guards 9 X 2/3 X 1/2 X 2/3 =2 , two more bloodcrushers droped, but they will give the attack back because I4

Bloodcrushers 18 X 1/3 X 1/3 = 2 , Nids player give 1 wound to Swarmlord 1X0.5 =0.5 , Swarmlord takes 0.5+0.77= 1.27damage , 1 wound goes to an unwounded the Guard

3 Bloodcrushers droped, the others all wounded, Skulltaker unwounded, Swarmlord takes 1.27 damage , Tyrant Guard two or three wounded. Demon player lose the combat by about 1, take save 1 X 1/3 =0.33 , give it to Skulltaker.



Third combatphase, Demon unit WS back to normal ,Nids player direct all attacks to Bloodcrushers

Swarmlord 4 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 1.78 i Sv test on bloodcrusher 1.78 X 2/3 + 1.78 X 1/3 X 2/3 = 1.58 about 1-2 Bloodcrusher droped, I assume only one droped for the following attacks from bloodcrushers

Skulltaker 5 X 2/3 X 1/3 = 1.11 about 0.55 chance of ID, I assume it's an ID one Guard droped

Tyrant guards 6 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 2/3 =1 ,one Bloodcrusher droped,but it will fight back because I4

Bloodcrushers 9 X 1/2 X 1/3 =1.5 , one Guard droped, the other 0.5 goes to Swarmlord, 0.5 X 1/2 = 0.25 Swarmlord takes total 1.27+ 0.25 =1.52damage.

At the end of Third round 1-2 Blood crusher left ,all wounded,Skulltaker unwounded , Swarmlord has 5-1.52= 3.48 wound left, one wounded Tyrant guard left , nids won the battle with about 0.5 wound ,assume is an draw.

next round the Swarmlord will kill off the 1-2 remaining Blood crushers, Skulltaker will possiblly kill the last Tyrant guard, then is the battle between 3-4 wound Swarmlord and Skulltaker, its really hard to say who will win out but my bet is on the Swarmlord, as he attacks first ,as long as he surrived the 0.25 chance of ID ,he will win out the battle, I assume 75% time the Swarmlord will win.


What I think these two units are both very tough and maybe the most tough one Nids will face ,since others wont have EW rule, but remember all of above is basic on Nids get the charge.



edited , forget the Swarm lord can cast Preferred Enemy on the unit in each nids player's turn and they are not psychic powers so no test and can be casted in combat, the result will be more clearly ended with Nids win.

Lash whip only affects the specific models in base contact with the tyrant, yeah? If thats the case, why not just send one chump into base contact with him, and then have the rest of the unit pile up on the tyrant guard?

Falconlance wrote:Lash whip only affects the specific models in base contact with the tyrant, yeah? If thats the case, why not just send one chump into base contact with him, and then have the rest of the unit pile up on the tyrant guard?

Swarm lord doesnt have Lash whip , Hive tyrant has it as defaut , Tyrant guard can buy it with 5pts each.

When assault there is no holding back ,you must fill as many models in contact as possible.

Pika_power wrote:Ghazghkull with a retinue of as many meganobs as possible will give many things a run for their money.

It's tempting to think this, but it's not as true as you think. Against regular infantry and vehicles, yes they're ripping them a new one, but anything with rending, power fists, DCCW or, god forbid, MCs will tear through that +2 armor save and making them as vulnerable as your average boy. Unless you tact on Grotsnik and get Cybork Bodies too, but not only would that be skyrocketing the already army crippling price, because of the size of the group no vehicle will hold them, so you would have the slowest, most expensive unit that could get mopped across the floor by a single Hive Tyrant

Edit: or whatever unit reduced your WS to 1. Heck if I know.

All the top CC units have some weakness or another.

Crushers suffer vs dreads, av 14 vehicles, and speed

Nob Bikers suffer from combat resolution, leadership, instant death

TH/SS Terminators suffer from low I and torrent of wounds.

Space Wolf dream team suffers from not much but is almost worth 2 or 3 times what other deathstars are

Eldar Bike councils suffer vs psychic defense, Instant death, and +2 saves

Swarm Lord + guard suffer from speed, high strength power weapons and psychic defense.

As much as I hate to admit it: Nobs Nobs Nobs
Get about seven of them, a waargh banner (+1 WS) and 3-4 power claws and you have an anti-anything unit
Monolith:dead
(most) Termies: dead
ork boys: dead

With a painboy, they get feel no pain.

Basically the only way to put them down if from afar, but they can be mounted in a truck.

8x Bloodcrushers, SKulltaker on Juggernaut, and 3x Herald of Khorne on Juggernauts with all the upgrades.

if it were allowed I'd say Eldrad, Asurmen, and Yriel.
But since it isn't we'll stick with just Eldrad and Asurmen. I heard that these 2 took out almost the entire infantry section of a blood ravens army single-handed.

With Eldrad in there they can even handle the odd vehicle/mc (other than the swarmlord, but he is just asking to get shot on the way).

MEh

Yea, the space wolf list with power armored frostblade weilding point-hogs will never see a serious table, however, I have run a list that includes ragnar and logan each in land raiders with 10 power armored wolf guard with power weapons.

the last time i played with that combo Gazzy and a full unit of 'ard boys with nob-klaw and big mek assaulted into ragnar's unit, who promply wiped out the boys and left gazzy alone to fend off ragnar and 10 wolf guard. Gazzy killed Ragnar from instant-death, but the following round the wolf guard finished of gazzy before he could swing (even with a 2+ invul save)

Admittedly there are plenty of targets than can wipe this unit off the table without a second thought... anything I6 or greater, and walkers stand a very good chance with just krak nades, logan, and ragnar to deal with them.

Anything that can kill teminators easily. e.g.: Pariahs

Depends if you mean 'best close combat unit in game situations' or 'what can I build without point limitations or game reality'. If it's in game reality, or units that you will actually see due to cost/durability/threat range...then;

Space Wolves Thunder Cav w/ Storm Shields led by Wolf Lord with Saga of Warrior and Wolf Claws. This dismantles most anything, is complex, tougher than hell, essentially immune to most ID, fast, can't get sweeping advanced and only runs 500-600ish including Lord.

Blood Crushers led by Herald. Dismantles most anything, is complex, tougher than hell, immune to ID, can't get sweeping advanced and runs 400ish kitted out with Herald.

Nobz on Bikes or Nobz in a Wagon led by Ghaz. Complex, tougher than hell, can hitch cheap durable rides to assault. Ghaz can ID Thunder Cav as listed above, make your fearless and him basically immune for a round.

Thunder Terms. Tough, cheap, can hitch a ride in the toughest assault vehicle in the game. Can handle MC, Walkers.



My rankings;

Space Wolves Thunder Cav led by Wolf Lord
Blood Crushers led by Herald
Thunder Terms
Nobz


Space Wolves Thunder Cav can die to lootas and high ROF/Str. weapons...but you'll only have a turn (If you are lucky) to do it.
Blood Crushers can potentially beat up Thunder Cav but are slow and will sit with a dread all game if you don't watch it.
Thunder Terms rock against pretty much anything except mass attacks, which kill any Terminator class.
Nobz are still very strong but Thunder Terms do well against them (and will likely get the charge). Not fearless and can be swept/chased off the table with one bad combat.

@Ed209
You forget Skulltaker causes instant death and that there would be 8 crushers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also make some pretty big assumptions about Skulltaker not swinging in the first round of combat, proper placement easily gets around that.

Swarmlord and Pals are butch though, no denying that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Nornking
Pariahs? Hahahaha, no way man, they aren't even in the top 10.

Against TH/SS termies, yes, they are good, but against pretty much anything else, they get their ass kicked.

If only they were Necrons, they would be SO much better.

so..what about one of the c'tan? really the nightbringer doesnt lose out to anyone at all...same with the deciever....EXCEPT OF COURSE! SKULLTAKER! bwahahahaahah

even then thats one character in the game, still on even terms with the deciever,who he has to fight simo, but the deciever, if he really needed to, can always just leave...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and point for point was not the question here....best assault unit, add in any independant characters as long as you don't break force org.

Better than the Swarmlord and pals might be a unit of Tyranid Warriors led by a Tyranid Prime:

Prime with Talons, Lash Whip, and Bonesword.
9 Warriors with Lash Whips and Boneswords.
Add Adrenal Glands just for the charge.

On the Charge that is (assuming all reach striking range) 41 power weapon hits that can all cause instant death, re-rolling 1s to hit, all at WS 6, I 5 and 6. And a perfectly reasonable unit to put on the field.

abaddon w/ 19 khorne zerkers... lolz

I'm going to go with 20 blood letters.

It's a troops choice.

8 Bloodcrushers only yield 32 WS5 Str 6 I5 attacks, and they are not a troops choice.

20 bloodletters yield 60 WS5 Str 5 I5 power weapon attacks on a charge.

They both cost 320 points

The bloodletters get 60 attacks to the 32 from the bloodcrushers. 60 attacks yield a lot of wounds.

Against a MEQ unit 40 should hit and 26 should wound.

Against Nob Bikers 40 should hit and 20 should wound.

Of course the question is purely what's the best CC unit without including the how much will this get shot up before getting into CC factor.

Reecius wrote:@Ed209
You forget Skulltaker causes instant death and that there would be 8 crushers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also make some pretty big assumptions about Skulltaker not swinging in the first round of combat, proper placement easily gets around that.

Swarmlord and Pals are butch though, no denying that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I didnt forget Skulltaker has ID, but I did miss the rending is on 4+ (my calculation is basic on 6+rending)so ,yes he will do better, but as I adressed before that Swarmlord is not an IC , he can use Guard to take that wound, and plus I forget Swarmlord's own preferred enemy rule, it wil be a wash.

there are 7 crushers because that's about the same price for both units.

I have already said that assume the nids get charge, so if you left Skulltaker in front ,the nids player will sniped him out at the first place.

Why nids got charge? nids could send gaunts in between or just charge the Crushers till Swarmlord come, but that's tactic question then.

Sarnath666 wrote:so..what about one of the c'tan? really the nightbringer doesnt lose out to anyone at all...same with the deciever....EXCEPT OF COURSE! SKULLTAKER! bwahahahaahah

The Nightbringer doesn't really hold up anymore IMHO. A Seer Council can absolutely wreck him if he doesn't push them away...

He Disrespects Noz, Assault Terminators and The Wolf Guard though. Bloodcrushers as well, I should think.

Actually I'm changing my mind about him. Go Nightbringer!

I thought that Tyrant Guard don't count as a true retinue, thus the Swarmlord can be singled out in cc by the Skulltaker.

G

ED209 wrote:

Reecius wrote:@Ed209
You forget Skulltaker causes instant death and that there would be 8 crushers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also make some pretty big assumptions about Skulltaker not swinging in the first round of combat, proper placement easily gets around that.

Swarmlord and Pals are butch though, no denying that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I didnt forget Skulltaker has ID, but I did miss the rending is on 4+ (my calculation is basic on 6+rending)so ,yes he will do better, but as I adressed before that Swarmlord is not an IC , he can use Guard to take that wound, and plus I forget Swarmlord's own preferred enemy rule, it wil be a wash.

there are 7 crushers because that's about the same price for both units.

I have already said that assume the nids get charge, so if you left Skulltaker in front ,the nids player will sniped him out at the first place.

Why nids got charge? nids could send gaunts in between or just charge the Crushers till Swarmlord come, but that's tactic question then.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I thought that Tyrant Guard don't count as a true retinue, thus the Swarmlord can be singled out in cc by the Skulltaker.

G

The codex says Swarmlord type : MC ,the only part he is similar to an IC is the action: join the unit ,after that they are a single unit.

The logic is when you in combat with a Swarmlord ,you attack him and then check his type , IC? no. sorry no pick out.

Nightbringer can be easiliy brought down by some Genestealers with Broodlord (all with Toxin sacs). The Broodlord has a good chance of not letting the Nightbringer attack at all (if NB even survives the Stealers attacks). Course him exploding will probably kill a large amount of the Stealers, but your trading a 200 point unit for a 360 point unit (and the Necrons only real CC counter).

I am sorry but I don't agree with the logic regarding the Swarmlord being not able to be singled out in cc.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I am sorry but I don't agree with the logic regarding the Swarmlord being not able to be singled out in cc.

G

Only an IC can be picked out from the unit, which he is not. Should this be a question in FAQ we shall see.

That is great news if he cant be picked out as it would apply to generic Tyrants as well.

G

If Hive tyrant is an IC ,then the guards are totally meaningless ,he can be picked out in shooting,because he is an IC MC, he can be picked out in combat,because he is an IC MC, what's the Guard for?

Running to go get codex

Drumroll please

Page 35 "A single tyrant of the hive (including choptimus prime) may join a unit of super beetle guard exactly as if he were an independent character."

ED I checked on YMDC and they agree with you about close combat.

G

It doesn't make much difference, Skulltaker insta kills anything he hits on a 4+, which means half his attacks will kill any of the guys in that squad.

And this isn't a question of equal points, but of best unit, so there would be a max squad of Crushers.

Also, you can't assume nids charge, both units are equal in speed, so it is a wash as to who would charge.

Either way, on a pure stats basis, crushers and skulltaker win.

And Nightbringer would be the man if he was eternal warrior, but he is not, so he gets pwnd by anything that causes instant death....well, they have to wound him first, but still, that fact alone knocks him out of the top spot.

He will booty rape Bloodthrister and the Avatar though, which is awesome.