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And Deathleaper (@ above podter)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Deathleaper (@ above poster)

FlingitNow wrote:
So your example was dumb overly simplistic hugely lucky for the tau on that crucial first turn shooting and then having the Sisters be stupid.

Actually, I gave the sisters first turn, why would they not move to try and assault the Tau? Would they be better in 4+ cover as opposed to 3+ armor? Would they be safer at letting the tau get to 30 inch range as opposed to their 24 inch? I don't get how it was "dumb"

Was it not your example that initially had the SoB's meleeing Firewarriors? What selfrespecting Tau player would EVER let a sisters squad get ANYWHERE near assault range?

Also as far as "Luck" if you actually read the post, you will see it is mostly Stat Av. The sisters took 2 wounds they should have saved where in the Tau missed 3 shots they should have hit (wich, combined with their hit-wound ratio at the moment, also should have been 3 more wounds) which in turn would have saved maybe 1 sister in total, they would still be falling back... Unless they spent a faith point for Emp's light, which would ROYALLY feth them over as they would have to either move closer to the tau (potentially letting the tau Rapidfire them) or remain in range (no 2d6 fallback) of another tau volley.

Equal points (actually the tau cost 5 LESS) FW should always beat SoB in a shoot out, unless the Tau player rolls HORRIBLE and the sisters are BLESSED with incredible luck.

Does that mean a SoB squad is the worst unit in 40k? Absolutely not, but neither are FW. Neither unit is the best or the worst unit in 40k...

*Edit*

Wait wait wait... Are people actually bringing up things like "Sisters have flamers" or "Sisters would be in Immolators" or even more redic "Lol exorcists"

Ok

cool, the entire sisters squad gets wrecked by a single Sustained Hammerhead Railgun shot... then, that same hammerhead 1 shots the exercist.

GG.

Even spore podding in a pyrovore is bad. Assuming you get a good landing spot, which isn't too hard with a pod, you are going to get off 1 heavy flamer shot. Next turn your T4 wounds are getting ripped off by small arms fire, and he falls over. So what, 140 points is it for 1 heavy flamer shot (and the more amusing pod attacks as well)? That just isn't too exciting.
The dread comparison is iffy as well, as he is only T4, not AV12. That means small arms kill him, and he can't tie up devastator type squads. In fact, CSM devastators would rip him to pieces. (I recall him only being I3 and A2, though I might be wrong.)
The pyrovore seems to be made to kill light infantry in cover, which is nice and all, but 'nids are not really hurting for anti-infantry. If he was designed to kill MEQ, more attacks, or an AP3 flamer, would have gone much farther. Hell, T5 would be an improvement, though a 3+ save would help.

As to his "I explode on ID!", you don't NEED to ID him. If he gets in melee, he will probably get smashed down by normal troops before the power fist swings. At range, you are about as likely to hit your own troops when he gets killed by a lascannon at 36" or the like.

Equal points (actually the tau cost 5 LESS) FW should always beat SoB in a shoot out, unless the Tau player rolls HORRIBLE and the sisters are BLESSED with incredible luck.

Deployment is usually 24" apart we'll say 25" and Tau go first. 11 FW 10 Sisters (so same points). Who's going to win that match? 2 rounds of shooting from the Tau before the sisters start shooting back and guess who still wins on average?

Sisters. Point for point in a straight shooting match Sisters will win they are just better surviving whilst both units are basically equal at shooting (slight edge to sisters). Read the other post above where someone details 11 FW shooting at 10 sisters...

It is not about horrible luck versus good luck it is about averages on average in a straight shooting match point for point Sisters will beat FWs. In an actual game the sisters will also have transports (as will the Tau) but the sisters transports are cheaper and better and the Sisters can take heavy flamers (all Tau under template dead on a 2).

Oh God....
My quick list:
-Ethereals
-Possesed
-Chaos Dread (Not the worst, but I really hate it)
-Chaos Spawn

I choose not to say Grots because they cost so little it's ridiculous.

Vespids have to be a pretty poor choice too, Pulse Carbine FWs, Skyrays, Ethereals but Space Pope just wins hands down.

I think Tau have the largest selection of useless things certainly as a proportion of their total choices (Marines have more HQ choices than Tau have choices).

Well, for all of those who have never seen a spawn fielded, you never saw me play =). Great fun just for the randomness, though will never be a gamewinner.

Let's see, eldar guardians, not really great.
Necron flayed ones.
Possessed. Dont get me started on this one.
Chaos dreads. Most people do not like them, but for me, they work great! Probably because they're just as nuts as I am. In a more boxy way.

That's about all I can think of right now, but then again, its late, and I had Belgian beer, so...

Daemon-Archon wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:
So your example was dumb overly simplistic hugely lucky for the tau on that crucial first turn shooting and then having the Sisters be stupid.

Actually, I gave the sisters first turn, why would they not move to try and assault the Tau? Would they be better in 4+ cover as opposed to 3+ armor? Would they be safer at letting the tau get to 30 inch range as opposed to their 24 inch? I don't get how it was "dumb"

Was it not your example that initially had the SoB's meleeing Firewarriors? What selfrespecting Tau player would EVER let a sisters squad get ANYWHERE near assault range?

Also as far as "Luck" if you actually read the post, you will see it is mostly Stat Av. The sisters took 2 wounds they should have saved where in the Tau missed 3 shots they should have hit (wich, combined with their hit-wound ratio at the moment, also should have been 3 more wounds) which in turn would have saved maybe 1 sister in total, they would still be falling back... Unless they spent a faith point for Emp's light, which would ROYALLY feth them over as they would have to either move closer to the tau (potentially letting the tau Rapidfire them) or remain in range (no 2d6 fallback) of another tau volley.

Equal points (actually the tau cost 5 LESS) FW should always beat SoB in a shoot out, unless the Tau player rolls HORRIBLE and the sisters are BLESSED with incredible luck.

Does that mean a SoB squad is the worst unit in 40k? Absolutely not, but neither are FW. Neither unit is the best or the worst unit in 40k...

*Edit*

Wait wait wait... Are people actually bringing up things like "Sisters have flamers" or "Sisters would be in Immolators" or even more redic "Lol exorcists"

Ok

cool, the entire sisters squad gets wrecked by a single Sustained Hammerhead Railgun shot... then, that same hammerhead 1 shots the exercist.

GG.

wait wait wait, are you actually proposing to keep the FW on the table? one blast template and you've lost half your squad. As I've explained elsewhere, the 30" range on the pulse rifle is smoke and mirrors against most armies. Effective operating range of the pulse rifle is 12"

If 1 on 1 gretchins

Wehrkind wrote:I good trick I saw for using Etherials was for ninja tau style armies. Most of your army stays off the board except for your commander and the etherial.
Turn one Tau, Commander hides. Etherial raises his stick thing, and runs screaming at the foe.
Turn one Enemy: Look askance at each other, then gun down etherial. Commander passes Ld10, and entire tau army becomes fearless and furious charge or whatever.
Turn 2: Buffed tau start showing up.

Sort of a wierd upgrade, but pretty funny, and might work well with aggro kroot popping in off the flanks.

Doesn't work. Price of Failure only affects units that took the morale check, in this case just the commander. Tau that aren't on the board when he dies don't take the morale check so they don't get Preferred Enemy, and for similar reasons Kroot don't either.

To answer your question first, swooping hawks.

Gretchin are meat shields for you 6+ sv ork boys or a squad of burna boys.

Gretching with 3 runtherds are AWESOME at tying up a carnifex, or any other single non-vehical model that could do devastating attacks if it wasn't tied up in cc.

So imagine 30 gretchin and 3 runtherds going up against a single wraithlord, carnifex, or avatar. Avatar will now have 1 attack, carnifex will have 1 attack, and so will a wraithlord.
Same can be applied to a 3 man TL Railgun broadside squad.

Sure they are easy to kill but that's wasted shots at a puny squad when you have bigger things to worry about.

Lol at people defending firewarriors.

Someone asked, bs 4, strength 5 guns, and ability to remove cover saves.

Hmm, veterans with a heavy bolter and a flamer...
: )

On a more serious note...

firewarriors and their fish can only kill troops. In a vacuum of troop choices, firewarriors and a fish mostly cann't hurt vehicles that are armor 12+ and can't really effectively or quickly injure monstrous creatures with 2+ saves.

That might not seem like a big deal, but when everyone is meching up, what answers do the firewarriors provide?

Also, the comparison to sisters is flawed. A real comparison would be firewarriors and a transport vs. sisters in a rhino.

You'll find..that unless you get lucky and immobilize the rhino, the sisters are deep into Tau space without taking a single casualty.

That doesn't even factor in things like droppods or outflank...

You want a bad matchup? Take equal points of firewarriors in a transport vs. plague marines in a rhino...

scuddman wrote:

That might not seem like a big deal, but when everyone is meching up, what answers do the firewarriors provide?

Glancing Rhinos on Front/Side (pen rear)

Glancing Immolators on Front/Side (Pen rear)

Penning Chimeras on Side/rear

Pening Raiders on all sides

Penning Trukks and Buggies on all sides

Glancing Pirhana's on front and Devilfish on Side (Penning both on rear Pirhana on side)

So they effectively only have issues with Land Raiders, Wave Serpents (penning Rear), battle wagons (Pen rear), Valk/Vendettas (pen rear), and Falcons (pen rear).

So of the 36 Transport AVs... they can pen 17 and Glance 21

Were as str 4 troops can glance 17 and pen... 0

Str 3 troops can glance 0

scuddman wrote:

That doesn't even factor in things like droppods or outflank...

You want a bad matchup? Take equal points of firewarriors in a transport vs. plague marines in a rhino...

As I understand it neither Sisters of Battle nor Plague marines have the option of Drop Pods or outflanking...

Also, Having veterans with a heavy bolter and a flamer does not give you the same as the firewarriors.

#1 Flamer is Str4, not str 5
#2 Heavy bolter is HEAVY (thus the name) veterans are not relentless, so you cannot move and shoot it.
#3 Heavy bolter does not remove coversaves

I still defend the point that Firewarriors are not the worst Unit in the game, actually, I'll even push it further saying they are not the worst Troops choice either. (Guardians much?)

Heh.

to glance on AV 11, 12 FW shooting beyond 12" may produce one glance on average (0.96). that glance only has a truly important impact on a 4 or 6, so largely negligable. Then the Whirlwind blast comes down and wipes out your FW squad.

If you're getting side or rear shots, you've moved, so you're within 12" to be able to shoot (with the Tau transports limited to a 12" move, rear shots will be hard to come by)

So 12 FW rapid firing on the side of a rhino: 1.92 glances. and again you need a 4 or 6 for anything significant. But lets say you immobilize the rhino.

10 sisters get out. We'll assume for the moment that they don't have anything besides bolters.

They rapid fire on the FW: 13.2 hits, 8.71 wounds, 4.36 dead FW, which is enough to force a break test on Ld 7.

If they use faith points, or have special weapons, the casualties suffered by the FW increase.

I never said FW were the worst troop choice, but they are bad.

This is magnified by the fact that 1. They are required, and 2. There is no other *Tau* troop choice (Kroot are not Tau). Eldar have other troop choices apart from guardians, and they're pretty good. Putting guardians on jetbikes also significantly upgrades their effectiveness.

I'd have to agree with everything Kroot loops has just said. Whilst FWs may not be the worst troop choice they are pretty poor and the Tau certainly have the worst selection of troop choices.

Compare them with Sisters and they are 1 point more but point win at shooting, surviving, assault, leadership, tactical flexibility and basically everything else you dan think of...

As I understand it neither Sisters of Battle nor Plague marines have the option of Drop Pods or outflanking...

Also, Having veterans with a heavy bolter and a flamer does not give you the same as the firewarriors.

You're right, even that terrible weapons setup outranges Tau at 36". For models that are 7 points. You're right they're not the same. Veterans are way better.

Also..all this talk of rear shots...on a unit that can't move and shoot unless within 12"...right...someone has to moon the firewarriors on purpose for firewarriors to get rear shots. The devilfish has a better chance, but 18" range hurts a lot.

A chimera is cheap (55 points), shoots a 36" range strength 6 shot (way better than burst cannon), and the side armor only matters if you can get to it. And if you do get to it, you are within 18-12" if you got to the side with the fish or the firewarriors.

And it's not like in this edition that getting your transport blown is a huge penalty.

Sob and plague marines don't need droppods. All they need is a basic rhino. And the sisters rhino will always have extra armor since they're using old rhinos. You just need the rhino to get you to within 24". You don't need to be in rapid fire to shoot at firewarriors. All you have to do is move up once and get behind the rhino.

The major advantage of guardians was that as things moved forward you could move backwards while shooting. However, this edition has pooped on that strategy.

Actually, I'd still argue that guardians are better than firewarriors. Take a warlock with heavy flamer and stick them in a waveserpent. What's the firewarriors and devilfish going to do to stop that?

Daemon-Archon wrote:

scuddman wrote:

That might not seem like a big deal, but when everyone is meching up, what answers do the firewarriors provide?

Glancing Rhinos on Front/Side (pen rear)

Glancing Immolators on Front/Side (Pen rear)

Penning Chimeras on Side/rear

Pening Raiders on all sides

Penning Trukks and Buggies on all sides

Glancing Pirhana's on front and Devilfish on Side (Penning both on rear Pirhana on side)

So they effectively only have issues with Land Raiders, Wave Serpents (penning Rear), battle wagons (Pen rear), Valk/Vendettas (pen rear), and Falcons (pen rear).

So of the 36 Transport AVs... they can pen 17 and Glance 21

Were as str 4 troops can glance 17 and pen... 0

Str 3 troops can glance 0

scuddman wrote:

That doesn't even factor in things like droppods or outflank...

You want a bad matchup? Take equal points of firewarriors in a transport vs. plague marines in a rhino...

As I understand it neither Sisters of Battle nor Plague marines have the option of Drop Pods or outflanking...

Also, Having veterans with a heavy bolter and a flamer does not give you the same as the firewarriors.

#1 Flamer is Str4, not str 5
#2 Heavy bolter is HEAVY (thus the name) veterans are not relentless, so you cannot move and shoot it.
#3 Heavy bolter does not remove coversaves

I still defend the point that Firewarriors are not the worst Unit in the game, actually, I'll even push it further saying they are not the worst Troops choice either. (Guardians much?)

Let me the first to say I don't think that firewarriors are the worst troops choice in the game either and they're far from the worst choice in the game (still Space Pope) gut your argument is still ridiculous.

Your long list of all the vehicles fire warriors can glance is largely irrelevant because 1) although they have the potential to glance the odds are not in their favour and 2) although you state that str3 and str 4 troops can't glance/pen vehicles this is often completely wrong.

Marines, Chaos Marines, Sisters, IG and stormstroopers can all have meltaguns which will bust AV up to 14 far more effectively than the firwarriors ever will. Most of those choices can also have a lascannon that will bust tanks at range more effectively than the firewarriors ever will and they still have comparable anti-infantry capability to the firewarriors to boot.

Orks have rokkits, nid warriors have venom cannons, necrons have gauss, guardians have bright lances, DE warriors can have multiple dark lances pretty much every army has some form of basic troop which can buy a special weapon that wil make them superior at busting tanks than the firewarriors.

This lack of special weapons is one of the main reasons fire warriors are considered quite bad. A tac squad can be equipped to deal with any threat in the game in multiple phases whilst a fire warrior squad has pathetic chances at glancing/penning low av vehicles. This leaves them with only one real role, infantry killing.

But the problem is they're not really very good at that either. Str 5 BS 3 is actually slightly worse than str 4 BS 4 on average against most targets because you roll to hit dice before you roll to wound dice. Does anyone run naked sisters units or naked tac marines hoping to use the awesome power of bolters to mow down infantry? No, because it isn't sufficient. Its nice and forms part of proper tactics but all those tac squads and sisters units which are used for troop killing will also be packing flamers, heavy flamers, plasma guns, etc that will enhance their killing power greatly over those firewarriors for usually only 5-15 pts.

You could use markerlights to increase your killing power (and should) but a pathfinder team costs a lot more than 15pts and requires an extra roll to hit. They simply aren't as cost effective as troops for other armies.

So I'll reiterate my case again.

Fire warriors are bad because;

1) they are overpriced compared to their killing power and any options to improve their killing power (markerlights, devilfish) are similarly overpriced and just compound the problem

2) they are very limited in what they can accomplish on the tabletop compared to most other armies' troops.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
Your long list of all the vehicles fire warriors can glance is largely irrelevant because 1) although they have the potential to glance the odds are not in their favour* and 2) although you state that str3 and str 4 troops can't glance/pen vehicles this is often completely wrong**.

Marines, Chaos Marines, Sisters, IG and stormstroopers can all have meltaguns which will bust AV up to 14 far more effectively than the firwarriors ever will. Most of those choices can also have a lascannon that will bust tanks at range more effectively than the firewarriors ever will and they still have comparable anti-infantry capability to the firewarriors to boot.

Orks have rokkits, nid warriors have venom cannons, necrons have gauss, guardians have bright lances, DE warriors can have multiple dark lances pretty much every army has some form of basic troop which can buy a special weapon that wil make them superior at busting tanks than the firewarriors.

This lack of special weapons is one of the main reasons fire warriors are considered quite bad. A tac squad can be equipped to deal with any threat in the game in multiple phases whilst a fire warrior squad has pathetic chances at glancing/penning low av vehicles. This leaves them with only one real role, infantry killing.

For starters, as you said yourself, they have to BUY the special weapon. Which if they did they ** would no longer be str3 or str4 shooters, but str 8/9 respectively.

Melta weaponry requires 6 inch range, @12 inches you get 1 str 8 shot (on the AV11 example, thats a 4+ to pen for your ANTI-TANK gun. And supposedly 4+ is bad as seen in BS3)

*Also, as far as the Odds in there favor. When talkting AFV str 5 vs str 4 on AV11 for example, even 1% is ∞>0. Also, the worst chance you have on a d6 is 13%. 13% for any true gambler is GREAT odds... try going to Vegas some time.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
But the problem is they're not really very good at that either. Str 5 BS 3 is actually slightly worse than str 4 BS 4 on average against most targets because you roll to hit dice before you roll to wound dice. Does anyone run naked sisters units or naked tac marines hoping to use the awesome power of bolters to mow down infantry?

As a thousand-sons player, I run pure bolters all the time, and give my sorcerers Doombolt (because honestly, then BoC is not worth it in the long run). So would that make Thousand Sons the worst troop choice in the game? (as I can't BUY upgrade weapons)

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
1) they are overpriced compared to their killing power and any options to improve their killing power (markerlights, devilfish) are similarly overpriced and just compound the problem

2) they are very limited in what they can accomplish on the tabletop compared to most other armies' troops.

1) If they were 13pts a model I would agree, but their low point cost, availibility to take skimmers as transports, increased range, and the fact that they are backed up by some of the nastiest elite/Heavy choices in the game make them totally worth their point costs.

2) AFV they are not, when you start throwing in upgrades of 10-15 points a model, yeah they start to falter a bit, but not in the sense that they get worse, moreso that the others get better (thus upgrades). Using DE and Gaurdians as examples of troops that are better because of their potential heavy weapons however is right-out. Lances are heavy weapons (no moving and shooting) and blasters require 12 inch range, which, tbh if your warriors are getting within 12 inches of an enemy vehicle... its dead anyway (You should have killed it earlier).

Check the facts, check the figures, they aren't that bad... maybe your tau players (or you) are just bad at their(your) race?

Conscripts?

Daemon-Archon wrote:
LD test (6 3) 9, Im pretty sure this breaks them. So they retreat 2d6 inches, and are below 50% (3 3) 6 inches, now at 18 inch range.

Your example is full of fail. LD 9 passes with a vet. No sister player is taking a squad without one and a book.

carmachu wrote:

Daemon-Archon wrote:
LD test (6 3) 9, Im pretty sure this breaks them. So they retreat 2d6 inches, and are below 50% (3 3) 6 inches, now at 18 inch range.

Your example is full of fail. LD 9 passes with a vet. No sister player is taking a squad without one and a book.

Your reading is full of fail? If you read the example, the cost of a vet and a book is not inculded with the squad.

Arms racing the example will do nothing more but cause massive confusion off the original point (which it seems you are trying to do), Firewarriors are NOT the worst units in the game and they will not get "Crushed" by a min-str SoB squad...

Mattlov wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Pyrovores?

What is bad about: A S5 flamer template, power weapon CC attacks, a Tyranid that doesn't need Synapse for ANYTHING, and that can be spore dropped right next to the enemy.

Nice troll.

A single WS3 power weapon attack at I1.

He DOES need Synapse or else he'll run towards the nearest tank and do jack all.

If you take more than 1 in a squad, you'd best hope you don't get shot or else you will definitely break with Ld 6.

If you get into assault, you'd best hope your opponent doesn't pass his Initiative tests. Or if you die to a powerfists, hope you roll a 4+ to use his special ability! And then don't botch the range roll. And wound with a S3 hit.

Of course, if you lose combat without dying, then the pyrovore is worthless because it just broke with its Ld 6. It DOES need Synapse, but not as much as it needs to die. A unit whose sole purpose is to die in a very specific way without getting touched on the way there, all the while hoping your opponent fails his rolls and you make yours. Meanwhile, the SW get a suicide unit who starts at 20 points, gets all the gear in the book, has amazing USRs, and grants a negative KP when he dies.

All this, for 45 points, in a slot populated by the best units in the codex (Elites). Cheers.

@Daemon-Archon:

Your examples are simplistic, not well thought out, and just plain wrong.

As a Tau player with a winning record and who has won local tournaments with the army, I feel like I do a pretty good job with them. I have no illusions that I am the best Tau player, but I don't lose too often, and most losses have come when a list has been constructed specifically against Tau (maxed out on jump infantry, 3 squads of SW scouts that can come in off the back edge, etc).

Firewarriors are bad. There are no two ways around it. Their str 5 AP 5 guns are not as effective as the special weapons that other squads can either buy or get for free, and we do not have a large pool of troop choices to pull from (Kroot are also bad, but they are better than FW). It is not uncommon at all to see tournament Tau lists with 1-2 minimum size FW squads in DF who will never disembark from the DF unless it is destroyed.

As far as Tau having the best heavy support, that's pretty questionable. Railguns are great, but one weapon destroyed result on a hammer head makes your opponent giggle as your expensive tank runs around for the rest of the match shooting str 5 ap 5 shots. Broadsides are delicious, until they get stuck in CC, which in 5th ed happens occasionaly on turn 1, pretty common in turn 2, and almost always by turn 3.

Lets face it, the only thing keeping Tau semi-competitive are Crisis Suits and Disruption Pods, and the hit or miss 'piranha wall'. The information leaks on the tantalus lander and the wide spread belief that it will be made available to all SM chapters, is pretty much the nail in the coffin for the 4th ed Tau.

So, laughable special characters, a HQ choice that does more for the enemy than for you, bad troop choices with no good upgrades, heavy support that only has one viable weapon... I'm going to go ahead and say Tau are the worst army in 40k currently. The only possible contender could be Necrons, and that is hinged upon how your local gaming group rules on the sweeping advance/WBB thing

Daemon-Archon wrote:
Your reading is full of fail? If you read the example, the cost of a vet and a book is not inculded with the squad.

And thats why it fails. There isnt a sister player, not even a novice, thats not going to take 10 or 11 sisters in a squad while not being faithful.

Its not an arms race. Its you setting your example up to skew the results to the way you want.

Its full of fail becuase its not going to happen, ever.

carmachu wrote:
Its not an arms race. Its you setting your example up to skew the results to the way you want.

Actually, its me comparing 50 pts of Firewarriors vs 55 pts of SoB, which was what was proposed previously in the thread...

But thanks for reading the thread before making accusations, as well as throwing the thread down the path of "lockhood"

Its already be established that Firewarriors, while not great and not necessarily better then an equal str sisters squad, are not the Worst unit in 40k.

If you have any personal grievance with any of my arguments, send me a PM as opposed to wasting space in this thead/resputtering the same stuff other members have already said when the point was changed days ago.

Meanwhile, back on topic...

@Broken Loose. While I don't disagree that Pyrovores are (one of) the worst units in the game, whats the SW unit that is 20 pt Suicider?

Daemon-Archon wrote:@Broken Loose. While I don't disagree that Pyrovores are (one of) the worst units in the game, whats the SW unit that is 20 pt Suicider?

Lone Wolves. Yeah, not a lot of people realized you get the EW, FNP, Fearless, WS5, and W2 in power armor for just 20 points. Putting them in terminator armor with chainfists and SS is radioactive icing on the cake.

Without a doubt--Heralds of Nurgle. Not only do they suck, but they take up precious HQ slots. They're so bad I wouldn't even take them in a mono-nurgle list.

Necron Flayed Ones.

Dedicated melee unit with crappy initiative and no fleet, no options for power weapons at 18pts/pop.

Ostrakon wrote:Necron Flayed Ones.

Dedicated melee unit with crappy initiative and no fleet, no options for power weapons at 18pts/pop.

If you use them like a standard assault unit then yes, they fold like wet paper. If you try to use them as a counter offensive unit, IE deep striking then attacking dev's or lootas, then they work wonders, as they more than likely will tie up the unit for a turn or so. Granted they probably will die off but that was some extra time bought for the main army to get there. And don't sniff at their terrifying visage, it works well against even fearless units if you win the roll off. Outflanking them can be beneficial too, just gotta gamble a bit.

Kurgash wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Necron Flayed Ones.

Dedicated melee unit with crappy initiative and no fleet, no options for power weapons at 18pts/pop.

If you use them like a standard assault unit then yes, they fold like wet paper. If you try to use them as a counter offensive unit, IE deep striking then attacking dev's or lootas, then they work wonders, as they more than likely will tie up the unit for a turn or so. Granted they probably will die off but that was some extra time bought for the main army to get there. And don't sniff at their terrifying visage, it works well against even fearless units if you win the roll off. Outflanking them can be beneficial too, just gotta gamble a bit.

That's a lot of 'but in this one particular situation where you have better options anyway' apologetics for something that's 18/model and other armies get much better versions of.

I'd rather take scarabs to do that job, since they're cheaper even with DFs, which will allow me to do much more with them.