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Ostrakon wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Necron Flayed Ones.

Dedicated melee unit with crappy initiative and no fleet, no options for power weapons at 18pts/pop.

If you use them like a standard assault unit then yes, they fold like wet paper. If you try to use them as a counter offensive unit, IE deep striking then attacking dev's or lootas, then they work wonders, as they more than likely will tie up the unit for a turn or so. Granted they probably will die off but that was some extra time bought for the main army to get there. And don't sniff at their terrifying visage, it works well against even fearless units if you win the roll off. Outflanking them can be beneficial too, just gotta gamble a bit.

That's a lot of 'but in this one particular situation where you have better options anyway' apologetics for something that's 18/model and other armies get much better versions of.

I'd rather take scarabs to do that job, since they're cheaper even with DFs, which will allow me to do much more with them.

True, but at my FLGS I pretty much know what situation calls for what as people rarely change their armies and I'm trying new 'Cron lists every chance I get. Granted the Flayed Ones give me mixed results but more often than not they pull through with tying up a vital shooting unit or grabbing a scenario point for being in the enemy's deployment zone as per League Scenarios we've done.

I only take 4 anyways, for how I run them not much more is required. Situational unit at best, I know what you are saying.

Kurgash wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Necron Flayed Ones.

Dedicated melee unit with crappy initiative and no fleet, no options for power weapons at 18pts/pop.

If you use them like a standard assault unit then yes, they fold like wet paper. If you try to use them as a counter offensive unit, IE deep striking then attacking dev's or lootas, then they work wonders, as they more than likely will tie up the unit for a turn or so. Granted they probably will die off but that was some extra time bought for the main army to get there. And don't sniff at their terrifying visage, it works well against even fearless units if you win the roll off. Outflanking them can be beneficial too, just gotta gamble a bit.

That's a lot of 'but in this one particular situation where you have better options anyway' apologetics for something that's 18/model and other armies get much better versions of.

I'd rather take scarabs to do that job, since they're cheaper even with DFs, which will allow me to do much more with them.

True, but at my FLGS I pretty much know what situation calls for what as people rarely change their armies and I'm trying new 'Cron lists every chance I get. Granted the Flayed Ones give me mixed results but more often than not they pull through with tying up a vital shooting unit or grabbing a scenario point for being in the enemy's deployment zone as per League Scenarios we've done.

I only take 4 anyways, for how I run them not much more is required. Situational unit at best, I know what you are saying.

Wait, how is a unit of 4 flayed ones somehow managing to survive its trek across the field to te up a "key shooting unit" without being, you know, shot at? If you run the whole way, they're just going to get chewed up. If you DS them in, they're going to be shot to nothing before assaulting and won't even really tie them up for a turn because they'll die anyway.

At least scarabs can turboboost across the table, claim a 2+ cover save (saving them from shooty annihilation with impunity) and have an assault range of 24 inches the next turn anyway. And they're cheaper.

At that crappy point cost, they should have power weapons by default a la Bloodletters.

the easy fix for flayed ones is to make them troops, the secondary fix is either a pts drop or rending. IIRC they have infiltrate and a tough, scoring, outflanking assault unit would be a good choice for pretty much any build.

The problem as is is that they are elites and don&t do much damage and take away pts needed to buy warriors or destroyers.

Ostrakon wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Necron Flayed Ones.

Dedicated melee unit with crappy initiative and no fleet, no options for power weapons at 18pts/pop.

If you use them like a standard assault unit then yes, they fold like wet paper. If you try to use them as a counter offensive unit, IE deep striking then attacking dev's or lootas, then they work wonders, as they more than likely will tie up the unit for a turn or so. Granted they probably will die off but that was some extra time bought for the main army to get there. And don't sniff at their terrifying visage, it works well against even fearless units if you win the roll off. Outflanking them can be beneficial too, just gotta gamble a bit.

That's a lot of 'but in this one particular situation where you have better options anyway' apologetics for something that's 18/model and other armies get much better versions of.

I'd rather take scarabs to do that job, since they're cheaper even with DFs, which will allow me to do much more with them.

True, but at my FLGS I pretty much know what situation calls for what as people rarely change their armies and I'm trying new 'Cron lists every chance I get. Granted the Flayed Ones give me mixed results but more often than not they pull through with tying up a vital shooting unit or grabbing a scenario point for being in the enemy's deployment zone as per League Scenarios we've done.

I only take 4 anyways, for how I run them not much more is required. Situational unit at best, I know what you are saying.

Wait, how is a unit of 4 flayed ones somehow managing to survive its trek across the field to te up a "key shooting unit" without being, you know, shot at? If you run the whole way, they're just going to get chewed up. If you DS them in, they're going to be shot to nothing before assaulting and won't even really tie them up for a turn because they'll die anyway.

At least scarabs can turboboost across the table, claim a 2+ cover save (saving them from shooty annihilation with impunity) and have an assault range of 24 inches the next turn anyway. And they're cheaper.

At that crappy point cost, they should have power weapons by default a la Bloodletters.

My store runs alot building/ruins as their terrain so with my DS i dive in behind the buildings out of their LOS. Like I've said, they work for me because of the terrain I know is being used. Granted I wouldn't take them to a tournament but time and again I run them in a list because, hey I bought them might as well put some mileage on them. And yes, rending would have to be a must for them to be viable as an elite choice or just troops as they are the polar opposite of warriors aside the point cost being the same.

Daemon-Archon wrote:
Actually, its me comparing 50 pts of Firewarriors vs 55 pts of SoB, which was what was proposed previously in the thread...

But thanks for reading the thread before making accusations, as well as throwing the thread down the path of "lockhood"

Its already be established that Firewarriors, while not great and not necessarily better then an equal str sisters squad, are not the Worst unit in 40k.

If you have any personal grievance with any of my arguments, send me a PM as opposed to wasting space in this thead/resputtering the same stuff other members have already said when the point was changed days ago.

I read the whole thing. It fails. It doesnt come close to the reality of the table. Its like comparing 40 points of fire warriors with 40pts of chaos terminators. It doesnt happen, its an illegal squad on one end, just like your example. Its a stupid comaprison that has no basis in reality(or rather the reality of the game)

Miniums squad # is 10 for sisters. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. If your using celestians, who are squad minium of 5, are LD 9. No sister player ever brings a squad of sisters thats not faithful from the troop section. Full stop.

FW arent the worst unit. sPAWN or repentia hold that title.

Thread is tl;dr

But have Vespid Stingwings been mentioned yet?

Oh god, vespid are so bad everyone forgot about them. Designed to kill space marines, and every game I played against them I made a point of taking them out with my marine jump infantry, raptors, in this case.

Kind of insulting to the tau player.

Man, it is close tie between Vespids and Pyrovores. Then again, the Vespids were "designed" to do something the Tau want. Pyrovores don't do anything the Tyranids want, and they still manage to do it poorly.

Man, it is close tie between Vespids and Pyrovores. Then again, the Vespids were "designed" to do something the Tau want. Pyrovores don't do anything the Tyranids want, and they still manage to do it poorly.

Pyrovores, Vespid, Repentia, Spawn are ALL miles and miles better than an Ethereal who in turn is miles and miles better than the Space Pope.

Skyrays are also worse than all those units except maybe Vespids.

Vespids are "made" to kill MEQ right. Well lets compare a 16 point Vespid vs a 10 Point FW (who themselves are a poor choice and over costed). Vespid has AP3 the FW as AP5 so the vespid punches through Marine armour This makes them far better at this job doesn't it?

Well no it doesn't and here's why. Punching throw trhe armour means the space marine will not a get save so for every 3 wounds caused 3 marines will die. Contrast with the FW and it will be 1 death per 3 marines. Vespids are therefore 3 times as good against the one thing they are designed to kill better than a FW right?

Again no they have a 12" range at this range the FW gets twice as many shots. So the ratio is 3:2 not looking quite so good and when you consider the FW can also shoot up to 30" he then needs to get of 1 shot before rapid fire range to do equally well against the one thing the Vespids are supposed to be best at! Or you could look at it as 150 points of FWs will kill exactly as many MEQs as 160 points of vespid at the 12" range and obviously infinitely more at further range...

So the one thing they "excel" at they are are actually slihty worse at than one of the worst troops choices in the game...

Pyrovores are OK they are great situationally. The acid blood can be devastating if they are charged by ork boyz and 3 in a pod can ruin a green tide army. Their issue is the same as Lictors, Deathleaper and Ymgarl Stealers; Zoanthropes and Hive Guard are must haves for competitive games in fact ideally you'd want 2 units of each...

However none of this is relevant, the Space Pope costs 205 points and actually damages your army whilst he's easy to kill (which makes half your army run away) and totally incapable of doing any damage to anyone. No one else comes close 205 points of actually just making your army worse you'd actually be better off just taking 200 points less to the table than using the Space Pope!!!

Yeah, sorry, you're right. All hail the mighty Space Pope.

I now Nominate the Space Pope as the worst unit ever.

I'll agree that the Space Pope is worse than the Pyrovore, but I will contest your point that the Pyrovore has situational use. What good is a highly specialized and ineffective anti-infantry unit in an entire codex filled with better anti-infantry units? Hormagaunts, the Doom, tyrants, devilgaunts, gargoyles, biovores, or warriors could wreck boyz mobs easier than pyrovores.

I'll agree that the Space Pope is worse than the Pyrovore, but I will contest your point that the Pyrovore has situational use. What good is a highly specialized and ineffective anti-infantry unit in an entire codex filled with better anti-infantry units? Hormagaunts, the Doom, tyrants, devilgaunts, gargoyles, biovores, or warriors could wreck boyz mobs easier than pyrovores.

Just because the codex has better options doesn't mean it is a terrible unit just a tad redundant. Like LC terminators aren't terrible but you'd just be an idiot to ever take them as you are so much better off with the TH/SS ones.

However I'd contest that ANY of the units you've mentioned would do well against Orks unless they got the charge. That is the beauty of the Pyrovore it can spod down next to them coat them in flame and then allow them to attack it and do horrednous damage with acid blood. A Tyrant would be ripped a new one by equal points of Orks on the charge!

It's not a great unit and they fill a role that can be done by most of the army (anti-infantry) but they do it in a different way. Situational yes and a tad reliant on your opponent being dumb (but hey if he's using Orks...) or shall we be kinder and say enthusiastic . But the unit's main problem is that the Elites choices open to Tyranids are awesome and the Pyrovore would be a waste.

Ok the Space pope is horrible. But I think repentia are the Second worst unit. They are basically uncontrollable and will lose to just about any assault unit. They are completely useless.

We could say that every unit is good against this, bad against that, and the discussion could go on forever. However, if we look at which unit is least effective for a high cost as a basis of being "worst unit" I have to say that IMHO and from a SM player point of view there would be only one unit that comes to my mind as WORST.

Space Marine Vanguard Veterans. These guys just don't do the job they are intended to. Having "Heroic Intervention" just turns these guys into a REALLY expensive Assault Squad that will probably scatter, and the dice gods don't look kindly on point sinking.

We could say that every unit is good against this, bad against that, and the discussion could go on forever. However, if we look at which unit is least effective for a high cost as a basis of being "worst unit" I have to say that IMHO and from a SM player point of view there would be only one unit that comes to my mind as WORST.

Space Marine Vanguard Veterans. These guys just don't do the job they are intended to. Having "Heroic Intervention" just turns these guys into a REALLY expensive Assault Squad that will probably scatter, and the dice gods don't look kindly on point sinking.

Space Pope is 205 points and just damages your army. when he's alive he prevents your soilders from running from combat so you can't shoot at enemy assaulters (given that no Tau unit survives 2 rounds of combat), so he can just roll up your line with impunity as you'll not get that turn to shoot him before he assaults you again. Then when he dies the few guys left all run away.

So you spend 205 point for something that doesn't kill ANY enemy troops whilst making your entire army worse. Sorry Vangaurd aren't even close. They are over costed and under effective true but taking them doesn't make your other troops significantly worse and they will do damage to the enemy and your entire army won't run away just because they die...

Any Tau Ethereal. They suck major monkey

Does Space Pope at least get a cool Pope hat with lasers?

Does Space Pope at least get a cool Pope hat with lasers?

Hat yes, lasers no...