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Can we differentiate between "evil" and "stupid"?

I would hesitate to call Hitler evil. He was a traumatised man, who wanted to do the best for his country & people. He wanted the Jews out - he didn't neccesarily want to kill them. He waged a power-hungry, confident and aggressive war against inferior odds, tried to expand Germany's borders. Nothing that special - we had being doing that for hundreds of years. It's just that the industrialisation of war in this period makes it seem so much more horrific, and because it's so recent. If we had our contemporary opinions, and, say looked back to previous centuries, would Oliver Cromwell and the Crusader Kings not be similarly evil?

If you want to extrapolate xenophobic and anti-semitic people as evil, look at the rest of western society during this period. Churchill was a fervent anti-semite, Roosevelt's government did nothing to shift the old anti-semitic upper-class that existed in the USA. France, even, wasn't very fond of Jews.

And Frazz, we're trying to think outside of the box. Saddam, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are boring.

sA

I think we need to see a return to the times of giving people great titles, such as the obvious Alexander the Great, but also Vlad the Impaler and Ivan the Terrible... It just makes things so much easier.

There would be Hitler the Terrible/Horrible/spanker, Saddam the Possibly Evil, Oprah the Corpulent, Nixon the Idiosyncratic...

smiling Assassin wrote:He wanted the Jews out - he didn't neccesarily want to kill them

Are you trying to suggest the holocaust was some tragic error in which Hitler had no knowing part?

There's a disturbing amount of Hitler love in this thread.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:.... Oprah the Corpulent, ........

Thread winner!!!

... George Spiggot the Disturbed...

There's no such thing as evil. It's just your opinion on what they have done, or do. Stop throwing evil around like it's fact. =P

'Evil people' are usually just enemies of the western world. I'm surprised Osama Bin Laden hasn't popped up yet, even though there still isn't any solid proof that he did anything.

I do believe this thread has made me even more bitter and depressed about the human race. Come on Zombie Games, restore my faith in humanity!

George Spiggott wrote:

smiling Assassin wrote:He wanted the Jews out - he didn't neccesarily want to kill them

Are you trying to suggest the holocaust was some tragic error in which Hitler had no knowing part?

There's a disturbing amount of Hitler love in this thread.

No, it was something he authorised when he got desperate to follow up on the policies he had promised. He authorised it, and in a contemporary sense he was negligent for the things that went on in the camps.

[Mushed up sentence..]

No apologism, no mercy. He led a fanatical and insane following, he was not an evil man.

sA

Something he authorized? You just admitted he authorized the murder of millions of people. Thats er "the murder of 6,000,000 Jews."


This thread scares me now. Yea though i walki through the valley of the shadow of the most evil person in history thread I shall have no fear. My EPIC FAIL pic, it comforts me. My Oh No You Didn't blurb, it leadeth me to the path of righteousness. I will fear no reply.

smiling Assassin wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

smiling Assassin wrote:He wanted the Jews out - he didn't neccesarily want to kill them

Are you trying to suggest the holocaust was some tragic error in which Hitler had no knowing part?

There's a disturbing amount of Hitler love in this thread.

No, it was something he authorised when he got desperate to follow up on the policies he had promised. He authorised it, and in a contemporary sense he was negligent for the things that went on in the camps.

I wouldn't call him the murderer of 6,000,000 Jews though.

No apologism, no mercy. He led a fanatical and insane following, he was not an evil man.

sA

He was evil, and he was also damn smart. No way he would have made germany the powerhouse it was in only 2 decades if he wasn't.

Also... have you ever heard one of his speeches? He says to DESTROY them, he wasn't walking around the issue like you are suggesting.

Soladrin wrote:He was evil, and he was also damn smart. No way he would have made germany the powerhouse it was in only 2 decades if he wasn't.

Also... have you ever heard one of his speeches? He says to DESTROY them, he wasn't walking around the issue like you are suggesting.

100% fair point.

However Nazi policy never followed a path of elimination on a mass scale until ~1941.

Not trying to turn this away from the topic, but it was easy to make 4 out of the 2's of Jews and Communism, and that was a widely accepted strategy during this period. (Churchill called for the international elimination of Bolshevism and linked it to the Jews in the same breath)

In this way he could gain a lot of support from the right-wing leanings of the country (which he needed) by linking his hate of Communism to something they could direct themselves against, the Communists having been backed thoroughly into a corner in the German political scene by the time that Hitler came to power. He marked the Jewish 'world domination' conspiracy plot (widely thought about in the USA and the UK at this time in high circles) to Bolshevism.

And Frazz: I got my words mixed up. I would call him the murderer of 6,000,000 Jews, I would not call him an evil man.

Just in the same way that when a crusader's country invades the Middle East during the Middle Ages, and the men have God as their cause and on their side, they are not evil men even though they slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents.

sA

Well, i think he looked quite ridiculous in his madness during those speeches. However, i quite doubt i would've found it the same if i were actually there, with SD's motherful watch on me

And as for the ones saying his guilt is not fully his, he WAS the leader, he WAS the Reichsfuhrer, HE was the one millions were looking up to, not Himmler, not Heydrich, not Goebbels. One word from him and any one of them would've been silently suppressed.Well, i think he looked quite ridiculous in his madness during those speeches. However, i quite doubt i would've found it the same if i were actually there, with SD's motherful watch on me

And as for the ones saying his guilt is not fully his, he WAS the leader, he WAS the Reichsfuhrer, HE was the one millions were looking up to, not Himmler, not Heydrich, not Goebbels. One word from him and any one of them would've been silently suppressed.

As for the ones saying he didn't know about it, i'd say you have to be literally blind or have an army of David Blaines to hide the slaughter of millions away from you. He didn't know about Auschwitz, Dachau or Treblinka? What did he think those were, holiday locations?

Oh, and i find Stalin to be quite worse. But the irony is, were the Soviet Union to lose the war, it would've been Stalin put to the wall and judged for his crimes. He was only judged morally and mostly post-mortem

And i'm not even mentioning Mao, Pol Pot, and others. They're not worthy of me saying their names
Heil Tizz!

smiling Assassin wrote:[
And Frazz: I got my words mixed up. I would call him the murderer of 6,000,000 Jews, I would not call him an evil man.

This...is...wo

Just in the same way that when a crusader's country invades the Middle East during the Middle Ages, and the men have God as their cause and on their side, they are not evil men even though they slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents.

sA

They can still be evil. Al Qaeda thinks they have God literally on their side. The cut people's heads off.

Let me see if I can help out sA here.

Evil- 5 dictionary results
e·vil   /ˈivəl/ Show Spelled[ee-vuhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2.harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3.characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4.due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5.marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.
–noun
6.that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
7.the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8.the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9.harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.
10.anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.
11.a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence: the evils of alcohol.
12.a disease, as king's evil.

Hitler = Evil
Crusaders that slaughtered innnocents = Evil


There ya go.

GG

Frazzled wrote:

smiling Assassin wrote:[
And Frazz: I got my words mixed up. I would call him the murderer of 6,000,000 Jews, I would not call him an evil man.

This...is...wo

Just in the same way that when a crusader's country invades the Middle East during the Middle Ages, and the men have God as their cause and on their side, they are not evil men even though they slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents.

sA

They can still be evil. Al Qaeda thinks they have God literally on their side. The cut people's heads off.

No, what is the intent behind these things? We run by different definitions of the word evil. We have to accept that. Actually this is interesting..

Just as one man's yadda yadda yadda yadda.. We have different opinions on what classifies somebody as evil as opposed to stupid, ignorant, and irresponsible in the highest degree.

I call Charles Manson, the Yorkshire Ripper, Ian Huntley etc. "evil."

PS. I don't care what the dictionary says. Word have meaning because of what they are used for. It does say "intention" in that list.

sA

smiling Assassin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

smiling Assassin wrote:[
And Frazz: I got my words mixed up. I would call him the murderer of 6,000,000 Jews, I would not call him an evil man.

This...is...wo

Just in the same way that when a crusader's country invades the Middle East during the Middle Ages, and the men have God as their cause and on their side, they are not evil men even though they slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents.

sA

They can still be evil. Al Qaeda thinks they have God literally on their side. The cut people's heads off.

No, what is the intent behind these things? We run by different definitions of the word evil. We have to accept that. Actually this is interesting..

Just as one man's yadda yadda yadda yadda.. We have different opinions on what classifies somebody as evil as opposed to stupid, ignorant, and irresponsible in the highest degree.

I call Charles Manson, the Yorkshire Ripper, Ian Huntley etc. "evil."

PS. I don't care what the dictionary says. Word have meaning because of what they are used for. It does say "intention" in that list.

sA

Okay.. following your logic...

Mass muder - not evil

Murder of a few individuals - evil

Are you a night lords player?

"The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Joseph Stalin.

Oh do you not read?

Innapropriate quote, Frazz, anyway.

No, just plain wrong.

Intention of serial killers to rape, murder and mutilate because of insane fantasies and bloodthirsty..ness, I think is evil.

People who slaughter millions to try and better their country and their civilisation, I don't see as 'evil'. I see it as ignorant, despicable, ridiculous, and horrifying. Not root-down plain bloodthirsty evil.

sA

Frazzled wrote: "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Joseph Stalin.

See, he was a nice guy! I bet he had a Kitten. Called Olga, who was the runt of the litter and he nursed it back to health and loved it as if it were his own flesh and blood.

Gwar! wrote:

Frazzled wrote: "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Joseph Stalin.

See, he was a nice guy! I bet he had a Kitten. Called Olga, who was the runt of the litter and he nursed it back to health and loved it as if it were his own flesh and blood.

Well he did put all those people into the Gulag death camps because he had the best intentions.

Frazzled wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Frazzled wrote: "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Joseph Stalin.

See, he was a nice guy! I bet he had a Kitten. Called Olga, who was the runt of the litter and he nursed it back to health and loved it as if it were his own flesh and blood.

Well he did put all those people into the Gulag death camps because he had the best intentions.

I bet they all made fun of Olga for being so small and tiny, which made the poor kitten cry.

Gwar! wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Frazzled wrote: "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Joseph Stalin.

See, he was a nice guy! I bet he had a Kitten. Called Olga, who was the runt of the litter and he nursed it back to health and loved it as if it were his own flesh and blood.

Well he did put all those people into the Gulag death camps because he had the best intentions.

I bet they all made fun of Olga for being so small and tiny, which made the poor kitten cry.

Yes it was all Olga the Cat's fault. We should have known. Here she is as kitty. We should have known.

I would like to nominate Martha Stewart.

Do you have that permanently on your clipboard?!

sA

sA's ability to rationalise evil is astounding.

He gets two thumbs up from this guy.



GG

generalgrog wrote:sA's ability to rationalise evil is astounding.

He gets two thumbs up from this guy.



GG

Oh your people and your dictionaries.

sA

"No MiniMe, we do not nibble on our kitty."

And in tribute:

Cheesecat wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before but how about Elizabeth Báthory who After her husband's death, she and four collaborators were accused of torturing and killing hundreds of girls and young women, with one witness

attributing to them over 600 victims, though the number for which they were convicted was 80. Elizabeth herself was neither tried nor convicted. In 1610, however, she was imprisoned in the Csejte Castle, where she remained bricked in a

set of rooms until her death four years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

+1. I wanted to go through the thread and see if anybody through this up. Crazy stuff. All the "dictators" take a second fiddle IMO because it becomes a institution of death rather than one person being truly evil. Bathing in the blood of your virgin subjects... nasty and twisted.

smiling Assassin wrote:Oh do you not read?

Innapropriate quote, Frazz, anyway.

No, just plain wrong.

Intention of serial killers to rape, murder and mutilate because of insane fantasies and bloodthirsty..ness, I think is evil.

People who slaughter millions to try and better their country and their civilisation, I don't see as 'evil'. I see it as ignorant, despicable, ridiculous, and horrifying. Not root-down plain bloodthirsty evil.

sA

So.. the only difference between the two is that you give serial killers the evil label...?

Smiling Assassin wrote: Nazi policy never followed a path of elimination on a mass scale until ~1941.

Not trying to turn this away from the topic, but it was easy to make 4 out of the 2's of Jews and Communism, and that was a widely accepted strategy during this period. (Churchill called for the international elimination of Bolshevism and linked it to the Jews in the same breath)

In this way he could gain a lot of support from the right-wing leanings of the country (which he needed) by linking his hate of Communism to something they could direct themselves against, the Communists having been backed thoroughly into a corner in the German political scene by the time that Hitler came to power. He marked the Jewish 'world domination' conspiracy plot (widely thought about in the USA and the UK at this time in high circles) to Bolshevism.

Yes, he wasn't the first to come up with the notion of 'International Jewry' and many of the early Bolshevik leaders were indeed Jewish but that's not what gives him his infamous position is it? If it were he'd be on a par with say Henry Ford. His legacy is (along with the war) the death camps which killed 11 million people (6 million is the number of Jews killed in the camps) intentionally, not negligently, through forced labour and deliberate extermination.

What's a mass scale in your book? Enough to require a dedicated camp? Dachau opened in 1933.

This is evil to me. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire Ripper) is merely insane.