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just cause bolters are short range in the game doesnt mean they are in the fluff IIRC there are sceens of spacemarines taking targets down from a mile away with a bolter

For reference, Codex: Armageddon states that a heavy stubber is equivalent to a modern M60 machine gun, which uses .308 caliber rounds.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:

Melissia wrote:Lasguns being too weak is a bit misleading though, as they're strong enough to disembody limbs.

You've seen this?

in the sense of actually seeing it? No, fo course not, lasguns don't exist (But then neither do bolters).

But in the fluff? Yes, it's been shown numerous times.

Am I the only one who read: "The man tried to get up, but barzano shot him in the face" and laughed?

It's in nightbringer, near the end, when Barzano escapes the prison room and proceeds to violently kill every rebel PDF in sight. Something about it made me laugh for several minutes. The irony of this adept killing so ruthlessly was hilarious. Maybe I shouldn't read at 3:30 AM....

'Cept of course that the adept is already revealed to be by that point, but yeah it was quite hilarious especially with the bonesaw

Guitardian wrote:yeah and a .50 cal can shoot a lot further than 24".

Actually if you want to be purely realistic, a bolter round (due to its comibination of firing methods including the rocket propellant) could very well actually have better range and better accuracy at range.

I wouldn't base fluffy weapon range off of what they are capable of in the tabletop game. In fluff most weapons are capable of realistic range for what they are, in the game it seems significantly scaled down.

So as I was reading this forum, I noticed that alot of the information of the M2 is for the Civilian type of ammo, since a civilian round's FPS is roughly 2900, but the Military's ammo has a much higher FPS, about 3400 FPS, depending on the ammo selection. And if you are hit in the head with a 50 cal, much, much more than 1/4 of your head will explode, if your hit dead center, all that will be left is a stump. Different nations use different powders with different amounts. If you held a mill-spec .50 in one hand and a civlian=spec 50 in the other, you will notice a siginficant amount of weight difference. In on the mythbusters with the .50, they we're using cilvilian-spec rounds, not mil-spec. Remember, TV shows are granted access to mil-spec weapons, and no, Future Weapons is not a reliable source since they are paid to show the company's weapons in a positive light.

Anyways, why bolters? Makes things seem more orginal and that saying a bolter is a .75 rocket makes the models seem more believable, since if they called it a ".75 cal Rifle" people would look at the model and say, "How would that work?" since in my opinon, the bolters look like they would hold 7.62mm rounds.

PS there are some jobs in the Army that you would have to be "too crazy" to do.

A real life version of the bolter.

http://youtu.be/tnrizaO-X00

Shas09 wrote:A real life version of the bolter.

http://youtu.be/tnrizaO-X00

Its just not though is it

Its a shotgun a bolter is a mini RPG in essence

But they supposedly shoot much faster than a RPG. I sort of envisioned them like a big autofiring repeater shotgun with self propelled ammo and wierd recoil compesation technology and um... the empras blessing or something... wait a minute how on earth do we analyze a weapon from 40000 years from now in a universe full of strange combination of magic, faith, technology, and gigantic hulk-like beings in improbable suits of armor? I guess it's just easier to say it shoots 7.62N and leave it alone. How a short barrelled gun with a barrel bigger than an 8 foot tall guys fist can possibly be understood is just one of the sacred secrets of the Tech Priests.

Remember the models aren't exactly accurate to the fluff.

Almost nothing translates directly from the tabletop to the fluff. The closes the tabletop probably has gotten to being in alignment with the fluff (at least with the Space Marines) would be that Movie Marines joke rules. That codex actually perfectly lists WHY the tabletop isn't in line with the fluff. What's more fun? 10 nigh invincible marines that kill everything? Or what we've got now?

ChrisWWII wrote:Almost nothing translates directly from the tabletop to the fluff. The closes the tabletop probably has gotten to being in alignment with the fluff (at least with the Space Marines) would be that Movie Marines joke rules. That codex actually perfectly lists WHY the tabletop isn't in line with the fluff. What's more fun? 10 nigh invincible marines that kill everything? Or what we've got now?

One-hundred nigh invincible marines would be more fun! (Space Wolves, if possible, please.)

I don't know if I quite get the obsession with the 50 Cal goin' on in here, but let's look at the bolter in game terms, their purpose is actually pretty clear.

The Autogun is described as the equivalent to a modern assault rifle (5.56, 7.62, whatever) and it has Str 3 with AP-. That means it has a 50% chance of causing a fatal injury if a human soldier (Imperial Guardsmen) is struck by it. That's pretty lethal. The guardsman's flak armor (which is roughly analogous to body armor) protects that soldier 1/3rd of the time, not a lot, but that's some protection. If you want to know why it's not better, do some research on high-velocity ammunitions (which are fired from assault rifle/autoguns) vs. standard body armor.

The bolter, fired against that same guardsman will wound 66% of the time and it completely ignores his armor...like it's not even there. That is a huge increase in lethality, keep in mind that the bolter is TWICE as lethal than the Autogun/Assault Rifle, the high powered assault rifle when looking at the in-game numbers.

Now, think about the types of enemies the space marines are likely to engage, other enemies troop units, very few of which can withstand any amount of firepower that the bolter puts out. and it can put out a LOT. Gaunts, Orks, Kroot, Eldar Guardians and other Humans to name a few; most are fatally wounded often (50% or better) and their armor is completely defeated by the bolter...the premiere anti-infantry weapon of the space marine is shockingly, well, anti-infantry.

Granted our perception of the weapon is a little skewed because as often as not we'll see our marines fighting chaos marines, other marine chapters, necrons, whatever. But keep in mind, these are probably not the majority of the battles marines are likely to see on a regular basis, they're too busy putting down traitor legions of mad planetary governors and keeping those dawn Tau off of our lawn.

ChrisWWII wrote:Almost nothing translates directly from the tabletop to the fluff. The closes the tabletop probably has gotten to being in alignment with the fluff (at least with the Space Marines) would be that Movie Marines joke rules. That codex actually perfectly lists WHY the tabletop isn't in line with the fluff. What's more fun? 10 nigh invincible marines that kill everything? Or what we've got now?

Oh hell no, the Movie Marine rules were stupidly unfluffy.

BenManicom wrote:

Shas09 wrote:A real life version of the bolter.

http://youtu.be/tnrizaO-X00

Its just not though is it

Its a shotgun a bolter is a mini RPG in essence

Well it can be just like that, it can be loaded with explosive rounds!

I seem to recall from iron snakes, dark eldar being shot with bolters and more or less exploding and flying 18 million mph into the nearest tree trunk

If you mean Brothers of the Snake, I remember reading a lot of bad reviews about that book.

it wasn't the best of Abnett's books, but it wasn't bad.

some of the battle scenes involving the Orks were a little OTT in terms of scale. 10 marines holding off thousands of orks in open terrain with nothing, but bolter, blade, lance and shield, All without taking a single casuality.


the DE were a little underpowered, but it was better then the Ork battle.

it was also a little underwhelming when he killed the deamon-thing that had posessed the other Sergent.

it wasn't the best of Abnett's books, but it wasn't bad.

some of the battle scenes involving the Orks were a little OTT in terms of scale. 10 marines holding off thousands of orks in open terrain with nothing, but bolter, blade, lance and shield, All without taking a single casuality.


the DE were a little underpowered, but it was better then the Ork battle.

it was also a little underwhelming when he killed the deamon-thing that had posessed the other Sergent.

threadjack

It's remarkable how Future Weapons has such a fascinating concept, and would be a show that I utterly would love, but instead refuse to watch because of the host's super-serious whispering voice.

Melissia wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Almost nothing translates directly from the tabletop to the fluff. The closes the tabletop probably has gotten to being in alignment with the fluff (at least with the Space Marines) would be that Movie Marines joke rules. That codex actually perfectly lists WHY the tabletop isn't in line with the fluff. What's more fun? 10 nigh invincible marines that kill everything? Or what we've got now?

Oh hell no, the Movie Marine rules were stupidly unfluffy.

I will admit that what I know about them is hearsay, and not me reading the rules themselves, but I have heard some horror stories.....I guess by saying they are 'the closest to fluff' I'm saying that they're nigh invincible, and ignoring any of the 'stunt double' rules or anything....BUt hey, they were joke rules for a reason.

Standard rules are closer to the fluff than Movie Marine rules

more realistic would be to have every marine have 2 wounds, FNP, 2 attacks, a CCW in addition to the pistol and bolter, Bolters would be Assault 3 and they would cost 40 pts each.

The .998 Godwyn pattern Bolter basically A handheld approx 30mm Assault Rifle. 30mm is pretty good at making holes in buildings and cover nevermind, human beings, xenos and armoured vehicles.

other things that fire 30mm or around that calibre



Well actually thats 25mm, so a Space Marine has more Firepower than an M2 Bradley (minus the TOW missile!)

This is a 27mm Mauser Cannon used on alot of fighter Aircraft world wide, so a bolter would be roughly similiar.

This is 30mm GAU cannon from the A-10 Tank buster - Kick Ass, think about it!

So the real question is why not take a Boltgun!

It's not just caliber that determines a bullet's size and destructive capacity... caliber is just thickness. You also need to consider length, weight, materials used, the actual internal structure (FMJ versus hollow point versus explosive), etc.

Yeah, all valid however bigger shell =NEQ (net explosive Quantity) on target and therefore howmuch of a mess you make when you SMASH IT! all else is just ballistics..

... which assists the round in going faster / maintaining speed over longer distance and therefor delivering more kinetic force.

Bolters should actually increase in power as the range increases






so Str4 up to 24"

Str5 from 24" to 30"

Str6 from 30" to 36"

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters should actually increase in power as the range increases






so Str4 up to 24"

Str5 from 24" to 30"

Str6 from 30" to 36"

If you start trying to apply the rational laws of physics to 40k...then you'll end up with a lot more questions than answers.

I doubt the strength of the hit would increase that much anyway. You're talking about increasing it to nearly autocannon level.

I don't think the strength would increase at all-- remember, a human inside and outside of power armor is still strength three. And a marine inside or outside of power armor is still strength four-- yet both human and astartes power armor dramatically increases their strength (almost doubling it in the case of some humans).