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Made in gb
Fickle Fury of Chaos




Scotland, UK

I think it's because the bolter symbolises the space marine: It's their sacred weapon and they are humanity's sacred weapon
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Kilkrazy wrote:The answer is that we already have equal or better weapons using less complex technology for every purpose for which you might want a bolter.
So we have a weapon as well suited for killing Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and so on as the Bolter, which can be given as a basic weapon (IE, a rifle/carbine/smg) for soldiers?

Keep in mind that an Ork can shrug off multiple lasgun shots with once their adrenaline gets going. Lasguns are actually quite powerful weapons compared to what we have now (removing limbs in a single shot, for instance), and have a full auto setting to boot. Yet Orks are tough enough, fast enough, and numerous enough taht they regularly get into close combat.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/07/25 22:39:16


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Ohio, Former the Yukon

Yeah the lasgun is really sweet. Imagine a weapon that hits at least as hard as a contemporary round, then on top of the awesome sunday it has no recoil, shoots straight, and the business end strikes at the speed of light. Sounds like a great weapon system to me. And the Bolter is better!!!
But yeah seriously I dont think we have anything that is man portable that would effectively take out an Ork, much less a Necron. We got tons of stuff that could do it yes, but other than an RPG, or 40mm Grenade nothing else man portable to my view is powerful enough.


No Hit! No Wound! No Save! Man these Eldar have crap for one of the oldest races in the Galaxy.
running away fast isnt near as good as making a big hole. 
   
Made in us
Despised Traitorous Cultist




Buffalo, NY

Keep in mind Bolters aren't really "basic". True they can be given to say, Guard sergeants in Bolt Pistol form, but they are usually specialized weapons in the Imperium as far as overall production by compare to something like a Lasgun or Autogun. It is a devastating weapon by design but is also rather fiddly in maintenance and has a generally low ammo count. It is given to Space Marines due to them having the ability to use it to it's full potential (able to fire a true Bolter, not the watered-down versions that Guard and others get) and the ability to constantly maintain it to keep it at optimal lethal performance. The funny thing is that the fluff is kinda back-and-forth with Bolters and their rarity, so it's a bit hard to say exactly how "rare" the weapon really is. (According to the Necromunda fluff, a Plasma Pistol is more available, as well as it's ammo, than any Bolt-style weapon and it's ammo)

And as far as taking off limbs with a Lasgun, I take it that was most likely a high-powered shot that was aimed very well or hit in the right spot. According to the book Rebel Winter, even Carapace can be blown through by a high-powered, close-range shot with a Lasgun. It's a nasty piece of work.

And as far as that thing about the Heavy Stubber, it said in the Rouge Trader book "Heavy stubs are clumsy just like the twentieth century heavy machineguns they resemble. Their use is mostly confined to yokel militia units" and next to that it has a picture of what a Heavy stub would be and it looks very similar to an MG42.

The best resemblance we would have to modern times would be the Stub gun which, from the picture, is a M1911 Colt .45.

Armies:
Night Lords: 540 points
Orkz: ~2500
Catachans: ~500

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Melissia wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The answer is that we already have equal or better weapons using less complex technology for every purpose for which you might want a bolter.
So we have a weapon as well suited for killing Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and so on as the Bolter, which can be given as a basic weapon (IE, a rifle/carbine/smg) for soldiers?

Keep in mind that an Ork can shrug off multiple lasgun shots with once their adrenaline gets going. Lasguns are actually quite powerful weapons compared to what we have now (removing limbs in a single shot, for instance), and have a full auto setting to boot. Yet Orks are tough enough, fast enough, and numerous enough taht they regularly get into close combat.


The bolter can't be given as a basic weapon. It is the sacred tool of the SMs, each one is handcrafted by decades trained workmen and the bullets are also individually carved from solid kryptonite using basic hand tools.

For Orks we have mycota.

For everything else we have the grenade machine gun, the 10 gauge shotgun, the 50-cal HMG, the RPG 7, and so on.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Jay-Man McDougall wrote:Yeah the lasgun is really sweet. Imagine a weapon that hits at least as hard as a contemporary round, then on top of the awesome sunday it has no recoil, shoots straight, and the business end strikes at the speed of light. Sounds like a great weapon system to me. And the Bolter is better!!!
But yeah seriously I dont think we have anything that is man portable that would effectively take out an Ork, much less a Necron. We got tons of stuff that could do it yes, but other than an RPG, or 40mm Grenade nothing else man portable to my view is powerful enough.


Well FWIW, it's kind of hard to compare these silly fake weapons to modern weapons, because modern militaries fight completely differently than 40k armies. The majority of casualties in actual combat are inflicted by crew served weapons and artillery. To think that hand to hand accounts for even 1% of all casualties (or over 50% as is the case in most 40k games...) is absolutely laughable.

There's a lot of strategic and tactical retardation in 40k that can't possibly be explained in the context of reality, so it's be just to write these things off as "Grimdark" and move on.

Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Ohio, Former the Yukon

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Jay-Man McDougall wrote:Yeah the lasgun is really sweet. Imagine a weapon that hits at least as hard as a contemporary round, then on top of the awesome sunday it has no recoil, shoots straight, and the business end strikes at the speed of light. Sounds like a great weapon system to me. And the Bolter is better!!!
But yeah seriously I dont think we have anything that is man portable that would effectively take out an Ork, much less a Necron. We got tons of stuff that could do it yes, but other than an RPG, or 40mm Grenade nothing else man portable to my view is powerful enough.


Well FWIW, it's kind of hard to compare these silly fake weapons to modern weapons, because modern militaries fight completely differently than 40k armies. The majority of casualties in actual combat are inflicted by crew served weapons and artillery. To think that hand to hand accounts for even 1% of all casualties (or over 50% as is the case in most 40k games...) is absolutely laughable.

There's a lot of strategic and tactical retardation in 40k that can't possibly be explained in the context of reality, so it's be just to write these things off as "Grimdark" and move on.


Traffic accidents and friendly fire account for more causualties in modern conflict than HtH.
All i said was

Imagine a weapon that hits at least as hard as a contemporary .....

Its all speculative. besides which no one can fight a war like they do in 40K. Its completely rediculous. in most of the fluff i have read there little or no emphasis on Air to Air and Air defense. And considering everything has to land on a planet before its deployed, Air Defense should be a primary concern. Almost all the planets have star ports, but almost nothing is said about Anti Air equipment. But its all done to keep it simple, to keep the game playable. Which meshs nicely with the equipment provided. Tanks are way cooler than a turret with four barrels on it pointing almost straight up.


No Hit! No Wound! No Save! Man these Eldar have crap for one of the oldest races in the Galaxy.
running away fast isnt near as good as making a big hole. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

actually, AA defenses show up ALL the time in the fluff.

Warriors of Ultramar, the Planetary capitol is protected by Servitor manned automated Quad Auto-cannons that are able to keep the Tyranids away from the City(at least until shutdown)

Space Wolf omnibus. Ragnars Drop Pod takes AA fire, but only lands on its side.

macragge is protected by masses of orbital satilites armed with Torpedoes, Planet to Ship Missile silos.....


Marines either use Drop Pods(Which are extremly difficult to target) or they bombard AA defenses before going in. Guard bombard. Tyranids simply flood the area with bodies.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Ohio, Former the Yukon

Grey Templar wrote:actually, AA defenses show up ALL the time in the fluff.

Warriors of Ultramar, the Planetary capitol is protected by Servitor manned automated Quad Auto-cannons that are able to keep the Tyranids away from the City(at least until shutdown)

Space Wolf omnibus. Ragnars Drop Pod takes AA fire, but only lands on its side.

macragge is protected by masses of orbital satilites armed with Torpedoes, Planet to Ship Missile silos.....


Marines either use Drop Pods(Which are extremly difficult to target) or they bombard AA defenses before going in. Guard bombard. Tyranids simply flood the area with bodies.


Cool. I stand corrected. Ive read maybe 12-15 40K novels and nothing really stands out in my mind as having mentioned AA. But the library is huge. I was wondering why they didnt in any case. Im glad that aspect of conflict hasnt been ignored. Like I said though. Nothing stands out in my mind. Not saying it isnt there.


No Hit! No Wound! No Save! Man these Eldar have crap for one of the oldest races in the Galaxy.
running away fast isnt near as good as making a big hole. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Most AA defense mentions are little one liners before the invasion hits the dirt.

if you read any books with a Planetary Invasion in it AA is probably in there, just not a huge deal.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Ohio, Former the Yukon

Grey Templar wrote:Most AA defense mentions are little one liners before the invasion hits the dirt.

if you read any books with a Planetary Invasion in it AA is probably in there, just not a huge deal.


That would explain why it really dosnt stand out in my mind. I just read 4 Souldrinker novels and they dont mention it even once. I think they mention something about a blind spot in the defenses on a starfort though.


No Hit! No Wound! No Save! Man these Eldar have crap for one of the oldest races in the Galaxy.
running away fast isnt near as good as making a big hole. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Kilkrazy wrote:The bolter can't be given as a basic weapon. It is the sacred tool of the SMs, each one is handcrafted by decades trained workmen and the bullets are also individually carved from solid kryptonite using basic hand tools.
The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle both use the boltgun as a basic weapon. Orks use something very similar to a boltgun as a basic weapon (though as with all Ork tech, it's hardly standard). If you really wish, try comparing what special forces get as basic weapons (for example, the FN SCAR and SOPMOD M4), as they are the closest to the two organizations.

Jay-Man McDougal: The Cain books mention air defense a few times (hydras taking out spore pods for example, and fighter-based air defense as well).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/07/26 00:21:21


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Ohio, Former the Yukon

Melissia wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The bolter can't be given as a basic weapon. It is the sacred tool of the SMs, each one is handcrafted by decades trained workmen and the bullets are also individually carved from solid kryptonite using basic hand tools.
The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle both use the boltgun as a basic weapon. Orks use something very similar to a boltgun as a basic weapon (though as with all Ork tech, it's hardly standard).

Jay-Man McDougal: The Cain books mention air defense a few times (hydras taking out spore pods for example, and fighter-based air defense as well).

Havent Read those yet unfortunately. All ive read are SM novels and a few Inquisition novels, and truth be told im sick of them LOL. Especially that Uriel Ventress.
wait does Cain have a personal driver that smells really bad and is a sort of psyker?


No Hit! No Wound! No Save! Man these Eldar have crap for one of the oldest races in the Galaxy.
running away fast isnt near as good as making a big hole. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I don't read SM novels, they tend to be on the lower end of quality... and Cain's personal assistant is Jurgen, as for the latter question, that would be a spoiler:
Spoiler:
He's a Blank.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then of course there's Deff Skwadron. Oh man that was made of win.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/07/26 00:25:41


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Ohio, Former the Yukon

Melissia wrote:I don't read SM novels, they tend to be on the lower end of quality... and Cain's personal assistant is Jurgen, as for the latter question, that would be a spoiler:
Spoiler:
He's a Blank.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then of course there's Deff Skwadron. Oh man that was made of win.


Jurgen!!! Yes. I have read a Cain novel. Its been a couple years, but i remember Jurgen.


No Hit! No Wound! No Save! Man these Eldar have crap for one of the oldest races in the Galaxy.
running away fast isnt near as good as making a big hole. 
   
 
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