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Some other misconceptions to address are the appellation of "caseless", and "recoilless" to Bolter weapons. Firstly, consider "stainless steel". Stainless steel will rust and stain, it just won't rust and stain as badly as other kinds of steel.

Similarly "caseless" doesn't mean entirely without a case, it just means that the Bolter shell has a ridiculously small 'starter' case compared to a rifle or machine-gun round. The art bears this out; bolters have a shotgun-style of casing. As mentioned this is because Bolter rounds contain their own propellant and only need a case of propellant so they can clear the barrel.

The same goes for "recoilless". That doesn't mean that it doesn't have recoil, it just means that the recoil for firing what is essentially a .75 calibre shotgun solid shotgun shell is mitigated so that they can be fired accurately in semi-automatic (three-round) bursts by the person carrying them, rather than requiring a bipod or something else to absorb the recoil of an equivalent rifle (imagine firing a Barrett from the hip!). It's worth adding that each 'shot' in 40k can be equivalent to a burst of fire or a single round and that the to hit numbers are highly abstracted, and only relationally representative (meaning Imperial Guardsmen are better shots than Orks, and Space Marines are better shots than Imperial Guardsmen, etc).

wizard12 wrote:

We know that bolters contain some sort of metal, and that the imperium uses alot of metal, through I'm not sure everything in it is metal, that would probably be necrons. Do you, by chance, mean mental every time you said metal?

No. I meant metal.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:(Where)TF did this rumor about the .50 cal being able to kill you without hitting you come from? It sounds like something you would hear from those gun nuts that wear camo everywhere they go, get drunk before noon and talk about how great military life would have been and how the only reason he isn't in the Army is because they wouldn't take them for being "too crazy".

I think that's a given.

Nurglitch wrote:Some other misconceptions to address are the appellation of "caseless", and "recoilless" to Bolter weapons. Firstly, consider "stainless steel". Stainless steel will rust and stain, it just won't rust and stain as badly as other kinds of steel.

Similarly "caseless" doesn't mean entirely without a case, it just means that the Bolter shell has a ridiculously small 'starter' case compared to a rifle or machine-gun round. The art bears this out; bolters have a shotgun-style of casing. As mentioned this is because Bolter rounds contain their own propellant and only need a case of propellant so they can clear the barrel.

The same goes for "recoilless". That doesn't mean that it doesn't have recoil, it just means that the recoil for firing what is essentially a .75 calibre shotgun solid shotgun shell is mitigated so that they can be fired accurately in semi-automatic (three-round) bursts by the person carrying them, rather than requiring a bipod or something else to absorb the recoil of an equivalent rifle (imagine firing a Barrett from the hip!). It's worth adding that each 'shot' in 40k can be equivalent to a burst of fire or a single round and that the to hit numbers are highly abstracted, and only relationally representative (meaning Imperial Guardsmen are better shots than Orks, and Space Marines are better shots than Imperial Guardsmen, etc).

The case contains the so-called 'kicker' charge. It makes sense. One of the big problems with gyrojet projectiles is low muzzle velocity - hence a small explosive charge is added to get the bolt going. This produces some recoil, but not much. As a technicality, the bolt itself is both caseless and recoilless - the kicker has a case and recoil but it's not part of the bolt.

That's what the pedants of the Mechanicus would claim, at any rate...

Wizard: azazel Meant Metal with everything he said; not Metal as in elemental classification, Metal as in Heavy Metal music mentality.

Nurglitch: caseless ammunition means just that; without a Case. A shotgun shell is no where near Caseless. As far as the Bolter goes we have 2 things:
1) we are told the ammunition is caseless
2) We are shown in art and some models that the weapon ejects shells when firing

This leads us to a paradox; one that is easily solved with a two word explanation: Artistic License. it is far more dramatic, and cinematic, to draw a picture of a marine firing his weapon and having spent casings fly out of the chamber. And as far as modeling; A strip mag would not look right without the extractor ring in the back of the case, you would just have the bullet in the front of the strip, and a cube or cylinder in the back, which most people would not know what it is.

As to the Bolter being "recoilless" there is no obvious design features in either the rt nor the models that would indicate this, and the fact that relatively unarmored personel can fire a bolter or bolt pistol(see a Commissar) without any ill-effects from venting gasses means that this is achieved through some purely fantastical mechanism. What makes modern "recoilless rifles" not truly recoiless is generally a form of malfunction. A brand new Fresh and Clean recoiless rifle will not have any noticeable recoil when fired(barring any unforeseen mechanical problems with the Round or the weapon itself), well actually it will have a double action recoil out of both sides of the gun, which is designed to have an equal and opposite reaction of force, granting a net, felt, recoil of effectively 0.

Nurglitch wrote:Similarly "caseless" doesn't mean entirely without a case, it just means that the Bolter shell has a ridiculously small 'starter' case compared to a rifle or machine-gun round. The art bears this out; bolters have a shotgun-style of casing. As mentioned this is because Bolter rounds contain their own propellant and only need a case of propellant so they can clear the barrel.

This is correct. Bolter rounds are referred to as bolter shells in Dark Heresy. And the casings are referred to as (Bolter) Shell Casings (spent bolter shells are considered a good luck charm by commoners, by the way). Where, exactly, are we told that bolter shells are caseless again?

I've not read a single fluff piece saying that...

I would like to know where the "Caseless" myth came from too.

is it possable that during the dark days of Rogue Trader, somewhere in the dark inky depths, that it was mentioned passingly that bolts were caseless?

all of the Artwork shows casings coming out AND the Models have case ejectors. Marine codex has shell casings coming out of the marines bolter.

current artwork and the fact that Bolter Casings are used as good luck charms and Marksmen honors is definitive that they have casings.






More on topic:

Bolters are clearly supierior to .50 cals.

Bolters are effectivly Semi-automatic .75 cal grenade launchers.

Heavy Stubbers are clearly .50 cals. they look almost Identical to many WW2 tank mounted .50 cals.



it is also not just the Caliber that makes the round mor effective. the Charge and chaping has alot to do with it too. Bolter rounds INCREASE in velocity and killing power as they go down range giving them more killing power(even if they didn't explode) and a longer range, normal solid rounds lose velocity as they travel.

Id also like to add that the Mythbusters (take their knowledge however you like) tested the missing bullet = death awhile ago. They had empty glases about and inch or 2 away from the path of a .50cal rifle round, and the only reason they broke was because the round hit the wooden frame they built to hold the glass, and the violent jarring from that blew up the glass. That whole you can miss but still kill is just hype for big guns.


Thats all I can add as the answer I have, have been stated a lot already. But I do agree on the lasgun not being a pile of junk. They would be incredibly devastating to a modern military person. But again, they are based WAY in the future and are used against some pretty awesome aliens (ORKS SUCKAS!) So try and remember to put that into perspective

Kommissar Kel wrote:Wizard: azazel Meant Metal with everything he said; not Metal as in elemental classification, Metal as in Heavy Metal music mentality.

Argh.. THIS is what I get for being a classical musician (to the degree that a 14 year old can)

I'm sorry, its just I've never heard the term before.

RedGuardian73 wrote:The Heavy Stubber is not a .50 Cal, do not refer to it as such. It ,maybe, is a .30 cal.
A REAL LIFE .50 can kill someone even if it doesnt hit them because it has so much force that it creates a concussive wave behind it (enough to kill a person), also a .50 cal can pierce through an inch of steel like nothing (kinda) also the range is far greater (4 miles)

Sorry, but no. You're wrong. Where's your evidence? I'm sorry you don't understand the weapons of 40k as much as the others in this thread, and I understand that you might well be one of those guys who thinks the modern military could kick 40k's ass, but no. Really.

Classical eh? Check out Meshuggah then. They actually use some of their material for musical theory at the Juliards

As much as I love .50 cals, have you seen the US marines use their fully automatic 40mm grenade launcher? Ouch!

A bolter is about as close to a rifle version of that as you can get.

Fluff wise, they sacrifice the sold state reliablity of the lasgun to grant massive destructive power. There is also some indication that the bolts can be guided.

Now the real question is why would you use a needle rifle when you can fire the equivalent of a autocannon round?

Durandal wrote:As much as I love .50 cals, have you seen the US marines use their fully automatic 40mm grenade launcher? Ouch!

A bolter is about as close to a rifle version of that as you can get.

Fluff wise, they sacrifice the sold state reliablity of the lasgun to grant massive destructive power. There is also some indication that the bolts can be guided.

Now the real question is why would you use a needle rifle when you can fire the equivalent of a autocannon round?

My oldest brother was trained on that during his special weapons training. He said it was just short of friggin godly

Durandal wrote:

There is also some indication that the bolts can be guided.

I know mine can.

The Sisters of Battle are aided by Divine Guidance which helps their shots find the weak point in your armour. They also employ blessed ammo which finds the gaps in whatever you're cowering behind.

Azezel wrote:

Durandal wrote:

There is also some indication that the bolts can be guided.

I know mine can.

The Sisters of Battle are aided by Divine Guidance which helps their shots find the weak point in your armour. They also employ blessed ammo which finds the gaps in whatever you're cowering behind.

I think he meant with tech not sure how though, but i remember reading in one of the Soul Drinker books that the inquisitor chasing them has bolter rounds/shells/bullets/whatever they fire, that were made especially my the mechanicus for him as he helped them with something or other which had micro circuitry in that guided the shell towards it's target. How the shell knows it's target and how it's guided i don't know but that's what it said. It's probably just bad fluff but in my opinion it was a suitably inquisitory thing to have.

Because nuthin says "hello" as well as a friggin warhead embedded in your head from a pistol with a barrel as big it's shooter's fist. Bolt goes in head, head explodes... seens pretty cool to me.

KingCracker wrote:Id also like to add that the Mythbusters (take their knowledge however you like) tested the missing bullet = death awhile ago. They had empty glases about and inch or 2 away from the path of a .50cal rifle round, and the only reason they broke was because the round hit the wooden frame they built to hold the glass, and the violent jarring from that blew up the glass. That whole you can miss but still kill is just hype for big guns.


Thats all I can add as the answer I have, have been stated a lot already. But I do agree on the lasgun not being a pile of junk. They would be incredibly devastating to a modern military person. But again, they are based WAY in the future and are used against some pretty awesome aliens (ORKS SUCKAS!) So try and remember to put that into perspective

Thank you lol I was about to bring up the mythbusters in this one about the .50cal missing and still killing the target. I'm not going to make this a huge story but I know first hand that it won't kill anything if it doesn't hit the target. Let's just say mr rabbit escaped my mrs M2.

Because...

This


And this


Is coool.

ph34r wrote:

RedGuardian73 wrote:The Heavy Stubber is not a .50 Cal, do not refer to it as such. It ,maybe, is a .30 cal.
A REAL LIFE .50 can kill someone even if it doesnt hit them because it has so much force that it creates a concussive wave behind it (enough to kill a person), also a .50 cal can pierce through an inch of steel like nothing (kinda) also the range is far greater (4 miles)

Sorry, but no. You're wrong. Where's your evidence? I'm sorry you don't understand the weapons of 40k as much as the others in this thread, and I understand that you might well be one of those guys who thinks the modern military could kick 40k's ass, but no. Really.

There is no way that the heavy stubber is a .50 cal, where is your proof that it is? Just because it looks like one doesn't mean it is. Stat wise it is more likely a smaller caliber machine gun round.
Also I am not one of those people that thinks that modern day armies could kill 40K armies, to even think such is silly. I am a person that likes to try to fit the fluff, physics, real life, and the game mechanics together to be "realistic"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaman wrote:Because...

This


And this


Is coool.

As cool as that is a .50 cal could do it too.

Think though, If I bought games workshop today and insisted that marines now had 50 cals in the most hideous and unnecessary retcon of all time it would be pandemonium..

Then all these real world weapon "experts" (Most likely hard core FPS players) would be like a fifty cal couldn't do such and such or they have misrepresented the effects of the 50 cal here and here etc.

You can't misrepresent a bolter in the same way because it doesn't exist.

RedGuardian73 wrote:There is no way that the heavy stubber is a .50 cal, where is your proof that it is? Just because it looks like one doesn't mean it is. Stat wise it is more likely a smaller caliber machine gun round.

And you have any proof of YOUR position? No, you do not. You are merely guesstimating based off of the stats. Which are imprecise and not even accurate to the fluff anyway...

Black Library is inconsistent about this subject as well. At least one author insisted a .30 cal was an autocannon for instance (in our nomenclature one can indeed have a thirty cal autocannon-- but is that really what an autocannon is in 40k?). We don't actually KNOW what it is representative of because, let's face it, the people at GW know just enough about what they're talking about to get all the wrong ideas.

purplefood wrote:

Azezel wrote:

Durandal wrote:

There is also some indication that the bolts can be guided.

I know mine can.

The Sisters of Battle are aided by Divine Guidance which helps their shots find the weak point in your armour. They also employ blessed ammo which finds the gaps in whatever you're cowering behind.

I think he meant with tech not sure how though, but i remember reading in one of the Soul Drinker books that the inquisitor chasing them has bolter rounds/shells/bullets/whatever they fire, that were made especially my the mechanicus for him as he helped them with something or other which had micro circuitry in that guided the shell towards it's target. How the shell knows it's target and how it's guided i don't know but that's what it said. It's probably just bad fluff but in my opinion it was a suitably inquisitory thing to have.

I'm pretty sure the round he is using is a turbo penetrator round. And as an aside, a round like it was in the first book as well, though those were daemonically possessed.

Azezel wrote:In 40K, everything is Metal.

Blacker than the blackest black, times infinity!

RedGuardian73 wrote:

There is no way that the heavy stubber is a .50 cal, where is your proof that it is? Just because it looks like one doesn't mean it is. Stat wise it is more likely a smaller caliber machine gun round.
Also I am not one of those people that thinks that modern day armies could kill 40K armies, to even think such is silly. I am a person that likes to try to fit the fluff, physics, real life, and the game mechanics together to be "realistic"


As cool as that is a .50 cal could do it too.

Our Proof Comes from the 2nd (or 4th) edition Wargear Book(I don't remember which) that expressly states "To all intents, a heavy stubber is similar to a twentieth century heavy machine gun in appearance and effect, much like a M2HB .50 calibre machine gun used by the U.S. army and various other armed forces"

Also, Stat-wise is not a good indication of Actual performance. A 3-5 round Burst from most assault Rifles grants you 1 "shot" out to maximum range with an Aimed shot, and 2 "shots" when fired from the hip/aimed at 12" or less. Any High rate of fire Machine guns will grant you 3 "shots" with only the most extreme rates of fire(such as those by Gatling guns) granting any more "shots" than that.

Strength of weapons is also sometimes dependant on either number of rounds sent down field, or shear Volume of Fire(such as with the various forms of flamer) Look at the Various foms of Flamer(Hand, Std, Heavy, and even flamestorm) All fire the same burning fuel(promethium) and have varying degrees of Strength/ AP, but the same basic range; this is because all forms fire a Stream of Burning fuel at about the same pressure, but varying amounts of it, generally doubling the amount of fuel at each size level. We are restricted to a scale of 1-10, and as such there are actually some degrees between these values that is not represented in the rules of the game. A guardsman's strength(with a knife/bayonet) is probably on the Low end of 3; whereas a Lasgun is on the High end, but rounded down for simplicity. A guardsman's Accuracy with a Lasgun borders on the extreme with a 50% likely-hood that the guardsman will hit, then when he hits another human target, there is another 50% probability that he will cause a debilitating wound; all of this under Battlefield stress means that IG troopers are far better drilled, and psychologically conditioned than any of our most elite troops(excepting maybe the spetsnaz)

Think of it like this: A Bolter is essentially a high velocity grenade launcher with rapid fire capabilities. In addition, it has the ability to penetrate armour.

Were they to be represented in the game as they were in the fluff (and by fluff, I mean statistics, because the stories make them seem like peashooters in some instances... Really, a single bolter round to the head would be all it would take to kill scourges like Abaddon and the like. Really, there'd be no reason for Space Marines to fight in close combat when a single bolter can clear whole rooms, let alone a squads' worth), they'd be utterly broken.

Fafnir wrote:Think of it like this: A Bolter is essentially a high velocity grenade launcher with rapid fire capabilities. In addition, it has the ability to penetrate armour.

I think he's [correctly] given up on the whole ".50 cal beats bolter" argument and is now trying to dispute why a heavy stubber isn't a .50 cal...

ok.

fact: bolters are .75 calliber Automatic mini-misile launchers, each "bolt" contains a rocket motor and a "mass-reactive" warhead coated in some form of extreemly hard AP casing.

- .75 size is in the fluff as is the rocket propulsion and rounds are specificly described as mass-reactive which is a bit better than HE rounds (small near nuclear reaction).

Also for those who disagree about the heavy stubber, let me say that an H&K MP5 (widely used submachinegun) fires a 9mm bullet or roughly .36 calliber, a ww2 rifle round was between .27 and .308, most modern rifles are about .308. all of these rounds can be stoped by commercialy available body armour, .30 M2 ammo is able to be stopped by normal army issue vests. .50 machineguns fire a tungsten tiped steel jacket round which penetrates most modern body armour, but not all, formed HDplates, Tungsten/titanium aloy plates and reactive fiber units are all effective.
So in the far future when todays most modern technology is obsolite, i think AP6 may be being generous. oh and it actualy says its very simmilar to a .50 cal in one of the old editions.

and just a side note on bolters, 2 wepons that might give you an idea of the destructive potential (if you magnify by about x4) are the AA12 automatic shotgun and specificaly its special wall piercing explosive rounds, and also there is a new sub-machine gun which fires .45 rounds and has a nifty recoil damper system, cant remember the name, but its named after a kind of Indonesian knife IIRC.

hope this helped and I havent gone overboard.

Just my two cents on the original "Why Bolters" question. I read a line of reasoning awhile ago I really liked.

Certainly the Emperor had lots of options when he was designing the Space Marines, so why did he choose a bolter? He likely could have re-created any weapon from the Dark Age of Technology. So why the bolter?

The SM were designed for the great crusade. Their primary role is to subjugate human populations.

So a big reason the bolter was chosen instead of, say, energy weapons, (and perhaps even why he made SM in the first place) may have been for psychological impact. Against human populations las-guns are frightfully effective. Perhaps too effective, as they seem to minimize collateral damage and gore. Even stubbers aren't too horrifying.

But a BOLTER, well...

Traditional solder might have been technically more efficient in any given combat situations. For the cost of a single marine in power armor you could easily have a few hundred guardsmen. So why?

Why the bright colors and iconography? The imagery? The angels of death instead of the knife in the night and the thunder of artillery? And why chainswords, melee weapons?

The Space Marines are a psychological weapon meant to cow human populations. Maximal visability, gore, and impact in exchange for minimizing resistance.

When a Space Marine attacks a fortified position, people explode, horribly. Drop pods rain down from the sky and horrible super-human demi-gods pour out wearing bright colors, visible to all. The defenders armor does nothing, their fortification ripped through like paper, and their comrades body parts explode in clouds of gore. Chanswords rip into defenders causing horrible wounds and further spreading the gore. It has been often noted that SM are poor solders on an open field, and that is true, but that is not their purpose. Their purpose is to rain down into human cities and totally dominate human populations in urban combat.

The armor, the bolters and chainswords, the drop pods and flame throwers are all calculated to maximize the psychological impact and, in the end, minimize bloodshed. During the great crusade most early engagements would have been so horrific and one sided that worlds would quickly capitulate. Space Marines could drop into the heart the the opposing government, hopefully doing so much damage so quickly as to terrify opposing leaders into quick submission, leaving most of the rest of the planet intact.

That and Bolters and Chainswords are just so much cooler.

I actualy think though that for a standard man portable weapon the bolter is about as good as u'd get. Laser weaponry requires alot of energy to produce destructive power (they are increadably inefficient today), mind you las weaponry in the fluff seems to be roughly as effective as solid weaponry, it even says in certainparts of the fluff that IG regiments from certain worlds are isued with autoguns which are roughly equivalent.

oh and in a novel i recently read, it seems that some auto-pistols can be as good as hell-pistols since the stormtroopers had them as standard (novel is called Redemption Corps btw)

Las weapons are quite deadly. The thing is, everything in 40k is quite deadly.

Melissia wrote:Las weapons are quite deadly. The thing is, everything in 40k is quite deadly.

You clearly haven't played against Necrons.

I'm not sure if/what mythbutsters tested but a m82a1/2 I believe is what is referred to when talking about "a 50 killing someone without hitting them" of the three major anti-material rifles made by barrett. the a1 has amuzzle velocity of approx 853 m/sec or 2800 ft/sec the a2 is approx 900m/sec or 3000 ft/sec. according to my math a .50 bmg rd is traveling approx 3 times the speed a sound (my math is 3000 ft/sec times 60 times 60 divided by 5280) according to my math that puts the round traveling downrange at about 2045.45454545 mph. Obv the velocity decreases over time, however I would assume at uncomfortably close ranges, fromm 100-500 feet, and even further, If that bullet did ot hit you its speed and displacement if it were within at least 12 inches of you would do some damage. at the very least you'd have a bad rest of the day. but I think to say that no damage would be inflicted. I also did not see the mthbusters. however it sounds like hey tested it with a glass of some sort? this dode not take into account the human organs or blood that would be disrupted with the vibrations of a projectile travling almost 3 times the speed of sound passing within 1-3 feet of you.


back on topic. a fifty cal. machine gun is NOT equivalent of a .bolter. bolters fire A SMALL ROCKET PROPELED, SUB-NUCLEAR round (or whatever your dramatic interpertation is of mass-reaction is). that is greater than a hollowpoint or fmj rd from a 50 cal, any day. I bet anyone would rather be shot at with a fifty than have a rocket propelled grenade shot at them. Space marines are shock troops, they aren't meant o be long range troopers the are close support and city fighters. while I agree with the theory that the bolter was probably originally designed with the intent to subjugate human societies. I don't believe that was the main purpose of their design. The emporer and the some/most of the primarchs took great care to avoid human on human violence, if a world needed to be brought into compliance then so be it, however this was not their main purpose. These weapons were designed to take down any variety and size of foe. At the time the universe was (and mostlikely still is) filled with vicious aliens and other xenos. The imperium wiped out a lot of xenos civilizations, extict, gone. We needed a weapon that could deal wit any thing thrown our way, that weapon is the holy bolter!

sorry for the length.