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ok so for people to note, i have posted the spray i used to "prime" my models if you will aka 1st layer of paint on plastic or metal and also one of my quite bad models just to show the result of the spray


^^Model(Bloodthirster from CSM)


^^Spray i used (Except its white not grey(White can ran out and had this lying around))

not sure what i hope to achieve by posting this but we shall see

Note: The spray is from my local Poundland £1 a can = Awesome!

SmackCakes wrote:

I haven't had any problems with paint rubbing off, sounds like a myth. People have been using skull white to undercoat for as long as I've been painting (which is quite long) there is nothing wrong with it.

That's because the single coat of skull white is bonding to itself (something like gesso), but it's not actually sticking to the model inside very well at all. This works on smaller objects like infantry models with lots of detail and three dimensional surface because of the size of the model -- the paint is like a water ballon shrunk over the surface of the model. As long as the entire "ballon" is intact, it will act like a single object -- the acrylic melts together like brush-on latex. OTH, the layer is vulnerable at the sharper corners and once it gets nicked, the whole thing will start to flake. If you treat your models with care, this will probably never happen. It also depends on whether the model is metal or plastic, the flex of the plastic helps a little.

It works on small objects with complex surfaces -- it won't work on larger objects with smooth planes (vehicles).

SpacePanzee wrote:

aerethan wrote:I agree that the Color Place sprays don't hold up well to handling, so often wear off if you are holding models while painting them. I use a pill bottle with coins in it as a model holder and use blue tac to keep the models base stuck to it to paint most things. Otherwise hold them by their base.

That's a bad sign -- if you can rub the primer off with your fingers, it may not be sticking to the model well enough. Of course, most people use a very, very thin primer coat, so that could be it too. If the primer is just rubbing off corners and ridges, it's probably on there good. If its coming off everywhere, it's not sticking and you are going to end up in a situation where the paint is actually trying to hold the primer in place instead of the primer adhering to the model.

Remember -- primer and paint are NOT the same thing.

The Color Place comes off just on ridges and raised surfaces when being handled. Primers do the same thing if handled alot.

SmackCakes wrote:
Now what you have stated is a genuine and well known fallacy, known as an 'appeal to tradition', I believe you also threw out an appeal to popularity earlier, and a bunch of other nonsense which bore absolutely no relevance to the matter at hand... I'm sorry but just because lots of people do something, or do it in a completely unrelated field, or have done it for a long time, does not mean there is any significant substance or truth to it.

Well, lets see -- can you find even one example of a published book written by a professional painter (model, automotive, art) that doesn't recommend using primer? I'm thinking you won't find even one, and if you do find one, that one will be representative of a tiny minority. So we have a difference of opinion -- between the majority of the painting profession (folks who paint stuff in order to feed their families and pay the rent) vs. some guy on the internet. Hmm . . . .

As to your "scientific" experiment using a single, non-randomly selected sample? no comment.

Your argument seems a little like a friend of mine who insists that he doesn't need to wear his helmet because he's been riding for years and he's not dead yet. This is not a false analogy -- the weight of evidence supporting the idea of wearing a helmet is similar to the weight of evidence supporting the idea that using primer is an excellent idea.

Unless of course, you are one of those people who think that it is all a vast conspiracy concocted by the petrochemical industry to sell miniature hobbyists a product (primer) they don't need.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

johnscott10 wrote:ok so even if i was to start priming my models, where in the Uk would i get it?? none of my parents have any clue so i highly doubt my brother (who works in Halfords who deal with a load of paint, my dad works Homebase who funnily enough deals with alot of paint)

so yea would be nice to grab a can of the stuff to see if theres much difference between black spray and black primer

Maybe an auto parts store -- I'm unfamiliar with the UK, so I'm not going to be a lot of help. Also, a modeling hobby shop that caters to people who use airbrushes will have it.

This thread has devolved into an argument of idiotic proportions.

If you have any respect for the models that you spend your money on, prime before you paint. It pains me to see people spend money on this rather pricey hobby only to degrade their models with crap paint jobs.

I'd nominate this thread be locked at this point, as nothing else productive will likely come from it.

I second that nomination. Lock it up.

Before it does go the way of a Space Dwarf
When using a primer spray, best thing is to follow the instructions on the can.

Before use warm up the can in a bath of warm water, dry off and give another good shack.

Start spraying BEFORE hitting the model and stop AFTER the pass has been made. Thin coats and keep the hand moving.
That way the primer doesn't build up in places and clog up details.

John looks like the primer is okay from here.
Maybe you just need to keep the paint a bit thinner and use some washes.
hth

thanks for the tips, there is a wash on the red parts, guess it isnt dark enough in the pic

My bad

probably washed out *ahem* by the flash.

filbert wrote:OK so all the professional miniature painters are wrong then? They all invest time, effort and money in priming their models when according to your 'scientific study', it isn't needed? And these same professional painters have been doing this for years? What fools they have been!

Here we go again with more fallacies... You have managed 'appeal to authority', 'generalisation', 'straw man argument' and possibly 'ad hominem'. What you haven't managed is any actual evidence that what you are asserting is true.

This is all symptomatic of an argument that doesn't stand up.

You claim that not only do ALL these mysterious 'professional miniature painters' (who must be obeyed) use primer. But you also seem to think that makes anything you say about primer true... which it doesn't. I could argue that crash helmets improve your driving, and since all professional racing drivers use them that must be true... but it isn't, probably the opposite.

You claim that primer prevents chips... it doesn't, varnish prevents chips. You also claim that paint won't adhere without primer, this might be true for some paint, but most citadel paints will adhere quite impressively to metal and plastic. A number of people in this topic who have tried painting without primer have confirmed this.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Actually, I wouldn't say it's absolutely nessesary...

fraggrenade wrote:I don't prime my models, because (for me) it does't make a difference ... Here are two metal models, one has been primed the other hasn't, which one has been primed?

Great post, both models look superb and I can't tell which one wasn't primed... But how did you get paint to stick to metal without primer? OMG! Blasphemy!!!

Primer wont protect the paint (if you want to do that get some clear flat paint).

deejaybainbridge wrote: I've never had an issue of paint rubbing off, and i've got a load of old models that were painted 5 yers ago, moved house with me twice, sat on the shelf lived in box's and handeled quite a lot and the paint is still fresh

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:I have a whole ork army, un-primered, with which I play with regularly in a sand box-game table, with no problems ... My paint sticks and stays just fine w/o primer.

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:obviously, but the point is that the unprimed models are holding up just as well as the primed. They all get jostled around, dropped on the floor equally and they all still have paint on them.

hpred wrote:Personally the only models that I have ever primed with a spray are my Land Raiders and my Drop Pod. All of my troops I have hand base coated using just the standard bottle of Chaos Black. And I've never had a problem with getting the GW paints to stick to them be they plastic or pewter.

Primer categorically does not make miniatures any less vulnerable to paint chipping. That is what varnish is for. The people who are claiming primer does this are the ones who are really spreading misinformation. All it does is make paint adhere better (mainly to metal) while the paint is wet.

Howard A Treesong wrote:There's a reason primers are so widely used in the hobby. What, do you think it's all just some huge con on the part of paint manufacturers, and that all the hobbyists have been taken in for decades? That your noob advice somehow trumps the wealth of wider experience?

There is a reason indeed, and I have already stated it above. I'm not giving advice, I'm just stating facts. I also resent you calling me a noob. It is not my fault your argument lacks substance, personally attacking me will not change the facts though. I believe I can paint at least as well as you can, maybe better... I CHALLENGE YOU!

your test proves absolutely nothing. Primers prepare the surface and help paint adhere. It might not come off straight away with a scrape of a nail, but a little handing and it will be coming off the raised edges or peel/flake of later.

Nonsense, I have minis I painted over 10 years ago and the paint is not coming off. A whole bunch of other people in this topic have said the same thing. Primed minis are no less vulnerable to chipping than unprimed, anyone who says they are is misinformed. I agree my test wasn't particularity scientific, but people are claiming my paint would rub and scratch off easily. So I rubbed and scratched it... and nothing happened, so go fish.

Tarot wrote:Also worth noting: spray paint IS NOT primer. GW's Undercoat sprays ARE NOT primer. They are spray paint. All they are is paint in an aerosolized suspension for easier application.

Indeed GW spray cans just say Skull White and Chaos Black on the can. If it should turn out that the spray is exactly the same formula as in the pot then there sure are a lot of people in this topic talking out their

Wait don't lots of GW 'pro painters' use GW spray? HAHA It's going to be absolutely hilarious if it turns out that half the people in this topic who are claiming 'only noobs don't use primer' are in fact themselves not using primer... and neither is GW.

And just when I thought everyone had let this one go...

aerethan wrote:And just when I thought everyone had let this one go...

So did i...

Hey give me break, I had to go out yesterday

Must... have... last... word!!!

SmackCakes wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:There's a reason primers are so widely used in the hobby. What, do you think it's all just some huge con on the part of paint manufacturers, and that all the hobbyists have been taken in for decades? That your noob advice somehow trumps the wealth of wider experience?

There is a reason indeed, and I have already stated it above. I'm not giving advice, I'm just stating facts. I also resent you calling me a noob. It is not my fault your argument lacks substance, personally attacking me will not change the facts though. I believe I can paint at least as well as you can, maybe better... I CHALLENGE YOU!

You can view some stuff in my gallery, the ghost I painted for my first Dakka competition.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/9383-.html

Wait don't lots of GW 'pro painters' use GW spray? HAHA It's going to be absolutely hilarious if it turns out that half the people in this topic who are claiming 'only noobs don't use primer' are in fact themselves not using primer... and neither is GW.

I imagine most pro-painters don't use GW spray because there are better quality and cheaper alternatives out there, same reason as they don't use GW knives and other modelling tools.

well i have once again been proved wrong... the "spray" i showed in the pic post (pics removed now) was indeed a primer XD

Howard A Treesong wrote:You can view some stuff in my gallery, the ghost I painted for my first Dakka competition.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/9383-.html

I already looked at your stuff before, I like the ghost very much, it is particularly beautiful and well painted.

I imagine most pro-painters don't use GW spray because there are better quality and cheaper alternatives out there, same reason as they don't use GW knives and other modelling tools.

Yeah... I had an inkling that might be the case too actually.

But at the same time it would seem somewhat hypocritical if painters employed by games workshop didn't at least claim to use GW products.

Here is what I picked up from some painting articles on the GW site.

Games Workshop wrote:First on the painting table were the Space Marines, which Chris carefully cleaned up with a Hobby Knife and files before undercoating them with Chaos Black spray.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=600003&pIndex=1&aId=9300028&start=2

I looked around to see if there was one for metal models and sure enough I found an SoB article, The first stage reads as follows...

Games Workshop wrote:Once you prime your models with Chaos Black Spray Paint, painting can begin.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat210004&categoryId=600003§ion=&aId=2900013

Even though they use the word 'prime' they are definitely talking about Chaos Black. If Chaos Black and Skull white are not primers then that means that even GW are not priming their models. They are just 'undercoating' which we all seem to agree is not the same thing.

Call me cynical but I don't think they use GW paints all the time, same with other hobby tools.

And they paint GW models using GW materials, at least that's what GW says!

Seriously though, they probably use VMC and colorplace.

PLEASE LOCK THIS NONSENSE ALREADY.

Second.

This thread's evolved into nothing more but constant arguing and nonsense.

The worst part is, after you DON'T spend 10 bucks on primer, you'll spend 80 dollars on paint stripper...

You can get a big bucket of simple green for next to nothing.

Munch Munch! wrote:You can get a big bucket of simple green for next to nothing.

And a can of primer for less.

Brother SRM wrote:

Munch Munch! wrote:You can get a big bucket of simple green for next to nothing.

And a can of primer for less.

lol, too true!

Nonsense, I have minis I painted over 10 years ago and the paint is not coming off. A whole bunch of other people in this topic have said the same thing. Primed minis are no less vulnerable to chipping than unprimed, anyone who says they are is misinformed. I agree my test wasn't particularity scientific, but people are claiming my paint would rub and scratch off easily. So I rubbed and scratched it... and nothing happened, so go fish.

Well, I'm not claiming that primer does prevent chipping, but this is a fallacy itself. Because your miniatures or some other peoples minis didn't chip doesn't make "primed minis are no less vulnerable to to chipping than unprimed" universally true. There are also people here who claimed the opposite.

I'm not saying that primed models are less likely to chip, but seeing you're a bit anal about fallacies, I felt the need to point that out. Sorry for being a bit nitpicky.

You claim that primer prevents chips... it doesn't, varnish prevents chips. You also claim that paint won't adhere without primer, this might be true for some paint, but most citadel paints will adhere quite impressively to metal and plastic. A number of people in this topic who have tried painting without primer have confirmed this.

Emphasis mine. Same fallacy as above: just because some people confirmed it doesn't make it universally true.

Let me also add that in painting, a primer can be any paint/substance you put into the surface so that paint will not be absorbed/will stick to the surface. So technically, a layer of normal paint on a model can be counted as a "primer", although it wasn't made for that job really (but you could make do with what you have, as always).

I highly suggest Krylon. Rustoleum seems to be way to thick for me know matter how far I prime it from and plus Krylon has those nifty adjustable angle spray and quick dry. If you don't prime, I suggest you do. It doesn't have to be perfect, if you miss a spot under the chin, no one is going to see it anyways if the prime didn't ever hit it. Krylon is maybe 3 bucks a can and is great quality.

Mewiththeface wrote:I highly suggest Krylon. Rustoleum seems to be way to thick for me know matter how far I prime it from and plus Krylon has those nifty adjustable angle spray and quick dry. If you don't prime, I suggest you do. It doesn't have to be perfect, if you miss a spot under the chin, no one is going to see it anyways if the prime didn't ever hit it. Krylon is maybe 3 bucks a can and is great quality.

Emptyquote this into oblivion. Krylon is the bee's knees.

To the OP, read the thread, make a decision, and see what happens.

Personally I prime everything with cheap car primer in mid grey.