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I always prime, if only because it gives a much better surface to paint onto.

I hear a lot about Krylon, anyone know if they're available in the UK?

SmackCakes wrote:It's not water... It's paint.

I haven't had any problems with paint rubbing off, sounds like a myth. People have been using skull white to undercoat for as long as I've been painting (which is quite long) there is nothing wrong with it.

As for it being a fallacy (please don't misuse the word "myth" ) ironically the science suggests otherwise
why do you think the aviation industry use primers?
If they didn't need to they wouldn't to save weight.

Yes of course it's paint and the water evapourates leaving the binder to stick the pigment to the surface.
However the dilution weakens the binding medium.

Like I said before, the cost and effort to prime is minimal. The small amount of extra input is much outweighed by the benefits
The majority of experienced modellers on Dakka use primer. They do so for practical reasons and not just because they are blindly following some crazy superstition.
What you do with your minis is one thing but giving poor advice to beginners is another.

I have a whole ork army, un-primered, with which I play with regularly in a sand box-game table, with no problems.

My first boys squad was primered and they look like crap compared to everyone else due to the primer taking away so much detail.

My paint sticks and stays just fine w/o primer, I just wash the sprues w/ dish liquid when i first get them. I started using foundations a few months ago and now it is even easier to paint w/o primer.

Okay people
Don't prime
it's a complete waste of time
It really clogs up all the detail

You obviously sprayed too heavily.

obviously, but the point is that the unprimed models are holding up just as well as the primed. They all get jostled around, dropped on the floor equally and they all still have paint on them.

Theoretically you would LOSE more detail by not priming properly as you would need paint that is thicker than primer to properly cover the model without the paint pooling.

The more layers of paint= less detail. So if detail is the question, suck less at priming technique.

Like mentioned before, if primer wasn't a needed tool, it wouldn't exist.

This is like saying you don't use a hammer for nails because you find you can get nails to stick just fine by headbutting them into place.

I find it incredible the amount of ill informed information floating about here.

If you don't want to prime your own models when painting, fine. They're your models and your money to chuck away as you see fit. But for the love of God, don't spread your ignorance to beginners.

As has been mentioned already, priming is just as important a step as any other. Ask any reputable / professional miniature painter and they will offer the same advice; always prime your models.

filbert wrote:I find it incredible the amount of ill informed information floating about here.

If you don't want to prime your own models when painting, fine. They're your models and your money to chuck away as you see fit. But for the love of God, don't spread your ignorance to beginners.

As has been mentioned already, priming is just as important a step as any other. Ask any reputable / professional miniature painter and they will offer the same advice; always prime your models.

your avatar makes me happy on the inside, and I know that your models appreciate the calm and serene manner in which they are painted. You sir, are my new hero.

Have just done a test on some recently inhereted gobbos and orcs.

They have been hand painted in White Skull paint.
The metal orc is a definite
The white came off really easily with my thumbnail.

The plastic gobbo I will concede that the paint stayed put.
However, it has been applied thickly, straight from the jar.

The mold lines are still on and worst still the detail is not crisp due to the paint. The finish is a hard egg shell. Not what I want for thin coats to go on to.

No brainer, they will have to be stripped and primed.

imho Aerethan you have called it absolutely correctly.
A thin coat of primer will allow thinner coats of paint to be applied and adhere well to the surface.
This means it is easier to use washes as there is crisper detail for the paint to run into.

aerethan wrote:

filbert wrote:I find it incredible the amount of ill informed information floating about here.

If you don't want to prime your own models when painting, fine. They're your models and your money to chuck away as you see fit. But for the love of God, don't spread your ignorance to beginners.

As has been mentioned already, priming is just as important a step as any other. Ask any reputable / professional miniature painter and they will offer the same advice; always prime your models.

your avatar makes me happy on the inside, and I know that your models appreciate the calm and serene manner in which they are painted. You sir, are my new hero.

I live to give....

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:I like Rustoleum from my local Home Depot, it's cheap, durable, and gets pretty good coverage.

Going on what other people have said, don't prime when its cold, or humid, or if you live in SoCal like me, don't worry about it.

I think That's what I'm using right now for my tanks (one of the only things I prime ). It seems pretty flat, which Is what I wanted, so I guess I'll just start priming again...

Two schools of thought going on:
1 - Get some figs, get some colors on them, get them on the table and start playing: Primer Optional.
2 - Get some figs, spend time painting each one with lovely colors and detail, to be gamed with and/or to grace one's glass case of miniatures: Primer Necessary.

Any of the figs on a site like coolminiornot.com are primed from top to bottom, I guarantee it.

Ambull wrote:
Any of the figs on a site like coolminiornot.com are primed from top to bottom, I guarantee it.

I think you have missed some of the just awful paintjobs that are posted there.

Any model that got voted 8 or better definitely got primed.

A primed model is deffo better than non-primed imo.

To begin with my painting techniques suck but with the start of a new army i hope to change that

ill admit i do use paint straight from the pot even on primed models although i probly go through a bit more than others as i paint while still on the sprue

i done a test when i started to see if primed was better than non-primed, needless to say i always prime models.

still to decide whether black or white is a better prime tho, always primed white

It's always worth it to prime. Not priming is a terrible insult to your Glorious Model Army.

In terms of primers though, I keep 3 in stock at my home in my SuperSecretSprayCanDrawer:

1) Army Painter Matte Black Primer(fantastic coverage and rarely fritzes out on me).
2) Army Painter Matte White Primer(same reasons as above)
3)Tamiya Fine Surface Gray Primer(fantastic coverage, a good midpoint to work from between White and Black, and it leaves details standing out like whoa. The only downside is it comes in tiny cans for around $4/can and I have to special order it from Squadron Shop as nowhere locally stocks it. Also, it makes the models smell like warm cocoa. I wish I knew why).

aerethan wrote:

Ambull wrote:
Any of the figs on a site like coolminiornot.com are primed from top to bottom, I guarantee it.

I think you have missed some of the just awful paintjobs that are posted there.

Any model that got voted 8 or better definitely got primed.

Hah! Yeah, you are definitely right, I should have pointed that out. But the point is exactly that: top paint-jobs are primed. Priming greatly effects the outcome of the final paint-job. If there are folks new to the hobby reading this, take my word: to start competently painting figures, get a can of something and prime them before you begin, you will save yourself a lot of headache and frustration.

(I remember glopping Testor's enamel all over my first set of figs back in the early 80s. I've since stripped, primed and re-painted many early attempts. If I had spray-primed those suckers first-thing I would have seen a greater jump in my painting skills sooner)

Is it worth it to prime?
I would say yes, as for what primer thats a difficult one.
Back when i did a stint in the boat building trade I used this wondyful stuff, not sure what it was called but the other workers just called it "aluminum primer".
This stuff was used to prime glass reinforced hulls.
I have a 2nd edition Blood Angel Chaplin based with this stuff and in its 15 years of life it has never needed to be striped and repainted.
At the moment the primer i use is basic car primer, sticks to almost any thing and is hard wareing plus at £5 a pop good vaule for your cash as well.

Yes it is worth it to prime. It is not a "theory" but actual fact that priming is an important set in painting (anything really).

The only thing open for debate is what color primer to use and that is pretty much a personal preference with no "wrong" answer. In fact, at 97 cents a can just buy a couple colors and do some test figures. Best way to determine what color is best for you.

Also worth noting: spray paint IS NOT primer. GW's Undercoat sprays ARE NOT primer. They are spray paint. All they are is paint in an aerosolized suspension for easier application. If you apply spray paint to your model instead of primer, your paint will flake off as easily as if you hadn't primed the model at all.

Primer is formulated to actually bond to the surface it is sprayed onto, and to provide a surface for your paint to adhere to. If it isn't primer, you might as well not bother for all the good it will do you.

When you look for primer, make sure the bottle actually says Primer somewhere on it (this includes GW and other hobby products). If it doesn't say Primer on the bottle, it's spray paint (or varnish or something, but it's definitely not primer). Find another bottle.

I use armory primers, I have always had good luck with them and they are less then half the cost of the GW variaty.

As far as color choice, it depends on how the model is going to be painted. If the model is going to be dark, I use black. If I want to to look natural I use gray and if I want it bright or I'm useing light colors I go with white. Mostly though I use white, as I like my models to be very bright. I would say that if you want to prime everything with one can go for white.

Catyrpelius wrote:I use armory primers, I have always had good luck with them and they are less then half the cost of the GW variaty.

As far as color choice, it depends on how the model is going to be painted. If the model is going to be dark, I use black. If I want to to look natural I use gray and if I want it bright or I'm useing light colors I go with white. Mostly though I use white, as I like my models to be very bright. I would say that if you want to prime everything with one can go for white.

I don't like armory primer, no matter what time of day, how much I shake the can or how thin I try to get the paint to go on, it always comes on thick, distorts the detail, has a wierd texture kind of like sand, and smells bad. Not that anything coming out of a spray can smells good but that is near the top.

In my experience Armory primer is rather thick. As far as that sandy texture, you are likely spraying too far away.

Armory primer also covers VERY fast as opposed to other sprays where you may do 2 or more passes to get full coverage. So your spraying has to be more deliberate as it's kind of a one shot thing.

I'd still rather get rustoleum. Where I live I can either buy an Armory can, or I can go to the Home Depot, buy a Rustoleum and a soda. And the Rustoleum is easier to use.

johnscott10 wrote:A primed model is deffo better than non-primed imo.

To begin with my painting techniques suck but with the start of a new army i hope to change that

ill admit i do use paint straight from the pot even on primed models although i probly go through a bit more than others as i paint while still on the sprue

i done a test when i started to see if primed was better than non-primed, needless to say i always prime models.

still to decide whether black or white is a better prime tho, always primed white

and noob of the year award goes to me >.>

until reading a post just below my 1st post i always thought tht the spray from GW was the primer

ill take my leave now....

johnscott10 wrote:A primed model is deffo better than non-primed imo.

To begin with my painting techniques suck but with the start of a new army i hope to change that

ill admit i do use paint straight from the pot even on primed models although i probly go through a bit more than others as i paint while still on the sprue

i done a test when i started to see if primed was better than non-primed, needless to say i always prime models.

still to decide whether black or white is a better prime tho, always primed white

I'd say prime white. It makes the whole thing brighter, if that's what you want. Ultramarines and cadians look bad primed black. They look pretty good white though.

Tarot wrote:Also worth noting: spray paint IS NOT primer. GW's Undercoat sprays ARE NOT primer. They are spray paint. All they are is paint in an aerosolized suspension for easier application. If you apply spray paint to your model instead of primer, your paint will flake off as easily as if you hadn't primed the model at all.

Primer is formulated to actually bond to the surface it is sprayed onto, and to provide a surface for your paint to adhere to. If it isn't primer, you might as well not bother for all the good it will do you.

When you look for primer, make sure the bottle actually says Primer somewhere on it (this includes GW and other hobby products). If it doesn't say Primer on the bottle, it's spray paint (or varnish or something, but it's definitely not primer). Find another bottle.

My lotr models have been primed for almost a year, with just a few bits covered in paint. I've handled all of them saying I'm gonna paint them, but I never do. The only time the spray paint chips off is when I force it too. And the spray paint is definatley different to paint in a pot. Pot paint will rub and flake off easily almost as soon as you handle it.

OoieGoie wrote:
So in the end, it may go on ok and look ok. But over a long period of time you may come into problems with no primer.

What is considered a long period of time?

10 minutes after the paint has dried. After you handle the unprimed models with paint on 'em, the raised details, and other areas where you touch them, will lose paint.

Yeah slapping heavy paint on an unprimed model and saying all unprimed paint jobs are going to look horrible is completely asinine.

I dilute my paints, wash, highlight and all that jazz. I'm not going to win a golden deamon but my minis look better than a lot of people Ive played against.

Whatever though I'll keep painting my way and you people can do whatever you wish

I feel like I'm being painted as devils advocate here for some reason, which is totally not true. And I think a distinction needs to be drawn between priming and undercoating.

I do 'undercoat' my models. Thus they have a surface to stick to and the colours come out bright and sharp. So there is not argument there.

However I do not use a specially formulated primer because I am not a fan of smelly primer or spray. I like to use skull white because I believe I can get a smoother and more complete base coat. and also because I usually don't undercoat the whole mini in just one shade. Black areas for example don't get a white undercoat.

I do not believe there is anything wrong with skull white, it seems to have a much higher pigment count than many colours and it sticks fairly well.

Chibi Bodge-battle wrote:why do you think the aviation industry use primers?
If they didn't need to they wouldn't to save weight.

Aeroplanes travel at 300+ mph through rain and hail and pollution, they have to contend with extremes of temperature from -30 to however hot jet engines get. And they have to be resistant to chemical cleaning etc... and spend a good portion of their life outside.

That is not comparable to a miniature in any way whatsoever. The best thing you can do to protect miniatures is to varnish them.

I am not against priming, but I'm not for it either. I don't use primer myself and if someone new says to me:

"I used white instead of primer, is that bad?"

My HONEST TO GOD answer is... You probably won't notice any difference.

I minis that I painted well over 10 years ago, and varnished and they are as bright and vivid and unchipped as the day I painted them. I've also recently been stripping some old plastic minis that I painted a long time ago without primer, and believe me... The paint is still b**ch get off.

End of the day there are far more important things than primer. Paint retardant for example is something I would consider essential, something every painter should have, but the majority don't even know what it is. Primer is not 'essential' IMO, if you have $10 to spend on primer and you don't already own a pot of acrylic retardent then you have your priorities seriously mixed up.