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Right
so earlier slower aircraft didn't get primed.
Of course I realise there are extremes for modern aircraft but that isn't the point! They use primers on metal to make the paint stick
They put primer on the interiors where those extremes don't exist
they put primer on cars where those extremes don't exist
They use primers for a purpose

For the umpteenth time, what people do with their minis is up to them.
However it is irresponsible to suggest to newbies that it is okay practice to ignore what experienced modellers have been doing for donkeys' years.

Primers ain't expensive and is not a question of either primer or the other stuff.
give it a rest already

For the umpteenth time, what people do with their minis is up to them.
However it is irresponsible to suggest to newbies that it is okay practice to ignore what experienced modellers have been doing for donkeys' years.

Primers ain't expensive and is not a question of either primer or the other stuff.
give it a rest already

QFT.... In the end they are your models, but If you want to be able to knock a metal model down and not chip it, I'd Prime =D

I always spray prime metal. I think its particularly necessary on metal models, but optional on plastic. I am not a pro level painter, however, I have a friend who is, and he says he's come around to simply undercoating models in recent years due to the higher quality of paints. But I would prime unless I knew exactly what I was doing.

Cool to hear that others use the same walmart paint I do. : ) Never had a single problem with it, just wish they made more colors. Their black, white, and gray are great.

kestral wrote:I always spray prime metal. I think its particularly necessary on metal models, but optional on plastic. I am not a pro level painter, however, I have a friend who is, and he says he's come around to simply undercoating models in recent years due to the higher quality of paints. But I would prime unless I knew exactly what I was doing.

Cool to hear that others use the same walmart paint I do. : ) Never had a single problem with it, just wish they made more colors. Their black, white, and gray are great.

Yeah. Metal is murder without primer. I've found that the citadel black doesn't stick to metal...Well, rather, a friend found that out. I just stood by and watched him waste a can of spray on a single model

Maybe shaking it helps

Ya... GW spray paint and metal do not like each other... found that out the hard way with my jump chaplain, sprayed him black, two days later anything with an edge was now chipping off paint...

Good to know it wasn't just him

I'll let him borrow my rustoleum

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Maybe shaking it helps

What would make you think that? *Reads label on GW Spray can" Oh...


You do not have to use the Spray Primers; in fact, many paint companies have paint-on primers. I have used Reaper's paint-on primer in the past and it works the same way as Spray.

Anyone who advocates painting directly on un-primed or un-undercoated plastic is a noob and should GTFO. It's as simple as that.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Ya... GW spray paint and metal do not like each other... found that out the hard way with my jump chaplain, sprayed him black, two days later anything with an edge was now chipping off paint...

It seems that gw spray paint is a hit or miss. For some people,including me, have never encountered problems with gw's spray. Others constantly have problems with them. Thoughs on why this happens?

I think GW spray paint works good for plastic but its eh for metal.

Munch Munch! wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Ya... GW spray paint and metal do not like each other... found that out the hard way with my jump chaplain, sprayed him black, two days later anything with an edge was now chipping off paint...

It seems that gw spray paint is a hit or miss. For some people,including me, have never encountered problems with gw's spray. Others constantly have problems with them. Thoughs on why this happens?

Probably because GW replaced their line of Primer a while back with spray paint. You'll notice the new stuff isn't primer. Just paint.

I use the new stuff, and it works just fine.

Munch Munch! wrote:I use the new stuff, and it works just fine.

I'm not arguing that it doesn't work, just that it isn't, in fact, primer. It does still provide a somewhat better surface to paint onto than bare metal, but it still won't be nearly as resilient as a real primer will be.

Q: Is it worth it to prime?

A: It is not worth painting it if you don't bother.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:As for it being a fallacy (please don't misuse the word "myth") ironically the science suggests otherwise.

Talking about fallacy... Please site the scientific studies done into miniature painting that support your argument or shut up. I have found no such scientific studies, and don't think any exist.

So I decided (just out of curiosity) to do my own, and record the results...

Subject 1: Plastic Space Marine.
My first subject is a plastic space marine that I undercoated last week (by hand) with skull white. I also applied a very very thin coat of red to him, but then decided I wanted to repose him... So he has been sat on my desk untouched (and slightly pink) for about a week. I'm not too concerned about damaging the paint, since I plan to break and repose him anyway.

Test part A: Finger test:
I rub my finger firmly over the model in an effort to remove paint. I find that the paint job is very smooth and secure and doesn't want to come off. I tried a few different areas, including large flat areas, detailed jagged areas and corners. I was unable to remove any paint with just my finger.

Test part B: Nail test:
This wasn't originally part of my plan, but I was so confident after my last test that I decided to notch it up and see if I could scratch paint off with my fingernail. I found I was able to press my nail quite hard without fear of doing any damage to the paint, just like you would expect from a spray finish. My conclusion is that this paint job is totally secure and not going anywhere.

Subject 2: Metal Eldar Warlock.
Though initially excited by my results, it quickly dawned on me that people would just claim plastic is not the same as metal. I needed to run my test on a metal model too. The main difficulty here was finding one that I didn't mind damaging. After much rummaging I eventually found an Eldar Warlock from a painting session a few months ago which I had undercoated by hand with skull white, then painted Golden Yellow, and washed with Blazing Orange, then remembered that I didn't really like Eldar and abandoned.

Test part A: Finger test:
Same as before, I rub my finger and thumb over the paint works in an effort to remove paint... I was actually more worried about smudging the wash with grease from my fingers, but it had had plenty of time to dry, and both paint and wash remained firmly intact.

Test part B: Nail test:
I wasn't quite as confident about this one as the Warlock has a lot of sharp corners and folds in his cloak. But figured I'd better see what happens anyway. I started by rubbing my nail gently over the paintwork and along a few edges, the paint seemed secure, which made me a little more confident so I pressed down harder and dragged my nail across the paintwork. I was sure the paint would scratch down to the metal (especially on the corner) but to my surprise it held up fine. I decided that this was more abuse than any reasonable person would willingly want to see one of their painted miniatures subjected to, so I ended my test here.

Conclusion
Both miniatures held up fine to rubbing and scratching and remained undamaged. I see nothing to suggest the paint has not adhered properly to the model, or that the the miniatures would be unfit for transporting and gaming. Both models were unvarnished, but I'm sure with varnish they would be as tough and durable as anything else.

It is irresponsible to suggest to newbies that it is okay practice to ignore what experienced modellers have been doing for donkeys' years.

Now what you have stated is a genuine and well known fallacy, known as an 'appeal to tradition', I believe you also threw out an appeal to popularity earlier, and a bunch of other nonsense which bore absolutely no relevance to the matter at hand... I'm sorry but just because lots of people do something, or do it in a completely unrelated field, or have done it for a long time, does not mean there is any significant substance or truth to it.

I will admit that undercoating with ordinary paint might require more patients than undercoating with primer. This is probably why primer exists (not because it makes paint more durable). Paint might not go on as easy, however it will go on, and I believe it gives a smoother finish, AND once it is on and dry then it is perfectly secure. Which I have tested and found to be true.

I am not being irresponsible, I'm just telling it how it is. You do not need primer to paint miniatures, you can get by just fine without it, and your miniatures will not be any the worse for not using it, and that is my finding based on actual test and not just "What I think most people probably think".

OK so all the professional miniature painters are wrong then? They all invest time, effort and money in priming their models when according to your 'scientific study', it isn't needed? And these same professional painters have been doing this for years? What fools they have been!

filbert wrote:OK so all the professional miniature painters are wrong then? They all invest time, effort and money in priming their models when according to your 'scientific study', it isn't needed? And these same professional painters have been doing this for years? What fools they have been!

all she done was prove that primer isnt fully needed but more of an optional thing, tbh iv never primed my models either and the paint stays on just fine.

All i ever done was spray them with skull white.

pretty much primer is an optional stage (pretty much the same as sprayin the models) however there are countless reason to use primer or spray paint

Hardly a "scientific" test. You have no control, and all you've done is show that paint won't peel off an unprimed model if you subject it to extremely light stress. Try some actual stress tests and use an actual control, and post again.

think its safe to let this thread die as alot has been mentioned

is it necessary to prime models?? no its not its completely optional

is it recommended?? by most people it is. for top notch paint jobs then its highly recommended but for tabletop quality then less so

personally i wont use primers, ill stick with the black/white spray paints unless goin for a GD entry(oh man i crack myself up )

It's optional in the sense that pants are optional at a job interview. You can do it if you want, but it's not going to end well.

This shouldn't be a three page discussion. Seriously, if you don't prime, you are objectively wrong and should feel bad. I didn't prime when I was a kid and I started, then I realized it was better to spend literally 5 minutes with a can of black primer and prime my models rather than spend up to an hour after every game touching up figures where the paint rubbed off.

Then again, it must be a blast repainting models that had their paint chip and rub off! It's like getting all the fun of painting my army every month!

Sealing your models after painting is optional (although important for metals) priming them is not.

Personally the only models that I have ever primed with a spray are my Land Raiders and my Drop Pod. All of my troops I have hand base coated using just the standard bottle of Chaos Black. And I've never had a problem with getting the GW paints to stick to them be they plastic or pewter.

ok lets see... why waste money on primer wen spray paint does the same thing?? in the 3 years iv had my CSM army not once have i had paint chip off, sure theres white bits buts thts due to my crap painting skills, nothin to do with it being primed or not

I dunno about you guys but I'm a Fine Arts graduate (formerly a Painting major but shifted to Visual Communication) and I prime everything I paint on that has worth, because i was taught that way and it was explained to me why. That sentence also means I don't prime my room before I paint it. That constitutes an appeal to authority and it's a fallacy but ANYWAY.

I would say priming is very advisable, not absolutely necessary. Very advisable because you gain a whole lot more benefits (i.e. having a surface paint will stick more on to, in the case of black primer making it easier for you to create shadows, in the case of white making your colors brighter.) with just a few minutes of effort? But if you don't want to do it? Suit yourself, it can work. Just be informed that:

1) Of course paint will stick better on a primed surface than a non-primed surface. Normal acrylic (which include GW paint) will probably do OK on plastics, but adding a bit of water to thin it (always preferable to have thin paint if you want to preserve the details) will make the paint less likely to stick to the surface. I'm sure it won't stick at all with metal. What you can do is thin it with water, paint and let it dry on a position that won't cause much dripping, and paint another coat of it. Priming it will save that time. But then again it could work.

2) OR you can use an unthinned (is that word?) layer of paint and obscure the details a wee bit. Not noticeable in flat surfaces but and not that noticeable in textured surfaces unless you look really hard but trust me, it does affect it.

3) In both 1 and 2, it also means that you will use more off your normal paint (not including the primer paint) if you didn't prime since your normal paint now will have to fill in the primer's role. but hey, you're saving money on the primer. Still, if you're not priming because you want to save money, you should note that last sentence: it means you're not really getting a bang for the buck when you're not using primer since you're using more paint anyway.

4) A white primer (or a white undercoat, for that matter) will make your colors stick out more. This is a fact: this is why when painting anything, either on canvas or a miniature if you want it to look less muddy you cover it first with white. I can provide all the scientific data for that if you want. A white surface is more reflective since it will bounce of most of the light unlike colored surfaces that will absorb the light. This is why you can use a white illustration board or a white piece of cloth as a light reflector for photography. This is also why it feels hotter when you're wearing black, and why the moon won't reflect any light from the sun when we color it black.

So if you want your figures to stick out more, prime it white. The plastic grey just won't do it (or you'll use more paint on the basecoat, which i bet will be a light color anyway if you want a bright model).

5) Despite all this, priming a miniature and a canvas are still two different things. Priming a canvas is a must, since the cloth will absorb the paint if you don't do it and you'll be wasting a whole lot more of paint. Priming a miniature is optional since it's more for having a surface to stick on and having instashadows (in the case of black0 or having a brigther fig (in the case of white), but the pros are more than the cons, so why not? Actually I see a few cons on priming your miniature, mostly concerned with time and money. As I have already addressed, theoretically you're using the same amount of paint (both primer and normal paint) if you prime your miniature or not. And with the time issue, well waiting for several layers of thinned paint to dry, or waiting for a thick layer of paint to dry will require (in theory) more or less the same time, maybe much more so because you'll be applying different basecoats on different parts.

Another con that was addressed is that you'll lose more details when you primed. In theory, if you want a surface that can be painted on fluidly you will still devote a layer of normal paint (thinned or no). So that doesn't mean you're using less layers, it just means you're using less primer and more normal paint.

So yes, unprimed figs can work, if you're really adamant about it. It's not about the technique, after all: it's about the painter's skill. But well, priming it makes life easier, there are almost no cons to be seen, so why not?

I'm going to guess, but I think the divide here is that the people who find priming unnessessary might be people who are usesd to painting GW plastics with acrylic paint, which actually seems to be fairly durable. I'm not sure why that is, but it does seem to be the case. That might be why they changed their spray primer to the new formula, which has been noted here doesn't really seem to act as a primer.

For models from other lines and all metals there is a definite noticable difference in the bond formed on unpriimed and/or uncleaned models. It will rub right off with repeated handling. Don't tell me it doesn't because I've seen it happen with my own eyes.

Look if you only spend 5 minutes painting each model then do whatever you want. Priming might be overkill for that level of effort. If your like me and you bleed over each model for hours than why in the world wouldn't you prime.

Lets put aside the added protection it gives you for a moment (which really needs to be combined with a good lacquer, and appropriate carrying container). The benefits for a couple minutes of spraying can't be measured. It really makes your life easier when you are trying to add depth and shade to your models. I prime black and dry brush white over it to give the recesses a darker shade and the raised details a brighter shade without doing too many layers of color. This coupled with a wash and one highlight ontop of a basecoat has significantly sped up my painting routine.

So if you are like me and are going to spray or paint on a solid color to under coat your model why wouldn't you use a primer to add more durability to your paint job? Seems like a no brainer to me. I spent too much time already painting these things. I don't want to have to do it again.

I prime every metal model every time.

Plastic it depends what I am doing. I almost always am able to start with the GW foundation paints. If I am able to do that, they coat nicely on plastic. I've had no problems with chips and flaking either. I always varnish after basing though.

My Tau are snow themed so mostly white, they get white primered.

ok so even if i was to start priming my models, where in the Uk would i get it?? none of my parents have any clue so i highly doubt my brother (who works in Halfords who deal with a load of paint, my dad works Homebase who funnily enough deals with alot of paint)

so yea would be nice to grab a can of the stuff to see if theres much difference between black spray and black primer

I'd say go for the normal paint if you can't find primer. And GW paints are more expensive, so you might be better off buying acrylic paints from other brands that are cheaper. Or use d foundation paints, since they cover better. Hey, some of my older models were "primed" with Grumbacher paint's Mars Black, and they're the best ones I have. But if you do have primer, USE IT. I advise it. Totally.

But remember, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. If it gives you apples, make apple pie. If it gives you crap, don't make anything. Please.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchCmd?srch=rimer&action=search&storeId=10001&catalogId=10151&langId=-1

Halfords has it's own line. Rustoleum and duplicolor are great, but probably hard to find in the UK. P3 is good, and should be easy to find if you have Warmachine dealers in the area.

SmackCakes wrote:I am not being irresponsible, I'm just telling it how it is. You do not need primer to paint miniatures, you can get by just fine without it, and your miniatures will not be any the worse for not using it, and that is my finding based on actual test and not just "What I think most people probably think".

There's a reason primers are so widely used in the hobby. What, do you think it's all just some huge con on the part of paint manufacturers, and that all the hobbyists have been taken in for decades? That your noob advice somehow trumps the wealth of wider experience? Nonsense, your test proves absolutely nothing. Primers prepare the surface and help paint adhere. It might not come off straight away with a scrape of a nail, but a little handing and it will be coming off the raised edges or peel/flake of later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

johnscott10 wrote:ok so even if i was to start priming my models, where in the Uk would i get it?? none of my parents have any clue so i highly doubt my brother (who works in Halfords who deal with a load of paint, my dad works Homebase who funnily enough deals with alot of paint)

so yea would be nice to grab a can of the stuff to see if theres much difference between black spray and black primer

Halford primer works a treat, I use white. I've tried lots of primers, and although it's gone a bit expensive but Halfords is reliable.

aerethan wrote:I agree that the Color Place sprays don't hold up well to handling, so often wear off if you are holding models while painting them. I use a pill bottle with coins in it as a model holder and use blue tac to keep the models base stuck to it to paint most things. Otherwise hold them by their base.

That's a bad sign -- if you can rub the primer off with your fingers, it may not be sticking to the model well enough. Of course, most people use a very, very thin primer coat, so that could be it too. If the primer is just rubbing off corners and ridges, it's probably on there good. If its coming off everywhere, it's not sticking and you are going to end up in a situation where the paint is actually trying to hold the primer in place instead of the primer adhering to the model.

Remember -- primer and paint are NOT the same thing.