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Ugly Green Trog wrote:thats the only thing i am not looking forward to: factions, I am sorry but although they are believeable at a stretch they dont really fit well in the 40k setting, (the factions in WAR felt cheesy and unrealistic enough) Orks may get hired as mercenaries but lets be honest you'd better keep them in constant contact with the enemy or they will turn on you or eachother, DE dont really fit on a large scale, Chaos are by nature chaotic, fluff-wise any alliances they have held have been bitter affairs of utmost desperation.

The imperium are completely xenophobic, the eldar think they are better than everyone else and would sacrifice an entire human system for the sake of 1 eldar life if they could see no benefit in protecting them, the tau would probably promote the idea of alliance as it fits in with their idea of the greater good somewhat.

Even though i would love to play orks or eldar I would rather have pure imperium v. chaos than a cheesy plot armoured alliance

Im pretty sure they have said they are not going to do that. The only faction at the moment is the "Imperium of man" so i guess they might throw guard and space amrines together, other than that im not sure but they wont stick chaos, eldar, or orks together

if every race was a seperate faction, then all of a sudden we are VERY DIFFERENT FROM WOW

all of a sudden were unique

SweetLou wrote:if every race was a seperate faction, then all of a sudden we are VERY DIFFERENT FROM WOW

all of a sudden were unique

Well Dark Age of Camelot (the precursor to WAR) had 3 factions. Honestly, just annoy bandwagonser by plopping high level NPC's if theres an imbalance

SweetLou wrote:If every race was a separate faction, then all of a sudden we are VERY DIFFERENT FROM WOW

All of a sudden we're unique

And then you have at least quadrupled the work load for the developers and playtesters.
It's also worth noting that "if every race was a separate faction" and being "VERY DIFFERENT FROM WOW" is not necessarily a 100% good thing.
There's a reason why WoW's successful. Part of it is the clearly delineated "Good" and "Evil" factions.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:That's the only thing I am not looking forward to: factions, I am sorry but although they are believable at a stretch they don't really fit well in the 40k setting, (the factions in WAR felt cheesy and unrealistic enough)

How in the hell did the factions in WAR feel "cheesy and unrealistic"? It's not meant to be an everyday event in WHFB. There is a reason that the factions have banded together, and it's because things are that bad. For example: in the case of Order: it takes alot to get the High Elves to leave Ulthuan. That alone is a sign of how big the events portrayed within the "storyline" are, and that's discounting the fact that bloody Tyrion is leading the expeditionary force to the Old World.

All this game needs is a suitably important series of events to be portrayed.
Oh, and while we're at it?

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Orks may get hired as mercenaries but lets be honest you'd better keep them in constant contact with the enemy or they will turn on you or each other, DE don't really fit on a large scale, Chaos are by nature chaotic, fluff-wise any alliances they have held have been bitter affairs of utmost desperation.

Orks don't need to be "hired" as mercenaries. You point them towards an objective, and keep them supplied with weapons and slaves and they're fine.
Dark Eldar will do whatever they want, normally just performing acts of terror and sabotage within the scope of the larger war. How does that not fit within a large scale?
Chaos is not by its nature "chaotic". The fact that we've seen organized armies fielded by them, with no animosity between Cults that should have been cutting each others throats tells us that.

And let's not forget that in a faction, the varying races do not have to get along with each other all the time. They're not trading partners sitting at a table saying howdy doody and making small talk while arranging dinner get togethers. They're at war with a common enemy.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:The Imperium are completely xenophobic, the Eldar think they are better than everyone else and would sacrifice an entire human system for the sake of 1 Eldar life if they could see no benefit in protecting them, the Tau would probably promote the idea of alliance as it fits in with their idea of the greater good somewhat.

See above. Alliance does not necessarily have to be an easy thing. See WW2 Allied Nations and the interaction between the US and UK with Russia.

Also:
The Imperium, while xenophobic, also is not above "allying" with Xenos and using them as a form of ablative armor for their own forces. After all...if the Eldar commit themselves to a battle, it's a big deal. The Eldar can't really afford any losses in a campaign, while the Imperium can. Think in the long run here.
The Eldar will sacrifice an entire human system for the sake of one Eldar life, but they'll also come to the aid of a human system if it's all that stands between an Ork Waagh! and an Exodite world.
The Tau would promote the idea of an alliance, of course. And a clever Imperial commander will accept it, let the Tau soak up the casualties and potentially lose their more valuable hardware during those battles.

Gibbsey wrote:The only faction at the moment is the "Imperium of Man" so I guess they might throw Guard and Space Marines together, other than that I'm not sure but they won't stick Chaos, Eldar, or Orks together.

Actually, the only race that is confirmed at the moment is the Imperium of Man.

And they've already said that Guard and Marines are basically "classes" within that race.
Chaos and Orks have a history of working together, even if it's not directly together. Orks will follow Chaos invasions at times because they know targets will be ripe for the plundering and they can get some damned good fighting in against the Spiky Boyz or the Shiny Boyz.

Kanluwen wrote:There's a reason why WoW's successful. Part of it is the clearly delineated "Good" and "Evil" factions

Do you play WoW?
There is no clearly defined "Good" and "Evil" factions, unless you count NPC factions as the evil faction.

god I hope its a PVP game care bears ruin mmos

I think what he meant by "good" and "evil" was specifically "cool people" and "useless noobs".

Last day I played Allaince:



Like honestly wtf?


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nids and crons are best kept to fps maybe.

WAR never excited me much, I mean it would have been fun to play and everything for the fluff/ lore.

But man.

A 40k MMO.

How cool is that.

Pretty damn cool.

ph34r wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's a reason why WoW's successful. Part of it is the clearly delineated "Good" and "Evil" factions

Do you play WoW?
There is no clearly defined "Good" and "Evil" factions, unless you count NPC factions as the evil faction.

Actually...there are.

The Horde is home to the majority of the "evil" races(Undead, Trolls, and Orcs) that have persisted throughout Warcraft's existence.
The only races that haven't tried to commit genocide that are on the Horde are the Goblins, Blood Elves, and Tauren. That's a short list, and I hesitate to put the Goblins on it simply because of the fact that they're slaving little gits

The Alliance features, again, a majority of the "good" races(Draenei, Gnomes, Dwarves, and Night Elves being that majority).
One could argue that humans are "evil" because they put the Orcs in what amounted to a demonic detox facility after two separate extradimensional incursions.
The same thing can be said of their treatment of the Trolls, who had y'know...tried to butcher and enslave them while they were still roving bands of barbarians.

But hey. What's even funnier is...it's like there's varying degrees of how fethed up even the "good" races are.

It's almost like that system could work for 40k!

I rather have a silly allaince/plot than excluding entire sections of fans from playing their favorite race. That's not taken into consideration workload of course.

I mean WH40k is pretty silly itself and shouldn't be taken too seriously, so if some sort of half-assed plot lets my tau buddy and my necron immortal hammerdin /dance till the sun goes down so be it.

Sounds more fun than IoM X infinite

Actually...there are.

Actually.... still no.

The Horde is home to the majority of the "evil" races(Undead, Trolls, and Orcs) that have persisted throughout Warcraft's existence.
The only races that haven't tried to commit genocide that are on the Horde are the Goblins, Blood Elves, and Tauren. That's a short list, and I hesitate to put the Goblins on it simply because of the fact that they're slaving little gits

The Alliance features, again, a majority of the "good" races(Draenei, Gnomes, Dwarves, and Night Elves being that majority).
One could argue that humans are "evil" because they put the Orcs in what amounted to a demonic detox facility after two separate extradimensional incursions.
The same thing can be said of their treatment of the Trolls, who had y'know...tried to butcher and enslave them while they were still roving bands of barbarians.

But hey. What's even funnier is...it's like there's varying degrees of how fethed up even the "good" races are.

It's almost like that system could work for 40k!

Orcs: freed from their demonic curse, they no longer desire to exterminate the humans elves and dwarves.
Trolls: The darkspear tribe, having lived on a tiny island for the entirety of their pre-horde existence, have tried to genocide nobody.
Tauren: Are peace loving
Blood Elves: Are angry but have only ever tried to wipe out the evil Forest Trolls.
Forsaken: Are fairly evil. Sylvannas is probably the evilest main character.
Goblins: Are not evil at all, they just like money.

then again the alliance...

Humans tried to exterminate the Orcs
Night elves royally fethed up the world several times


Honestly everyone in 40k is evil, but the DE are a lot more evil than the tau, than say the forsaken are eviller than the gnomes.

Humans haven't tried to exterminate the Orcs, actually. They put them in internment camps, sure. But that's hardly genocide especially after that enemy has invaded your world twice, cast down entire kingdoms and was only stopped by their homeworld breaking apart.
Night Elves I'll give you. But there was demonic influence there too, so if Orcs are excused from genocide by that excuse so should Night Elves.

You're wrong about the Trolls though. The Darkspear Tribe was originally from the Eastern Kingdoms, like the rest of the Forest Trolls were. They were even part of Zul'jin's army to purge Quel'Thalas.
Tauren and Blood Elves are, out of the entirety of the Horde, the "nice" guys.
Goblins are the perfect example of a moralless businessman. Enslaving your own people to make a quick buck may not be "evil", but it sure as hell isn't "good".

Darkspears? I'm pretty sure they lived in stranglethorn until they left and sailed west. They were part of an army to attack the High Elves on the other extreme of the continent?

Well, there's an easy way that this could have happened.
The attempt to purge Quel'Thalas was during the Second War, right?

The Alliance and High Elves broke the back of the Forest Troll Empire during that, and they spread out all over the place afterwards. Darkspears end up in STV, then left and sailed west after Hakkar took residence in Zul'Gurub.

Works, right?

Last time I checked the Orcs were from Nagrand I guess that makes them a bunch of easy-going farming types.

The Trolls are definately what you could call the most "evil" of the races.

--------

Now what we are calling "purge" Quel'thelas is an intended act of genocide. So if we are talking evil we are presuming they wanted to kill each and every one and we are saying the Trolls are going along with this willingly, no demonic curse etc.

So I guess that is pretty "evil". Now having said that the trolls are a "race" of "tribes" they are used to going to war on each other. If you want to pick points you could say they were ignorant in a sense, and say that maybe it never occured to them that would be "so bad" especially considering, to make a little joke, the elven archers are their own tactical rivals so to speak.

It could then be argued further that the Trolls have grown since then not just the Darkspear tribe but working todeal with Hakkar as well.

-----
Now having said if you don't think of the Trolls as a playable Horde/ Alliance race they also definately serve as "evil" or maybe "greedy/ limitless ambitious" antagonists not just in Kalimdor/ Eastern Kingdoms but in Wrath as well. Now it could be said that the trolls in Wrath give us a chance to see the trolls as yes, you could say having limited hesitation to spill blood, but still not necessarly on the same level as say Sergeras or the other Demons/ Doom-lords. I mean they do not medidate daily on how much they just HATE EVERYONE else SO MUCH.

Now back on topic so to speak I don't know how anyone can consider Thrall or Vol'jin or even Garrosh to be "evil". Sylvannas has an alliance with the Val'kyr and members of the Alliance are, quite frankly, routinely tortured and worse by the Forsaken which she could not have been entirely ignorant of considering it happened right next to her palace.

That torture is what you could call "evil". It could also be hypothesised Sylvannas shares a side of the insanity that may very well affect all? Forsaken.

And there are of course "evil" Humans in the world, not all of which are under the influence or related to Demons.


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I mean the first you could name is Kel'Thuzad or anyone else trained at the Scholomance.

This is also getting off-topic from the 40k MMO but it is always nice to see WoW on dakka.

asimo77 wrote:I hope they attempt to make every race playable at some point. It would be kind of a dick move to screw over nid and cron fans, or really anyone who sees their fave race delegated to npc duties.

I think it would be an even bigger dick move to do them in an insincere way that forces them to fit a framework for a game and that doesn't fit them and would force developer to invent something that strongly deviates from the established nature of the two.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
The imperium are completely xenophobic, the eldar think they are better than everyone else and would sacrifice an entire human system for the sake of 1 eldar life if they could see no benefit in protecting them, the tau would probably promote the idea of alliance as it fits in with their idea of the greater good somewhat.

Only the Eldar understand why the Eldar do what they do.

In the RT era the Imperium fought alongside allied xenos often enough. First we can say that not all parts of the Imperium are equally xenophobic... this could be one of those very slightly less xenophobic areas. It always comes back to Nazis, but if they were able to overlook some of their racist beliefs for the sake of opportunistic pragmatism I tend to think the Imperium would as well. The Imperium would fight and win the war now, purge the population later.

I'd like to see a faction system similar to Everquest, where there are tons of different factions, all of which treat you differently based on your race\class\god and current standing. For example, killing a chaos cultist would simultaneously increase your faction with The Imperium*, Tau of X, Eldar of X etc, and would lower your faction with Chaos.

If they were able to handle this in 1999, I think they should be able to do it in 2012.

*Note that "The Imperium" is a group of different factions, which would include Dark Angels, Blood Ravens, Ultramarines, Imperial Guard, etc etc, just as when you PK'd an elf in Everquest, you'd get a message indicating your faction standing has decreased with Many Elves (rather then indicate the dozen or so different elves you annoyed).

You forget to mention that there was no organized PvP in EverQuest. You could kill members of your own faction.

And you didn't lose faction when killing PCs. You only lost it killing NPCs.