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Spellbound wrote:Some comments of my own:

Check out the points cost on chaos bikers. 78 for 5? I'd buy that! I think you meant to say 3 bikers cost that amount.

This was answered in the previous post:

Just Dave wrote:

zub wrote:Chaos Bikers
- there should be stated 3 chaos bikers for 78, not 5

Oh yeah, that's a typo; cheers! Under that typo you'd actually be buying 5 CSM's for 3pts more than usual that cannot score!

Doombolt still pales in comparison to the destructive power of a primaris psyker.

Powers such as Doombolt are typically moderately weak, but provide reliable hitting-power. It's still likely to take out 2 Terminators a turn. What's the power of a primaris psyker?

Special characters seem to cost a lot for what they have.

The difficulty is that people are likely (and have) to say otherwise; generally I've improved them but kept them at a similar price. With characters such as this, I also need to try and ensure that they're not a reason to not take a normal HQ. Please give me some specific examples however.

The army still suffers from troops handicapping characters - Abaddon, for example, still runs away if attached to his

True to an extent I'd argue, however Abaddon's typical bodyguard (Terminators) are stubborn, whilst cut units are fearless, IoCU can re-roll leadership tests while this is a problem for all characters like this.

Chaos theory - wow. Why choose doombolt again? At least give Doombolt a longer range, so players have the choice of "at short range, chaos theory. At longer range, Doombolt".

Because Doombolt is reliable? With Chaos Theory you may just get a 5" range, Str4, AP6 and 1 small blast?

Your krak grenades differ from the IG krak grenades, at least the ones fired from a grenade launcher. Might want to make it a different weapon, or use the standard profile.

The grenade launcher as a whole is different; it's created by CSM's and the Dark Mechanicum due to the simplicity, reliability and versatility of the weapon. Plasma/Flamer/Melta weapons require specific and expensive and extensive facilities and production process; grenades can be man-made and easily produced; a necessity for the Chaos Legions.

Does a rebelling daemon weapon still ignore armour saves?

Daemon weapon - mark of tzeentch. I hate this rule, rending on a 4+ INSTEAD of being a power weapon. That means vs marines it's a power weapon, essentially, but against a guardsman a roll to-wound of 2 or 3 will allow an armor save. What? Just make it a power weapon that also rends on a 4+, don't replace its armour-ignoring when it rolls a 3.

It says "All Daemon Weapons are two-handed Power Weapons that add an additional D6 attacks (roll at the beginning of each close combat phase) in combat. On a roll of 1 the Daemon inside the weapon rebels and the bearer suffers a single wound with no saves of any kind allowed.
Furthermore if it rebels the user gains no additional attacks and all bonuses for wielding the Daemon Weapon are lost for the duration of that turn.
Daemon Weapons also confer an additional ability depending on the mark of the character who wields it, as described below:"

Which means they ignore all saves if the weapon rebels and the Tzeentch's rending is ON TOP of the normal abilities.

Absolutely love the scourge claw rules. Very nice and characterful, and makes them DEADLY vs hordes. Have you considered reinstating the "doubles its attacks" on a blood raging dreadnought like in the 3.5 codex?

Thank you; not confusing are they?
And no, I thought that the current worked well enough and aren't game-breaking as it were.

Something I want to see in the next chaos codex: Either make terminator armour WAY cheaper [because the characters all come with a 5+ invulnerable save stock] or have terminator armour add +1 to the invulnerable save. That makes lords/sorcerers a 5+, terminators lords/sorcerers a 4+, and Abaddon/Tzeentch terminator characters a 3+ invulnerable. Make the options be actual CHOICES, because they grant better benefits. Especially in the case of chaos - do you want to buy chaos armor for 2+ armor, and ride in a rhino, or get the 2+ armor and boost your invul, but prevent sweeping advance and limit your wargear and transport options?

The Chaos Terminator Armour is intended to be priced to take this into consideration: it's 10pts cheaper than that of the Space Wolves for example. Think of it like this: Chaos/Runic/Artificer Armour is 20pts -- Power Weapons are 15pts -- Twin-linked Boltguns are around 3pts. That would make the Terminator Armour worth approximately 38pts, but is charged only 30pts, due to its restrictions. You could pay for the Chaos Armour or you could get Terminator armour which looks good, allows deep-strike, provides a power weapon and storm bolter and can allow you to still get Chaos Gifts.

Daemonic mounts - the question with daemonic mounts has always been "now, where do I GO?" Characters with these mounts have a real tough time joining units. They either get slowed down or slow down the unit. They can't ride in transports and there's no other good unit to ride with, meaning that a character on a mount really needs to be able to stand on their own. A bonus to toughness or something probably needs to be considered.

There are currently only 2 beast mounts that prevents them from joining other units; undivided and slaanesh; Undivided provides the toughness bonus whilst Slaanesh provides additional attacks, initiative and WS. I was hoping this would be pretty sufficient.

Lesser Daemons - these still take a force organization chart? I can live with that I guess. And if I'm part of a legion, my daemons aligned with my legion cost only 11 points but get all those benefits?

.....S4 T4 rending daemonettes for 11 points apiece? Alrighty! Bit odd specifying they don't gain rending vs vehicles, but ah well. It seems like the Tzeentch daemons get a raw deal for 16 points, though. Maybe make their invul 4+ as well, or increase the gun to assault 3.

"Lesser and Greater Daemons do not occupy a slot on the Force Organisation Chart (and therefore cannot count as the mandatory choices), but are otherwise treated as Troops and HQ choices respectively"
So no, they do not take up a FoC slot and as the -5pts benefits only apply to models/units with a Warband Icon - which Daemons cannot take - they are 16pts for what you describe.
Also, it states "conferring the ‘normal’ bonuses as well as those listed below" so the Tzeentch Daemons are 4++.

Gift of the Gods - Woah, woah, WOAH! I can pay points for terminators, pay points for champions, pay points for gift, and become spawn?

Actually I just read the statline for spawn - alright, not that bad. And it would be a unit of 10 of them? 10d6 S6 attacks eh? I can live with that.

Not quite; only Terminator Champion units of 5-men can take gifts. Regarding spawn, you would have paid 45pts for each Terminator (and then any upgrades) with Gift of the Gods; this unit however could then become spawn; costing you at least 150pts worth of upgrades and your intentions for the Terminator Unit. However, alternatively your 450pts terminator unit could be able to re-roll armour saves (potentially 2+,3++ re-rollable), gain +10D3 attacks, better strength and more.
The rewards and risks for Gift of the Gods is high.

Something I've always wanted to see in a chaos codex, and yet never see it: Preferred Enemy: Space Marines.

Read the fluff. Chaos Marines are itching to fight marines all the time. They'll perform raids and stuff just to get marines out there so they can fight them. They consider guard easy and boring, and they always talk about how well they know their tactics, fighting style, and even ways to get around their armour by hitting them in the weak spots. All CSM should have preferred enemy: Space Marines, and if not all, at LEAST all the elite and HQ units.

That would really need to be included in the Space Marine Codex, who'd benefit from it significantly less as they don't like close combat. Fluff-wise it makes sense, I agree, however game =/= fluff all the time and this would be very difficult to implement.

Chaos Spawn should be 40 points. Compare them to ogryns. You'll be higher initiative, faster, higher strength but not as good an armor save and no gun. Compared to grotesques, you're faster but don't have fnp. 40 sounds better for those guys. They have a daemon prince statline, except for skills and speed.

I can see what you're saying, but Ogryn's are generally considered a rubbish unit. Similarly, they can actually embark on transports and aren't such a big target. Daemon Princes on the other hand are monstrous creatures and so get all those benefits.

Same problem with dreadknights: You say wings make you jump infantry. Clarify for daemon princes.

Good point.

Greater daemons: Still have the high initiative problem with terrain slowing us down, even the Slaanesh's initiative 8 is a bit of a waste then. No Eternal Warrior, still? Or will the Daemon rule be applied to this codex?

Damn. Swear I had Eternal Warrior in their somewhere. Yes; both Daemons are still immune instant death, I just hadn't written it! Good point again.

----

That's all I've got time to answer to tonight; I'll attend to the rest tomorrow. I will point out the following contradictions in your suggestions:

S7 isn't very good at killing vehicles. Relying on noisemarines for anti-tank is pretty much a mistake,

If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? ...
give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range

Cheers, Dave. Btw Spellbound; what's your general opinion on my 'dex?

Grenat wrote:Hey o/

Nice to see a good work like this one !
I will recomend it to my friend who play CSM.
By what I can read, I think he will be very pleased !
(and we are fond of friendly games with special rules or fan dex, so no problem to test it )

Thanks Grenat! Much appreciated! Please recommend it to your friend; I'm about to implement an update, but otherwise it's my pleasure. Please tell me what he thinks of it! Cheers!

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I wanna see some battle reports with this Codex just to see how it turns out.

Me and you both!
From the little reports people have given me it seems pretty balanced and no more powerful than existing Codices.

Spellbound wrote:Why are obliterators costing more, but get worse in every way? No eternal warrior [not that they should have it, unless you leave them T4], still S4 T4, and have to pick 2 weapons, so they're worthless in assault if you want an assault weapon and a long-ranged weapon?

How are they worse in every way?! The only way they are worse is that they cost 5pts more; otherwise they are the same as the current Obliterators (a very good unit) but are actually capable of possessing more firepower.

Chaos vindicator still pays same price as marine vindicator and doesn't come with the second gun? k.

To be fair, that's how it is in the current Codex. Still, it was an omission and has been changed.

What the hell reason do you have for the daemon prince price jump, by the way? Building a lash prince as I have it now is 155 points. Under your codex, the exact same model with the exact same abilities, with +1 invul save, costs 215! And it's not really any harder to kill! How in the world can you justify that?

I've stated my reasoning behind this before. Look at the current Daemon Prince compared to the Lord/Sorcerer and what you get for 10pts more. The Daemon Prince's cost has been changed recently anyway, but as I said I've stated my reasoning behind this several times. Similarly, compare him to the Dreadknight and Carnifex/Tyrant/Trygon.

I dunno, some things I like but on the whole, things seem way overpowered or WAY WAY overcosted. And the marks seem more about restricting what you can take, rather than granting access to mark-only things. What if I want a Slaanesh-marked defiler with I4, but I don't want blastmasters? Why does it have fewer attacks? Why does that upgrade cost so many points?

If you don't want Blastmasters then you just use the ordinary defiler? The -1 attack was due to balance and to focus it on shooting; where you pay points for the 8 Strength 7 shots.

You need to rethink some of those options. Rather than saying "you get the mark of slaanesh, and this and this, and you lose this and this, period, if you pay x points" say "you may buy the mark of slaanesh, which gives you this bonus. Then you can buy these upgrades". Now, when I'm paying points, I'm getting a BENEFIT [+1 initiative], and I've now unlocked the OPTION to buy myself blastmasters if I like the idea of a dakka defiler running around [though I still can't fire the battle cannon and another gun, which kinda blows. Might fix that, or allow the battle cannon to be replaced], or maybe even allow the heavy flamer to be a twin-linked doomsiren, or make a vehicle-class doomsiren that's S6.

I designed the mark-specific defilers to be as they're described in the fluff (look up defilers on lexicanum for an example). If you don't want that flavour of defiler then can you not just use a normal defiler?

And why do the warbands have such arbitrary restrictions? No bikers for Tzeentch? No Vindicators for Slaanesh? Where's the fluff behind those, or did each legion just HAVE to have something they can't bring?

Both. Have you ever heard of The Thousand Sons using Bikers? Can you imagine when they were taken from prospero by Tzeentch he took their bikes with them too? It's seemingly unheard of in the fluff and doesn't suit their playstyle.
Vindicators are a very blunt, crude instrument. Slaanesh and the Emperors children appear to prefer grace and flow; enjoying the pleasure and delicacy of an enemy being methodically picked apart, rather than smashed into pieces. Quite simply a Vindicator doesn't appear to suit Slaanesh or the Emperors Children. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

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You buy the mark for a unit for a MODEL in the unit. Does this mean the mark goes away if that model dies? You clarified that if you combat squad both combat squads get the benefit of a purchased mark - so how does that work?

Maybe change it to the UNIT buys the mark. At which point I'd like to suggest maybe taking it back to the old school days and paying x points for the marks for each model, that way a 5-man squad and a 15-man squad pay appropriately for it, rather than 5-man squads being HOSED and 15-man getting off real cheap.

That was due to it originally being Icons; I simply replaced Icon with Mark, however you are correct with your observation and this has now been changed to make it the mark for the entire squad as was intended. Thanks.

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Sacred numbers: Don't force small squads on people. Make the max unit size 20 models, and give the free champion to any multiple of the sacred number.

Think of army composition. If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? Blastmasters are mediocre but kind of an unreliable waste. If I go berserkers, they can at least take plasma pistols and honestly their hth attacks are good enough. Plaguemarines take normal meltaguns. Thousand Sons are stuck with the sorcerer trying to pop tanks. Perhaps provide options for the cult units to all be able to take care of armour? Why can't a noisemarine take a meltagun? Why can't a standard noisemarine carry a doomsiren? Only one blastmaster per squad? Look at grey knights for example - paying a lot of points per trooper, they don't depend on taking anti-tank meltaguns in their squads, they have the option to take 2 psycannons to handle anti-tank and anti-horde. Allow noisemarines to take multiple blastmasters and give thousand sons either the option to take a meltagun [seriously, why can't they?] or have an alternate profile for their bolters - instead of rapid-firing the bolter shells, give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range and two units can work together, one popping a transport and the other gunning down those inside, rather than being absolutely FORCED to depend on long-range fire from elsewhere in the army or being FORCED to take regular CSMs for the sole purpose of having some meltaguns.

In answer to many of your questions: balance and fluff.
Noise Marines all wielding Doom Sirens or Meltaguns would be far too powerful for the former and doesn't fit with the fluff for the latter.
The Noise Marines are pretty much as capable as popping tanks as the 'Zerkers; both can take PF and MB's; both can have 4 Str7 shots.
Thousand Sons are uniform and automaton; they don't appear to have specialist troopers other than the Sorcerers.
Regarding the need to take certain types of units to fulfil certain roles; that's the case within almost all codices.

Spellbound wrote:S7 can kill rhinos. But wasting everyone's fire and standing still so one guy can fire 4 shots is not very good. If every 1kson had a s7 shot, though, that's a lot of shots going into that tank. Look at what grey knights get for 20 points: 4 strength 7 rending or EIGHT s7 rending if they stay still. Put it in perspective.

Many units have only a single weapon that forces the rest to just watch (e.g. Psycannons vs. vehicles, Sorcerers vs. Vehicles, Tactical Marines heavy weapons, Grey Hunters vs. vehicles, the list goes on), it's nothing new for Noise Marines, if anything it's less of a problem due to squad size.
In perspective as you demand I do so; the Grey Knights are a completely different army with a different play-style (released after this fandex I might add), who lack anti-tank elsewhere and therefore must fulfil it with the Psycannon which is known as a VERY powerful weapon.
The Blast Master serves to add a greater punch to the Noise Marines; increasing their firepower and even allowing them to take out light vehicles if the situation demands it. The Blast Master is more akin to an autocannon than a psycannon IMHO and autocannons are a well-respected weapons that are used to take out light-vehicles and infantry alike. The Blast Master can possess just as many Str7 shots as a Rifleman dreadnought; what's considered a strong build.
The Blast Master firing 4 str7 shots would also be accompanied by 20 str4 shots; allowing them to work against infantry as was intended.
The Blast Master is primarily anti-infantry, however it can work against vehicles at a push; much like Noise Marines themselves.

11 points seemed like a steal for the slaanesh demons, 16 is a ripoff if they can't rend vehicles. Take off the no-vehicle thing or give them the grenades that codex daemons daemonettes have. Or just use codex: daemons daemons.

The Grenades thing is an idea which I'll consider.
I've also covered in-depth why I'm not porting the entries straight from the Daemons Codex, but basically it comes down to balance.
I can see what you're saying about the rending, but bear in mind 5pts for Fleet, +1 Initiative and Non-vehicle rending is still a good deal; rending alone can be worth those 5pts.

And yeah, I got that when it rebels you don't get any saves. What I mean is, does it still ignore enemy armor saves. You said it loses all its abilities, I was wondering if that includes being a power weapon.

Yep, that would include power weapon status.

And why is a daemon weapon more expensive for a daemon prince anyway? They already ignore armour saves, which is a large part of the daemon weapon's cost. They don't really have any more attacks and they already wound on a 2+, so giving extra strength is mind of a moot point. Other abilities like poisoned 3+ actually nerf the daemon's strength. Sure they get a re-roll, but so would a S4 chaos lord against many things.

Due to feedback; originally I had them at the same price because I thought the loss of power weapon bonus was enough; however feedback has seemed to suggest that with a Daemon Weapon they can become VERY powerful and I have to agree. The +D6 attacks is a big thing, whilst the other bonuses Daemon Weapons are also very powerful. I'd imagine 3+ re-rollable is actually better odds than 2+, whilst I'd also imagine the lord would be 4+'ing most things without a Daemon Weapon.

Lucius the Eternal was the specific character I was looking at. I was comparing him to a typical character that can achieve similar things for fewer points. A wolf lord can be eternal warrior and get the re-rolls on everything, not just enemy independent characters, and have a 4+ invul save all the time, not just against characters and monsters, for cheaper. He doesn't have a doomsiren and WS7 I7, though, which I'll admit comes in handy.

Please described to me such a Wolf Lord...
I'm pretty pleased with Lucius actually; the Doomsiren itself is a powerful weapon, whilst eternal warrior, re-rolling wounds, initiative and WS all make him a deadly combatant, but even more so against characters IMHO.

I think the special characters should have more fancy rules. Not necessarily to make them more deadly - yeah it's nice to get re-rolls to everything for example - but to make them more characterful. Lucius's whip and skill could be made into some sort of parry rule. Take away all re-rolls [though re-rolling to hit for being such a good swordsman would be nice], give him a lot of attacks, and have him basically sacrifice an attack to rob enemy models of attacks. Say Lucius gets 5 base attacks, plus one for two weapons. A chaplain charges and has 5 attacks total. Lucius sacrifices all but one attack, takes away all the chaplain's attacks, and still has one to spare to get in lucky thrusts.

I'd rather just have Lucius be more likely to kill the Chaplain before he attacks than rely on a single attack.

Typhus's psychic powers can't be nullified - why? why him? Why CAN Ahriman's powers be nullified? Isn't Ahriman the better sorcerer? I'm fine if both want to pass psychic tests automatically because they're both skilled psykers [though I know at the moment you don't have typhus able to do that] but Typhus just seems to be the better sorcerer here. Also, as a general rule of thumb, compare Ahriman to Njal stormcaller. At the moment, in the current official chaos codex, Njal stormcaller is totally better than Ahriman in every single possible way imaginable - just keep comparing the two until they seem about equal in power, or tone down Ahriman's cost.

Typhus' powers appear to be more of a result of his corruption and influence of Chaos IMHO; you can imagine the effects of Nurgles Rot or Winds just seeping from his armour and being, rather than being physically/consciously cast. I may change Typhus so his can be nullified however.
Ahriman is the better Sorcerer; he can cast 3 times as many powers and knows all the powers. He also can augment his powers.
I'm unsure why you're comparing the Ahriman in the GW Codex to Njal, when this is about my efforts at a fandex. I consciously made him comparable to Njal in mine. Ahriman is BS5, can cast 2 shooty powers, can augment his powers and can cast more powers per turn, as well as being tougher and cheaper. However, Njal has his own Lord of Tempests rule; the arguably better SW powers and better nullification, yet costs more.

I hear what you're saying about lord mounts. Simple fact: Nobody takes one, ever. EVER. Competitive lists, fun lists, they're just not good. Know what's good? A thunderwolf mount. It makes them fast, it makes them tough, it makes them stronger and deadlier. They also have a better wargear setup so they CAN be more resilient. They can take storm shields, and the belt of russ, and otherwise get better invul saves than chaos generally can, because apparently chaos can't pick up a storm shield. A thunderwolf mount isn't just a bike, it's not toughness 4(5) it's toughness FIVE, which makes a MASSIVE difference in surviving melta shots and missile launchers. THAT is when it becomes worth it, and that's why we see wolf lords on thunderwolf mounts commonly, and yet NEVER see chaos lords on steeds.

I know what you're saying; in retrospect I will likely change Chaos Steeds to be more akin to TWC Lords, although I don't see why some of your comments such as the bike comparison and extra wargear come into account?

And no, your army list doesn't say only units of 5 can buy the gift of the gods. Only units of 5 can purchase one of the Gifts of Chaos, but the 5 point roll on the table can be made for an entire 10-man unit of champions if you wanted.

I know my own Codex! I thought you were referring to gifts of Chaos.

And yeah after reading the entries for the gifts of the gods, the only one I hate is 2. 1 is..... hit or miss. Yeah, you don't have your terminators anymore. But the unit you now have is ridiculously powerful still, and while the enemy gets the KP for the terminators, they don't get an additional one for the spawn so you can just throw them out at whatever you like. I just hate things that do NOTHING. Chaos seems to be the only army book where you can PAY for potentially NOTHING. Random buff? Sure. Random buff with chance for penalty? ergh.... not... uh-uh, don't really like it. BUT, it's only 5 points, so not that worried about it.

And that's the big thing for me. As I said before, you can get big benefits or a loss. Chaos is fickle, but not in such a way where you can't influence it or it will completely ruin your game (compare to the almost entirely random and compulsory Daemons Codex deployment or the old Possessed).

Um....why....why would preferred enemy: Space Marines need to be included in the space marine codex? Marines learn how to use their armor, sure, but they're not studying how to dismantle each other the way chaos space marines do. And CSM can modify their armor to suit their tastes or, often, grow into their armour so it's like their skin. The same rules don't go the other way. It's easy to implement that rule. All chaos space marines [not daemons or vehicles, which are too clumsy to really take advantage of such weaknesses] gain PE: Space Marines. Done deal.

I'm not sure why you're going on about their armour?
Regarding preferred enemy; the Space Marines hate the Chaos Space Marines too; they are a blight on their record; their image as humanities ultimate protectors and the Emperors greatest creation; every Chaos Space Marine is a worthy threat to the Imperium and a mockery of all the astartes once stood for. The Space Marines are staunchly loyal to the Emperor and their heritage; they have every reason to hate the Chaos Space Marines; they are the anti-thesis of what they stand for, the shadow on their past and the destroyer of their nobility. They too would have preferred enemy: Chaos Space marines if the CSM's did.
They wont however; it's a pretty clumsy and unnecessary rule IMHO and as we know the fluff =/= tabletop, in an ideal world that would be the case but it's not and it's not going to be at least in my Codex as I'm not also doing Codex: Space Marines (for now ). Honestly, I would rather not discuss this further.

Speaking of dreadnoughts, many times in the fluff CSMs [well, at least Word Bearers] will use dreadnoughts for sage advice. A dreadnought option for a chaos lord would be pretty neat. Just like buying terminator armour, you can buy a walker sarcophagus for x amount of points and it comes with a scourge and a gun. Keep the 5+ invulnerable save and some of the gift of chaos options. That one needs more thought, but it's a neat idea.

"many times" and "at least Word Bearers" seems to contradict itself. Nonetheless, whilst they may be used as sage advice, it's a significant difference from the leader of a warband (who may go psycho for extended periods of time too). This would require a whole new stat-line and whilst a cool idea I think it's best left to the current dreadnoughts. I am investigating a way to make them a Heavy Support choice also however.
Some of your ideas would seem more suitable for your own attempts at a fandex IMHO, rather than inclusion in this one.

If I come across as rude Spellbound that would be because I'm trying to avoid writing too much (brevity) and it's how you've come across to me. You may notice I appear to much more polite to Zub and Pskyo for example as they are the same to me. It's not intended to offend. It's not that I'm rejecting your opinion - despite how I may have perceived you as saying/intending it - I've taken a lot of it into account, however I admit, I still disagree with some of it.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Have you considered rewriting other codecies like Eldar or Tyranids? I think it would be neat to start a fandex team on Dakka, fixing really bad things and sending them into GW to be ignored.

Ironically I'm currently brain-stormed ideas for the Eldar as I MAY do them next...

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Also, as a Tzeentch fan, I've got to say that the Tzeentch psychic powers (especially the Warcoven) is just too powerful. If the squad is large enough I can kill any enemy unit per turn by looking at them too hard. I've been thinking about what you've said about rhinos being too fragile, but they're still fast enough to get the job done. Besides, there are plenty of assault armies that would be destroyed during turns running at them. Consider this: Bolt of change has a range of 18". A Rhino with an assault unit goes flat out, 18". With proper spacing, a skilled player could wreck the transport, kill most of the squad off and send the survivors running. Even if they DO get into close combat, force weapons are 10 pts each. Three carriers properly spread out can attack six units in close combat and insta-gib each of them.

It's not a hard fix, too. I'd reccomend lowering Doom Bolt (which humbles even the most powerful terminators) to Assault 2, lowering the Strength of Bolt of Tzeentch to 9 at the least, making players pay for their powers (even if it's just ten points) OR limiting the number of sorcerers per squad. As it stands, these guys are the most powerful squad in the whole codex. If my guesstimation is correct, they could even take out most of the special character rosters.

A fluffy reccomendation would be to swap their BS and WS. Tzeentch armies are supposed to be squishy and shooty, not tough and choppy.

Another option I just thought of would be limiting them to one squad of warcovens per army. Psykers aren't easy to come by, and despite that the Thousand Sons were known for their extreme number of sorcerers, having more than 20 per army is a little cheesy. It was cheesy when the Grey Knights did it, despite that they had the whole galaxy as their recruiting grounds, and a squad of psykers, each individually very powerful is still cheesy. I was ecstatic when I heard that each Grey Knight squad would be able to use a psychic power, and I thought it was a genuinely good idea to only let them use a single psychic power per turn (which affected the whole squad). This feels like overkill to me. A squad of five sounds like a good number just thinking about it, that's three potential Str 5 AP2 As. 3 attacks, 9 in total and two Str 10 AP1 As. 1 attacks, which has a 2/3 chance to hit/wound and would kill approximately 3 terminator marines for a total cost of 230 (for 5 warcoveners and 3 force swords.) An assault squad of Terminators costs 200 points for 5, meaning that in a single round of average shooting, they're likely to almost make up their entire point value against a force that costs only slightly less.

Thanks for the feedback mate!
I can understand your concern; however would you still consider it a problem taking into account:
- Sorcerers still need a 3+ to hit with their nasty powers
- Sorcerers are only marginally tougher than your standard MeQ but cost almost 3x as much
- Sorcerers are very capable of killing themselves through perils
- Sorcerers can be nullified
- Sorcerers in sufficient quantity are very expensive.

As I said, I can understand your concerns; I think the Sorcerers are a fine line between balanced and too powerful. However, I do think they have several disadvantages to them; particularly with the amount of Psyker defence these days and how quickly a rhino could be taken out. I may limit their size or something however.
I must say, I'm unsure where you got your maths from, my simple maths puts them as killing about 1.7 termies in your above example:
- 9 Doombolt shots - 6 hit, 4 wound, 2.7 are saved from the 3++ which equals 1.3 dead TH/SS Termies.
- 2 Bolt of Change shots - 1.3' hit, 1.1' wound and only 0.4 unsave wounds are caused, totalling between 1 and 2 dead termies on average?
Against Tactical Marines this would still only be 5 dead marines I think...

This is all relying on them passing their tests and not suffering perils/nullification too.

Do you still worry about them now Psyko, considering what I've just described?

---

A new update will be coming soon I would expect...
Thanks! As ever, all feedback is welcome!

Spellbound wrote:And the prince is right alongside tervigons in points cost? Sure....but that tervigon can give itself FNP and has 6 wounds, not 4. I'm upset because after spending the points for upgrades I want [wings, mark, lash] I'm at 215 points, and if I wanted to take what I always wanted on my princes in the current codex [daemon weapon] I'm up at 270 points.....and I still die to a squad of bolters rapid-firing just like I did 115 points less before. It's absolutely ridiculous that such an important, expensive model should die so easily. If a wraithguard and Chaplain Cassius can be toughness 6, then so can a daemon prince, and they really need it [and no, I don't mean buy the mark of nurgle - that should make you T7, EXCEPTIONALLY tough, even immune to S3 weaponry]. In order to be survivable at that kind of cost, they've got to put bolters into the 6 to wound range and drop plasma and autocannons to the 3+ to wound range. Meltas and missles would still ruin their day, but that at least puts it in the hands of the player to "avoid those deadly things" as opposed to "just cross your fingers if you're in range of more than one unit of anything, because you're probably dead".

You're only looking at the Tervigon; not the others I mentioned.
Still, it still requires A LOT of Bolters to cause a wound and you can still purchase (albeit not cheap, but such upgrades shouldn't be) FNP or a 2+ armour save to protect against these small arms. Ultimately, it's still durable against small arms, however it's now more durable against the things that would reliably and regularly hit him; heavy weapons. As a Daemon Prince, what would you fear more? A squad of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers or a Squad of Grey Hunters?
Ultimately, I've toned the price down a bit, but a DP is still a very powerful character and something that allows this guy to double his speed (wings) has been increased in cost appropriately. For the kind of punch this guy can provide; he needs to have a weakness but remain powerful. He can still hide behind vehicles too as he doesn't have the size of a Dreadknight or Trygon. I can't make him too powerful/tough as he would be OP. He's not a glass hammer but for balance purposes he needs to avoid being too tough IMHO.
I did consider making them T6 instead of 4++, but ultimately that can arguably make them too tough and with a MoN he would be tougher than even an actual Great Unclean one. Heck, if you can provide a good enough reason to, I'll still make it T6, but as it stands, it's not happening.

Currently, in the edited version which I'm hoping to post soon, a winged Daemon Prince is 180pts. I don't know about you, but I'd still pay for that. Forget that it was 50pts cheaper before, but here and now, that still seems like a perfectly viable purchase to me at the very least.

As for the obliterators, it seems like they have to choose two weapons when they're purchased - no? That's not how it works? Then how are they different than currently? Choose two weapons a turn, it says. I see "turn" now and then I wonder.... why two weapons a turn? They can't fire two weapons, can they? If not, then it seems like they're exactly the same except for adding the warp cannon option - so why do they cost more? They became a ripoff when they went up by 5 points and lost all their resiliency in the change from last codex to this one, why have they gotten none of that back and gone up again in yours? I don't understand. Shouldn't those behemoths be as tough as a plaguemarine, at least?

Well I now realise I forgot to state they could fire 2 weapons, however even without this rule which will now be added, they are still more flexible that their current status.
As to costing more? Obliterators are easily the most competitive Heavy Support option in the Chaos Space Marine Codex; a 5pts increase each (which in itself is minor) represents this and makes them slightly less of an auto-take but represents their arguable position of superiority within that part of the FoC slot. Ultimately they are now slightly better than they were before too.

I really don't get how they are not as tough as a Plague Marine other than their toughness characteristic: they have twice as many wounds, a better armour save and an invulnerable save. Obliterators are more durable than Plague Marines. I can't think of a weapon that is more effective against Obliterators than against PM's.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Well, I'd be happy to help, Dave.

Well, one thing you could help with is... Do you still worry about the Sorcerers Warcoven being too god in light of my previous post?

Great! Glad to hear it went well man. Mind if I ask for more details and what your overall thoughts were on it?
Thanks a lot 'taco!

OK, cheers man. I look forward to the rest of your feedback! How did you find the Codex as a whole too btw?

Sharkvictim wrote:Based on the fluff you could give them an extra wound and it would be alright. I'm reading Battle of the Fang right now, and the rubric marines are badass in close combat, and current rules do not reflect that. The TS have the upperhand in cc because there is a sorcerer controlling them from the third person. Not only are they seeing the opponent, but they are seeing the rubric marine as well, and can arguably better asses the combat scenario on the fly. An extra would would make them more hearty, showing that they can go toe to toe with the best, or you can give them an extra attack, making them more lethal. An extra attack smacks of Khorne, so an extra wound seems more feasable. Most people will be loath to assault a troop unit with 2 wounds a piece, so this also would reflect how badass they are. Just an idea.

Just started reading that yesterday, so don't give me any story spoilers!
The problem with 2 wounds that I see is that it makes them arguably tougher than Plague Marines. How about making them S4(5), T4(5)?
Without grenades etc. they are not a good assault unit, however with S4(5), T4(5), I4 and the Sorcerer, they are a tough unit who would be able to hold their own if assaulted, although they would still have only 1 attack. They would still be definably more 'fragile' than Plague Marines however.
They'd be tough against shooting and assault, and be strong in assault, but more as a defensive, rather than offensive force.
Thoughts on making them S4(5), T4(5) instead?
As I said, I'm reluctant to make them 2 wounds however due to how strong this is for a troops choice and how it makes them arguably tougher than PM's.

Spellbound wrote:And honestly you're asking me which I fear more, a squad of grey hunters or the long fangs? probably the grey hunters. Long fangs will have 5 shots, 3 hit, all wound. Probably pass one of those saves, so they do 2 wounds. Squad of grey hunters has 2 meltaguns and 8 guys. They cost almost the same amount of points. That's 2 meltas that are likely to cause 2 wounds, but we'll say between the chance of missing and my invul save that they do 1. 16 bolter shots have a decent chance of doing 2 wounds after shots, saves, etc. come into play. Let's say they just shoot the pistols, though, which causes on average 1 wound. Then they charge. I'm going first, so my 4 attacks will kill 2-3. They are very likely then to get 2 wounds between the 21-24 attacks they have left. A basic squad like this is in most every army, and there's usually multiples of them. It's not hard for two to manage to get shots off. A prince really needs to be made to be more survivable. Hell that squad could have had plasmaguns and at the current way things are, would have killed him just by shooting without any hth needed.

I'm unsure where you're getting your maths from. My basic maths, suggests that:
2 Meltaguns - 1.33' hit, 1.1' wound, 0.55' wounds unsaved. (with Plasma Guns this is 1.1 unsaved - so he wouldn't be dead just from shooting.)
8 Boltguns - 10.6' hit, 3.5' wound, 1.18 wounds unsaved.
Total unsaved - 1.7.
In close combat:
30 attacks - 15 hit, 5 wound, 1.66' unsaved. No?

I could almost warrant your high cost if he was T6 base. As it is, though, not a chance. I grimace taking princes even now due to how ridiculously easy they are to kill. Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.

That strikes me as odd, as as it stands, Daemon Princes are considered a very good choice, rather than warranting 'grimace' or 'same steaming pile'...

---

I would like to discuss this civilly however, rather than throwing such terms about regarding the T6 on the DP; would you be wanting this on top of, or instead of the 4++?

iproxtaco wrote:Absolutely great. The best points are the Warband rules, Heretics, Gift of the Gods and Summoned Daemons. I play Word Bearers, very fluff oriented so all these additions means I can actually play my army how I want it. The Warband rules especially, allows me to field a Dark Apostle. Gift of The Gods was hilariously fun to use, especially when you have 3 out 5 terminators turn to spawn in a game. Not to worry though, I use Terminators in all my lists and it only happened one other time out of the 5 games (IIRC) I played. It performed really well. I'm an average commander, but I found the codex very easy to read and understand which actually made me half decent which is a testament to the effort and quality put in to the book. My opposition agrees however, that it isn't over-powered, just very good, like Dark Eldar levels of good on the table, which is competitive but not absolute top and therefore not subject to ridicule like SW or IG. With a little bit of discussion I should be able to post a battle report, my Word Bearers against Orks, and also a detailed explanation of what some people spotted as being a bit iffy.

Great! I'm glad it seemed to go so well; I'm also really glad you enjoyed Gift of the Gods! It's almost certainly my favourite piece of wargear; you could have a character with 2+3++ re-rollable, or your 180pts character could get turned into a Chaos Spawn! I like the variety of things you used too; thematic and broad to help me!
Thankfully, that's the kind of power-level I was aiming for; 5th edition powerful (as any 5th edition Codex should be), but not over-powered. Basically how I'd hope the CSM Codex to be.
I really appreciate the feedback man; seriously. Thanks a lot man!
Of course, I also look forward to the later feedback, particularly hopefully working out any kinks. I look forward to a potential battle-report of sorts too.
Thanks again man, it's really helpful. Thank your friends for me too!

Spellbound wrote:For your price, definitely on top of.

And no, princes aren't considered good now. They're considered better than overpriced sorcerers and weak, emo wrist-cutting chaos lords. I honestly liked the old mastery rules, if you kill anyone make a leadership test and if failed take a wound with no saves. They didn't give plus d6 attacks back then though. I'm fine with taking a wound, but all these extra penalties just feels like chaos gets kicked while it's down. Can't the penalty be, after losing a wound of course, that you only got one extra attack?

Hell I just wish they'd copy/paste the old chaos lord entry and put it in the next codex. Perfect customizability back then.

uhuh.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Can I just suggest one thing? I like everything in the codex except this.

What about adding a Unit equivalent to "Chaos Venerable Dreadnought"? Lose the crazed rule, and gain a BS and a WS for maybe.... 70 points? I would pay a lot to have a great gun-tote like a venerable in my chaos army. It could be an elites, or maybe even an HQ choice.

Well, that's not in the Codex, so you like everything in the Codex.
I did consider that before, but I was unsure how to include it without creating another unit choice...
I assume with what you're suggesting you also meant the 'venerable' rule? I'm currently also looking into an upgrade that could make them a Heavy Support choice, as suggested by someone else. The easiest way would be to make Dreads a heavy support choice normally then have a separate unit like the one you describe as the elites choice - however the HS slot is pretty well accounted for as it is!
I may make the removal of crazed and adding the venerable rule as the MoCU additions, rather than the current.
What I'm currently thinking is an upgrade which makes the front armour 13 and the Dread a Heavy Support choice. (15-20pts-ish?) Then the MoN would either make the front armour 14, or - more likely - confer a rule akin to venerable?
I guess I could make a similar option to removed crazed and improve BS/WS and maybe add venerable, probably around 25-30pts for that, 60 with venerable...

Thoughts?

Tyranic Marta wrote:I like the idea of having a dread HQ, would field it like every game

maybe ws6, bs5, s6(10), F12, S12, R10, (To represent having a highly defended HQ,

Equipped with a dreadnought close combat weapon, incorporating a twin linked bolter, and a heavy bolter? on the other arm.

May take some different gun choices, (Multimelta, Reaper autocannon, Plasmacannon TL lascannon.) and a DCCW incorporating a twin linked bolter

may exhange one or both twin linked bolter(s) for a heavy flamer for 5points each

give him some upgrades from the codex that make sense and Voila

may also be an idea to allow him to be upgraded to a Venerable sorceror exchanging one of the DCCW for a Dread close combat force weapon and some psker powers

and be given some

Honestly, it's highly unlikely I will include a HQ dreadnought option; I don't see the reasoning for it within the background; they can be used as sages, sources of advice and wisdom etc. but I've not heard of them being warband leaders except for the case of an Ironwarrior commander. In the vast majority of cases, they would be more suited for the elite role, or an almost venerable status like I'm working on, but I really don't see the reason for a HQ choice like that; for one thing they're unlikely to be too effective in-game although of course that's something that can be worked on.
Ultimately, you could just counts-as with a DP if you really wanted to.
I may consider it as a special character, but I highly doubt I'll make it a HQ choice tbh.

Spellbound wrote:Make it armor 13 like a furioso and we'd be good to go.

And hey, I get it. You want daemon princes to be super expensive "just for fun" choices just like flyrants. Fine. Just make sure the options for lords are amazing then, because princes will be a thing of the past.

No, I'm currently considering changing the Daemon Prince to T6 and whatnot.
What I don't care for however is you constantly throwing phrases around like "slow as molasses scrub.", "Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.", "emo wrist-cutting chaos lords" etc. what I'm looking for is constructive feedback, not exaggerated vitriol tbh.
I appreciate some of the feedback you've provided; helped me identify mistakes such as the Oblits, Marks etc. but the above kind of comments just frustrate me tbh.
I understand you feel DP's should either cost less or be more survivable, that's all you needed to say.

OK, how's about this (attached) for the 'venerable' dreadnought?
It's not final yet, the name at the very least is pending. If it does go in it'll probably look something like that however. I admit, I'm not too sold on it yet however.

I'll also probably be adding a rule whereby if "Dreadnought has replaced its Close Combat Weapon with a Twin-linked Autocannon or a Missile Launcher then it may instead be taken as a Heavy Support Choice" - but this would not apply to the Grand Dreadnought as they are, of course, Elites.

I'll likely be changing the Daemon Prince to T6, but taking it's save down to 3+5++ again, with the Daemonic Protection gift available to improve it to 4++. This decision was influenced in no small part by the comments by Mannahnin here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/330496.page#2180581
It's cost will probably remain the same.

Thoughts?

woodbok wrote:I like the codex, But I've got confused by something. On the predator profile, it says"Hellcannon". On the summery, it says"hellfire". Was this a typo?

Whoops. Yep, that's a typo: they're both the same Str6, AP3 weapon; I'll fix that now. Thanks!

Praxiss wrote:i quite like the Grand Dread rules. One query. You mention that it can't cast a psyker power if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed table, but then the Crazed rule isn't mention in the profile.

Is this a typo or is it just assumed that all Chaos Dreads are subject to the Crazed rule?

Whoops. Yep, that's another typo; it's a result of C&P'ing the Dreadnought page. Good catch!

iproxtaco wrote:Love the Grand dreadnought, definitely makes me want to pick up a few FW dreads. Working on that Battle Report and just need some people to get back to me about their problems, should have both sometime early next week.

Cheers man. Thanks for the update too, I look forward to it!

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Praxiss wrote:i quite like the Grand Dread rules. One query. You mention that it can't cast a psyker power if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed table, but then the Crazed rule isn't mention in the profile.

Is this a typo or is it just assumed that all Chaos Dreads are subject to the Crazed rule?

My exact thoughts as well. Aside from that, I like it immeasurably! One thing I noticed...

MON is pretty underwhelming. HBs usually always wound on a 3+ (against marines) anyway, and against guard, tau, DE, etc, it would be a serious handicap (although a smart player wouldn't even take a HB against those armies )


Seems fantastic, although the name is a bit blase Maybe "INCORRIGIBLE DREADNOUGHT", or "IRREDEEMABLE DREADNOUGHT" Something Brutal, yet witty

glad you like it; judging from the feedback it'll probably go in the 'dex in this case.

I'll change the Heavy Bolter then; maybe 2+ or remove that part of the rule altogether...

I'm not sold on the name either tbh, but I'm not really sold on the ones you suggested either!
Cheers Samus!

Hawk wrote:Im not a fan of the All is dust rule for the 1k sons. I like the 4+ invuln much better. Other than that its pretty cool.

Cheers. The problem is with the current all is dust (4++) is that it doesn't make them any tougher against Small Arms fire, against which they are supposed to be extremely resilient; combine this with the fact they cost almost 50% more than an average Space Marine and it's a problem IMHO.

Sharkvictim wrote:The argument could be made that the Thousand Sons simply need a +3 invul.
How is it that the Chosen Space Marines of the psyker god can't get a +3, but a storm shield can?
Add onto that that 1k Sons can't get storm shields (or anyone in Chaos for that matter) and it seems kind of silly.
A +3 invul would make them significantly harder to kill, and not make them seems plaguey.

As I said to Hawk, 3++ doesn't make them any tougher against small arms fire which is supposed to be incredibly ineffective against TS. Similarly, combine this with their cost and it doesn't bode well IMHO.
As to the Storm Shield vs. Tzeentch; I think the storm shield manages it on account of being a large, reliable piece of technology...

----------

Any name suggestions for the 'Venerable Dreadnought'? I know I'm not sold on Grand Dreadnought. Other consideration I had were:
- Lord Dreadnought
- Arch-Dreadnought
- Dreadnought Magnate (probably my personal favourite)

Thoughts?

I'd say it's more akin to the Venerable Dreadnought, than the Furioso, the former of which it's the same price as. The way I priced it (roughly) was:
+15pts for WS5, BS5 (could argue it's 10pts worthy, in which case I'll drop it down)
+10pts for removal of crazed
+25-30pts for Unyielding (lets say it's 5pts a turn).

I'll probably drop it down to 160 however, assuming it goes in the Codex.

I figured Unyielding is probably on par with Venerable, however in regards to smaller point games, hopefully it's balanced by the number of points spent on such a model alongside it being less durable than a Land Raider, which are also high risk/reward at such points?

Praxiss wrote:For MON on the Grand Dread, why not have it so MON makes all bolter ammo poisoned (3+). That way you can take the Heavy Boltr for weight of fire, but you also know that your lowly TL bolter can wound anything as well.

It might also make more people think about taking the HB when they play armies like Nids with high T models. As it is right now i dont think many people take the B option on dread. I know I never do.

I'm liking that idea Praxiss.

iproxtaco wrote:I dunno if this has been raised or not, but do the bonuses given to Lesser and Greater Daemons through Marks give them the same profile as those in the Daemons of Chaos codex? If so, fantastic, as I didn't think to check before now, if not, did you consider just putting the rules for Bloodletter etc.. in the codex? Also, what about drop-pods?

Nope, they give the bonuses described in (my) the Codex, regarding a copy and paste from the Daemons Codex, I didn't do this for multiple reasons:
- In their Codex, they are more balanced in that they have to weather a turn of enemy fire upon arrival; with the summoning methods here this wouldn't be the case and therefore you could easily have a large mob of power-weapon toting Bloodletters appear in your face and assault into your lines unharmed.
- The Daemons Codex is their Codex; in a way it would be stealing their thunder per se.
- Greater Daemons have a similar balancing factor above, add to that they have wings and that too is a problem; one of the balancing factors for existing Greater Daemons is their lack of manoeuvrability, take this away and add in the summoning rules...

I also didn't represent Dread Claws as a passenger-killing, rare, target-killing, then taker-offering transport is pretty damn difficult to represent in game IMHO. If I were to make it a normal Drop-pod, then it's just the same as the SM 'pod which again is stealing their thunder per se. and isn't too original IMHO.

----

Currently working on the update for the next version. After 'taco's feedback, that may be the final version methinks.

Both of those are pretty much already the case;
Daemon Princes with MoK cannot take Psychic Powers and if a Psychic Power is rolled on Gift of the Gods then it's +1 strength instead. This means that models in a World Eaters warband can only be a psyker if unmarked.

If you look at the TS warband entry, their special rule upgrade is Sorcerer Lord, effectively providing Guide.

Cheers!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Fair enough, but I am glad that Daemons are field-able in a better way than before, it's very pleasing fluff-wise for me.

I hope to get the report and niggles presented clearly by Wednesday at the latest, some of the guys are pretty slow, and I don't like to pester them at all, lest I incur the ire of the neckbeard overlords.

Particularly as a Word Bearers played I'd imagine!

That's fine man, I'm not trying to rush you, just stating my intentions. As I've said, the feedback is appreciated fullstop.

Plague Zombies will not be going in the Codex. Apologies, but they would be a 0-1 choice for a single warband, alongside (arguably) gimmicky rules and competitiveness, as well as being uncommon in fluff, they would most likely be a rare unit who I'd rather not give up another army list slot for.
Furthermore, I now struggle to see what Plague Zombies would add to the army; Death Guard don't exactly need more anti-infantry, whilst you could just get scoring (and potentially Anti-tank) heretics for a similar cost, or more durable and powerful Lesser Daemons who can also score.
As I said, Plague Zombies will not be put back into the Codex.

woodbok wrote:Also, Sorry to re-post, but can you answer my earlier question? Quoted here for reference.

Woodbok wrote:Also, does the Rhino have fire points? Or was that deliberately left out so you had to buy Open-Topped?

No worries, man, the re-post is absolutely fine and I REALLY appreciate the feedback, thanks.
I was going to answer it by correcting it in the next PDF update (maybe tomorrow) but basically, yeah, that was an omission/mistake and has been corrected to 2 fire points.
Thanks!

iproxtaco wrote:What about the Dread Claw, could it be workable?

I think it could be barely workable, but even so, it's a tricky implementation, would require an additional model and has it's own fluff issues (such as it's rate of appearance). I'll think about it man, but I wouldn't hold your breath!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:And mine if you can, its not important though.
From a personal view, was there a reason that certain warband rules like Dark Apostle, Chaos Master aren't applicable to Sorcerers? I see that Icon of the TS makes a Sorcerer a Lord, but I would have preferred to put my Icon rule on a terminator sorcerer from a fluff perspective. Sorry if I'm reading it wrong.

No, you're reading it right. My thinking was that Sorcerers aren't typically the head honcho of a warband as it were (except for the exception, TS), whilst they are obviously a solid in-game choice, it would enable more reason for Lords and the like.
Partially, it's my personal point of view, but also I think it's somewhat justified and shouldn't make a huge impact on gameplay.
Thanks again for the feedback 'taco.

woodbok wrote:I used this list today, And obviously it's really fluffy.

------

The amount of fire power this list can produce is Quite high, and performs Admirably in combat as well. The lord goes with raptors, and they counter assault anything that gets near noise marines.

You say you used this list already? How did you find it was? The list and Codex, that is...
I imagine you'll do pretty well considering the W/L ratio in your sig!

Toastedandy wrote:

Shame tbh, I'll prob still use this codex, and use zombies for freindly games, they would be fun, but wether they will be competitive or useless, ill have to play test them. Speaking of which, I got a box of choas havoks unopened and 30 pirate zombies un made from the market for 4 euro. Sorted

4 euros?! Is that all?! Damn.

Obviously you're welcome to use the list man and if you play with it then obviously it's a friendly game, so ofc you could use Plague Zombies if you want to! Cheers man.

Slayersan wrote: So I just finished playing a match verse my friend who was using this fandex. I found it and liked how it was so i gave it to my friend to play. He moans so much about his current chaos codex as he should. He took a bunch of noise marines/defiler/bassilisk and 2 demon princes in a 1500 pt list. It was mostly balanced, my one issue was with the demon princes. Ive read most of this thread on how people compare the demon prince to simliar creatures and they generally seem to want him to be even stronger. His demon princes were setup with the following: wings/ demon weapon(mark of slannesh) /Mark of slannesh/ demonic speed/ Psyker(warp time) for I beieve thats 285 pts. now I understand this is alot of points and he should be good, my issue is I think this is too good. I was a GK purifier type army and to be fair, not a fully optimal list so far. We also played dawn of war and he got to setup first which boxed me on my side and made his demon princes very close to me.

A demon prince with this setup has a threat range of 18 inches and on average 8 attacks on the charge, init 7 means he will go first and warp time means he'll generally get between 6-7 wounds to land. By himself he can easily wipe almost full squads with no chance to really harm him back in asault. Yes you can shoot him before he gets there but hes small enough to hide behind vehicles that move flat out. For his points I think he is a combination of too fast and too killy while being pretty durable. Im not sure what I would change but the combination of the daemon weapon and warp time is just too many attacks.

Thanks A LOT for the feedback man and the compliments regarding the 'dex itself.
Are you saying both DP's were set-up in that way? Because that's over 500pts right there; of a 1500pts army! I can understand your disliking it, seriously, that's a powerful combination (bet you love your friend now! ), but then again, as you said, that's A LOT of points. More expensive than even the Swarmlord or Mephiston!
Ultimately, this guy still only has a 5++ (now), so heavy weapons should tear through him, as could many tougher assault units, such as TH/SS termies, beast-packs etc. whilst at 285pts each, their shouldn't be a vast number of other models to help saturation from being targeted in such a manner.
Similarly, the DW can also wound the prince 1/6 times, as well as PotW potentially self-harming him...

He's clearly very deadly, but he's also expensive and flawed.
I'm not sure how bad the situation really is to be honest, however you have clearly provided a genuine and worthy concern, so I'm wondering how it could be balanced.
Possibly a Daemon Weapon could be so the player could not take it alongside a gift of chaos? Admittedly, it wouldn't solve the problem of Psychic Powers & the DW, but it would help lower his damage potential? Particularly charging into cover?

Thanks again for the feedback and play-testing man, I appreciate it!

Toastedandy wrote:I'm going to be testing this list on the weekend against a all World Eaters list, Its going to get bloody

HQ
Chaos Lord........................................................................145
Icon of the renegade - Pair of lightning claws - Unholy Might

Greater Daemon of Khorne..........................................................175

Elites
Chaos Chosen......................................................................197
6 Chosen - 1 w/Pair of Lightning claws - 2 w/ power weapons - 2 w/flamers

Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................145
Pair of CC weapons - Heavy flamer - MOK

Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................120
Helfire Cannon - Heavy flamer


Troops
Chaos Space Marines...............................................................190
10 Marines - 2 w/Plasmaguns - Campion

Heretics..........................................................................150
10 Heretics - 2 w/plasmaguns - Champion w/Powerfist - MOK

Heretics..........................................................................150
10 Heretics - 2 w/plasmaguns - Champion w/Powerfist - MOK

Lesser Daemons of Khorne..........................................................110
10 Bloodletters


Heavy Support
Havoc Squad.......................................................................120
5 Havocs - Plasmacannon - Multimelta - Autocannon

1502 points

Great! Good luck man; I look forward to hearing how it goes! Gonna be messy.

2 pointers though:
- Bloodletters (Lesser Daemons with MoK) are 16pts each (they can't have warband Icons and therefore don't gain the -5pts mark cost - I'll clarify this in the PDF.
- You don't actually appear to have a method of summoning the Bloodletters (no icons)...

Good luck man, please provide feedback if you can!

Spellbound wrote:Now, as for the dreadclaw...

A few problems I have with this idea is that A) it's not actually a walker, B) it doesn't represent it's danger to its occupants and C) doesn't represent the rarity of the thing (i.e. Renegades at least shouldn't be able to use it, rare within Legions etc.).
Amongst other, these are some of the reasons that the Dreadclaw isn't included in the fandex and I don't see it being so...

ZephyrRey wrote:I don't really agree with the ap- value on sonic weaponry. With they way it works in fluff of any kind, it really should have at least the ap5 that bolters do, especially to justify it as the 'anti horde' cult troop option.
Granted, I know that fluff can't be the biggest thing in codices, that isn't how it works, I'd still like to see some kind of ap value on sonic weaponry, otherwise they get the short end of the stick

I think realistically, the Sonic Weaponry should be something like AP2, as it largely appears to bypass armour and mess with the targets innards. The Sonic Weapons are - as you identified - intended for anti-horde, which they should still excel at. I'll do some basic math-hammer as to it's potential against MeQs & GeQ's Vs. existing sonic weaponry and boltguns.

My reasoning behind the AP- was to balance with its RoF, and how it can put out twice as many shots as the Boltgun and fire it's full range at all times.
Now for the maths; if this turns out to make the current weapons look bad, I'll change it.

(10 guns) Vs. MeQ (Heavy variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 4.44 (unsaved) wounds
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 3.33 (unsaved) wounds
Boltgun - 1.11 (unsaved) wounds

(10 guns) Vs. MeQ (Assault variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 6.66)
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 5.55)
Boltgun - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 3.33)

(10 guns) Vs. GeQ (Heavy variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 11.85 (unsaved) wounds
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 13.33 (unsaved) wounds
Boltgun - 4.44 (unsaved) wounds

(10 guns) Vs. GeQ (Assault variant):

Dave Sonic Blaster - 5.92 (unsaved) wounds (total - 17.77)
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 8.88 (unsaved) wounds (total - 22.11)
Boltgun - 8.88 (unsaved) wounds (total - 13.22)

----

Judging from feedback then, it does appear that the Sonic Blaster does need a boost.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does pose a question regarding the Blast Master however, as I'm reluctant for it to be twice as good against vehicles and MeQ's. Chances are it'll be:
- Assault 4 - Str6, AP5
- Heavy 5 - Str6, AP4

Better than it currently is against standard infantry, but worse against vehicles. Flexibility wise, I'm sure many will complain, but then again, it's still capable of taking out light vehicles and frankly Sonic Weaponry should excel against infantry even at the cost of anti-armour.

LATEST VERSION OF THE PDF IS UP!

Didn't think I had forgotten had you?
Just been (and still am) busy.

Notable changes:
- Daemon Princes replace T5/4++ with T6/5++
- Lord Vahlinhurst Fluff added
- Sonic Weaponry Changed
- Grand Dreadnought renamed Chaos Dreadnought Magnate
- Daemonic Steeds improved and points increased.


As ever, all feedback is welcome. Please play using this Codex and spread the word!

Thanks, Dave.



----

Regarding Dreadclaws, I sincerely doubt I'll include them after thinking about it. As I've said before; they're described as drop-pods that possess high-strength weaponry on the base, primarily used for boarding operations, can take off after landing, have been discontinued, have errant machine spirits that can cause the death of their passengers. Because of these things, representing them is tricky.
If I were to include them they would probably be along these lines however:
- AV12 all round. Fast Skimmer, Equipped with Deathwing Missile Launcher.
- May transport up to 10 models in power armour. Models in Terminator Armour count as 2 models, Chaos Spawn count as 3.
- Must arrive via deepstrike. When it arrives, roll 2D6 for scatter as normal. Place a Large Blaster Marker where the Dreadclaw will land, any models under this suffer a Str8, AP1 strike, if there are no models remaining after this then the Dreadclaw lands as normal, if there are then it counts as a deep-strike mishap.
- Roll a D6 for each Dreadclaw, on a role of 1 then the Dreadclaw scatters 2D6 inches without the above (blast) attack and the contents of the Dreadclaw suffer 2D6 Str7, AP2 attacks.
- Probably around 45-50pts: high-risk, high-reward strategy potentially.

As I said however, it's an unwieldy method that if it sticks to the fluff - which it should - would be unlikely to be used. Therefore I'm unlikely to include it.,

You probably looked at it before I had the time to update the OP - you're looking for V2.1!

Well the chances are it's not being included anyway Samus, so it needn't be worried about!

ZephyrRey wrote:A quick question, why may Sorcerers not take the special ability conferred by the warband option? Especially for thousand sons this seems odd- I can make a Lord or a Champion into a 'Sorcerer Lord' even though he doesn't have any psychic powers, yet I can't make a Sorcerer into said Sorcerer Lord?

Was this just an oversight, or is there reasoning behind it?

Nope, this wasn't an oversight. I answered this before saying "My thinking was that Sorcerers aren't typically the head honcho of a warband as it were (except for the exception, TS), whilst they are obviously a solid in-game choice, it would enable more reason for Lords and the like.
Partially, it's my personal point of view, but also I think it's somewhat justified and shouldn't make a huge impact on gameplay."
I for example don't imagine a Sorcerer leading a Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Night Lords etc. Warband, rather than being the 2nd in command or so. Similar circumstances can be seen by the roles played by Sorcerers in the fluff in that most of the fluff I've heard of has them as being subordinate to someone else.

Aside from that one concern (primarily because my friend and I are going to try a game against each other) here is a list I have written up for this game.

Now, I'm not looking forward to this at all, as I know I am going to be defeated fairly handily, because he plays thousand sons, he plays them well, and it's a shitstorm against MeQs. Especially with this psyker coven thing, which he is far too pleased about

Anyway, here is my Warband of the Night Lords list
HQ
Lord
Dual Lightning Claws, Doom Siren, Jump Pack, Mark of Slaanesh, Shadowlord 200 points

Daemon Prince
Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Psyker (Lash) 210 points

Troops
10 Raptors
2 Meltaguns, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Fist 255 points

10 Raptors
1 Meltagun, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Fist 245 points

10 Raptors
1 Meltagun, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Lightning Claws 245 points

10 Noise Marines
Champ w/ Power Weapon / Doomsiren, Blastmaster 285 points
Rhino, Dirge Caster 45 points

5 Marines
Champ (free) 75 points
Rhino, Dirge Caster 45 points

Heavy Support

Land Raider
Dirge Caster 245 points

Predator
Lascannon Turret, Lascannon Sponsons 150 points

If I have my math right, that's exactly 2000 points.
Now, This is a take all comers list that is going to get it's face handed to it when it plays against the aforementioned Thousand Sons list.
5 man squad is for camping an objective, rhinos can run around making nuisances of themselves by forcing leaderships at -2 (and hopefully in range of ShadowLord) whilst the noise marines cause havoc in the Land Raider.
All and all I tried to make a very fluffy list, which I am so glad I can do now, kudos, JD, I am very pleased with this list. It's just that I'm making an all comers list against an army that is fairly tailored to MeQ...
So keep an eye out for that incoming Batrep, I'll link it from here, and in the batrep i'll link to here.

GREAT!

Thanks man, I really look forward to seeing how it goes and what can be learnt from it. I really hope you enjoy it and I'm glad you can make your almost ideal list. Good luck man.

You'll be at a slight disadvantage in that they don't really worry about Leadership tests either!

Try to place your models so that they only need to face one round of shooting from the rubricae and bear in mind that being TS he'll either have few vehicles; meaning they can be taken out easier, or he'll have no vehicles meaning you can focus weapons that ignore all is dust against him.

Tbh, I have/am trying to think of a way to make it so TS aren't so specifically good against MeQ and short of a Psybolt rip-off I can't think of too much atm. Maybe making all armour saves +1 (2+ = 3+ etc.) however...

I really really look forward to hearing about it, thanks man.

ZephyrRey wrote:Well, I might have considered taking a winged sorc of slaanesh with warptime instead of the lord, as WT is basically better lightning claws ( I would have used him as a counts as lord ) but I can't. In all honesty, if you cant use a sorc I don't think the champ should be able to get the upgrade either; denies these special rules in low points games, as a small skirmish force isn't lead by one of those 'leaders'

For the purpose of this game I'll probably let him make his sorc the sorc lord if he wants to, if you don't mind.

Well if he's using the TS Warband Rules, then Sorcerers can become a Sorcerer Lord anyway - that bit wasn't an oversight!
You raise a good point of the Champs vs. Sorcerers however, tbh I've been considering removing Champions all-together.

I would point out that you could still have the Shadow Lord on your Prince and get a Sorcerer.
If I were you, I would've gone for the Sorcerer for the additional Psychic Deterrent alongside the Lord or Prince...

Also, I wouldn't really change the Ksons, save maybe the asp sorc gets the 4+ instead of the 5+ he has now. They pay their premium for being good against mech, and he doesn't have to take all rubrics, he can use normal marines too, so if he goes all out against MeQ it's his own choice in losing effectiveness against GeQ and the like.
(we've been discussing this a lot, actually, as he and I are playing in a team tourny this weekend. Lol)

Ha! Well you should know in that case.
That's a good point. I'm gonna do the math on the +1 to armour save change, but it's likely to stay as it is.

Thanks again for the feedback.

ZephyrRey wrote:I know my friend's rolling. He'll never perils except for on a snakeyes. so no point running the sorc when i can run a better, more fire taking prince, that matches my fluff more anyway (my made up sorc character, or the actual dp character kreig acerbus) I like my fluff

Really wish i could use this codex in this team tourny...

Also, this is the entry for the TS lord:

A single Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord or Chaos Champion may select the Sorcerer Lord special rule for 30pts, conferring the following effect:
so no, he cant take a sorc with sorc lord :/

Crud. It at least is supposed to say Sorcerer there for the TS too; so yeah he can! I'll change that now, good spot man.

iproxtaco wrote:Sorry Dave, I promised a Battle Report soonish, but there were a few problems regarding the lists used and what actually happened, and for some reason the pictures were all pixelated. That said, it's being worked on, I hope it provides some feedback when its finished.

That's OK. I'd rather not have to wait as you can imagine, but feedback is feedback so it'll be worth it I hope! Cheers man.

------

What do people think of the idea of dropping Champions altogether?

Also, here's a Daemonbomb list under my Codex:

- HQ - Daemon Prince - Icon of the Word Bearers - Wings, Mark of Tzeentch (Bolt of Change) - 205pts

- HQ - Greater Daemon - 125pts

- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 220pts
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon & Personal Icon

- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 220pts
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon & Personal Icon

- Troops - 8 Lesser Daemons - Mark of Khorne - 128pts

- Troops - 8 Lesser Daemons - Mark of Khorne - 128pts

- Fast Attack - 7 Chaos Bikers - 2 Meltaguns, Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon & Personal Icon - 232pts

- Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Lascannon Sponsons - 120pts

- Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Lascannon Sponsons - 120pts

1498ts



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Also it seems Forgeworld have been kind enough to make a model for the Dreadnought Magnate
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/CONTEMPTOR_PATTERN_DREADNOUGHT_BODY.html

ZephyrRey wrote:everyone is going gaga over that contemptor. I mean, he's cool and all, but i would rather have this, personally.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/DREADNOUGHTS/NIGHT-LORDS-DREADNOUGHT.html
Maybe I'm biased though.

I guess you could be biased... Maybe...

Personally, I think the Iron Warriors or Death Guard have the best looking Dread's of the lot, Alpha Legion a close 3rd for me though. GW really needs to make a plastic Chaos Dread kit and IMHO these rules would really support it.

Also, based on how I see the rules here, dont the CSM squads in that list have to have at least IoCG for them to be able to summon the daemons?
'Daemons with any mark (rather than just the same) may be summoned by a model with a Mark of Chaos Undivided'
This and this:
'Daemons can only be summoned (or possess) by a model bearing the same Mark of Chaos as the Daemon, however Daemons without a Mark of Chaos may be summoned by any Personal Icon.'

This makes me believe that (as word bearers) you at least need IoCG in those csm squads if they want to be able to summon those knornate LDs.

You know... You're absolutely right! Who's frickin' Codex is this?!

On a side note, I read through your Primarchs ranking, and I could not like it more, unless you put Konrad up one more slot Nice to see that someone else knows how badass we are...

Here's a present for you, dave:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/380728.page#3027386

Overall I'm really happy with how the codex performed. I think that No Mercy! finally gave the MoS (and noise marines) the extra little buff they needed to keep up with the other cult troops / icons.

As a last note, I have challenged my brother to make a 2k GK list to play against this one. So batrep#2 to come once that game ends.

Cracking!
Thanks a lot man; great to have a battle report for the Codex. Good to see it performed well, but not too well. Great report man. Seriously, thanks. I wonder how things may have changed had they been hammernators in that Redeemer and/or it didn't immobilise itself.
Great game man, thanks A LOT.

alabamaheretic wrote:Just skimmed over it pretty damn good, never knew what cypher did adding him gave me an insight. Might actually have to play test with this with a freind of mine to see how the rules go (love the word bearers warband idea) any rate love it and def gonna use it in friendly games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh yea who is that matt guy that every one bitches about and compares to c.s. goto? have only been playing 40k for two years sorry if i am kinda a newb.

Cheers man, glad you like it. Be sure to tell me how your game(s) go if you do, thanks man.

Mat Ward is a games/codex/army book writer for GW; he's well known (and hated by the community) for making rather OTT fluff and in-game rules, which comes across as very immature, although it must be said that his Codices are largely pretty balanced. Lets not start discussing Mr Ward though, eh?

ZephyrRey wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/380984.page#3032107 Here's another one, dave. Sadly, I got ended by Draigo and my own inexperience with the GK codex.
Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying the codex, as the rhino's with Dirge Casters were pretty much the most effective thing in my entire list.

Another? Crackin' man. Cheers!
Seemed like a good battle again; I think that the Grey Knights were always going to be a problem with power weapons all round so I can't say I'm too surprised at the result; particularly with how quickly the pali's got into close combat.
Would you say the Dirge Casters were effective or too effective? Bearing in mind Purifiers are actually fearless...

alabamaheretic wrote:ok fair enough, didnt realize he was that much of a pain in the ass. will do on the game though. cuase the word bearers are gonna kick some ass! oh ya~!

It's OK, it's simply that discussions about him usually lead to aggression and the thread being locked...

----

Couple of changes I intend to make:

- Khorne Bezerkers & Noise Marines are to go up to 23pts. This is for several reasons:

Noise Marines got AP5.
Bring in line with the other cult troops, whilst not making them an auto-take over CSMs.
Khorne Bezerkers will get Counter-Charge
Noise Marines will get Acute Senses

Thoughts?

This is part of my intentions to make all Cult Troops 23pts; alongside being (typically) 0-1, the player wouldn't be discouraged from taking your 'average' CSM, who has many benefits in themselves. The standard CSM is almost on par with Grey Hunters who are widely regarded as arguably the best troop choice in the game. The Cult Units fill specialist roles and they pay for this; the standard CSM is much more versatile and much cheaper.
10 Chaos Space Marines, with a Rhino, 2 meltaguns and MoCU is 210pts. However, this is even less so for Black Legion & Iron Warriors, whilst the Word Bearers would get a Champion for free and greater use out of MoCU.
8 Khorne Bezerkers, with open-topped rhino, skull champion with powerfist tops 240pts. They're a much more specialist unit that whist very hard hitting would struggle to fill the roles that the standard CSM can; holding objectives, anti-tank, support etc.

I'd actually argue the unmarked Legions to be amongst the better warband choices due to how they can help trim those extra points elsewhere and round out the list, rather than reducing the overall number of bodies like masses of cult units can.

I'm really quite content with the existing CSM's due to the roles they fulfill within the army; be it support, capture and control, anti-tank, summoning, extra bodies, cheap... you name it.

Whilst obviously I've tried to make Cult Units better than their current incarnation and their CSM counterparts, I still think CSM's form the whole of most forces, as Taco' and Rey seem to also think. If I had Grey Hunters and Grey Knight Strike Squads in the same army, I'd most likely take the Grey Hunters in most cases.
Plague Marines are durable, Khorne Bezerkers rule in close combat, Thousand Sons are hard-hitting and tough and Noise Marines are excellent anti-infantry, but the Chaos Space Marines can do all of this (albeit to a lesser extent) for less.

---

So people are OK with the idea regarding increasing each to 23pts with their relative bonuses?
Regarding who I'd rather see out of TS and WE, I'd probably have to say World Eaters as Rey's intending to cover TS. Although I would wonder if your concerns about the Coven rings true...

Thanks for the feedback and discussion guys!

Latest Version of the PDF is up.

Updates include:
- Khorne Bezerkers - Cost 23pts and gain Counter-attack.
- Noise Marines - Cost 23pts and gain Night Vision. Blast Masters cost 30pts.
- Chaos Champion removed.
- Warband specific rules (e.g. Dark Apostle, Shadowlord, Chaos Master etc.) available on any unnamed HQ choice (i.e. Sorcerers).
- I think that's about it.

As ever, all feedback is welcome. Thanks guys!

Praxiss wrote:Still loving the codex dave, hopign to play test it in the next few weeks.

One small quibble, more a personal gripe than anything else.

I'm tryign to write a nice fluffy IW list (much easier now that i can field bassies and an ACTUAL Warsmith BTW). It would be nice if there was an option for a Lord to have some sort of long range weapon.

My reasoning being that i see a Warsmith as someone who would be at the back directing the battle and taking shots with something nasty. For example. I played an apoc game and my "Warsmith" was a MoTF on a bike with a conversion beamer. Very fluffy as he dashed around fixing immobilised tanks and firing of S10 Ap1 small blastt shots from the Beamer. Great fun.

I have managed to point up a half-decent Warsmith who is nicely tough but he is just lacking the long range punch.

Maybe an option to let a Chaos Lord (or Termie Lord) carry a Warp Cannon or something? I woudl say make a long range option an add-on for Warsmith (example: Conversion Beamer/Warp Cannon/some new gun for 20 points) but then that's robbing other warbands of the option as well.






Just playing around: Iron Warriors Anti-Tank Spam list


HQ:
Chaos Lord - Icon of the Iron Warriors, Warsmith, Chaos Armour, Daemonic Toughness, Daemon Weapon (a hammer, obviously)

TROOPS:
8 Berzerkers - Rhino (Open Topped)
10 CSM - 2 meltas, Rhino (Combi melta)
10 CSM - 2 meltas, Rhino (Combi melta)
10 CSM - 2 meltas, Rhino (Combi melta)

ELITES:
Dreadnought - Siege Hammer, MoN

HEAVY SUPPORT:
5 Havocs - 4 Lascannons
5 Havocs - 4 Lascannons
Basilisk

1499 points




Can the Warsmith ride with the 'Zerkers?

Cheers man, appreciate the compliment and I hope you do get round to (and enjoy) playtesting it!
Solid list too.

Regarding the Heavy Weapon for the Lord; it's an idea and does have potential but personally I'm not sold on it tbh. I'd imagine a Warsmith (like any Chaos leader really) would be at the front; smashing the opponents face in with a power/chain fist and whacking great hammer; Storm of Iron (which I'm sure you've read) seems to support this IMHO. For ranged power a combi-weapon could fit the bill somewhat I guess. Also, as you said I'm reluctant to be "robbing other warbands of the option as well."
Apologies man, it's a nice idea and I really did consider it (e.g. Same gun options as termies), but I can't see it being added tbh.


Regarding the 'zerkers and their sacred number, I'll answer it with another (rhetorical) question.
If a casualty was taken which reduced the squad to 7-men, would the skull champion then disappear? Basically, as it's before deployment that the sacred number has an effect, it won't change in-game, so yeah you can add as many characters as you want!

Personally, I feel reducing the cost of the Sorcerer is more balanced (and familiar) than adding another psychic power, whilst it also prevents the squad from being 230+pts at all times. Does that understanding make sense?

Cheers for the feedback Praxiss, much appreciated man.


I'm thinking about wrapping this up soon and having a final version of the PDF up; which would then go on other sites such as Scribd etc. by the way guys...

Thanks man!

Right, here's a Fabius themed army list:

HQ - Chaos Lord - 2 Lightning Claws, Chaos Master - Icon of the Black Legion - 160pts

Elites - Fabius Bile - 160pts

Elites - 5 Possessed Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Chaos Undivided, open-topped rhino - 200pts (Fabius here)

Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - Enhanced Warriors, 2 meltaguns, open-topped rhino - 265pts

Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - Enhanced Warriors, 2 meltaguns, open-topped rhino - 265pts

Troops - 6 Chaos Space Marines - Enhanced Warriors, 1 flamer, open-topped rhino - 175pts (Lord here)

Troops - 15 Heretics - Lasguns, 2 Flamers, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 95pts

Heavy Support - Vindicator - Daemonic Possession - 130pts

Heavy Support - Defiler - 2 Reaper Autocannons - 155pts

Heavy Support - Defiler - 145pts

1750pts

Not perfect by any means, but the general idea is there, although it could be improved on.
You have 4 powerful close combat units advancing in open-topped rhinos, supported by a vindicator. These are all very in-your-face threats that should pressure an opponent.
During this the Defilers advance, draw fire and provide fire and the Heretics camp on an objective.

The Lord is good as he packs a reasonable punch in assault himself, but is able to grant a single unit of enhanced warriors a Veteran Skill each turn; potentially giving you Preferred Enemy on a Str5, T5 unit!

You mean the Fabius Bile who left his own Legion, doesn't worship Slaanesh and sells his services to other warbands but otherwise bears no affiliations, should specifically be part of an Emperors Children Warband?