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Tortoiseer wrote:
Well, I think your tome idea is a good start but I think that they don't go far enough. Chaos powers should feel suitably more, well, chaotic. More high risk, high reward than other dex's powers as is in keeping with the high price their sorcerers pay in order to command the essence of the warp and its denizens.
So I always though that it would be a neat mechanic if all chaos psykers had the option to impose penalties or additonal dangers on their impending psychic test in exchange for increasing the lethality of the spell. For example they might have to test with a negative LD modifier and/or increase the chances they might suffer perils.

Having multiple levels of such risk/reward combos would make it even more interesting (I think two additional levels is ideal). Each spell entry in the codex could list its profile and then have the two, more dangerous levels, listed beneath with the adjusted profiles. A more risky version of doombolt could ramp up the number of shots and increase the strength or range. Advanced versions of warptime might grants bonus attacks or increase the users initiative. Winds of chaos could be boosted to 3+ to wound, etc.
To reflect the great skill of a sorcerer like Ahriman (and the fact he's got the book of magnus), he could perhaps cast high level spells with lower level penalties

Anyways, sorry to hit you with all that. Its just something I've thought might help give sorcerers their edge back.

That's absolutely fine man and I agree with what you're saying. I'm really trying to avoid going to over the top, so something like various levels of power may be a bit much for my liking, however I do agree that the powers need ramping up a bit, particularly if you compare it to the modern Codices.

I'm wondering about a simple change where a Sorcerer (or Prince I guess?) can double the rate of fire for their Psychic attack (albeit this means its only applicable for certain attacks) but suffers PotW on any roll of a double. If under their leadership it's still cast as normal. This can significantly increase damage output, but at risk. It's just what I thought up of now, but it fits with your suggestion of risk/reward and is nice and simple. Potentially, any Sorcerer that dies due to PotW could turn into a spawn also?

I'm also wondering about buffing certain powers too, in order to make it more in line with the power of some Codices in 5th edition. Namely:

- Warptime should be fine as-is. Difficult to change too.
- Gift/Power of Chaos will still instant remove the model, but would benefit from the improved Spawn. Also, would take effect on EQUAL to or higher the targets toughness (I can't recall if this is the case already or not)
- Aggressive Defence could either become -3Ld or stay the same(?)
- Chaos Theory = D6+4 strength or stays the same?
- Doom Bolt stays as is or becomes Str5?
- Winds stays as is, but also penetrates vehicles on a 3+?
- Warp Rift stays as is
- Bolt of Change becomes Lance or Str9 lance? (can't recall what the Zoanthrope's power's like...)
- Nurgles Rot becomes within 12" or is changed to large blast (on model) with poisoned 2+?
- LoS stays as is?
- Warp Flare becomes AP4

What would be your thought on these?
As I've said, I'm very reluctant on making them overpowered however, bearing in mind that Tomes can also take effect on some places etc.
As for Ahriman, he can now benefit from Tomes himself, auto-casts powers and can cast 3 per turn; I think he's pretty powerful now?

Thanks for the feedback Tortoiseer!

DAaddict wrote:To address psychic powers and bring them uptodate.

1. Sorcerers do not pay for powers. They chose them for free. Can cast 1 per turn. 2 if Tzeentch. For 50 pts the sorcerer can cast 2 per turn. 3 if Tzeentch.

2. Demon princes can cast spells but must pay for them.

3. Sorcerers have an added psychic defence. Call it Conduit of Chaos. The effect is that due to the sorcerer being an essence of the warp, any doubles rolled when performing a psychic test result in a perils of the warp test for the opponent. While not as powerful as a psychic hood or rune staff in negating an opponent's psychic tests. It should be a deterrent going from a 1 in 18 chance of a perils test to a 1 in 6 chance of a perils test.

Overall, while leaving the demon prince as a buff MC that can cast spells, it restores a reason to play a chaos sorcerer being cheaper and providing some passive defense.

Well, in terms of buffing the powers, I've addressed this slightly with response to Tortoiseer. However, I don't know if you've looked, but 1 and 2 is already the case under my Codex (except casting 2 per turn is 40pts) and in regards to 3, Sorcerers now have Psychic hoods and come with powers for free, meaning that they are significantly different from Greater Daemons (noticeably in points costs) and also have some psychic defence.

Well, if it's going to be in the codex, I'd reccomend giving it a listing at some point. This IS a WIP, but it shouldn't be a supplementary to its own book.

With my PDF. which I'm still going to make (with help from Keatonic's PDF), I'll include a wargear section (but not fluff), so mine will basically be intended to be everything you need to play a game.
However, this is still a fair while off (June time I'd expect) and Keatonic has still done a brilliant and generous job and personally, I can remember pretty much all the points costs etc. from the codex, let alone weapon statistics.
Reaper AC = Range 36", Str 7, AP 4, Twin-linked, assault 2. But that's just me...


Keep the feedback coming guys!

Will do! I'm just error reporting, (I used to test software plugins at my parent's IT section of the company, habits habits).

Amongst other possible changes and re-writes being done in my PDF version, which is progressing nicely, I have 2 fairly significant re-writes I'd like peoples opinions on and another proposed piece of wargear:

First - Changing Icons to Marks

One of the first changes I'm considering is to change Icons to Marks and allow all units to access a personal icon. This shouldn't have a significant effect in-game, but it should help with the simplification of things by removing the Icons ruling whereby the bearer is the last to be removed. Judging by GW Codices, simplification whilst keeping customisation seems to be a big thing and I think this should help achieve it.
The only real flaws I can see coming from this are the increased difficulty in representing in-game (for example, you can clearly see an Icon being held by the squad, a mark less so) and that it could complicate points costs, but that's for me to worry about.

Furthermore, as an effect of this, Renegade Warbands would be able to form combat squads.


Second - Re-writing the Warband/Legion rules

Another change I'm considering implementing is to change the warband rules, so that rather than you having to choose a warband for each HQ, Icons of [insert warband here] would become (free) options for HQ units. Then, any other unit in the army can be given an Icon/Emblem/whatever of their legion/warband as well. Whilst the effects won't change, this should further help simplify things.
In effect, if a Lord chooses (for example), the Icon of the Iron Warriors Legion, then any unit can be given the same Icon in order to benefit from the normal rules (i.e. Free Meltaguns/Lascannons), rather than simply being allocated. This also shouldn't be too big a change, but should smooth things up a bit.


Finally - A piece of wargear; Gift from the Gods
This would work something along the lines of being a 5pts option for any champion or independent character (except those that are unique of course) and conferring effects along the following lines:

Pre-deployment roll a D6 for each model with a Gift from the Gods (name pending ), the result corresponds with the effects below:

1 - the model is turned into/replaced by a Chaos Spawn
2 - No effect.
3 - The model recieves D3 extra attacks in each assault phase.
4 - The model becomes a Psyker, able to select (and cast) a single Psychic Power
5 - The model recieves the preferred enemy USR
6 - The model may re-roll all armour saves.


--------

Feedback on any of these ideas would be really appreciated thanks.

Took a few days longer to sort than I'd hoped, but here's my first Heretic unit. Hope you're a fan just Dave, going try them out on the tabletop soon.

Wow. They look really nice Morathi, I can't wait to see them painted up. The guy far-right looks almost like he's wielding a pitch-fork, or maybe that's my suffolkness coming back?

Ah yeah, three knife blades strapped to the gun so he can leave a favoured mark in his victims.

Holy Pwnsauce Batman!! I love the Codex dude keep up the good work. I'm definitely on board with the warband oriented special rules and unit limitations, helps keep people honest and fluffy. Maybe if we are lucky GWS will come through with Legion specific codices.


Did have one thing I'd like to point out, though..

Daemon Prince - 270 pts

Daemon weapon, Wings, Mark of Tzeentch (Warptime), Daemonic Speed

This is a 4 wound model, T5 3+/4+ that can charge 18", assault at initiative 10 with at 'least' six attacks and as many as 12, with rerolls if the power goes off. For the points, all of that might even be okay..

The sticker here is between Warptime and the volume of attacks, the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon's rule of rending through invulnerable saves becomes terribly powerful. This guy can drop Kaldor Draigo (4w Eternal Warrior 3+ invul) before he even gets to reply. He absolutely owns close combat. I'd take this fella over Abaddon every time, and he is no push over.

It's not a big deal, but to dot the i's a bit.

In the pdf the Land Raider has 'assault vehicle' while the LR Marauder has 'assault ramp'.

Thanks for the comments guys, I apologise for a lack of replies of late - been very busy, but I should have much more time now. Also, any outstanding emails should be answered soon. Cheers!

Boneblade wrote:Holy Pwnsauce Batman!! I love the Codex dude keep up the good work. I'm definitely on board with the warband oriented special rules and unit limitations, helps keep people honest and fluffy. Maybe if we are lucky GWS will come through with Legion specific codices.


Did have one thing I'd like to point out, though..

Daemon Prince - 270 pts

Daemon weapon, Wings, Mark of Tzeentch (Warptime), Daemonic Speed

This is a 4 wound model, T5 3+/4+ that can charge 18", assault at initiative 10 with at 'least' six attacks and as many as 12, with rerolls if the power goes off. For the points, all of that might even be okay..

The sticker here is between Warptime and the volume of attacks, the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon's rule of rending through invulnerable saves becomes terribly powerful. This guy can drop Kaldor Draigo (4w Eternal Warrior 3+ invul) before he even gets to reply. He absolutely owns close combat. I'd take this fella over Abaddon every time, and he is no push over.

Thanks for the feedback, you make a really good point. I'm not too sure he'd over-power Draigo, however you definitely have a point. I'm unsure what to change however; I think the 4+ is pretty fair IMHO and Initiative 10 may be overpowered, yet it doesn't seem a problem with the likes of Banshees and quicksilver. It may need a change, but I'm unsure how I'd change it. However, from the point you've raised and how GW are seemingly moving away from ignoring invulnerable saves, I think the Daemon Weapon needs a change.

I think they may warrant 50pts on a DP and I'm wondering how to change the MoT Daemon Weapon; possibly making it rending 4+ or on a to-wound roll of 6 places a blast template? I'm unsure however, but very good point. Thank you, it's very constructive.

TiB wrote:It's not a big deal, but to dot the i's a bit.

In the pdf the Land Raider has 'assault vehicle' while the LR Marauder has 'assault ramp'.

Thanks man, that's the same in my version on here and in the PDF a Chaos Champion is also down as a monstrous creature. However, in my PDF this has been changed so they're both assault vehicles. Thanks nonetheless, but this is more of a problem for Keatonic who made the PDF, whilst mine's still under constriction. Cheers.

The definite good side to what you are trying to do in this fandex is the return to options / variety for Chaos units which made the previous editions so fun. But that doesn't mean Chaos should be able to do what everyone else can - like Banshees for example. You gotta come up with something special, something that feels appropriately Chaos and at the same time doesn't blatantly steal from other units or codices. Instead of Daemonic Speed (which is a steal) making you strike at Init 10, maybe turn it into Fleet, or Move Through Cover or something.

As far as the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon goes, I honestly think the original codex had it fine. Str 4 ap 3 d6 shooting attacks is a nice increase to any model's normal shooting ability. It might not be as important to a Daemon Prince as it would be to a Chaos Lord, but still isn't worthless. And giving a DP those extra d6 attacks (being Monstrous) is pretty much worth the points by itself, before any cult-specific abilities. I regularly run a 175 pt Winged Warptime Tzeentch Prince that works wonders - giving him an extra d6 attacks in combo with rerolls and +d6 armor pen would just be sick. On top of that give me d6 ap 3 shooting at BS 5? BONUS.

But the point of a Fandex is to be creative and different, so just leaving it the way it has always been may not be your thing. Which is totally cool and up to you. You are the author and you are doing great as far as I am concerned. With a little balance testing I'd buy your codex over any piece of crap Matt Ward comes up with. Good luck man.

This might seem like a stupid point, but since the Emperor's Children were originally close combat/ short range specialists, couldn't you give them a sound based ccw?

Echo Blade, maybe, counting as a power weapon alone but negating AS and IS if armed with a pair.

Durza wrote:This might seem like a stupid point, but since the Emperor's Children were originally close combat/ short range specialists, couldn't you give them a sound based ccw?

Echo Blade, maybe, counting as a power weapon alone but negating AS and IS if armed with a pair.

Interesting idea... What do you mean by 'AS' and 'IS'?
I never heard of Emperors Children being a close combat orientated Legion, they aspired to be experts of all fields of war but the natural specialisation of astartes is close-range...

Boneblade wrote:The definite good side to what you are trying to do in this fandex is the return to options / variety for Chaos units which made the previous editions so fun. But that doesn't mean Chaos should be able to do what everyone else can - like Banshees for example. You gotta come up with something special, something that feels appropriately Chaos and at the same time doesn't blatantly steal from other units or codices. Instead of Daemonic Speed (which is a steal) making you strike at Init 10, maybe turn it into Fleet, or Move Through Cover or something.

Oh, I agree. But then again, this is only costed at 3pts for Eldar! Nonetheless, I agree with what you're saying about the initiative 10 thing needing changing, however Move Through Cover and Fleet were both things that crossed my mind, but these would have no effect on someone that's part of a unit (eg. Lord/Sorcerer). Maybe a simple initiative bonus rather than 10? Or ignoring the effects of cover when attacking?

As far as the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon goes, I honestly think the original codex had it fine. Str 4 ap 3 d6 shooting attacks is a nice increase to any model's normal shooting ability. It might not be as important to a Daemon Prince as it would be to a Chaos Lord, but still isn't worthless. And giving a DP those extra d6 attacks (being Monstrous) is pretty much worth the points by itself, before any cult-specific abilities. I regularly run a 175 pt Winged Warptime Tzeentch Prince that works wonders - giving him an extra d6 attacks in combo with rerolls and +d6 armor pen would just be sick. On top of that give me d6 ap 3 shooting at BS 5? BONUS.

I'm reluctant to make it a shooting weapon tbh as... well... it's not. I may do so however for the sake of balance, but tbh I'm kind of reluctant to...
I know what you're saying though, the potential bonuses of a Daemon Weapon to a Daemon Prince can be... impressive, to say the least. I originally kept the points the same as they Princes don't gain from the power-weapon status, however I agree with what you're saying so I'll up the cost suitably.
However, as you know, his points cost can really rack up, the increased cost of a Daemon Weapon may be enough to balance it, along with whatever changes occur with the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon.

But the point of a Fandex is to be creative and different, so just leaving it the way it has always been may not be your thing. Which is totally cool and up to you. You are the author and you are doing great as far as I am concerned. With a little balance testing I'd buy your codex over any piece of crap Matt Ward comes up with. Good luck man.

thanks, it's partially intended to be a fully fledged (but not legal) replacement for the CSM Codex as is and my general intentions were to provide the balance between the character of 3.5, but the balance and simplicity of 4th edition Chaos Codices...
Cheers.

What do you mean by 'AS' and 'IS'?

I'm guessing Armour Saves and Invulnerable Saves. But I don't really see why a soundsword would negate invulnerable saves.

Yeah, Armour and Invulnerable saves. I'm just taking the thought of negating invulnerable saves from Eidilon killing the Warsinger in Fulgrim by negating her powers with a Warp Scream, and the Echo Blades could amplify those powers.

I never heard of Emperors Children being a close combat orientated Legion, they aspired to be experts of all fields of war but the natural specialisation of astartes is close-range...

From what I remember, the first company specialised in close combat and the second were short range shooters, later becoming the first Noise Marines.

I love the idea of having a sound based close combat weapon, however i have to ask, how the feth do you take an armour save against sound? the sonic shooting weapons should perhaps be lower strength but with a much better ap, sonic shockwaves move FASTER through solids than air, so armour is actually going to manify the damage dealt irl if these existed, furthur more why not have a strenght bonus against better armour save models, to allow for this? make them slightly more expensive but add a whole new dynamic to the game.

TiB wrote:

What do you mean by 'AS' and 'IS'?

I'm guessing Armour Saves and Invulnerable Saves. But I don't really see why a soundsword would negate invulnerable saves.

Durza wrote:Yeah, Armour and Invulnerable saves. I'm just taking the thought of negating invulnerable saves from Eidilon killing the Warsinger in Fulgrim by negating her powers with a Warp Scream, and the Echo Blades could amplify those powers.

I never heard of Emperors Children being a close combat orientated Legion, they aspired to be experts of all fields of war but the natural specialisation of astartes is close-range...

From what I remember, the first company specialised in close combat and the second were short range shooters, later becoming the first Noise Marines.

Aaaah, OK. Thanks for the clarification. Well, Eidolon's killing of the Warsinger was more akin to a Doom Siren I felt. Nonetheless, GW appears to be moving away from weaponry that ignores invulnerable saves, so I'm going to avoid such weapons (the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon will be changed too) that ignore invulnerable saves...

Nice idea, if you can refine it a bit further I'm all ears...

Well, IIRC the first company was simply the 1st company, therefore having access to the best goodies and weaponry (e.g. Termie armour) which I figure would naturally lead them to be orientated in close combat, as it would be with all the Legions? It doesn't really suggest this to be the case with the rest of the Legion either IMHO.

Tyranic Marta wrote:I love the idea of having a sound based close combat weapon, however i have to ask, how the feth do you take an armour save against sound? the sonic shooting weapons should perhaps be lower strength but with a much better ap, sonic shockwaves move FASTER through solids than air, so armour is actually going to manify the damage dealt irl if these existed, furthur more why not have a strenght bonus against better armour save models, to allow for this? make them slightly more expensive but add a whole new dynamic to the game.

Well, actually most bullets - particularly in modern rifles it seems - move faster than the speed of sound, this may be different with say a Boltshell as it's a much larger projectile fired by a fictional gun, but nonetheless, the question remains...

I agree with what you're saying and how realistically Power Armour probably shouldn't negate soundwaves and I did originally consider making Sonic Blasters Str 2, AP 2 but decided against it in the end for balance issues and the limited use of a strength 2 or 3 weapon for example. The current sonic weaponry excels at anti-infantry and I decided to keep it the same with my Codex, but due to the RoF it can also work well against MeQ's and the like...

why not keep them strength 4, make them ap3 and make them 10-15 ppm?

Because then you've effectively got different Thousand Sons IMHO...

at least give them their ap5 back

Just Dave wrote:Aaaah, OK. Thanks for the clarification. Well, Eidolon's killing of the Warsinger was more akin to a Doom Siren I felt. Nonetheless, GW appears to be moving away from weaponry that ignores invulnerable saves, so I'm going to avoid such weapons (the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon will be changed too) that ignore invulnerable saves...

Nice idea, if you can refine it a bit further I'm all ears...

Well, IIRC the first company was simply the 1st company, therefore having access to the best goodies and weaponry (e.g. Termie armour) which I figure would naturally lead them to be orientated in close combat, as it would be with all the Legions? It doesn't really suggest this to be the case with the rest of the Legion either IMHO.

Tyranic Marta wrote:I love the idea of having a sound based close combat weapon, however i have to ask, how the feth do you take an armour save against sound? the sonic shooting weapons should perhaps be lower strength but with a much better ap, sonic shockwaves move FASTER through solids than air, so armour is actually going to manify the damage dealt irl if these existed, furthur more why not have a strenght bonus against better armour save models, to allow for this? make them slightly more expensive but add a whole new dynamic to the game.

Well, actually most bullets - particularly in modern rifles it seems - move faster than the speed of sound, this may be different with say a Boltshell as it's a much larger projectile fired by a fictional gun, but nonetheless, the question remains...

I agree with what you're saying and how realistically Power Armour probably shouldn't negate soundwaves and I did originally consider making Sonic Blasters Str 2, AP 2 but decided against it in the end for balance issues and the limited use of a strength 2 or 3 weapon for example. The current sonic weaponry excels at anti-infantry and I decided to keep it the same with my Codex, but due to the RoF it can also work well against MeQ's and the like...

The first, third and eleventh companies definitely specialised in close combat, and the captian of the first didn't wear Terminator Armour after the Heresy. Not sure if he did before then.
@Tyranic Marta, sound waves can be reflected off solids when moving into them from air, which would mean armour could possibly stop it from long distances. Going straight into a solid, there wouldn't be a chance of armour stopping sound, which is why echo blades would give no armour save. Possibly have Sonic Blasters AP6 at max range, reducing it by one for every 4" they are within that, so it would be AP2 at 4 inches.

On the echo blades, maybe for every echo blade in the unit, there is a chance the enemy is disorientated by them and can't attack back, eg for one, on a six they can't attack back, with two, they can't attack back if you roll five or six etc.

Thanks for the clarification, it sounds like a great idea, but for the vibraswords, make it that each model with a sword can designate one model in base contact who he is making disoriented and on a 5 the opponent loses one attack on a 6 he may not swing at all

I hate to nit-pick but the PDF file isn't loading at all for me, and I would love it so I could print it off :s

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:I hate to nit-pick but the PDF file isn't loading at all for me, and I would love it so I could print it off :s

Not sure why... Just tried it and it was fine.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6626237/Just%20Dave%27s%205e%20CSM%20Codex.pdf

(Maybe Dropbox was down?)

ALSO, I've caught a few errors in the PDF, so I'm going to fix them when I have time. For example, it says greater daemons have a squad size of 5-10, which is NOT RIGHT. Lol. They're 0-1.

Tyranic Marta wrote:Thanks for the clarification, it sounds like a great idea, but for the vibraswords, make it that each model with a sword can designate one model in base contact who he is making disoriented and on a 5 the opponent loses one attack on a 6 he may not swing at all

I think it'd have to be an attack from the unit as a whole rather than one, since it'd make more sense if it was the person the Noise Marine was fighting at the time that would be getting the full blast. But since you can't designate specific members of a unit (except Independent Characters) it could end up that that guy with a ccw loses two attacks, while the leader of the unit swings his magic Imperium sword five times... Perhaps it'd work better if it could disorientate the whole enemy unit on the first round of combat only, then they function as power swords for the remainder of combat, unless another enemy unit joined the combat, in which case they could be disorientated too.

Echo Blades: Echo Blades are treated as power weapons, but grant a +2 attack bonus instead of +1 if a model is armed with a pair. When a Noise Marine unit with at least one Echo Blade assaults an enemy unit, the enemy unit cannot attack back in the first round of combat on a roll of 5 or 6. Add +1 to the roll for every additional Echo Blade in the unit. When a Noise Marine unit with at least one Echo Blade is assaulted by an enemy unit, that unit strikes at Initiative 1 during the first round of combat on a roll of 5 or 6. Add +1 to the roll for every additional Echo Blade in the unit.

Well, whilst I appreciate the contributions, I'm reluctant to include such an idea unless there's a variant for each of the four gods, to try and avoid imbalance in terms of options and/or preference.
I'd also question the proposed cost of such a weapon. When a weapon can add an additional attack as well as preventing the enemy from attacking altogether (or at In1), I'd expect it to cost a significant amount, particularly if it's a Power Weapon on top of this for example?

20ppm i think, look at a weapon like a thunderhammer for most MeQ races, double strength power weapon, next turn if they are still alive enemy fights at I1, and dont throw the I 1 swings from the thunderhammer bs at me, theres a reason why entire terminator squads can be equipped with them

Right here's a treat for you'll. I've attached my PDF version of the final codex.

Please remember that it's WiP. There's some things that will be changed and obviously it's not finished. It should however give you an idea of the updates I've made to it, the general format for the final product (the format for the army list section is pretty much definite however, thanks Majortom), some things that are set to be changed but will hopefully a clearer idea of the final product.

As ever, all C+C is welcome, as are any proof-reading corrections or suggestions etc. Hope you like it!

Dave.

Right, small update of goings on.

The (Dreadnought) siege hammer has been changed to work as a chainfist effectively - I thought AP1 wasn't worth 10pts.

The (Dreadnought) Scourge Claw - also currently 10pts however I'm unsure about this one's balance - causes the Dread to strike at its base Str6 (but ignoring saves) and allows it to allocate a single attack on all enemies in base contact, as well as its usual attacks. This may seem a but OTT, but this is 10pts extra from a standard DCCW and losing Str10 is pretty significant. As I said however, I'm kind of unsure about this.

Khorne Bezerkers may have a rule whereby they have Rage if there isn't a IC or Skull Champion in the unit - I'm unsure about balancing if Chainaxes stay as they are; 22pts seems a bit too cheap, but I want them to be better than they are currently.

Currently researching the various types of close combat weaponry (in the real world) as I might add another Chaos-exclusive weapon.

Gift of the Gods (my PDF) works as its stated on page 3(?) except that preferred enemy becomes +1 base strength and MoK re-rolls if it gets Psychic Power.