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grimz wrote:

SpaceMonk wrote:Excellent Work!

Only one small suggestion in that I would let Khorne Bezerkers and Kharne take flamers. There is a the story of Kharne grabbing a flamer and letting loose on his own legion (and the Emperors Children) I think that would be cool and in character. Just a small idea

Overall fantastic job!

Agree!

I have been considering allowing Khorne Bezerkers to take a hand flamer, so I will think about this a bit more I guess...
I think it's worth noting however that Kharne picking up a flamer once in background doesn't really suggest it's a common trend for him, let alone the rest of the World Eaters, nonetheless, I'll probably add the option for hand flamers!

Hellgore wrote:The only thing that has struck me as overpowered is the needle-weapon of fabius bile. I think AP3 is not fitting for this weapontype, while everything else (12", Assault 3, Poison 4+, ID inflicting) seems okay to me. Maybe AP5?

The rest of the codex seems to be okay to me, maybe I get my csm-pals to test this kind of dex for our internal games so they can get the fun out of their armies back again.

Thanks Hellgore. It was originally AP4, however this really reduces the weapons potency. I can understand your concern, however as it is, it still only kills 1.25 MeQ's, which is not much AT ALL for a 12" weapon. At AP4 or less this then drops to 0.417 which is even less. Again, I fully understand your concern, but when you factor in the short range, not particularly impressive poison/4+ the weapon doesn't really have that much damage output (only marginally more than a Plasma Pistol).

--------

Gruntz:
I really think the gift-horse analogy is a baaaad metaphor. It's more like giving the horse a saddle but it being initially uncomfortable.
Something like completely removing the option for cultists (like Alpha Legion suffered from previously) is like taking the horse away. Same for Storm Troopers in Grey Knights.
I think claiming this makes your army invalid is a large stretch to be honest.

There are several solutions for your predicament with my current rules:
- Use them as Chaos Space Marines/Chosen/Havocs.
- Perform a weapon swap.
- Use them as counts-as.
- Stop using your bolter-marines for Noise Marines. I counted them in your army; you'd lose 6 marines. Six. All of whom could just do one of the above. Your army wouldn't be invalid.

The problem I see with your proposed changes are:
- I've never heard of Sonic Weapons being that widespread.
- Makes Noise Marines less unique.
- Means that ideally World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons all need similar options, which is difficult to implement.
This would then make the warbands rule more complicated and favour god-dedicated armies.
- Replacing Bolters for chainaxes isn't really a difficult choice considering the World Eater preference for close combat.
- You speak like it was the actual Codex, if it was then it would be entirely reasonable to assume that the Noise Marines would get a new kit, with appropriate amounts of sonic weaponry.
- Allowing non Noise-Marine units to use Sonic Blasters doesn't change your Noise Marine units.


Part of my intentions with this Codex was to not force fluff upon the player and not restrict them, but to allow them to create characterful armies that can follow the fluff as stringently as they like, or not. I still believe this has been achieved and I don't think your proposed rules will change this to be completely honest.

Again, hopefully you can understand the problem here from a designers perspective and that I'm not refuting other peoples suggestions, but genuinely considering them and whether they should and/or can be implemented within reason.

Thank you for this codex it will be very usfel

Just Dave wrote:
Gruntz:
I really think the gift-horse analogy is a baaaad metaphor. It's more like giving the horse a saddle but it being initially uncomfortable.
Something like completely removing the option for cultists (like Alpha Legion suffered from previously) is like taking the horse away. Same for Storm Troopers in Grey Knights.
I think claiming this makes your army invalid is a large stretch to be honest.

The problem I see with your proposed changes are:
- I've never heard of Sonic Weapons being that widespread.
- Makes Noise Marines less unique.
- Means that ideally World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons all need similar options, which is difficult to implement.
This would then make the warbands rule more complicated and favour god-dedicated armies.
- Replacing Bolters for chainaxes isn't really a difficult choice considering the World Eater preference for close combat.
- You speak like it was the actual Codex, if it was then it would be entirely reasonable to assume that the Noise Marines would get a new kit, with appropriate amounts of sonic weaponry.
- Allowing non Noise-Marine units to use Sonic Blasters doesn't change your Noise Marine units.
[/b]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181495_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Emperor's_Children_Warband.pdf

My suggestions for the EC and WE were represented in the 3.5 edition codex. see below. And in a pre-CA ruleset released in white dwarf.

From a slaanesh player allow me to expand upon the horse metaphor for clarity. Once upon a time there existed a CA listing which permitted an EC list I have described. The pre-CA rules for all the Legions released in white dwarf included the world eaters, deathguard and thousand sons. The EC list had the options that I have been pushing, world eaters also had their chainaxes IIRC. This was under the really old 3th edition chaos codex.

When the 3.5 rules came out EC players created their armies with noise weapon equipped havocs, vehicles, bikes, terminators, and characters. Then the new 4th codex came out which threw out all the legion rules and crammed all the legions back into one codex. Some EC players were forced into a situation where they have vehicles, heavies, fast and HQ that with weapons that they can’t have. That is not a major problem as blastmasters became missile launchers when mounted on vehicles and so on and havocs, bikers and terminators, and etc that were once fearless noise marines lost their nerve and started being effected by ld test. The EC were brought back in the form of an Apocalypse datafax I posted above. The dakka slaanesh armies clearly displayed this - other units equipped with noise weaponry. So the EC army concept I am advocating spanned three generations of chaos codices, 3th, 3.5, and the current 4th edition codex. Getting their sonic weapons back for their peripheral units is a number one on Slaanesh marine players’ wishlist. This was the saddle I in which I was referring which you gave in the sense that vehicles, characters, and perhaps havocs can get some sonic weaponry in your codex.

The horse are the noise marines. Noise marines under their current and previous rules give a large degree of flexibly. Their fearless, high initiative, and access to a doom siren makes them decent assault units. But it is a waste if they are loaded up with sonic weaponry and better off firing than stuck in assault. There are assault armies that feature only a champion with a doom siren. On the other end their are units with the only the blastmaster, and than there are units with a careful mix for optimum tactical ability. Noise marines could be customize by deciding exactly how much sound weaponry their squad contained to suit both tactical and modeling tastes. If a player wanted every model in the unit to have a sonic blaster the player could make that squad, if the player wanted a squad with no noise weapons that option was available as well - as was everything between those two extremes. Forcing players to take sonic blasters just removes a wealth of options that were and are currently enjoyed by Slaanesh armies. A slaanesh player that would likely want to take blastmasters on their dreadnaught or havocs because it fits their slaanesh theme army like those I linked. The players want those options because it goes with their invalid noise marine armies; they get there saddle, but lose their horse.

My 2500 point army has 6 sonic blasters, 7 blastmasters, and 6 aspiring champions 4 of which have doom sirens - none of the champions have the required sonic blaster. So all my champions are out, then due to the amount of sonic blasters I go from an army of noise marines to a single unit without a champion. Lets say I take all my bolter marines and make them CSM. So now I have a heap of marines without special or heavy weapons because that role was previous held by the sonic weapons within their squads. Basically all EC marine players will be in the same exact situation as me.

Grunt, you need to work with me here, right now you don't appear to be IMHO. I've highlighted solutions to yours and others 'problems' - which can support the idea it doesn't need changing - and the difficulties with implementing army-wide sonic blasters like you suggest - which can conflict with the idea you propose:

Just Dave wrote:There are several solutions for your predicament with my current rules:
- Use them as Chaos Space Marines/Chosen/Havocs.
- Perform a weapon swap.
- Use them as counts-as.
- Stop using your bolter-marines for Noise Marines. I counted them in your army; you'd lose 6 marines. Six. All of whom could just do one of the above. Your army wouldn't be invalid.
- Edit: let me clarify, for WYSIWYG purposes, the CCW & BP marines are perfectly legal, which includes ALL of your champions. Hence, you would only 'lose' 6 marines.

The problem I see with your proposed changes are:
- I've never heard of Sonic Weapons being that widespread.
- Makes Noise Marines less unique.
- Means that ideally World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons all need similar options, which is difficult to implement.
This would then make the warbands rule more complicated and favour god-dedicated armies.
- Replacing Bolters for chainaxes isn't really a difficult choice considering the World Eater preference for close combat.
- You speak like it was the actual Codex, if it was then it would be entirely reasonable to assume that the Noise Marines would get a new kit, with appropriate amounts of sonic weaponry.
- Allowing non Noise-Marine units to use Sonic Blasters doesn't change your Noise Marine units.

I am aware that this was in the 3.5 Codex (but not the 3rd or 4th!), I am aware of the apocalypse formation and you reminding me of them doesn't change the above circumstances. Despite what many may think, the 3.5 Codex was not perfect and it was limiting, overcomplicated or overpowered in several circumstances and I have no desires to emanate this Codex. Again, re-hashing your argument/belief doesn't work if you don't try to work with me and address the above (quoted) issues.

Grunt, couldn't you just make a single Noise Marine unit out of the ones with Blasters and use the others as normal Chaos Marine units? Whenever you take up a new codex, there's some adjustments that need to be made. If you're not willing to make them, you could just play a different codex. Sorry if I'm coming off as a bit of a jerk, but I think the codex works great as is.

Google “noise marine squad” images

My storm trooper units still exist in the rules and I still play the squads I made for daemon hunters under IG; numerous squads and models (the clear majority in my case) depicted in the browser window are not permitted in your codex. Of the three EC armies displayed on dakka there are 15 noise marine units between them. Only 3 out of those 15 meet your requirements. So 80% of the units are going to require major revisions and probably remodeling to meet the demands of your codex - the players basically have to remake a whole new army. I am currently converting my radical daemon hunters over to IG; a process that doesn’t require me to modify my squads, state that my storm troopers count as another unit, or break off weapons. It looks like you are mandating the sonic blasters to justify the 23 point cost per noise marine to match the point values of the other cult marines. If that is the case, it seems bit arbitrary to expect people to perform major revisions on their armies just so the values line up. It would mean practically nothing to the codex to say the Noise marines are 20 points with bolter, but can upgrade to sonic blaster for 3 points - that that little bit of difference matters a lot to all EC players.

I first suggested was that noise marines were allowed to keep the options the EC armies enjoyed for that last three chaos codices. When you stated that you were dead set on keeping Noise marines sonic weapons exclusive, I made the suggestion that the EC CSM could exchange their weapons for noise weapons which would allow EC players to keep their armies intact at the cost of their fearlessness; something that would not effect the other 11 warbands’ use of NMs. That was a pretty big compromises on the part of Slaanesh players which has zero impact on any other warband other than EC. I just think the codex causes a completely unnecessary upset to EC armies.

Durza wrote:Grunt, couldn't you just make a single Noise Marine unit out of the ones with Blasters and use the others as normal Chaos Marine units? Whenever you take up a new codex, there's some adjustments that need to be made. If you're not willing to make them, you could just play a different codex. Sorry if I'm coming off as a bit of a jerk, but I think the codex works great as is.

Those are my thoughts. First off, it's a fandex, you don't NEED to use it. If you have a problem with it, go use the one produced by GW. I'm sure it'll suit your needs well enough
Also, I think Dave has done a god job trying his best to work with you, which is a hell of a lot more than GW does. So ease up. If your buddies are letting you use the fandex, I'm sure they wouldn't mind a whole six marines pretending to use sonic blasters. If you want to play an EC army still, and want to represent those guys that don't use sonic weapons, go go slaanesh marked CSM. Problem solved.

I don't really see how much of an upset it would be to EC armies to give them sonic weapons as standard, but then again, I've never seen the point of using Noise Marines without sonic weapons either.

Again Grunt, I need you to work with me here.

Googling Noise Marine Squads achieves nothing, although many of the results are really nice looking and the vast majority of them are equipped with Sonic Weaponry it seems.

Gameplay-wise, I still see no reason why Noise Marines should take Bolters and I'm yet to be shown one if I'm honest. Non-gameplay-wise I'm sorry if you're unhappy with it and don't like the mandatory Sonic Blasters, I am, but it's a small sacrifice, one that has a relatively minor effect on modelling but fits with fluff and gameplay A LOT more IMHO.

As Durza said, every army faces changes with Codex revisions, heck you even have to change your entire Codex for your Storm Troopers (yet seem more concerned about weapon swaps on 6 NM's) and as Amanax said, this isn't forced.
Note: a Codex (e.g. to change your Storm Troopers to an IG) force costs £20, without any additions needed to make an army legal/good. A set of 6 Sonic Weapons costs £13 (which is ALL that would be needed here).

Again, I need you to work with me here; you are still repeating your argument without addressing the issues I keep raising with the idea, which again, I have quoted here:

Just Dave wrote:There are several solutions for your predicament with my current rules:
- Use them as Chaos Space Marines/Chosen/Havocs.
- Perform a weapon swap.
- Use them as counts-as.
- Stop using your bolter-marines for Noise Marines. I counted them in your army; you'd lose 6 marines. Six. All of whom could just do one of the above. Your army wouldn't be invalid.
- Edit: let me clarify, for WYSIWYG purposes, the CCW & BP marines are perfectly legal, which includes ALL of your champions. Hence, you would only 'lose' 6 marines.

The problem I see with your proposed changes are:
- I've never heard of Sonic Weapons being that widespread.
- Makes Noise Marines less unique.
- Means that ideally World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons all need similar options, which is difficult to implement.
This would then make the warbands rule more complicated and favour god-dedicated armies.
- Replacing Bolters for chainaxes isn't really a difficult choice considering the World Eater preference for close combat.
- You speak like it was the actual Codex, if it was then it would be entirely reasonable to assume that the Noise Marines would get a new kit, with appropriate amounts of sonic weaponry.
- Allowing non Noise-Marine units to use Sonic Blasters doesn't change your Noise Marine units.

I have never said that I am dead set on keeping Noise Marines Sonic Weapons exclusive, I have simply said (and still do so) that I see little (that little being modelling) reason why they shouldn't and you keep arguing the same point rather than address this or the other issues I've raised. I repeatedly say I'm not refuting your opinion and I welcome all feedback, but again, I need you to work with me here; reiterating your complaint doesn't change it without addressing the issues I keep raising.

Honestly, I'm trying to be very patient here and I have a lot of other things to do, and I AM willing to listen to your opinion, but I need you to work with me and address the issues I raise, not just your own.

@JustDave
Could you make a new thread for your Codex Eldar?
Thanks

Some time in the near future GWS releases 6th edition rulebook and a 6th edition codex space marine soon follows. The space marine codex is appealing to the masses because it better handles the new edition and resolves some issues that were long standing complaints about the 5th edition codex; scout marines can now take specialist weaponry and imperial guard can fight along marines, and each primary chapter are given specialized rules. One issue of strong concern was that in the new codex space marines squads lost the ability to take flamers and multi-meltas. A group of marine players brought this issue to a GWS representative:

Space Marine Player: Listen, we have some concern that our marine squads are not allowed to have multi-meltas or flamers anymore.
GWS: Flamers, multi-meltas, why would you want them? Plasma rifles and lascannons are much better options.

Space Marine Player: Well, it is just that many of us use them in our squads and we don’t know why that option was taken away from us. Many salamander marine players were heavily encouraged in the past to take these weapons via background fluff and our armies are heavily based on this theme.
GWS: Those weapons are completely inferior to the other options available to the marines. This is only a minor change that is for the best of the new codex and most people won’t be effected.

Space Marine Player: Well I know I field six squads of marines with flamers and multi-meltas. In fact my entire army is kind of heavily reliant on those squads - in appearance, my established background, and the way I conduct it in a game.
GWS: So say the multi-meltas are lascannons and the flamers are plasma rifles problem solved.

Space Marine Player: That really doesn’t appeal to me, I like playing WYSIWYG.
GWS: So do a weapon swap, I don’t see why this is so difficult for you.

Space Marine Player: Well I like my models the way I made them. And that doesn’t address the fact that I don’t want to change my flamers to plasma rifles. I always had the option of taking a plasma rifle and went with the flamer. This change is really messing with my current army and the armies of other marine players.
GWS: Why are you making such a big deal over six models, so what if you can’t have flamer armed marines anymore? Just work with us here. Put the multi-melta marines into two devastator squads problem solved.

Space Marine Player: That’s not really the point. I created my Salamander army so the units could to operate together on the table, my squads were outfitted with their equipment for a reason with the entire army in mind. I, as well as other space marine players, kinda want to know why we can’t do this anymore.
GWS: Just work with us, the changes of a new codex can upset some armies, adapting to those changes is just part of the progress. If you need to have the flamer models just use them as scouts. One of the changes we made in the new codex is that we gave marine scouts the ability to take flamers - Just put your flamer armed models in scout units.

Space Marine Player: Well first off I don’t have scouts and I don’t really want to play them. My flamer models are space marines, I want to use them in my space marine squads.
GWS: You are making a big deal about nothing, this codex is far better than the 5th edition codex and resolves many issues that 6th edition introduces.

Space Marine Player: This really isn’t about the codex as a whole, its just that this one change has a very big negative impact on our armies and it seems really easy to fix. If you don’t want to impact the dark angels, templars, and white scar armies, and all the rest of the chapters why not just make a small rule so the salamander chapter squads can switch out their plasma rifles for flamers for 5 points and their heavy bolters for multi-meltas for 10 points; that is a compromise that allows there players who really want those weapons to keep them in their army and not impact the other chapters in anyway.
GWS: Just work with us here.

Space Marine Player: Look all we are really asking for is that under space marines you give the option for them to purchase multi-meltas and flamers. These were options in the last codices and it is very much established in the fluff that marine squads are armed with flamers and multi-meltas - We really don’t see why these weapons were taken from us. And we really don’t see why it is such a big deal that space marines squads be allowed to have flamers and multi-meltas.
GWS: Come on who really uses marines with flamers. Just change your army to match the new codex. Or play counts as, or do a weapon swap, why are you being so difficult here? Codices change all the time; Grey Knights can’t have stormtroopers anymore, that’s a much bigger change than taking away your flamers and like we said before just put all your multi-meltas into devastators or use them as lascannons. See all these solutions we thought of for this issue? How about some compromise on your part?

Space Marine Player: Listen, my army is constructed the way I like it. My army composition is based on my tactical approach and based heavily on well established fluff as a theme army. These changes you keep advocating might allow me keep my miniatures on the table but it completely alters my army’s appearance, forces me to use units I have no desire to play, and completely changes how my army will operate in a game. Many if not most marine armies are hurt by this change; in fact I just ran a poll and 80% of all the salamander marine squads have either a flamer or multi-melta, all these units are no longer permitted in the new codex. The marine kits are sold with flamers - the picture of the box art even depicts a marine model equipped with a flamer. There doesn’t seem to be any point in depriving the marines of this weapon - which has always been consider a basic armament for them.
GWS: We already gave you many options on how to resolve your problem and we might get get around to changing the kit.

Space Marine Player: Look perhaps if you were to explain why we can’t have flamers or multi-meltas in our squads. All you did was remove an option. Who does it hurt that we can use these weapons? In what way is this new codex negatively effected by our marines keeping their weaponry? In short what is your justification for telling us that we have to change our armies to this new paradigm of flamerless, multi-meltaless marines? Where is the benefit in this change?
GWS: You’re really not listening to us here, we really can’t go on like this with you ignoring our points. It’s only six marines after all.

Space Marine Player: Well I guess I said as much as I possible can be said regarding this issue. Looks like I am going to stick to playing the 5th edition codex or the salamander datafax until the 6.5 codex comes out.

I got an idea

Why not write your own fandex? Or just tweak this one? Its not like this is OFFICIAL YOU MUST USE THIS or Dave will come and take away your models

I dont see any problems anyways

orz192 wrote:@JustDave
Could you make a new thread for your Codex Eldar?
Thanks

Yeah, don't worry man, I will do when it's closer to release as it were of course. As it is, I'm just dropping a few teasers in here (and people are welcome to ask questions about it) and then when the Codex is closer to 'release' I'll create a new thread for it.

------------

Grunt, again, don't reply in some obtuse manner that doesn't address the issues I raise.
Some hypothetical example isn't the point in question, things like that make assumptions about my viewpoint and reasoning (akin to 'strawman' arguments), whereas you could simply address the issues I raised rather than indirectly avoid them.

I have repeatedly raised issues with the idea you propose (which, again, I have quoted here) and you haven't addressed them.
You almost addressed the modelling solutions I raised just now, but are still yet to comment on things from my, the developers, perspective and frankly, I've considered your viewpoint and have apologised for your issues and I've pointed out why I'm reluctant to change it, but considered doing so. And this is what I get as a response?

Finally, you say:

Grunt13 wrote: Look perhaps if you were to explain why we can’t have flamers or multi-meltas in our squads.

I have.

I've just spent most of the day working and am now going to attend to the upcoming Eldar Codex, what you're saying isn't beneficial to me, you or solving the solution you've raised. If you want me to change this Codex like you describe, then you need to address the issues I raise rather than just your own.

Grunt, no flamers or multimeltas is a big change of playstyle and strongly counters the fluff of salamanders. I would complain about that. But noise wepons as a standard wepon is a good change because then you dont have to mix wepons in a squad. Instead of having Noise Marines - [mixed mepon type] you can have Noise Marines - [Sonic Weponry] and Chosen w/ mark of Slaanesh (count as Noise Marines) - [Bolters] wich is more comfortable gamewise and fits the fluff ok. And as kenshin620 pointed out its a FanDex and not in any way official. Just make your own change to it.

Latest Version of the Codex is up in the opening post.

A few changes are included:
- Ahriman no longer auto-casts, but may re-roll any D6 for a psychic test.
- Inferno Bolts don't receive negative modifiers for glancing hits.
- Khorne Bezerkers may take 2 flamers for 5pts.
- Any Havoc Unit within an Emperors Children warband may replace their Warp Cannon with a Blast Master for free.

-----------

As ever, all feedback, comments and constructive criticism are welcome.

Thanks, Dave.

VERY well written. Simply brilliant stuff here! Love the special rules, like Death Guardian, Serpents Head, that really bring out the character of the legions with their unique special rules.
Sqallum

Yay! Blast master Havocs!

I must say I love this codex. I only have one tiny problem, the champions can't take twin-linked bolters. I just found that a bit odd.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the kind words! I'm glad you like it. Thanks!

VIth Legion, the twin-linked Bolter option was removed, both as an oversight and then in retrospect, no-one really took them (particularly compared to some other options) as it was anyway. May I ask if you used them?

Yeah I do. I was mostly asking because I was trying to include First Claw in my army. Also, I tend to run shooting squads, so the re-roll can help.

That's fair enough man, it shouldn't be too hard or change anything to re-add it to the Codex, it'll be there in the next update.

Thanks!

Great work here!

So has GW contacted you yet to work on the new CSM codex?

I hope so! while i think theres too many chaos icons available and some of the lords choices of equipment gets quite heavy... I will say the CSM dex needs a bit of an overhaul or at least point adjustments.

I will never take Noise marines, their far too expensive.
i will never take Tzneetch marines, far too expensive.

I will always take khorne berzerkers, their my best CC.
I will always take plague marines, their my best ranged.

CSM are iffy, they just die the moment they see something coming at them.

I've read the new Dark Eldar Codex, and the new Necron Codex, and I play with a lot of Orkz and Space Marine players and I feel they get some really neat things, very cool things.. that do not cost very much. Every Chaos HQ is very expensive and often does not benefit his unit what so ever.

I love everything about chaos but I'll say I feel to be competitive I can't be anything but a Demon Prince, or Khorne/Plague marines. Forget trying to shoot things, with thunderfury cannons, plasma cannon devestators, HQ's that can best me in CC and get orbital bombardments and blood talons mess me up. I know we have older versions of the loyalists gear.. But wheres my plague dreadnaught? noise-a-naught?

I'm going to assume that you're talking about Dave's codex here, decoste. As such I will point out:
Noise Marines are actually two points cheaper than in the other dex. They also out-shoot Plague Marines.
The Thousand Sons have a 8/9 success rate against anything which doesn't ignore their armour. And a Sorcerer.
CSM are pretty versatile and will only die if the thing coming at them is GK or something.

Dreadnoughts can be equipped with Blastmasters.

I'm talking about this Codex vs the actual CSM codex. When i saw blast masters I got excited =) Things that make chaos feel more chaotic... cult dreadnoughts =) And Noise should outshoot plague marines anyday, their meatshield

thevirus wrote:So has GW contacted you yet to work on the new CSM codex?

Not YET...

Durza wrote:I'm going to assume that you're talking about Dave's codex here, decoste. As such I will point out:
Noise Marines are actually two points cheaper than in the other dex. They also out-shoot Plague Marines.
The Thousand Sons have a 8/9 success rate against anything which doesn't ignore their armour. And a Sorcerer.
CSM are pretty versatile and will only die if the thing coming at them is GK or something.

Dreadnoughts can be equipped with Blastmasters.

Cheers for the response Durze, appreciate it man!

-----------

The PDF Codex has been updated to include a Twin-linked Boltgun option for HQ's and Aspiring Champions.

The Eldar Codex is also coming along very well, with lots of progress being made recently. My prediction for it being out before December should stand true...

-----------

As ever, all C&C is welcome.

Just Dave wrote:

The Eldar Codex is also coming along very well, with lots of progress being made recently. My prediction for it being out before December should stand true...

Oh good, that means more sneak peaks right?

Well, let me put it like this Amanax. Choose a number between 2 and 4545*.

*Yes that is meant to be thousand...