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How about the Slanesh marines get the equivalent of the onslaught psychic power from the nids codex; maybe make them pass an Initiative Test, then they can run and shoot in their shooting phase, no assault unless they are also fleet?


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Hmm, and maybe give zerks the ability to at any point in the game trade Furious Charge for a permanent +1 S and I, and they then suffer from Rage?


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well, maybe at the start of any turn.

Have you thought about subtracting one from the S of ranged attacks against the Rubric Marines? Would make it harder for massed fire to hurt them, without affecting heavy weapons much if at all.

Sorry Red, but what was the point you were trying to make again? That they should have Sonic Blasters as optional?
If so, then as it is it rounds out their points to equal the others, is superior to the Boltgun and therefore would be taken instead if optional and - as you said - is there defining characteristic? As you also said, in the current Codex they are over-priced; hence they're much less so here...

No, I'm still waiting for an actual argument as to why Noise marines don't get the defining feature of their cult as standard when every other cult does. Blight grenades, chainaxes, inferno bolts aren't optional extras.. why are sonic guns ?

... However, it still remains that - unlike with defilers - the CSM's do not have the resources to build more pred's and vindi's (do they?! STC?) although Storm of Iron is a good example. However, a Single Warband of Iron Warriors still had 600+ Defilers - significantly more.

Also, whilst yes, it would help renegades step away from daemonic engines, it also suggests that renegades have even more tanks then their loyalist counterparts who don't field in squadrons.

Of course the CSMs can make new tanks. The Dark Mechanicus and captured forge worlds constantly produce new tanks, titans, armour etc etc. Plus of course they steal and pillage from the loyalist forces too.

The same way that, apparently, iron warriors are capable of stealing Basilisks, tanks that they cannot fit into to drive, steer or fire and have no regular munitions for.

Finally, whilst I fully admit my strongest point most certainly is not the rules of the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Defilers already ignore Shaken and Stunned Results and therefore do not gain this from Squadrons, whilst they can still be destroyed as the result of immobilisation. Unlike Pred's/Vindi's which would now be able to ignore shaken and stunned and therefore gain a benefit Defilers miss out on?
I dunno, I'm sorry but I'm still unconvinced as to why Preds or Vindi's should be squadrons, particularly in comparison to defilers

Not quite. Squadrons downgrade stunned ( may not move or shoot) to shaken ( may not shoot but may move). Defilers, of course disregard both these affects, as would any Possessed tank. If you look at the way you can assign hits to a squadron I think squadrons of constantly moving and shooting is bit overpowered. they'd be too many turns where a hail of shooting did nothing assuming you could even get past the higher AV of a predator or vindicator anyway.

Have to say that these rules are pretty cool. Just skimmed through them and liked what I saw.

One comment on the lack of god specific numbers in squads giving any kind of reward - had you thought about including it at all?

OK guys, Version 1.2 is up; made some relatively minor changes and some more serious ones:
- Rubric Marines - Sorcerers Warcoven - Blast Masters - Auxiliary Writing (STILL VERY UNSURE ABOUT ITS WORDING HOWEVER) - Special Characters Changed (Kharn and DP) - Termies can take LR as a Dedicated Transport.

If people could also consider my proposed changed to the Legions special rule at the bottom of page 1, that'd be great too. Thanks guys.

Still, all constructive criticism, comments (positive or negative), army lists and general feedback is appreciated. Cheers.

As for the comments:

crazypsyko666 wrote:I'm not really sure I like the rewrite of the Legion rule. The whole point is to define the army and its composition, and allocating these rules to individual units means two things: That it could easily be abused by selecting the best possible options for each army, and two, that it still makes things pretty confusing. I'd take the two legions thing over that any day.

OK, cheers. It would still be limited to Legion Marks only being available if there is a HQ choice with the same mark, but thanks for the feedback.

Bromsy wrote:How about the Slanesh marines get the equivalent of the onslaught psychic power from the nids codex; maybe make them pass an Initiative Test, then they can run and shoot in their shooting phase, no assault unless they are also fleet?


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Hmm, and maybe give zerks the ability to at any point in the game trade Furious Charge for a permanent +1 S and I, and they then suffer from Rage?

Personally I'm fairly happy with the profiles of Zerkers, Noise Marines and Plague Marines as it stands. As characterful as your proposals are, I believe they'd add further complication without needing so. Thank you nonetheless.

reds8n wrote: No, I'm still waiting for an actual argument as to why Noise marines don't get the defining feature of their cult as standard when every other cult does. Blight grenades, chainaxes, inferno bolts aren't optional extras.. why are sonic guns ?

Oh, well in that case then I think something has gone wrong down the line as they've always had Sonic Blasters as Standard in my codex.

Not quite. Squadrons downgrade stunned ( may not move or shoot) to shaken ( may not shoot but may move). Defilers, of course disregard both these affects, as would any Possessed tank. If you look at the way you can assign hits to a squadron I think squadrons of constantly moving and shooting is bit overpowered. they'd be too many turns where a hail of shooting did nothing assuming you could even get past the higher AV of a predator or vindicator anyway.

OK, well sorry Red but personally I'm still unconvinced as to Squadrons being included. Normal Space Marine Codices don't have a problem and I struggle to see a similar problem emerging here?

SilverMK2 wrote:Have to say that these rules are pretty cool. Just skimmed through them and liked what I saw.

One comment on the lack of god specific numbers in squads giving any kind of reward - had you thought about including it at all?

Thank you Silver, it's appreciated.
Well, the specific cult units do get bonuses for their 'magic numbers' if that is satisfactory for you?

Sorry, totally missed that

[/reading fail]

I think that Ahriman should be a able to do 4 or even 5 powers a turn. He should be AT LEAST as good as Mephiston in this area.

Been reading it over, also Ahriman maybe not T6 with an invun But yeah I think slaanesh needs a little more as the others over shadow it a little

Two things about auxiliaries now that I understand them. Simply say you can't have more auxiliaries than normal troops, and secondly, label them. Put a star next to their names, a cross, something to indicate that they have specific rulings that need to be adressed.

I haven't gone through all the slots & exact wording, but at first it seems like you put a lot of effort into presenting us with something that captures pretty well the character of a CSM Army, so for me it's a great tool!

My only concern, from my point of view, is that for a lot of the units, your changes are "cheaper & better".
Though this is your work, and even though some units in the current Codex are clearly overpriced, you'll definitely have some difficulties to make your adversaries accept a list that has more efficient troops for less points!

I hope you get my point, you did an awesome amount of work, it's just that it looks too "biased" for it to be a valid change.

Good luck!!

Yggdrasil wrote:I haven't gone through all the slots & exact wording, but at first it seems like you put a lot of effort into presenting us with something that captures pretty well the character of a CSM Army, so for me it's a great tool!

My only concern, from my point of view, is that for a lot of the units, your changes are "cheaper & better".
Though this is your work, and even though some units in the current Codex are clearly overpriced, you'll definitely have some difficulties to make your adversaries accept a list that has more efficient troops for less points!

I hope you get my point, you did an awesome amount of work, it's just that it looks too "biased" for it to be a valid change.

Good luck!!

I think it melds pretty well with the power creep of the day.

SilverMK2 wrote:Sorry, totally missed that

[/reading fail]

It's all right man, not everyone can afford an education these days...

phantommaster wrote:I think that Ahriman should be a able to do 4 or even 5 powers a turn. He should be AT LEAST as good as Mephiston in this area.

Sorry man, but I don't think anyone short of a Daemon Prince should be matching Mephiston.

necronsftw wrote:Been reading it over, also Ahriman maybe not T6 with an invun But yeah I think slaanesh needs a little more as the others over shadow it a little

Thanks, I'll look into this, but if you could possibly point out some 'specifics' as it were, that'd be good thanks.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Two things about auxiliaries now that I understand them. Simply say you can't have more auxiliaries than normal troops, and secondly, label them. Put a star next to their names, a cross, something to indicate that they have specific rulings that need to be adressed.

Yeah, I'll put that about Auxiliaries. Good idea.
All Auxiliary units do have Auxiliary in their profiles, but I may add that in as-well.
Cheers Psyko.

Yggdrasil wrote:I haven't gone through all the slots & exact wording, but at first it seems like you put a lot of effort into presenting us with something that captures pretty well the character of a CSM Army, so for me it's a great tool!

My only concern, from my point of view, is that for a lot of the units, your changes are "cheaper & better".
Though this is your work, and even though some units in the current Codex are clearly overpriced, you'll definitely have some difficulties to make your adversaries accept a list that has more efficient troops for less points!

I hope you get my point, you did an awesome amount of work, it's just that it looks too "biased" for it to be a valid change.

Good luck!!

Thank you man, I appreciate the kind words and understanding.
Yes, as you said, I have put a lot of work into it and I would like to think it does capture the feel well, so thank you.

Do not worry about your concern though, it's perfectly reasonable and you were polite about it!
I can completely understand the concern though and it's been something I'd like to avoid, so I will certainly look into it. I intend to have a big ol' re-read over the whole thing again soon to make sure I think it's all OK as I simply haven't had the time since adding the latest 'updates', so yes, I will certainly look into this.

As I said though, I appreciate the criticism (honest!) and I will look into it. However, if you could point out any specific examples, that would be great thanks!
Of course, any other input you may have would be welcome too!

Although, as Psyko said, I is intended to be a 5th Edition Codex, so obviously there will be a certain amount of power-creep, but I don't want it being the next SW or BA Codex. However, being a Fandex, balance is often the most tenuous issue as I'm sure you're aware...

But yes, I will look into it of course, but if you could provide any further input into this or other matters, that would be great.
However, I think I may (maybe not all) increase Cult Units to 23pts each...


Also, just for reference/balance:

- 10x Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Multimelta, Rhino, Powerfist - 235pts (??)
- 10x Grey Hunters, 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Powerfist - 215pts

- 10x Chaos Space Marines, 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Powerfist (Champion) - 235pts
- 7x Plague Marines, 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Powerfist (Champion) - 234pts
- 8x Khorne Bezerkers, Rhino, Powerfist (Champion) - 236pts

Just made a few (relatively minor) changes:

- CSM's are now up to 16pts - they're still a good unit, however I think they can be a bit too cheap when combined with Legion freebies. Hopefully not now.

- Rubric and Plague Marines increased to 23pts each. Considering doing the same to Noise Marines and Zerkers.

- Raptor Champion can take twin lightning claws.

- Kind of considering adding a couple of other options such as a Defiler Variant with a cannon akin to the D-cannon, replacing all other weapons and reducing it's attacks. This would basically make it a walking dark-mechanicum gun-platform that is ruined by a single Weapon Destroyed and if destroyed would auto-explode...
Couple of other ideas floating around, maybe allowing Bikers as troops if the Chaos Lord is on a bike (C: SM) and another Elite and/or Fast Attack option would be nice.
Also considering Renegade special rules.
Nothing seriously considered yet though...

As ever, all opinions are appreciated. Thanks

You know what I want? I want actual goddamn Daemons in the codex, not some stupid 'Roll a D6' crap. How am I expected to have a decent lord of change with my Thousand Sons if I can't decide which Greater Daemon I'm buying!?

Looks cool, will probably test it out some time. My Berzerkers thank you for the open topped Rhinos

Little thing I found though; in the heretics entry it says they can get an extra special weapon if the squad numbers 10 models, while 10 is the minimum. I guess that should say 20.

crazypsyko666 wrote:You know what I want? I want actual goddamn Daemons in the codex, not some stupid 'Roll a D6' crap. How am I expected to have a decent lord of change with my Thousand Sons if I can't decide which Greater Daemon I'm buying!?

I'm not sure what you are on about? Several times I've discussed the design of the Daemons and the difficulty in implementing them. Seriously, what are you talking about?

TiB wrote:Looks cool, will probably test it out some time. My Berzerkers thank you for the open topped Rhinos

Little thing I found though; in the heretics entry it says they can get an extra special weapon if the squad numbers 10 models, while 10 is the minimum. I guess that should say 20.

Thanks man, any playtesting is appreciated. Zerkers may be heading up to 23pts however, but we'll see.
But yes, I shall change the heretic profile. Cheers.


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Actually, I have just increased the points costs of all Cult Units to 23pts, I fear this may a bit too much for some, but I will have to wait and see.
Ultimately, the Cult Units are less common in number and this can represent this. Khorne Bezerkers suffer the biggest change as a result of this, however in my version they can ignore armour saves (potentially) and do have access to open-topped rhinos.

I mean, I want to be able to choose between a bloodletter or a horror, a Lord of Change and a Great Unclean one.

(Wow, that was a really incoherent rant before... I'll try to make more sense when I'm a rage-filled Daemons fanboy next time).

Not sure what you mean. I think Just Dave has done a pretty elegant job of distinguishing all the different brands of daemon from each other without making the Chaos Daemons codex seem too redundant. Bloodletter? Lesser Daemon with MoK, Horror? Lesser Daemon with MoT. You want a Lord of Change? Use the Lord of Change model and give the thing a Mark of Tzeench.

You know, I should probably stop while I'm ahead of myself and try to forget my previous two posts. I'd probably just end up wanting to put Codex: Daemons inside of the CSM book. Ignoring me on this is probably the best idea right now.

crazypsyko666 wrote:I'd probably just end up wanting to put Codex: Daemons inside of the CSM book.

Don't we all...

TiB wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:I'd probably just end up wanting to put Codex: Daemons inside of the CSM book.

Don't we all...

I guess you're right, TiB...

crazypsyko666 wrote:I mean, I want to be able to choose between a bloodletter or a horror, a Lord of Change and a Great Unclean one.

(Wow, that was a really incoherent rant before... I'll try to make more sense when I'm a rage-filled Daemons fanboy next time).

Thank you TiB, I appreciate the support.

As for the Daemons Crazy, although you seem to have calmed down over the matter, I'll explain to you the reasoning behind it.
When I first created the Codex, as you'll see when you read some of my posts, I would've liked to make the Daemons a straight-up copy and paste from their own Codex, providing consistency and simplicity and yet allowing the Daemons Codex to remain exclusive due to its won rules and units.

However, as soon as I started adding them to the army list I saw the Chaos Daemons to be too powerful to be straight up added into the Codex. The most serious flaw the Daemons face in their Codex is that they have to weather at least one turn of shooting when they arrive and that you have less control in when (and where) they arrive. Although this flaw works well to balance them within their own Codex, it would be almost entirely removed under the process of summoning.
You would now have Daemons appearing right in the face of the opposing player, leaving them with little opportunity to stop such specialised infantry. One of the reasons that Bloodletters and Daemonettes, otherwise excellent assault units, are criticised is that they are fragile. If they arrive following the rules of summoning for Chaos Space Marines, than unless they turn up at the worst possible moment, this fragility won't matter and they'll be in the perfect place to easily assault the enemy for no handicap. It just simply wouldn't be balanced. You'd have multi-attack, furious charging Bloodletters equipped with Power weapons appearing right in front of your lines and charging into combat without having to weather any fire.

A similar situation would occur for Greater Daemons. In the current Chaos Space Marine Codex, although they are superior to the Daemon Prince in stat-line, they aren't taken as often because they lack the manoeuvrability. Models ported straight from the Daemons Codex are absolute killing machines with the Lord of Change and Bloodthirster both having Wings. As with the Lesser Daemons, there would be no drawback to having the Daemons like this. They would appear close to the enemy lines and be able to get straight into combat with no disregard or harm to themselves.

Obviously, I didn't want this clear lack of balance so I intended to change this, proposing several methods:
- Have them unable to charge the turn they arrive.
- Have a Daemonic Instability rule, whereby D3/6 Wounds are removed upon arrival.
- Increase the points cost throughout
- Change them to lesser Daemons with marks.

Obviously, I settled on permitting Marks to be selected. Ultimately, this (hopefully) kept the units balanced and still thematic. This also seemed to be other peoples preferred result too. One of the flaws with Daemons atm are their genericness, this method hopefully solves that, keeps them balanced and fluffy and ultimately cuts down on FoC over-load which would've also been a problem.

I can understand your concerns, but hopefully you can see why I've made it as it is...

Yeah I've never understood why they hadn't put the marks for Daemons in the official codex. Such an easy yet elegant solution.

Thank you for the explanation. I probably should have just read the initial green text, though. You've definitely done a great job with the codex, and the Daemons are no exception. I'm just a ranting Daemons fanboy right now. I couldn't help it!

Bump.

... What?

Thsi looks really good. I will have to try and write a list and play test it.


Any chance of a PDF/Word doc format for DL?

Right, Changes have been made:

Most noticeable of which; I've added Chaos Renegades as a 'Legion' and reworded Legion to state Warbands and hopefully be a bit clearer.

I'm not quite entirely happy with the Renegades rules, but I'll see what you guys think.Thanks man, that would be greatly appreciated!



@Praxiss:

Yes, hopefully in the near future there will be, there's still some changes to be done to this version first, but yes, a PDF will likely be created at some point.

Thanks.

Am i reading it wrong or can Obliterators choose a gun from one list, then choose another gun from the second list instead of going into CC?

Nope, you're reading it correctly. I intended for it to potentially provide slightly more firepower but also render them vulnerable in close combat.

Obviously however, a PF can simply be chosen instead.

This is fantastically well written and seems pretty decent. I don't play chaos but I'd like to try play testing against somebody using this codex, just for a change.

Just Dave wrote:
3. Cypher the Fallen
a. WS 6/BS 6/S 4/T 4/W 2/I 5/A 3/Ld 10/3+4++
b. Unit Type: Independent Character (Unique).[/b]
i. Fearless, Stealth, Master Pistolier, Fallen, Unidentifiable.
ii. Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs.
c. Master Pistolier – Cypher may fire both pistols in the same shooting phase. Furthermore in each turn, Cypher may either fire both pistols twice in the shooting phase or wield them in close combat, allowing him to fight with a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Cypher also counts as only ever firing one shot for the purposes of Gets Hot!.
d. Fallen – If in close combat against a unit from Codex: Dark Angels then Cypher, the unit of Chosen he is in and any Dark Angels Units in the same combat gain the Preferred Enemy USR.
e. Unidentifiable – Cypher can never be Captured or count as any Victory of Kill Points. Furthermore, Cypher cannot be singled out by any ranged attacks by special rules such as Mind War, Sergeant Telion’s Eye of Vengeance, Vindicare Assassins, etc.

This is amazing for a Dark Angels player and fan! Finally, some decent rules for him!!