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For anyone interested, a PDF version is currently being constructed and I'll be sure to attach it when it's complete.

There will be some minor changes from the PDF version to what you see here, but nothing substantial.
As ever, all comments are welcome. Thanks.

You really made a HUGE and nice work here. I support it: for Chaos!!! ^^

A question: what about mixing warbands in a single army, about the special rules? I mix Iron Warriors and Death Guard.

Thank you man. I've tried to make that part as simple as I can without ruining it and hopefully it's explained fully in the OP, however basically, you would need 1 HQ choice for each Warband, then any units would be allocated as belonging to a certain warband and would gain that Warband's (and only that warbands) rules.

For example, if you had 2 Chaos Space Marine Squads and allocated one to Death Guard and one to Iron Warriors, then:

- ONLY the Iron Warriors one would have access to cheaper lascannons/multimeltas.
- ONLY the Death Guard one could get IoN for 5pts less and be affected by Death Guardian etc.

Thanks for the compliment, I hope that helps!

Thank you! I hope we'll see your ideas in the next CSM codex ^^

Can't wait to see the new .pdf form of the 'dex!

I'd love to see a more interactive digital codex sometime (from GW), one with a built-in army builder, preferably. But that's probably just another techie wet-dream of mine

One tiny thing I think should be added is that Chaos HQ:s of Tzeentch (maybe not DP:s) should be able to buy Inferno bolts. How does that sound? Otehrwise I like this very much, though I did find it entertaining when Hakanor was in the list.

I've been looking over the Army-wide Special Rules again, and I'm missing the -Ld modification. It would be reasonable if it was a simple -1 Ld, instead of an obviously overpowering -2, maybe to a minimum of 7 or something like that. It would require playtesting, but I think it has a lot more flavor than their second bonus which promotes MSUs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the .pdf, how are you organizing the Legions/Warbands? Are all of the specific abilities and upgrades going in the page intended for the legion itself, or should we expect something similar to what is seen in the forum?

Saintspirit wrote:One tiny thing I think should be added is that Chaos HQ:s of Tzeentch (maybe not DP:s) should be able to buy Inferno bolts. How does that sound? Otehrwise I like this very much, though I did find it entertaining when Hakanor was in the list.

Thank you man. I too liked Hakanor, however I do believe the latest DP dude has better character in terms of what he adds to the army. But Hakanor was a nice nod to the fluff IMHO. But hey, peoples opinions were recieved and Hakanor ditched...
As for the Doom Bolts, it's a good idea but I'm really not sure about it; I can't imagine it getting much use. Only the Lords and Champions would use it (Sorcerers have Doom Bolt for example) and I'm not sure it would add much...

crazypsyko666 wrote:I've been looking over the Army-wide Special Rules again, and I'm missing the -Ld modification. It would be reasonable if it was a simple -1 Ld, instead of an obviously overpowering -2, maybe to a minimum of 7 or something like that. It would require playtesting, but I think it has a lot more flavor than their second bonus which promotes MSUs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the .pdf, how are you organizing the Legions/Warbands? Are all of the specific abilities and upgrades going in the page intended for the legion itself, or should we expect something similar to what is seen in the forum?

Sorry Psyko, I'm unsure as to what you're referring to in your main comment? Of course, the feedback is appreciated, but I ideally need to know what you're giving feedback on!

As for the PDF. chances are it'll be similar to how it is in the forum, hopefully a bit clearer though, but I believe it would be far too unwieldy to have separate sections for each IMHO...

Oh, stupid me, I was referring to the Night Lords, of course. I enjoyed the way their terror tactics were represented in-game.

Also, have you read the third edition Chaos Codex?

Aaah, OK. Well, as you may have seen, I've changed it to 3D6 as I personally believe this to be fairer than -2 and still harsher than -1. As for the encouragement of MSU's, this is OK with me. Unlike Space Marines, CSM's cannot 'spam' Razorbacks, as such their is significantly less harm in MSU's. Furthermore, Night Lords are known for being a heavily depleted Legion who often fight in understrength squads, as shown in Soul Hunter.

And yes, I have.

That would make sense, and I'd definitely encourage playtesting and messing around blah blah blah encourage playtesting spiel.

It's a lovely book, ain't it?

As for the Doom Bolts, it's a good idea but I'm really not sure about it; I can't imagine it getting much use. Only the Lords and Champions would use it (Sorcerers have Doom Bolt for example) and I'm not sure it would add much...

No no, you misunderstand. I meant inferno bolts, the ammunition, not the psychic power doombolt. I figured that if the regular thousand sons had their bolters loaded with Inferno Bolts, then so would their leaders.

Sorry, I did infact understand but i wrote Doombolt instead of Inferno Bolts!
As I tried to say, I think INFERNO () Bolts is a good idea, however I can't imagine it being of much use. Sorcerers and DP's can use DOOMbolt and would therefore see comparatively little use for it, whilst I can't imagine Lords or Champions purchasing INFERNO Bolts as they don't really add much extra IMHO.

As I said, it's a nice idea, but I don't think it's really necessary due to how little I could see it adding...

Awesome work and effort on this Just Dave, will have to print out the rules and do a few test games for you asap.

Query with the Heretics option, which is a lovely idea btw, did you consider adding a Heretic Tank, Leman Russ probably with some kind of balancing disadvantage like a Looted Vehicle? To me that will allow even more of a hint of Traitor Guard marching alongside the CSM.

My other query was, any particular reason you went for Icons on the CSM squads over Marks. I know when the CSM book has been discussed before, Icons/Marks has often come up, and it is still the only thing that does my head in.

I'd rather pay more for a mark, than have a guy who takes the bonus if he dies and I know I wasn't the only one the last time we had one of those long CSM fail threads.

Seems okay. I don't really like what you did with kharne at all. You completely removed his ability to wreck face AND you raised his points for that reason? What?

The entire special character section is screwed up, IMO. You left ahriman completely useless at 230 points, and tyhpus is still overpriced, not to mention there's absolutely no reason to take lucius (Still) without a blissgiver. At least you gave most of them Eternal Warrior, which was the main problem with them.

Reading on...


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Okay! After reading the whole thing, I love everything except kharne. You fixed basically everything I could imagine

One thing.... Could you let havocs take plasma cannons?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Awesome work and effort on this Just Dave, will have to print out the rules and do a few test games for you asap.

Query with the Heretics option, which is a lovely idea btw, did you consider adding a Heretic Tank, Leman Russ probably with some kind of balancing disadvantage like a Looted Vehicle? To me that will allow even more of a hint of Traitor Guard marching alongside the CSM.

My other query was, any particular reason you went for Icons on the CSM squads over Marks. I know when the CSM book has been discussed before, Icons/Marks has often come up, and it is still the only thing that does my head in.

I'd rather pay more for a mark, than have a guy who takes the bonus if he dies and I know I wasn't the only one the last time we had one of those long CSM fail threads.

Thanks Morathi, I really appreciate the compliments and feedback, it's nice for this to be getting some interest again. Any test games would be hugely appreciated man. Some of the rules have undergone changes in the PDF. but nothing major.

Ha! Actually, yes I did. I decided against it in the end as I wanted the heretics to remain an auxiliary type unit, so they were an addition to the army rather than a particularly large part. After all, this is Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Renegades. I completely understand what you're saying and of course if you have a good enough argument for it, I may still add in heretic vehicles

I have been toying with removing the auxiliaries rule though, particularly after seeing Grey Knights and how you can make entire armies without... Grey Knights!

As for the Icons, I briefly went over this in the wargear section, but whilst the previous system was in many ways flawed, it still worked well in representing the gods and benefiting deep-strike and summoning. In the army special rules section, I've added a rule whereby the dude with the Icon can (optional) ultimately be the last guy of the unit removed; i.e. any wounds allocated him can be allocated to someone else in the unit (providing there are others left in the unit!). It's like you are saying, and what others have said, it's not like they'd forget which god they were supporting or that they wouldn't simply pick up the Icon.

Aside from fixing this part of it, I kept Icons to still benefit deepstriking and summoning and ultimately for ease of representation. Marks etc. have to be painted on and whatnot, whereas you can simply and quite plainly see which god a unit supports by the icon they're holding aloft. To me, this is even more important in unpainted armies!

Much like the heretics though, if you can provide a good enough argument, I'm happy to change the rules.

Thanks again Morathi, really appreciated man. If you'd prefer it, there's a link to my PDF (WiP) in the DCM forum. Cheers!

Samus_aran115 wrote:Seems okay. I don't really like what you did with kharne at all. You completely removed his ability to wreck face AND you raised his points for that reason? What?

The entire special character section is screwed up, IMO. You left ahriman completely useless at 230 points, and tyhpus is still overpriced, not to mention there's absolutely no reason to take lucius (Still) without a blissgiver. At least you gave most of them Eternal Warrior, which was the main problem with them.

Reading on...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay! After reading the whole thing, I love everything except kharne. You fixed basically everything I could imagine

One thing.... Could you let havocs take plasma cannons?

Thanks for the feedback Samus, I'm unsure from your auto-append post whether you still have issues with the other characters, all feedback (providing it's reasonable) is appreciated.

Nonetheless, I'd believe Kharn's better than he was before. He's gained eternal warrior and attacks equal to the number of models killed (included betrayed ), whilst yes, he's lost hitting on a 2+, that's all he's lost and he still has a copius amount of attacks and WS7 and now he can also take a powerfist to the face. Looking at it however, I will take his points costs down a bit, but if you could point out what's wrong with him, be my guest. Honestly.

As for letting Havocs take Plasma Cannons; Renegade havocs can (as can chosen and CSM's), but Plasma Cannons were not something available on infantry during the HH and that's why they've never been able to field plasma cannons.

Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah, the only issue with the icons/Marks is the fact for the Daemons they are a key thing.

It's a tough one, I do wonder if there would be a way to still make Icons something a unit could take for summoning, and still be worth taking as well.
Maybe do the break ties in CC like Daemons have? I'll consider possibilities, and if anything comes to mind I'll raise it.
Although I do admit it is mainly a personal grumble, I can play the CSM with the rule anyway.

Regardless will have a go playtesting the list, and cheers for the note on the DCM thread, will print one out.

Awesome job, this is possibly the most unique codex I've seen (which isn't saying much, because I've only seen 3...)

Things I might change:
• Black legion being able to take every cult unit with no restriction seems a little OTT, maybe having it up the number to 2 or 3?
• perhaps making the fire frenzy say "Shoots at the nearest enemy unit in LoS twice, if no enemy units are in LoS (out of range counts as in LoS), then dread shoots at nearest friendly unit once." just to keep that little bit of 'I hope it doesn't kill me' mentality that the chaos codex seems to love

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Yeah, the only issue with the icons/Marks is the fact for the Daemons they are a key thing.

It's a tough one, I do wonder if there would be a way to still make Icons something a unit could take for summoning, and still be worth taking as well.
Maybe do the break ties in CC like Daemons have? I'll consider possibilities, and if anything comes to mind I'll raise it.
Although I do admit it is mainly a personal grumble, I can play the CSM with the rule anyway.

Regardless will have a go playtesting the list, and cheers for the note on the DCM thread, will print one out.

Thanks man, I'm thinking more and more about the Marks over Icons now actually. If I do use, I'd likely go for a basic mark with option icon (5pts) which allows summoning/deep-striking. I'll have to give it some more thought and any input on the idea would be appreciated, but I'm saving the rules/wargear in the PDF 'til last so it can be pondered on.
Also what do you mean by the break ties in CC with regards to daemons?

Thanks for the input Morathi, it's appreciated.
Wait... You're in Suffolk?! Where abouts? I didn't realise anyone else lived there!

Computer(Insan) wrote:Awesome job, this is possibly the most unique codex I've seen (which isn't saying much, because I've only seen 3...)

Things I might change:
• Black legion being able to take every cult unit with no restriction seems a little OTT, maybe having it up the number to 2 or 3?
• perhaps making the fire frenzy say "Shoots at the nearest enemy unit in LoS twice, if no enemy units are in LoS (out of range counts as in LoS), then dread shoots at nearest friendly unit once." just to keep that little bit of 'I hope it doesn't kill me' mentality that the chaos codex seems to love

Thanks man, it's appreciated.
I know what you mean about the Black Legion, but I think it should be OK considering it allows the player the most freedom, is no different from the current iteration and actually works counter-intuitive to the free IOCG on the CSM squads, as it encourages you to take both. I know what you mean, but personally I think it should be OK.
As for the Dreadnought, I have been considering that. I'll think about it a bit more and it would make sense. Good idea man, I'll give it some thought.

Cheers for all the feedback guys.

Rendlesham airbase, or what used to be it. Now just plain old Rendlesham, east of Ipswich.

It's what the location 'joke' thing is in my sidebar, the most renowned British UFO sighting happened here years ago.
What, a UFO sighting near what at the time was a fully active US airbase, I'm stunned.


As to the marks, yeah that might work, sorta what the cult troops do now.

The 'Daemon' thing is because I had a wierd feeling 40K daemons had the same advantage that musicians have in fantasy. Although it might just be my brain being scrambled with too many rulesets.


edit - oh and meant to say, have been working on a Heretics squad, once done I'll share a pic.

I really like what you did here, particularly with the warband rules. Nice to see the warband personalities manifest in a fluffy and useful way.
My only beef was that you didn't do anything with the existing chaos psychic powers, which I've always felt are a bit underwhelming when compared to the other dex's. I've always gotten the impression that chaos sorcerers, particularly the thousand sons, would have some of the most devastating powers in the 40k universe

I really like what you did with it. I don't play CSM but a codex like this would almost make me want to.
I wonder if you have gotten any feedback from real play time ...maybe even on Vassal?

I like your attention to both fluff and balance. I was working with a friend at a LGC to revise the numerous inconsistencies in the Tyranid codex (project is on hiatus atm). Its not a complete fandex revision, and we try to not make anything OTT. We have to make them small and simple enough for other players to accept them! However, I'm going to steal some of your methods and thinking that you used in developing this.

My only concern is that more options means more things that will potentially never be used, and more headaches in trying to balance it all. I know its almost impossible to prevent powergamers from gaming something. I think the one thing that irks WH players the most is when the competitive lists are not fluffy at all. I guess I'd like to see some real playtime feedback for final judgment

Just Dave wrote:
I have been toying with removing the auxiliaries rule though, particularly after seeing Grey Knights and how you can make entire armies without... Grey Knights!

I would definitely keep it..maybe even expand on it. I think its an elegant way to solve the problem of including "outside" allied forces..and still be fluffy and balanced. I would make it more flexible and more universal in its wording. A USR like this could be applied to Tau, Inquisition armies, and such

Heres a suggestion in its wording:

I borrowed the Tervigons "The Scuttling Horde" and Poisoned Weapon wording to make this. Again, the idea was to make it more universal and flexible. Not only can it now be used in other armies, but it can be used for units beyond Troops choices ( probably not HQ though...but the possibility is there). Now you can have your Renegade tanks and the like . With the inclusion of the variable fixed number, you can also modify it to more or less depending on balance and/or fluff concerns.

This is great! I was writing my own fandex for CSM, and then came across this, which blew mine out of the water.

Needless to say, my gaming group has already okay'd me using a fandex for my CSM, so I'll use this one!

If you don't have time to create a PDF, I can work on it.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Rendlesham airbase, or what used to be it. Now just plain old Rendlesham, east of Ipswich.

It's what the location 'joke' thing is in my sidebar, the most renowned British UFO sighting happened here years ago.
What, a UFO sighting near what at the time was a fully active US airbase, I'm stunned.


As to the marks, yeah that might work, sorta what the cult troops do now.

The 'Daemon' thing is because I had a wierd feeling 40K daemons had the same advantage that musicians have in fantasy. Although it might just be my brain being scrambled with too many rulesets.


edit - oh and meant to say, have been working on a Heretics squad, once done I'll share a pic.

Feck me! Rendlesham?! That's about 20 mins from my parents, if that. That's really cool to hear tbh, I've never met anyone on Dakka who's from Suffolk. To be fair though, the aliens comment may be more appropriate for Norfolk.

I wouldn't know about the Daemons thing to be honest; not my forte. However, I'll still consider the Marks thing; would make the points costing more awkward, but it would enable me to remove a special rule etc. and it could allow Combat Squads in renegade armies. Hmmm... Will have to think about it. More...

Thanks again for the feedback Morathi.

Tortoiseer wrote:I really like what you did here, particularly with the warband rules. Nice to see the warband personalities manifest in a fluffy and useful way.
My only beef was that you didn't do anything with the existing chaos psychic powers, which I've always felt are a bit underwhelming when compared to the other dex's. I've always gotten the impression that chaos sorcerers, particularly the thousand sons, would have some of the most devastating powers in the 40k universe

Thanks man, appreciate it and your criticism. I know what you mean about the powers, particularly with the power which many of the recent codices have, I tried to be very careful about not making things over-powered, however judging my the feedback I could well up them a bit, I'll get back with a post of potential methods, but any suggestions is welcome thanks.

Tongue wrote:I really like what you did with it. I don't play CSM but a codex like this would almost make me want to.
I wonder if you have gotten any feedback from real play time ...maybe even on Vassal?

I like your attention to both fluff and balance. I was working with a friend at a LGC to revise the numerous inconsistencies in the Tyranid codex (project is on hiatus atm). Its not a complete fandex revision, and we try to not make anything OTT. We have to make them small and simple enough for other players to accept them! However, I'm going to steal some of your methods and thinking that you used in developing this.

My only concern is that more options means more things that will potentially never be used, and more headaches in trying to balance it all. I know its almost impossible to prevent powergamers from gaming something. I think the one thing that irks WH players the most is when the competitive lists are not fluffy at all. I guess I'd like to see some real playtime feedback for final judgment

Just Dave wrote:
I have been toying with removing the auxiliaries rule though, particularly after seeing Grey Knights and how you can make entire armies without... Grey Knights!

I would definitely keep it..maybe even expand on it. I think its an elegant way to solve the problem of including "outside" allied forces..and still be fluffy and balanced. I would make it more flexible and more universal in its wording. A USR like this could be applied to Tau, Inquisition armies, and such

Heres a suggestion in its wording:

Spoiler:

Auxiliary

You can include one Auxiliary unit in your army for every fixed number of non-Auxiliary units taken (usually indicated in brackets) of the same force organization category as the Auxiliary unit.

Example: A Heretic unit has Auxiliary [2] and is a Troops choice. You may choose to take one Heretic unit for every two non-Auxiliary Troops units taken, such as a Khorne Berserker unit and a Chaos Space Marine unit. You may take two Heretic units, if you include four non-Auxillary Troop choices in your army.

I borrowed the Tervigons "The Scuttling Horde" and Poisoned Weapon wording to make this. Again, the idea was to make it more universal and flexible. Not only can it now be used in other armies, but it can be used for units beyond Troops choices ( probably not HQ though...but the possibility is there). Now you can have your Renegade tanks and the like . With the inclusion of the variable fixed number, you can also modify it to more or less depending on balance and/or fluff concerns.

Thank you, I appreciate the feedback. Whilst I don't intend to go quite that route for the wording of auxilliaries, that's definitely a good idea and I'll try and change the wording to suite that, thanks.

Good luck with the Tyranid re-write, god knows they need it and I applaud you for trying it.

I'll keep the auxiliary rule however, as you suggested.
Conversantly however, in making the fandex I've been trying to add character where I can in order to try and separate it more from the existing SM codex. I completely agree that it means some stuff wont be used, but I think as one of the common complaints is that they are simply 'spikey marines' it may be worth it. At the end of this post, I'll list what I've added/removed so far in the fandex so you can see for yourself, but I was certainly reluctant about making it too different or have too many special rules due to my wanting it to be a 'proper' codex as it were. I completely agree with what you're saying of course, however I think the balance is still OK for now at least...

I completely (COMPLETELY) agree with you in regards to the min-maxing thing (eg. Razorbacks/Mech Vet), which I've been sincerely trying to avoid. I don't think it's too easy to do however, especially not like in other Codices at least. You are more than welcome to try and abuse any army-list making and I will too as it is also a genuine concern for me too, but I struggle to see where min/maxing is entirely possible...

Thanks for the feedback.

Keatonic wrote:This is great! I was writing my own fandex for CSM, and then came across this, which blew mine out of the water.

Needless to say, my gaming group has already okay'd me using a fandex for my CSM, so I'll use this one!

If you don't have time to create a PDF, I can work on it.

Thank you very much mate, it's appreciated. You are of course welcome to use it and if you want I can PM you the WiP PDF if you'd rather use that? Thanks.
I just noticed the link in your signature too! Ha! Cheers man, I really appreciate that. SERIOUSLY!

----

As it stands, the changes made in the PDF. version are:
- Abaddon boosts nearby unit morale rather than reduces enemy. MAY possible make all termies in the same army Champions or something similar.
- Raptors can now only take Melta/flamer/grenade/plasma on one in 5 guys, however they may now select a power weapon (15pts) under the above circumstances.
- Predator has access to flamer weaponry
- Chaos Spawn have fleet.
- Ahriman can use one Tome (on himself) per turn.
- Any unit of 5 Terminators that consists of entirely champions (which is now a 10pts upgrade) may select a gift of chaos for certain pts.
- May change the Hellfire cannon to AP D6+1? (Available on Khornate defiler and Predator turret)
- Dreadnoughts will fire frenzy on allies if there are no eligible enemy units.
- Hell Talon's Lascannon's are twin-linked.

All feedback on these possible changes are also welcome of course.

----

Thank you everyone for all the feedback, I can't say how much I appreciate it, but rest assured, it's a LOT. ALL constructive criticism is welcome as I'm trying to make this as good as I can and all positive feedback and playtesting is welcome as it motivates me no-end. Thank you very much everyone. I sincerely appreciate the support.
Dave.

Hello all other supporters!

I've compiled a PDF version that Dave has given me permission to post! It's got everything in the first post, laid out like a traditional codex, if a little cramped.

Feel free to download it and give my PDF-Making Skills critique, lol.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6626237/Just%20Dave%27s%205e%20CSM%20Codex.pdf



Also, for anyone who uses BattleScribe (I very much recommend it! It's a free, open source army builder!) I'm going to make a catalog file that you can use to make a list on your computer.

Just Dave wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:I really like what you did here, particularly with the warband rules. Nice to see the warband personalities manifest in a fluffy and useful way.
My only beef was that you didn't do anything with the existing chaos psychic powers, which I've always felt are a bit underwhelming when compared to the other dex's. I've always gotten the impression that chaos sorcerers, particularly the thousand sons, would have some of the most devastating powers in the 40k universe

Thanks man, appreciate it and your criticism. I know what you mean about the powers, particularly with the power which many of the recent codices have, I tried to be very careful about not making things over-powered, however judging my the feedback I could well up them a bit, I'll get back with a post of potential methods, but any suggestions is welcome thanks.

Dave.[/b][/u]

Well, I think your tome idea is a good start but I think that they don't go far enough. Chaos powers should feel suitably more, well, chaotic. More high risk, high reward than other dex's powers as is in keeping with the high price their sorcerers pay in order to command the essence of the warp and its denizens.
So I always though that it would be a neat mechanic if all chaos psykers had the option to impose penalties or additonal dangers on their impending psychic test in exchange for increasing the lethality of the spell. For example they might have to test with a negative LD modifier and/or increase the chances they might suffer perils.

Having multiple levels of such risk/reward combos would make it even more interesting (I think two additional levels is ideal). Each spell entry in the codex could list its profile and then have the two, more dangerous levels, listed beneath with the adjusted profiles. A more risky version of doombolt could ramp up the number of shots and increase the strength or range. Advanced versions of warptime might grants bonus attacks or increase the users initiative. Winds of chaos could be boosted to 3+ to wound, etc.
To reflect the great skill of a sorcerer like Ahriman (and the fact he's got the book of magnus), he could perhaps cast high level spells with lower level penalties

Anyways, sorry to hit you with all that. Its just something I've thought might help give sorcerers their edge back.

There is no stat listing for the Reaper Autocannon in the .pdf.

crazypsyko666 wrote:There is no stat listing for the Reaper Autocannon in the .pdf.

That would mean it was not in the main post, I believe.

I'll look again, and if I don't see it I'll add the GW Codex version.

Thanks for the heads up!

I didn't reference the statistics for weapons that didn't change.

For example, the Reaper Autocannon didn't change so I didn't list it, whereas the Sonic Blaster did, so I listed it.

I'll edit the OP to include Keatonic's lovely PDF. later and I shall reply to specific posts and emails later too, as I'm a bit busy atm.

Thanks again, particularly to the incredibly generous Keatonic.

To address psychic powers and bring them uptodate.

1. Sorcerers do not pay for powers. They chose them for free. Can cast 1 per turn. 2 if Tzeentch. For 50 pts the sorcerer can cast 2 per turn. 3 if Tzeentch.

2. Demon princes can cast spells but must pay for them.

3. Sorcerers have an added psychic defence. Call it Conduit of Chaos. The effect is that due to the sorcerer being an essence of the warp, any doubles rolled when performing a psychic test result in a perils of the warp test for the opponent. While not as powerful as a psychic hood or rune staff in negating an opponent's psychic tests. It should be a deterrent going from a 1 in 18 chance of a perils test to a 1 in 6 chance of a perils test.

Overall, while leaving the demon prince as a buff MC that can cast spells, it restores a reason to play a chaos sorcerer being cheaper and providing some passive defense.