So, Raven guard, whats up with these guys ?

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**1hadhq**

Wouldn't like to miss FH.

Fascinating when they have to kneel before the one and only true master of Mankind.

So if any critics are valid, ADB should have gone with "corax kills lorgar and the subordinates ( kor P. and erebus ) run the Legion in the name of L. "

As, this Arch heretic isn't neccessary at all, sitting around and writing pamphlets....it wouldn't make a difference without him.

**shrike**

1hadhq wrote:So if any critics are valid, ADB should have gone with "corax kills lorgar and the subordinates ( kor P. and erebus ) run the Legion in the name of L. "

Corax nearly killed Lorgar, but got stopped by Kurze.

**moonshine**

Kan read the book before you talk about it, if you did you would know Corax beats Lorgar but dose not have time to kill him beacuse he wants to know why Lorgar betrayed the emporer. Corax stabs Lorgar but Kurze intervenes and fight Corax whilst Lorgar is in shock, then Corax flies away. Also when it describes what the word beares see when Corax emerges it says he had black wings.

**Kanluwen**

Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?

...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?

**shrike**

Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?

...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?

Or there's the possibility of corax having BLACK MECHANICAL WINGS.

It wasn't a vision- you think a whole few LEGIONS had the same vision?

**moonshine**

They were black and mechanical wings. It specifically says "shimmering wings of black metal reached up from his shoulders" and it was not a vision either.

**Kanluwen**

shrike wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?

...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?

Or there's the possibility of corax having BLACK MECHANICAL WINGS.

Facepalm yourself. His statement fits perfectly with the fact that ADB mentioned quite a bit of the book is supposed to be 'visions that were shown to Lorgar'.

It wasn't a vision- you think a whole few LEGIONS had the same vision?

Because clearly there's no possibility for mass visions in a setting where psychics are commonplace, and Horus was misled by one of the Word Bearers who was shown by the Snake Lodge how to 'spiritwalk'?

Yeah. Think about that one for a minute there.

What's that? You being wrong? Oh. Fun!

**shrike**

Kanluwen wrote:
shrike wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?

...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?

Or there's the possibility of corax having BLACK MECHANICAL WINGS.

Facepalm yourself. His statement fits perfectly with the fact that ADB mentioned quite a bit of the book is supposed to be 'visions that were shown to Lorgar'.

so he had black wings in a vision, but in "reality" he had mechanical wings?
It wasn't a vision- you think a whole few LEGIONS had the same vision?

Because clearly there's no possibility for mass visions in a setting where psychics are commonplace, and Horus was misled by one of the Word Bearers who was shown by the Snake Lodge how to 'spiritwalk'?

Yeah. Think about that one for a minute there.

What's that? You being wrong? Oh. Fun!

I stand corrected there. No need to be so sarky. Remember rule #1.

**Alpharius**

The thingws we argue about!

It is pretty clear that Corax is flying about the battlefield - now, as we know he doesn't have wings ala Sanguinius, he clearly is using some sort of jump pack technology.

It isn't that horrible, is it?

Wait! I'll answer!

No, it isn't!

In fact, you're doing yourself a disservice by NOT reading this book!

**1hadhq**

Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?

...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?

HH, First Heretic.

page 454:

Spoiler:

page 444:

Spoiler:

And?
Interested now in FH?

**Kanluwen**

The only way I find this to be acceptable is if it's something he used the once or as a kind of 'ceremonial' aspect.

Otherwise it's just so bloody stupid.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Wait, so you're saying that it was a vision of Corax emerging with black wings?

...
Which one is it? Mechanical wings or black wings or people just making crap up as they go along to justify them wanting Corax with wings?

HH, First Heretic.

page 454:

Spoiler:

The Raven Lord compensated instantly, his flight pack breathing fire and propelling him back at his brother.
Bladed Wings flashed out on the side, but Lorgar was ready for them. He ignored their scraping, cutting wounds....

See, now that description is much better than the halfassed one I've been getting.

So it's not really "mechanical wings" but it's a "jetpack that has wings attached to it"?

**1hadhq**

Its retractable claws and retractable wings.
So nothing gets in the way until you need the weapons and "unsheath" them.

**Kanluwen**

Yeah, that's much less dumb than "hurr he haz wingz!"

**shrike**

Kanluwen wrote:The only way I find this to be acceptable is if it's something he used the once or as a kind of 'ceremonial' aspect.

Otherwise it's just so bloody stupid.

HH, First Heretic.

page 454:

Spoiler:

**moonshine**

Yeah I horgot about the jump pack, but the fact the wings could retract would prove they are mechanical. But it is still really annoying that he did'nt kill Lorgar

**shrike**

moonshine wrote:Yeah I horgot about the jump pack, but the fact the wings could retract would prove they are mechanical. But it is still really annoying that he did'nt kill Lorgar

yeah, he was one of the most badass primarchs adn the equivalent of a ninja, and he didn't kill a primarch.

**moonshine**

I was so p***ed of that he didn't finish Lorgar, and he probably have killed Kurze by attacking him while he was facing Lorgar. Lorgar got lucky in my opinion

**Korcheski**

Another piece of fluff introduced in IA10, the Carcharodons are reputed to be a successor chapter to the the RG. However they are one of the cursed foundings (reportedly), but they do have the pure black eyes and lens like the Raven Guard.

**-Cypher-**

Kanluwen wrote:Then you're not doing it right.

"Heresy-era Raven Guard", and even nowadays Raven Guard have nothing in common with the Blood Angels.

Jump Pack troops are not a "signature" unit. They're not even a "semi-signature" unit of the Raven Guard.

They're more renowned for their aptitude as scouts and infiltrators.

The jump troops thing is a misnomer that's continually propagated because of the fact that Captain Shrike uses a personal bodyguard of jump troops in campaigns against Orks.

A bit take from the Lexicanum's article on the Raven Guard which both reinforces and goes against what Kanluwen has stated. Just providing relevant data.

The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.

**Alpharius**

I think that comes from the excellent old Index Astartes article - and really, making extensive use of jump packs definitely fits in with their preferred style of warfare - hit and run guerrilla warfare!

Plus on top of that, their home world is, basically, a Forge World...

**shrike**

-Cypher- wrote:A bit take from the Lexicanum's article on the Raven Guard which both reinforces and goes against what Kanluwen has stated. Just providing relevant data.

The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.

I'd just like to repeat that my raven guard aren't all reckless in the fluff, so it isn't an issue. The only BA-specific thing I'm using is more assault marines, stormravens, sanguard and sanguinary priests. No reckless units, no reckless warfare, lot of scouts.