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Yes, but a fat kid can try to punch while standing still to deliver about the same force as a skinny kid stepping into his punch. From what I saw the fat kid didn't know how to fight(no defensive posturing and slow reaction to the punches) while the skinny kid did(or at least put up a darn good show). Had the fat kid known how to throw a punch it would've ended differently.

Won't argue against Butterbean, but then again he knows how to throw a punch.

Neither kid knew what they were doing, both appeared to be imitating television.

or at least put up a darn good show

That show also said "I don't know anything about fighting".

Ahtman wrote:

or at least put up a darn good show

That show also said "I don't know anything about fighting".

Well, I would be far more concerned if any kid knew how to effectively fight at that age.

The way it seems it can only get worse from where they are right now, though. The fact that noone stood up to the little kid, but the tall boy immediatly advanced towards the bigger kid (kudos to the girl for intervening though) hints that he might be targeted as revenge. It did not seem to be a unique situation as well. Circle of violence and all.

Well, the little kid got what he deserved (maybe a bit excessive for my taste, but he obviously only did what came natural and did not know what he was doing) and there wasn´t much potential for deescalation in that situation.

Then again, maybe this incident will show the school and parents that the fecal matter hit the air circulation system and they´ll begin countermeasures against bullying. Doubtful, but possible.

Look, is there really a way to keep kids from fighting? My catholic high school tried to no avail. We had counselors and arbitration groups, but really if two kids want to go they are gonna go. There is always some place to fight, the most we ever had to do was leave the school grounds first.

I had four older brothers, I didn't need to be taught how to fight, but my father taught me anyway. Let them throw the first punch then tackle them, wrestle, elbows, knees. 99% of fights go to the ground. I don't know how many kids I took out who thought they were bad as boxers. You might take a hit or two going in, but wrestling and grappling is such a better skill set.

Neither of those kids knew how to fight.....unfortunately. Really, look closer, that skinny kid almost got his neck broken, it could have been much much worse!

I would have love to see him beat that other kid too.

Also, by the way. I think referring to him as fat kid, I think is kind of wrong. He's big, out of shape, overweight, yeah. But he doesn't look like he's 200 pounds of chewed bubblegum. He might be a hauss, but not what I think of when I think "fat kid". Unfortunately he will probably be known as fat kid forever. To me he looks more like the linemen I played football with then the lazy fat kids.

I'm certain he's overweight, but not enough to be labeled "fat kid" forever. I do live in America though.

I used to be the fat kid who would "Hulk out" on the guy picking on me. It worked as they avoided fights with me after I bashed them about a bit, trying to talk it out never seemed to work, I would be patient and they would spend weeks bullying me verbally and then escalate to physical as they thought I was all talk and no walk, then they discovered that they had been poking a sleeping dragon.

Andrew1975 wrote:
. To me he looks more like the linemen I played football with then the lazy fat kids.

They're fat kids, even the professionals.

fething funny as.

I'm stunned fatty got suspended as well, he showed surprising restraint! If he had any sense he would have started stamping on his head until he looked like he couldn't get up and then move down to the body for a bit.

That's what my dad taught me.

Ha! You can tell we're both from the Boro, Matty - I was going to post pretty much the exact same thing. Got to admire the kid for his restraint - a head-stamping was definitely in order for that little tit.

The bit I loved the most was the bit were the big kid kind of stops and looks at the skinny kid as he's leaving, like:

'Yeah? Yeah. We're done here.'

Chowderhead wrote:

dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.

If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".

'Self defence' has to be applied in a proportional manner. A couple of slaps not not warrant broken bones for instance. The little kid could have been seriously injured if his head had struck the concrete hard enough. As it was, injuries weren't serious. I was bullied in school and loathed some of the people involved but in retrospect I don't really think I'd want to have seen them seriously injured.

I think the people who should be worried are the school, because if these things are escalating because they don't deal with bullying properly and support victims then it's on them. They are encouraging people to defend themselves because it's the only valid option and kids aren't the best judge of what constitutes a measured response to being provoked.

Howard A Treesong wrote: I was bullied in school and loathed some of the people involved but in retrospect I don't really think I'd want to have seen them seriously injured..

Really? I think bullies are scum - they strip people of their humanity and force them to leave in fear, a kind of half-life. I'm fairly handy, and always have been, so consequently I never got bullied - but if I ever saw someone picking on someone else for no reason, I would hurt them. Even now.

I don't claim not to get some satisfaction from seeing a bully get their comeuppance but it needs to reflect the nature of the bullying.

For instance, I don't really want to see some kid's head cracked open in the playground for slapping another a few times just like I don't want to see a kid suddenly snapping and stabbing another with a knife or scissors because they are being taunted in art class.

Vimes wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

or at least put up a darn good show

That show also said "I don't know anything about fighting".

Well, I would be far more concerned if any kid knew how to effectively fight at that age.

The way it seems it can only get worse from where they are right now, though. The fact that noone stood up to the little kid, but the tall boy immediatly advanced towards the bigger kid (kudos to the girl for intervening though) hints that he might be targeted as revenge. It did not seem to be a unique situation as well. Circle of violence and all.

Well, the little kid got what he deserved (maybe a bit excessive for my taste, but he obviously only did what came natural and did not know what he was doing) and there wasn´t much potential for deescalation in that situation.

Then again, maybe this incident will show the school and parents that the fecal matter hit the air circulation system and they´ll begin countermeasures against bullying. Doubtful, but possible.

Yes if fatty fatty is smart he will imemediately catch the taller kid outside of school and hurt him fast. Thatsa the real bully. Do that and he won't be messed with for a long while.


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mattyrm wrote:fething funny as.

I'm stunned fatty got suspended as well, he showed surprising restraint! If he had any sense he would have started stamping on his head until he looked like he couldn't get up and then move down to the body for a bit.

That's what my dad taught me.

Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't claim not to get some satisfaction from seeing a bully get their comeuppance but it needs to reflect the nature of the bullying.

For instance, I don't really want to see some kid's head cracked open in the playground for slapping another a few times just like I don't want to see a kid suddenly snapping and stabbing another with a knife or scissors because they are being taunted in art class.

Fair enough, I guess that's where you and I differ. That said, it's important to keep a cool head in that sort of situation and to consider one's educational future - if you stab someone in school, that's you pretty much screwed. But if you can avoid being expelled, I'd say pretty much anything goes - I mean, we're talking about individuals who ruin people's lives, drive kids to kill themselves in some cases. They are inhuman filth in my eyes.

Wow, I sounded like 'you-know-who' there!


EXCREMENT!!!1!!!!!!

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:

dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.

If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".

'Self defence' has to be applied in a proportional manner. A couple of slaps not not warrant broken bones for instance. The little kid could have been seriously injured if his head had struck the concrete hard enough.

Self defense doesn't have to be proportional, it just has to be reasonable in light of the circumstances. Is it reasonable to bodyslam someone who punches you in the face? I think that it's not unreasonable. The only real limitation on self defense is that you can't escalate a fight. In this case, the skinny kid was obviously looking for a fight and didn't get what he expected.

On suing, the video is probably never going to be admissable, unless you can get the skinny kid to admit it's valid. Far too many evidenciary problems. But the fat kid would probably win on assumption of risk grounds. If you go looking for a fight, you can't sue (recover) when you find one.

biccat wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:

dogma wrote:If I had been the skinny kid's family, I would have also sued.

If you had watched the tape, you would have dropped the charges, due to a little known phenomenon called "Self Defense".

'Self defence' has to be applied in a proportional manner. A couple of slaps not not warrant broken bones for instance. The little kid could have been seriously injured if his head had struck the concrete hard enough.

Self defense doesn't have to be proportional, it just has to be reasonable in light of the circumstances.

A proportionate response to the provocation then, 'reasonable' is what a I meant, but reasonableness in law is a bit of a grey area. Obviously you can use more force than your attacker to defend yourself but you can't leap up and down on their head because they slapped you for instance. This sort of debate comes up all the time in the UK especially regarding burglaries because what is or isn't a 'reasonable' level of force is open to interpretation.

The whole idea that one kid is trying to sue another doesn't wash for me. I don't like the compensation culture but they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.

As for a body slam being a reasonable response, well it's easy to say that because there was no resulting serious injury, but that's more luck than judgement. It's just as well that the small kid got off light, because he could have had a serious head injury from being thrown on the ground, if he was in hospital with a bleed on the brain it wouldn't be something to laugh about and it probably wouldn't be considered reasonable by many. And the school would be in the gak.

Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.

Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.

Howard A Treesong wrote:if he was in hospital with a bleed on the brain it wouldn't be something to laugh about

Eh, I'd probably still laugh becuase the basic elements are the same. Dumbass starts a fight becuase he thinks he picked an easy target that won't fight back, and the target does, and does so in what any rational person would think was reasonable. He didn't stick the kids head in a car door and start slamming it or stomp on him when he was on the ground. He dropped him once and that was the end of it. If a guy pulls a knife and means to do you harm and you shove him and he trips and impales himself on something are you now to be charged with murder even though you were using reasonable force to defend yourself? Just becuase your reasonable response lead to unintended consequences should you be charged? Even if you were what jury do you think would convict?

The thing about self defence is that you have to use more force than the attacker or else you will not disable them from continuing to attack you.

Reasonable force means stopping once you are safe from the attack.

Ahtman wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.

Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.

***Disagree. Its not the school's fault, just like its not the duty of the police to protect the individual person.

Howard A Treesong wrote:if he was in hospital with a bleed on the brain it wouldn't be something to laugh about

Eh, I'd probably still laugh becuase the basic elements are the same. Dumbass starts a fight becuase he thinks he picked an easy target that won't fight back, and the target does, and does so in what any rational person would think was reasonable. He didn't stick the kids head in a car door and start slamming it or stomp on him when he was on the ground. He dropped him once and that was the end of it. If a guy pulls a knife and means to do you harm and you shove him and he trips and impales himself on something are you now to be charged with murder even though you were using reasonable force to defend yourself? Just becuase your reasonable response lead to unintended consequences should you be charged? Even if you were what jury do you think would convict?

Agreed. You start it and get your ass kick I'm pulling a Nelson and commencing operation Point and Laugh.
Or in the words of the immortal bard:

Frazzled wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.

Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.

***Disagree. Its not the school's fault, just like its not the duty of the police to protect the individual person.

I'm not saying the school is at fault, but that if anyone is to be sued it would be the school. The courts can decide fault. Also, the school probably has more money to siphon off.

The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.

Give the kid ten bucks then expel him from all public schools and give him a shovel with the note "congrats, since your parents are suing us, you get the exciting career choice option of ditchdigging. Life sucks but so do your parents."

Frazzled wrote:The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.

Well than you should have given the school more money so that it would have better security and personnel. You are paying for your stinginess now aren't you? We also don't know if this was a public school or a private school. You also know that it isn't that simple. Just becuase an institution has tax payer funding doen't mean it can't be sued. The government gets sued all the time by people that pay taxes into it.

I am solidly on the big kids side here, it doesn't matter how big/small you are if someone is tormenting you and has the arrogance to continue in front of everyone to big note himself he deserves rightly so to be put in his place, I'm guessing the big guy's not the most confident or violent person, but constant bullying will push people to the mental edge especially at that age, we're lucky he didn't do nothing and go home and commit suicide like so many other poor kids nowadays! it's a tough choice, do you retaliate and defend yourself? or do you fear reprisals and just cop the abuse? until you can't walk out your front door without wondering who else will abuse/punch/torment/degrade you? I don't condone the violence but you really can't blame him for that excellently executed body slam. lets just hope people leave him alone now.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.

Well than you should have given the school more money so that it would have better security and personnel. You are paying for your stinginess now aren't you? We also don't know if this was a public school or a private school. You also know that it isn't that simple. Just becuase an institution has tax payer funding doen't mean it can't be sued. The government gets sued all the time by people that pay taxes into it.

how would a security guard have helped? This occurred in the space of 30 seconds. you would have had to have a guard right there. Plusnowdays schools don't act except for calling in police, then little scumbag's parent's would sue or get on Fox and yerp about how thier little "accident" is being oppressed by the man.

better to give him a shovel and order that the parents be sterilized, for the good of the nation.

That kid sure knows some moves. You can see him waiting, judging when the time is right to attack

Frazzled wrote:Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.

That's a lot like what I told mine. When I told them to finish the fight, I always followed with something like, "Make no mistake about it. You WILL get suspended. You WILL get in trouble at school. That's it, though. There will be no trouble for you at home, as long as you didn't start it."

Eric

Frazzled wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: they'd be better off suing the school IMO for a failure in duty of care.

Three pages later we are back where I was at the beginning.

***Disagree. Its not the school's fault, just like its not the duty of the police to protect the individual person.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.

That's a lot like what I told mine. When I told them to finish the fight, I always followed with something like, "Make no mistake about it. You WILL get suspended. You WILL get in trouble at school. That's it, though. There will be no trouble for you at home, as long as you didn't start it."

Eric

Wow, its like we're brothers.

Hahaha oh wow, that rat thing got absolutely smashed.

(Just for context, the school this happened at is St Mary's in NSW, Australia. It's renowned for being filled to the brim with scumbag gaks.)

Frazzled wrote:The school has no money. That money comes from the taxpayer, which means me and you.

Putting aside the issue of legitimate possession, I don't care where my money comes from, I only care that it comes to me.

I would have no problem at all if the tax-payers were forced to give me 1 billion USD per anum, and I would fight politically in order to prevent that practice from being ended.


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Frazzled wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats normal in the US. He made the mistake of doing this in school. Having said that, as a parent I've told the kids don't start the fight but finish it. If he gets suspended he gets suspended, but he finished the fight.

That's a lot like what I told mine. When I told them to finish the fight, I always followed with something like, "Make no mistake about it. You WILL get suspended. You WILL get in trouble at school. That's it, though. There will be no trouble for you at home, as long as you didn't start it."

Eric

Wow, its like we're brothers.

That doesn't work quite as well in prep schools, but there are generally fewer bullies to be concerned about.